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On Recommending Crappy Diaries
A reader post linking to the allegations by the virtually unknown "LA Progressive", whose circulation is so low that I can't even find the data in google, that Sarah Palin once said of Obama and Hillary "So Sambo beat the bitch," and that she refers to Alaskans as "Artic Arabs" and "f**ing monkeys" rests on the following sourcing:
*Allegation: Palin said of Obama and Clinton: "Sambo beat the bitch."
Place of occurrence: "a restaurant" (no name provided).
Source: A waitress whose name is said to be "Lucille", who feels compelled to hide her last name.
*Allegation: She calls Alaskans "Artic Arabs"
Source: "People who know her."
*Allegation: She refers to Alaskans as "f**ing Eskimos."
Source: "A number of Alaskans interviewed for this article."
*Allegation: She is vindictive and mean.
Source: "Alaskans interviewed for this article"
Note that the only named source is the one who makes an credible allegation, specifically the one accusing her of outsting a librarian and having her opponents in her "list of enemies." The gist of this one allegation is known from respectable newspapers and media outlets to be true.
But the rest of the allegations are so thinly sourced that it's impossible not to conclude they're garbage.
The criteria to recommend diaries here seems to be: "If it makes you hope the allegations are true because they would hurt a rival, recommend it!"
Would you recommend an entry linking to a guy named "Peter" who claims Obama once admitted to being a Muslim?
Aren't we better than that?
Comments (49)
Consider the idea that it's possible that that can not be the case any longer. You are perhaps forgetting something rather important, that
Drag into that equation that the management's editorial content is becoming ever more inflammatory and tabloidyp; methinks not unrelated.
Many have checked out the site only recently, or returned after checking it out long ago, and have liked what they see, the current content pleases them. They get votes to recommend. Their numbers are legion.
P.S. Danger, danger, warning, warning: it's possible they call you a poopypants if you keep being so publicly snooty about not liking what they are writing and recommending. They will comment on your threads, and you will be tempted to joust with them. You will come away bummed out. Lowest common denominator rules here with this software system and the current editorial bent, there is no getting around that.
September 6, 2008 2:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
P.S. Dejas vus allover again:
Better Reader Posts
By Genghis - May 1, 2008, 10:45PM
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/05/better-reader-posts.php
TPM Café: Now Part of the Problem
By Dan K - May 23, 2008, 2:24AM
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/05/tpm-cafe-now-part-of-the-probl.php
Seriously folks, you can stop writing about how angry Hillary makes you now.
By Andrew Golis - May 28, 2008, 3:29PM
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/05/seriously-folks-you-can-stop-w.php
The software is designed to let the mob of the moment rule. The start of mob of the moment is affected by management editorial content, but it can eventually overtake management control pretty easily.
Josh Marshall's choice of software, and the reasons he gave for that on some of Tom Wright's old complaint threads, especially that he thought that the Recommended List system would make the cream rise to the top, really were an eye opener for me in the end about his own judgment of how media works.
Notice that he gave up on the idea of assigning an intern to do daily "Diary Rescue" of Reader posts of quality, which was tried for a couple of weeks some time back. They even had a contest thread to name the diary rescue column. It didn't last long. I think that's very telling.
September 6, 2008 3:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
His interns aren't smart enough to rescue the right diaries.
What I think Josh should do is turn his famous TPM webcam on his staff meetings so we can hear them discuss how they're going to play the news.
Can you imagine that?
September 6, 2008 11:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes I can imagine. But I think I'll go with the "discretion being the better part of valor" thing and keep my imaginings to myself. :-)
September 7, 2008 1:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, not entirely sure I want to see how the sausage is made. We could certainly use the blog rescues though. Don't know why they dropped that (summer interns headed back to school and Golis doesn't want to do it?)
The sad conclusion I've come to is that as far as Josh is concerned, the Cafe is the least important part of the TPMpire.
September 7, 2008 10:41 AM | Reply | Permalink
That makes sense. Thanks.
September 6, 2008 2:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks Andrew.
September 6, 2008 2:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree.
September 6, 2008 3:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't think it's about "crappy diaries" getting recommended. Let's face there will always be someone who has written something we think is crappy or that gets recommended time after time when our carefully written masterpieces fall by the wayside.
You're (plural) peeved at the thinly sourced "Sambo" story, yet jumped all over other stories -- well sourced, but taken way out of context -- in the past.
Perhaps the problem is that instead of "recommending" articles they should just stand on their own merit, and let it be the number of comments generated that determines how well read your articles are. Perhaps it's time to get rid of the Rec List and have no list at all. If people like what you write, they'll find you and tell.
It's an article measure that has nothing to do with quality, timing and the popularity of a given subject.
If the Sambo tale gets better sourcing, who knows, we can all say we read it here, early in its cycle.
September 6, 2008 4:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
Seriously? No. We're not better than that.
In fact, the same diary was posted twice by the same blogger, A. Boyer, and BOTH posts are currently on the Recommended List:
LA Paper: Palin said "Sambo beat the Bitch" (42 recs) and Palin: "So Sambo beat the Bitch" (24 recs). 66 total recs.
Have you ever gotten 66 recs, Andrew? I didn't think so.
September 6, 2008 4:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Pot, kettle, black.
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/08/why-are-black-oped-columnists.php
September 6, 2008 5:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Final score: Ad... 1, Andrew... Nil.
And Andrew is eliminated from further play.
September 7, 2008 12:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
In my diary about black columnists, I cited names (Herbert, etc.) unlike the unnamed sources in the diary in question.
Score: Quinn 0, Andrew 1, Ad 0.
You take Ad's side because you want the flimsy allegations to be true, but can't prove'em.
September 7, 2008 11:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
From YOUR post, that Ad linked to:
"When we see the picture of a black columnist next to a political op-ed column in our major newspapers, we already know, without reading the first word, that it will be a pro-Obama piece.... Can black columnists be trusted to cover this pre-election cycle? I certainly do not think so, because they feel extremely attached to Barack Obama, who if elected would become the first African American president in history."
Keep diggin' dude.
September 7, 2008 12:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
Go ahead, pick the parts of my diary where I named NAMES. Not just cherry-picking other parts. By the way, that has no effect on the validity of the diary we are discussing today, even if you were right, (you aren't).
September 7, 2008 5:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
Go ahead, pick the parts of my diary where I named NAMES. Not just cherry-picking other parts. By the way, that has no effect on the validity of the diary we are discussing today, even if you were right, (you aren't).
September 7, 2008 5:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
Andrew, I just read your diary about black columnists.
Crappy Diaries, eh? Should we nominate you to be the judge?
September 6, 2008 6:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
We are all judges. Go ahead, what is your judgment about the diary that uses "Lucille" as its main source?
September 7, 2008 11:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
What kind of whiny shit is this? I clicked on one of your diaries last night, saw no comments. Perhaps that's because it was more RNC vitriol. But whining about nobody paying you any attention? You sound like McCain.
September 6, 2008 6:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, this one has a lot of comments, which by your logic means it's a great diary. Thanks for the compliment.
September 7, 2008 11:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
Like this one?
September 6, 2008 7:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
I've often wondered why my excellent posts languish and die without recommendtions while the trashy posts of less talented writers receive more than their share of recommendations. I think it's because I'm superior to the readership here at TPM.
Since I once did a tabloid article about Martians tying an Army officer up and making him watch them have group sex with his wife, I figure what goes around comes around.
What did you think the Obamanauts would recommend? One of your blogs? Oh. They do? I didn't know that.
September 6, 2008 8:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ha! Billy. ;-)
September 6, 2008 9:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
More on the Martian thing.
September 6, 2008 11:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
I always rec Billy Glad's, Desidero's, Lalo's and gotalife's posts. Always, even when I disagree, specially when I disagree. Their opposing view has value, as far as I'm concerned. I generally don't comment on their threads because I don't like being called "troll," [even though my fav "troll," gotalife, posts on their threads sometimes... ;)]
However, Andrew Perez's posts? Never rec his stuff, e-fing ever. They are trash.
September 6, 2008 10:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
If anybody calls you a troll on one of my threads, I'll run their asses off. :)
September 6, 2008 11:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
Fargin elitists
September 6, 2008 10:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
I can never figure out if you're drunk, Irish or British. Not that it matters.
September 6, 2008 11:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wikipedia shows the "Fargin Elitists" to be a small group of roughly a dozen Irish writers & intellectuals (Yeats was an early member), begun in early 1880's, but dissolved rapidly following the events of 1916. Members of the (largely aristocratic) group were steeped in Swedenborgian theology/philosophy, with the term "Fargin" (an original coinage by Swedenborg) apparently a key element in their esoteric beliefs. "Fargin Elitists" was used as a term of abuse by members of the working class who - following the events of 1916 - remained embittered at the lack of support of these intellectuals. In early 1917, a small mob entered a meeting of the "elitists," causing considerable damage, frightening the Elitists severely & leading to their dissolution soon thereafter. The mob were known locally as "Trolls" - not the only such group to carry that name during those years - and a name which was, obviously, used more widely in Ireland as well as across Europe.
Then again, I may just be drinking heavily after seeing Andrew Perez got 18 Rec's for... an attack on crappy diaries.
September 7, 2008 1:50 AM | Reply | Permalink
blarney! quality, elite blarney, often inspired by drink! :-)
And ironic at that--can be argued that there's no culture with more elite taste for the readin' and writin' fruits of language than the Irish; they even invent words like "blarney". Only the Russians can compete.
Hey, speaking of Swendenborg, I just learned a couple of days ago that Johnny Appleseed was actually a heavy duty Swedenborgian missionary--sermons and literature came with the seeds. I suspect that they have been slurred with an elite/effete image only because so many famous 19th-century "progressive" elite peeps were intrigued by Emmanuel's shtick.
September 7, 2008 2:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
AA... would you have a source for that? Odd request, but my old man was an uneducated apple farmer... who loved Swedenborg.
See? Who SAYS heavy drinking is unproductive!
September 7, 2008 3:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
Quinn,
Well, I see that there is some stuff here
http://swedenborg.org/jappleseed/religion.html
and here
http://swedenborg.org/jappleseed/history.html
But I got it from reading a copy of this while doing some research:
"Johnny Appleseed: A Pioneer Hero", Harper's Magazine, LXIV, November 1871 (no author.)
which has more interesting stuff on that, including quotes from people who met him,
if you can get it at the library or pay for access to the archive on Harper's Magazine website.
September 7, 2008 3:50 AM | Reply | Permalink
So I'm down to the redundant pair.
September 7, 2008 8:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yup, yup.
September 7, 2008 1:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
You betcha. Loud and proud. There's far too many democratic (small d) interactive blogs, nothing for us elitists besides that bunch of neurotics at Crooked Timber. "The people" eventually take them over every single time, or the owners give up figuring out to do it and shut em down. Mho, Josh Marshall actually ripped off the original donors for the startup of TPMCafe, they thought they were funding an alternative to the noise of DKos, sorta like a PBS alternative to an NBC. Surprise surprise, we're going mass market as soon as we can....delusions of being able to influence the political zeitgeist, I suspect is no small part of it...so it goes...if I really, really cared, I could start my own...just whining :-)
September 7, 2008 1:17 AM | Reply | Permalink
Funny that, since I think a lot of the new posters are from Dkos spreading the nonsense posted there here.
September 7, 2008 5:24 AM | Reply | Permalink
Bingo. Those PBS days are long gone, artappraiser.
September 7, 2008 11:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
I didn't think tpmcafe could sink any lower than it did during the primaries, but I was wrong. Its turned into a freeper site discussing rumors at about the same level as the Sinclair allegations.
"half the people had turned into squealing pigs
that the other half were cooking" Nick Cave
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MajmI5j7Bs
September 7, 2008 1:12 AM | Reply | Permalink
Great quote.
Note that the new posters keep pouring in, too, even with the server problems. Once they move the server, suspect it's going to be a flood until November.
If they follow through with the promises of tracking functions (I am highly skeptical that will be as soon as they suggest, just judging by the fact that such promises have never been kept here anywhere near on time), that will at least allow sub-audiences to develop better. And most of the election junkies will be gone. The future lies on what content they decide to put out and what kind of people that draws....
What I'm saying is: whatever happens to it right now, another change is really only 2 months away, the audience will change, it's guaranteed.
September 7, 2008 1:25 AM | Reply | Permalink
I don't know what it is but there's definitely something going on upstairs.Dig, Lazarous, Dig!!!
September 7, 2008 2:04 AM | Reply | Permalink
Get a clue, complainers!
Have you not caught up with the new media yet? The commenters on a site are participants in today's world of user-generated content. But they do not reflect the opinions of the site owner. Blaming TPM for what commenters or reader bloggers say is ridiculous. Unless, of course, you are against this kind of media and you want to shut it down. Or, ask Seratonin Palin to fire some people.
September 7, 2008 2:54 AM | Reply | Permalink
The last comment on this site by the once very prolific and active member "cscs,"
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/profile/cscs
(whose posts were featured more than a few times on the front page of TPMCafe, and, I believe, more than once on the front page of TPM) was:
was a reply to Genghis' April 8 post titled
Genghis replied to cscs' comment as follows:
:-)
September 7, 2008 3:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
I think Billy actually coined the word "sucks."
Or maybe it was Bob Bob. I can never keep them straight.
September 7, 2008 3:24 AM | Reply | Permalink
I think the real reason good bloggers leave is that the recommend system that makes their posts visible over a 24-hour period doesn't tell them what they really want to know and care about, i.e., how many people are reading their blog.
Unique page views would be a meaningful measure. It would keep the most read blogs up front and let the bloggers know if anyone is reading them.
As it is, bloggers are either blogging for a small group, or blogging in the belief that the few recommends and comments represent just part of their readership.
September 7, 2008 8:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
Instead of a "Recommend" system, how about a "Most Popular" system, that displays the posts that have the most views. I know that is not totally satisfactory. Some would say, the "most popular" system multiplies itself because people keep clicking on those displayed stories, making them eternally "most popular".
Is there a way to have a module that shows "the most read" bloggers? This would reward the most skilled and responsible bloggers, I would think.
I am still new here, but I don't know if there is a system for cataloging my favorite bloggers, other than "Save to Desktop"
September 7, 2008 10:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
Or....
Why not use a Rating system instead of Recommend? (one star-five stars). That way people can disapprove as well as approve, and a more fair listing of blogs would show on the "Top Rated" list.
September 7, 2008 10:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
We are all judges. Go ahead, what is your judgment about the diary that uses "Lucille" as its main source?
September 7, 2008 11:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
We are all judges. Go ahead, what is your judgment about the diary that uses "Lucille" as its main source?
If I had a 5-star system, I would give it one star.
By the way, thanks for asking me for my recommendation on the above question.
As far as I'm concerned, if we Americans don't deserve to get media interviews from Palin, let the "Lucilles" report all they want.
September 7, 2008 12:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Lucille is not a reporter. She's a source.
September 7, 2008 5:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
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