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Inciting a riot
In reference to the latest use of whipping up crowds by McCain and Palin, I have a question for all the legal eagles out there: At what point would what they're saying be inciting violence and no longer be protected speech?
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Comments (20)
Just like the "spontaneous" "bourgeois riot" during the ballot counting in Florida.
Organized mob violence. Totalitarian through and through.
October 7, 2008 1:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
This is my question
October 7, 2008 2:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
I heard on the news that the FBI was looking into the Florida rally because they "take all threats seriously." I would hope that they have a little chat with McCain/Palin and warn them that if violence breaks out at one of their rallies, they can be held responsible according to local and federal law. It all depends on the municipality and what acts they consider unlawful.
October 7, 2008 11:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
Gee, I have the same question about Obama's thug tactics, his free speech suppression squad in Missouri, his demands that his supporters "get in people's faces".
I am very afraid of the Obamaniacs; they are irrational and frightening. I don't have any campaign stickers or info on my car, but I do have a military decal. My car has been keyed, the mirrors smashed, the tires slashed and vile, foul languages left on my vehicle by Obama supporters.
The Obama people are thugs, and have inspired ME for the first time ever to get out there, door knock and tell MY story about just how scary Obama and his supporters are...and people are listening.
October 8, 2008 12:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
And HOW pray tell do you know it was Obama supporters that keyed your car or did the other things?
October 8, 2008 1:11 AM | Reply | Permalink
..probably an unstable ex-girlfriend.
October 8, 2008 1:23 AM | Reply | Permalink
Moonpie, you present NO EVIDENCE for your shit. And you post it at every opportunity. What you are is a lying racist cow pie who doesn't know the difference between shit and ass.
You are ass, and your assertions are SHIT.
October 8, 2008 2:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
I know of not one single Obama supporter that would 'get in your face' or act violently toward anyone for any reason. I think you may be projecting things on to people who support Barack Obama because you don't like him. That's your right and your decision but other than an angry rant about something McCain or Palin said or did... I never see hatred or violence being expressed by anyone I am associated with that supports Obama. I trust that if anyone tried to incite violence against Senator McCain or Governor Palin that Senator Obama would comdemn it!
October 8, 2008 2:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
Moonpie, it's time you "show"ed us what all the fuss is there in Missouri, perhaps some MSM evidence of your claims...
I've been to several campaign events here in PA, and the Obama people have always been courteous, even cheerful, even in the face of opposition.
BTW, my 13yo son is going to have his first night of campaign volunteering thursday...my wife and I wouldn't do that unless we felt safe. (We're both prohibited via the Hatch Act.)
October 8, 2008 8:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
You sound irrational and frightening.
October 8, 2008 8:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
Moonpie, who incited cries of "Kill him!" at a political rally? Certainly not Obama, so where do you come off saying Obama loyalists are "thugs"? Palin is acting like a terrorist, inciting political assassination. Take a step back and try to defend that example of "thugism".
October 8, 2008 11:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
How does one determine when speech goes over the line? One reads the law, including case decisions, both Federal and local jurisdictions.
October 8, 2008 2:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
I want to know this as well. Any knowledgeable lawyers here?
I believe this stuff is VERY dangerous when done at such a high level and could very well result even in assassination. I think McCain and (especially) Palin have already gone way too far with this and should be considered being arrested.
I also wonder how much would Palin pay for one dead Obama's foot.
October 8, 2008 2:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
It is surely "conduct unbecoming." He's manifestly "unfit for duty."
October 8, 2008 9:29 AM | Reply | Permalink
Advocacy of hate is protected
"except where such advocacy is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action. 2 As we [395 U.S. 444, 448] said in Noto v. United States, 367 U.S. 290, 297 -298 (1961), "the mere abstract teaching . . . of the moral propriety or even moral necessity for a resort to force and violence, is not the same as preparing a group for violent action and steeling it to such action." See also Herndon v. Lowry, 301 U.S. 242, 259 -261 (1937); Bond v. Floyd, 385 U.S. 116, 134 (1966). A statute which fails to draw this distinction impermissibly intrudes upon the freedoms guaranteed by the First and Fourteenth Amendments. It sweeps within its condemnation speech which our Constitution has immunized from governmental control.
Brandenburg v. Ohio [get yer own cite].
Bottom line: You can preach hate all you want, but the circumstances have to be such that you (a) direct violence (that demonstates intent), which Palin et al have not done, and (b) that violence is imminent. So if you're in front of an angry mob that you've whipped up on fears of racism, that hate speech is protected. If, however, you direct that angry mob to kill an innocent passer-by, you're on the hook. And if some schmuck leaves your rally and commits violence based on what you said, you are generally off the hook because you did not advocate "imminent" lawless action.
Footnote: That's not to say that such speech is not reprehensible: it is, and too often people who slime others on the air throw up their "First Amendment rights" as some kind of defense. (This seems to be a favorite tactic of right wing talk show hosts, but it's not limited to them). That is complete and utter bullshit. The First Amendment protects you from the government interfering with your speech rights--it does not prevent other people from thinking that you're a jackass and acting on that opinion.
Hope that helps, and is in English.
October 8, 2008 10:29 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yea, rumpole is correct. Minus a clear directive to commit violence, Palin/McCain's speeches are absolutely protected under the First Amendment. Even if Palin, for example, finished a speech by yelling "finish off the traitors once and for all!" or "wipe 'em out" or something similar, I suspect courts would be unwilling to infer that she was calling for violence. I won't go into the whole reasoning behind it here, but I believe the law is exactly as it should be. Although reprehensible and possibly increasing the likelihood of violence in the future, this type of speech should be legally protected. Hatred is an ugly emotion, and I am confident that outbursts of "terrorist" and "kill him" will ensure that the larger ideas behind the candidates' incitements will fail in the marketplace of ideas.
October 8, 2008 11:12 AM | Reply | Permalink
Aren't there special rules in play, when you are threatening a major political figure?
For example, if Palin led her supporters in chants of "kill Obama", would this not cause the Secret Service to shut the rally down?
October 8, 2008 12:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Threats against the -president's- life are not constitutionally protected--they are an exception to the general rule. (don't know if that applies to candidates or legislators, but I doubt it).
"Public figures" generally don't receive special treatment.
October 8, 2008 12:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
The imminence requirement that rumpole mentioned above would probably be the issue in such a case. Of course, a candidate personally and specifically calling for an opponent's death is very different from what we've seen recently. Although there is a case to be made for criminal charges in your example, I think a conviction would only be guaranteed if Obama was in the same city or neighborhood as the Palin rally. As far as I know there aren't any precedents for many of the possible versions of this hypothetical--such as a case in which everyone at the rally had a loaded gun or the crowd was full of felons (obviously extreme examples)--so certain facts could alter the outcome. I'm not positive, but I think rumpole is right that the "threats against the president" rule doesn't apply to any other public officials.
October 8, 2008 1:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Just as a slightly unrelated example of why such a broad free speech guarantee is necessary, note that things like this occur despite that level of leniency:
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/10/quote-for-the-4.html
October 8, 2008 1:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
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