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Liberal Catfight! Progressive Media Critic Socks It to Josh Marshall for His Lack of Originality and His Devotion to Conventional Wisdom

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 Josh Micah Marshall is being lambasted by media critic Bob Somerby, who portrays him as one unoriginal hack with impaired analytical skills.

A little background: Marshall followed the last presidential debate aired on Friday, September 26th as it developed, that is, in "real time." During the course of this coverage, Marshall never noticed or noted any "condescension," contempt, or the much-discussed infrequency in Senator McCain's eye contact with Barack Obama.

Indeed, the "hacktacular hack", as Somerby tagged him, pronounced the debate a "draw" on Friday night; but after watching other pundits and "polls" on the debate, the TPM creator flip-flopped big time on a Saturday post (See TPM archive) and subscribed to the official story: McCain is condescending and mean and made insufficient eye contact with his opponent.

Joe Klein and "Atrios" similarly said nothing about this line of criticism in real life. Klein originally gave Obama a "narrow victory" whereas Atrios did not watch the debate at all; but of course, they belatedly ripped McCain on this behavior, echoing what others had to say.

One excerpt:

After Josh slept on it: Josh Marshall was also upset by McCain’s vile conduct–one he had a chance to learn that this was his cohort’s Official Approved Story. On Saturday afternoon, Josh reinvented his real-time reactions, just as Klein had done:

    MARSHALL (9/27/08): HAVING SLEPT ON IT

    In my initial reaction last night, I wrote that while I thought the debate was basically a draw, that amounted to a narrow win for Obama since foreign policy is supposed to be John McCain's forte. Now, after half a day, with more time to think about it and the benefit of seeing initial polling data and surveying other people's reactions, I'm only confirmed in that view.

    In fact, I think it was a much bigger win for Obama than I was ready to figure last night. And there’s two basic reasons.

Huh! After “seeing initial polling data and surveying other people's reactions,” Josh had rethought his outlook too. He gave “two basic reason” for this. His first reason didn’t really make sense, as you can see from reading his piece. But in his second “basic reason,” he, like Klein, suddenly found himself very upset by McCain’s rude conduct:

    MARSHALL (9/27/08): Whether it was contempt or condescension or some sort of fear or inability to–in the most literal senseRoll it all together and Obama just seemed like a bigger person than McCain. And in a race in which the issue agenda and party identification already work strongly in Obama's favor, that's an advantage that is very hard for McCain to give up.

Just like Klein, Josh now found himself upset by McCain’s contempt or condescension–the contempt or condescension which had made McCain look small and angry. But how weird! In real time, Josh live-blogged the entire debate–and he completely forgot to mention these outrages as they were actually happening! His first mention of this troubling phenomenon came late in the debate, in response to an e-mail. This is what he wrote. Sorry–Josh’s archives have been down, so we can’t seem to recover a link:

    MARSHALL (9/26/08): 10:26 PM. I haven't focused on this myself. But a number of readers are writing in to say that McCain has not looked at or made eye contact with Sen. Obama once this evening. Have you seen that?

“I haven't focused on this myself,” he reported. It isn’t clear that he’d even noticed. But so what? By the next day, Josh was very upset about this vile misconduct. It made McCain look small and angry, he wrote, long after the fact. –face Obama, it made McCain look small and angry. I apologize that I can't link to them because I don't remember who wrote it. But as someone wrote after the debate, for that kind of attitude to have “worked” for McCain, Obama needed to come off as completely ignorant and unprepared. And I don't think even his harshest critics believe that is what happened.

In addition, Somerby contends that this is a pattern, not an isolated incident. During the October 30, 2007 debate, Marshall said nothing about Hillary Clinton's much criticized response to the driver-licenses-to-illegals question on real time; but once the narrative began to emerge, he fell in line with the consensus.

We’re seeing a pattern: As you may recall, Josh did much the same thing after the crucial October 30 Democratic debate. Midway through, he was gushing about Hillary Clinton’s performance. (“Here's the thing with Hillary. Not always inspiring answers. But, man, she never flubs an answer. Simply unflappable. Like a machine. And I mean that as a compliment.”) By 11:37 PM, he had started to get mildly in line with emerging clatter about her deeply troubling “driver’s license” answer. By the next day, though, he had begun to scramble. “It got a lot rougher [for Clinton] toward the end,” he wrote–although he hadn’t said a word about this problem in his live-blogging. “She does seem to be taking it [her position on the driver’s license matter] to an almost absurd length,” he now wrote–although he said nothing about her answer in real time. See THE DAILY HOWLER, 10/31/07, with links to Josh’s posts.

Link: http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh092908.shtml


Comments (22)

So, um, Andrew -- can I call you Andy? -- your point is, um.....exactly what?

Are you for Josh? Or against him?

Are you upset with him for live-blogging and yet not picking up on nuances until the day after, or are you with him for the fact that he live-blogged these debates and then added to his observations a day later?

What exactly is your point?

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LisB, the bar you set for Marshall is sensationally low.

In the next debate, will you sit here reading what he has to say knowing that he will likely just parrot what the Chris Matthews and Gene Robinsons of the world have to say? You might as well ask Marshall who he borrows his ideas from and watch THEIR initial impressions.

Do you want a follower or a leader?

The argument of condescension is weakened by the fact that Marshall did not even notice. Joe Klein did not notice either.

And note how now McCain's supposed condescension was "nuanced". You are forced to go into the subliminal again, not having a strong case.
His "condescension" was so hard to see that the great Marshall was unable to discern it.

It's like those ads that are supposed to be racist because of subliminal cues, we are told by pundits who ignore that subliminal messaging has proven to be ineffectual in advertising.

And all of this makes you think: Is Marshall being honest? Or did he simply wish to join the fun in order to hurt the opponent of his favorite candidate?

This is reminiscent of the stooges who failed to notice Al Gore's "sighs" prior to being played incessantly on a loop on national TV for days.

You must remember how that turned out: "Al Gore is not comfortable on his own skin, and is a condescending robot because he sighed!."

I believe Marshall would do or say anything he does not believe in order to help his candidate win.

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I believe Marshall would do or say anything he does not believe in order to help his candidate win.
---------------------------------------------------

More often than not people just convince themselves they see and believe what other people see and believe. Especially if the other people are colleagues we respect or people we depend on pleasing for our economic well being. No one wants to become Don Quixote.

I remember all too well sitting through Al Gore's sighs. And I remember all too well not having a place to vent about it, nor POST about it, because I didn't have Josh's site to come home to.

If you don't like Josh, get off his freakin' pot and post elsewhere.

Catfight? Wouldn't that require two parties?

All I see is a guy who's trying to carve a niche for himself as a TPM/Josh Marshall critic. I'm sure there's a huge market for that, so power to him.

But all I'll point out about his criticisms is this: Have you ever wanted to see a movie a 2nd or 3rd time after that first viewing, because you just know that there were some things you missed or didn't quite understand? Debates are pretty complex, nuanced and LONG exchanges that require additional review after the live event to get some perspective (and fact checking) on what really went down.

Dude needs to chill.

I think that if you are going to blog live, and you are going to do more than summarize, you need to be really on point. Otherwise, it just becomes a gimmick. The task of providing real-time analysis that is good is very, very difficult and may be difficult enough to be avoided for just the reasons that are discussed.

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Atrios resopnded to Somerby in a nasty way. It's a catfight. Remember that I made reference to Klein, Atrios and Marshall.

Anyway, Bob Somerby trying to carve a niche for himself? Lol that gentleman's niche was carved before you first learned that Marshall existed. And he trashes McCain and Republican-loving pundits on a daily basis, by the way. Why don't you accuse him on trying to "carve a niche" on trashing the corporate media?

And note how you use the word used often by the full-of-shits: "nuanced". The other is "subliminal", when calling an ad racist without evidence.

Wanna say that McCain is gay? It's nuanced! You might not see it because it's nuanced! So nuanced that Marshall, Klein and Atrios cannot see it in real-time.

Puhlease. Leave your fanatism aside for one second.

Whatev. If you all wanna dump on the hand that feeds you and provides you with a litter box, you can at least contribute some money to the website, if nothing else.

"Leave your fanaticism aside for a second."????

Ha.

Haha.

Hahaha.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Hey, kettle, there's a pot that wants to talk to you.

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Let me refute the claim that Marshall missed this 'nuance' of the eye contact.

James Fallows of The Atlantic said (on Saturday, of course) that McCain's lack of eye contact had been "shockingly rude."

"Shockingly rude" does not sound like nuance to me. There's no subtlety there.

How could one of the top liberal bloggers missed such shocking behavior?

http://jamesfallows.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/09/on_strategy_and_tactics.php

Have you made YOUR contribution today?

The debate wasn't a draw. On technical merit, I think it goes to McCain. McCain slammed key points and looked very good. I don't subscribe to the view that a liberal should "do their part" by pretending that Barack was the winner.

But, Josh saying it was a draw sounds pretty good to me.

Ah, but...this was supposed to be McCain's big headliner debate. All about foreign relations and all that jazz. The one debate where McCain was supposed to NAIL it. To the wall.

And instead McCain couldn't say Mahmoud Ahmihdinajhad's name any better than I can spell it right now.

And he still thinks Obama is "naive" and, (sigh), "just doesn't understand", because he thinks we can't talk with people.

If McCain wants to live like a butterfly in a jar, like Bush has for the past 7 to 8 years, well that's all fine and dandy. Let him live in a jar. But Obama and many others know we have to start policy somewhere, somehow, sometime.

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Josh Marshall is no Bob Somerby.

If you don't like Josh, get off his freakin' pot and post elsewhere.

I do not propose that I speak for Josh, but nothing he has ever posted on this site would indicate that he would subscribe to this point of view.

I stopped reading the Daily Howler about five years ago. He's very repetitive.

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This is true, he does tend to repeat his points incessantly, over time and across topics.
My first grade teacher did the same thing until everyone in the class demonstrated that they both understood the concepts, AND remembered them later.

Makes me wonder if Somerby's motivation is similar.

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Somerby debunks myth after myth every day. Different, new myths created by the mainstream (liberal and right-wing) media.

You say he's repetitive because your feelings are hurt after your idol Josh Marshall was exposed as a phony.

No, I wasn't aware of Somerby saying anything about JMM, I simply haven't read the Daily Howler for a long time. Part of that was because of his tone, his repetitiveness, etc. and part was from hearing him cut off a caller on a local radio talk show. I forget the specifics, but I came away less inclined to read his site.

And I don't idolize Josh Marshall.

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Hey, you kids leave Josh alone! And while you're at it, get off my lawn!

I didn't think the debate was a draw, though McCain did better than I expected, Obama had the better sound bites ("You were wrong when you...You were wrong when you..." etc.) And I didn't notice McCain not making eye contact, as I watched on CNN, which didn't use a split screen and which had me riveted on those "instant response" tracking lines at the bottom of the screen (which indicated a more consistent positive response among independents when Obama was speaking).

Josh was just being cautious. He is that way.

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Bob feels the need to skewer everyone, except Gore and Hillary. Even when he has a point, it's delivered in such an 'over-the-top' way that it gets dismissed as the ranting of old man yelling at trespassers.

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