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When We Came Back to TPM Cafe We Discovered All Hell Had Broken Loose
Fellow esteemed TPM poster Quinn Esq and I recently had an exchange on another blog thread here whereupon we discussed having taken a break from TPM and returning to find, to our great dismay, a rehashing of old hostilities between supporters of Obama and Clinton during the primary campaigns.
It's Quinn's contention, and I agree, that Obama's campaign (and his supporters) need to do the bulk of the work in getting Senator Clinton's supporters energized and on board for the Democratic Party's ticket this fall.
While I can't match Quinn's intelligent insight on this subject, I do have this to offer (taken from the thread I referenced above), for what it's worth:
I've tuned out from political chatter over the last few weeks, and I was a little
shocked that folks seem to be picking at the Clinton-Obama feud scab --
but then I quickly decided this was mostly stirred up and over-blown by
the punditry in order to make the Democratic Convention more exciting. Sigh. It's depressing to see so many intelligent people taking the bait, too.Nonetheless, I do think the Obama campaign will use the convention
(as well as take some additional steps) to ensure that Clinton's
supporters are enthusiastic about the Democratic Party's ticket.When I try to employ some empathy with Hillary's supporters, I
imagine how terribly disappointed they might feel, and also how
resentful they might be if they felt their support for the Democratic
ticket were considered "automatic" and could be taken for granted.
Ouch! It certainly would make me feel pissed off. I might not go so far
as to vote for McCain out of spite, but I definitely could see
how I might feel resentful, unappreciated, then depressed, and then
apathetic. And then I might not bother to vote at all.That's something we can't afford! So Hillary's supporters need to know that we don't take their votes for granted, we don't take Hillary Clinton for granted, and we know that we need their enthusiasm to be successful in November.
What's so hard about that? Nothing. So let's make sure we articulate that.
Comments (103)
Rec'd. Nice to see everyone trying to counter all of this weird infighting. Another good one here:
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/08/join-or-die.php
August 25, 2008 9:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
And here (I'm so modest):
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/08/stop-helping-the-republicans.php
August 25, 2008 9:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Just read your post. Excellent.
It's dismaying, isn't it? I truly think following cable news and talking heads makes otherwise intelligent people incapable of clear thought. They really do get inside our heads and screw with us. I wish it weren't so, but apparently it's true.
August 25, 2008 9:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks Laura, and agreed -- I'd like to see some more discipline out of our surrogates out there, but I think honestly that Clinton and Obama have still been negotiating the details on everything. I think we'll see it worked out in the next few days and maybe we'll finally turn the corner on all of this stuff.
August 25, 2008 10:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
And here:
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/08/okay-fess-up-and-ill-play-nice.php
August 25, 2008 9:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah. I hopped on Desi's train, too.
Unrelated question: Who is that in your avatar?? I can't figure it out. But for some reason, it always makes me think of Richard Simmons! Sorry! I can't explain that. Wonder what that says about me if we were to apply a Rorschach analysis??
August 25, 2008 10:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
My favorite TV show when I was in 3rd or 4th grade? Known for blonde afros, nonsensical back-stories, and horrible special effects:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0081871/
August 25, 2008 10:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh! Yeah, I'm too damn old to recognize that character, I'm afraid!
Now, if you'd picked a character from one of Sid and Marty Krofft's TV shows from the 60s and 70s, I totally would've gotten it.
August 25, 2008 11:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
Laura, Thank you for a dose of sanity. I was against the nomination of Hillary from the start and was one of the few who was angered and dismayed by the choice of the career politician Biden - he stood for the worse of the Democratic Party for the past decade and contradicts Obama's core message.
However, the slightest (*valid*) criticism of Biden brought about an outpouring of scorn, insults, ad hominems and choruses of "PUMA!PUMA!PUMA!" from the sheep. I was told to leave the site on several occasions. This is mob frenzy at its worst, when debate, discourse, reason and truth are no longer allowed to prevail.
They're probably reading "Biden's cozy ties to the Banks" and sending poison letters to David Broder right now.
I voted for Obama *not* for what he is but for what he promises to bring. My vote isn't carte blanche - I expect him to deliver on his promise. I intend to hold every politician's foot, Dem or Rep, to the fire. It is truly sad to see the same wingnut dynamic at work here - you are not *allowed* to think critically but to fall in line. Any dissent and you're ostracized as an enemy, a troll. Do they really think this mafia behavior would convince the voters out there? I have genuine questions, just as they have, and they're not going to be afraid to ASK them. The TPM blogs may be policed by the Don't-You-Dare-Question-Ignore-the-Polls crowd but ultimately, it's what the vast majority out there think that counts.
I can only understand what Hillary supporters feel like with the pummeling, but at least while I was "on the bandwagon" when it was Hillary vs. Obama, I argued from the substance of her voting records, and I decide that as a matter of principle, I will apply those very criteria to Biden - Lobbyist Influence, pro-Big Biz anti-Average Taxpayer record, disastrous NeoCon foreign policies, Dem cover for Bush abuses, etc.
It appears what matters here is not Principle, but some kind of a ...I can't even find the right words...Cult? This was an accusation I smacked down whenever the Kool-Aid was referenced before by Hillary supporters - I knew I was *buying* into what Obama was selling on Faith alone and was rejecting Hillary for what was *known* of her record, I'm clear-eyed about that, but this faith-belief in him has been shaken with every step he took closer to the rot of Washington. There's serious cognitive dissonance here, but what's worse is the barrage of attacks for even expressing such thoughts.
If Obama needs to cuddle up to Washington after all, then why not, from a coldly calculating perspective and shunting all principles aside, Hillary, who will bring with her her formidable base?
There seem to be a few resigned more mature bloggers and posters huddling on the less cheer-leading threads that accepted the objections, and I enjoy their company.
Otherwise, this feels too much like Animal Farm, it matters not that the pigs are feeding at the same Wall St.-K St.-AIPAC trough as long as Farmer Jones is kept away, and there're always the faithful sheep.
August 25, 2008 11:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks, Qwerty. It appears you and I are having a similar experience here. TPM definitely feels f*ck nuts lately.
Personally, I think it's a result of following the punditry too closely. I swear I think they're making people insane.
I try to remain clear-eyed as well. I'm hoping Obama's statements and actions are done with the goal being to win the general election. But I'm aware that it's a gamble, and it's entirely possible we'll be disappointed in Obama in the end.
Sigh. In addition to all the over-blown, media-fed drama, I think a (partial) explanation for the madness is high anxiety. So much is at stake, it has folks who would normally be natural political allies at each others' throats.
August 25, 2008 11:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I wasn't listening to the punditry at all, I know they're making this into a Clinton vs. Obama opera but I do believe that Hillary supporters will come round to Obama.
The cognitive dissonance is with Obama himself and his choices so far.
I really wish someone who has a good knowledge of Biden's voting records would explain to me how a guy like Obama would pick a Joe like Biden. I thought it's judgment, not experience, it's change, not establishment, it's ordinary Americans, not lobbyists, it's multilateralism, not empire, it's choice, not Clarence Thomas.
He's running against McCain yet he picked as VP the most McCain of all the candidates, Joe and John voted the same on so many occasions, it would be near impossible for the Dems to draw a clear line between the two. Even physically and visually, he is McCain's doppelganger - does he believe it'll confuse the McCain seniors and that this Republican-lite strategy will work?
If Obama is running on a repudiation of Bush/McSame, surely this strategy will backfire.
August 26, 2008 5:29 AM | Reply | Permalink
OK Qwerty, I will take a stab at it.
Obama has to meld the old with the new. He understands that Biden is a bridge to the washington mindset. While I agree with you that Biden has been in bed with the bankers all along, he also will bring years of insight when it comes to the banking and credit card industry which are going to be key to turning the economy around.
Obama has removed the most powerful lobbyist for those industries OUT of the senate. Biden's role will be to push through Obama's plan, not the banking lobbyists now. Unless Obama has someone on his team who knows the pittfalls and weaknesses of these powerful groups, he cannot begin to turn this economy around. Biden knows all the players and he knows what to leverage.
I hope you will have more faith in Obama's judgment. He has consistently said that he wants all voices at his table, Obama does not need sycophants. He knows that only with all voices at the table with a common goal can anything be done. Recall, Obama passed ethics legislation reform..he had no colleagues and friends on board with ethics reform when he started out..yet he was able to meld a consensus and get it passed.
Obama does not beleive in incestuous smplification where everyone is on the same page and simply emphasizes the majority view or the view they beleive is the 'power view'. Individuals will not move up in this administration kissing but. Do you recall the feedback for the focus groups when searching for the VP? Kaine of VA is Obama's good buddy but in the focus group they said he was too much of a smoocher to be the Obama's VP.
Obama is intelligent enough to know how to process and analyzed opposing information. He is an excellent and brilliant strategist as well. His meteroic rise in politics is no accident.
August 26, 2008 10:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thank you for taking the trouble vissitudes. Will you consider my counterpoints?
1. It's all a huge big assumption - I am asked to take a big leap of faith that Obama is getting Biden in to deal a blow to the Bankers, that Biden would "turn", that this really isn't what it seems, i.e. a capitulation to Wall St. However, I wonder if you would believe it if McCain were to suggest that he's got Charlie Black on his Straight Talk Express because he needs his expert "insider" advice about smashing K St's influence in Washington?
2. What makes it harder to swallow is the fact that Biden is so beholden to the industry and profiting so much from the relationship, his own son's first job out of college is to turn lobbyist for them. Anyone see serious conflict of interest here? If you entrust your kid to the mafia you're working for, you're probably unlikely to "turn". By getting his son into the filthy lucre business, he's not even attempting to put any distance between himself and the Banking mafia.
3. There's also the character of Biden himself. It wasn't just the bills he passed, it's the manner in which he shoved them up our *sses. I hope you've read the links on TPM, the Bankruptcy Act was such a travesty, lawmakers were trying to add amendments that would give minimum cover to the truly destitude and the most vulnerable, divorced working single moms and their kids, those bankrupted by huge medical bills, even a big-biz Republican like Conryn balked at it for all the loopholes it provided for the Enrons of this world. Biden took no prisoners, it would be a widows-and-orphans Bill with everything for his campaign donors and the worst legislation for Americans in decades, guaranteed to enslave the majority of debtors to their creditors, perhaps for life. When even Republicans think it's too much, perhaps Obama should sit up and take notice.
He obviously "vetted" Biden, but pray explain how is it that his operative, Wade, gave out erroneous information to the presses, in effect turning black into white, and of course it didn't take much for the NYTimes to publish and clarify the truth of what transpired blow by blow, no doubt to great embarassment to Obama.
4. It wasn't just the Bankruptcy Bill, if you'd consider Biden's own Iraq War record, he convened a Senate hearing ostensibly to deliberate about the decision to authorize Bush but invited NONE of the UN weapons inspectors or experts who have expressed doubts, no Hans Blitz and instead set up a kabuki for the Chalabi clique and other hawks. Scott Ritter described it as a huge farce designed to lend cover to the WH.
5. It's a recurrent pattern with Biden, from the days of Clarence Thomas through the bombing of Serbia under Clinton to the "happy to run with or against McCain" rhetoric, and I haven't even got into the choice quotes from Biden about Delaware really wanting to fight *with* the Confederates but got stuck in the North....
I'm not surprised to see Obama tanking in the polls. I have no idea if it's Hillary voters turning away, I'm certainly not one, but anyone familiar with Biden's record would be flummoxed, and aghast that Obama would then venture to whitewash Biden's record in front of the press.
Like I said, cognitive dissonance....notice that it emanated from factual events, not a hypothesis. All of the above can be easily verified, and god knows the derision and scorn I've been deluged with, still I'm sure I'm not the only alarmed progressive out there.
You're asking that I take another leap of faith, that there's an alternative reality to this, that somehow, all will be revealed someday to be the best of possible worlds like a Tom Cruise movie ending but that blind faith in Obama before is now bumped up uncomfortably against some deeply held principles.
The refrain that The One is still far better than McCain evokes scenes from Animal Farm. Nov. is still a way off, so maybe there's time for a bit of kamikaze kabuki along the line of an urgent "need to spend more time with the Biden family" and Obama may be obliged to seek a new VP as his polls torpedo, one could only Hope.
August 26, 2008 12:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
I should add that I'm resigned to compromises - Old Washington hand, ok. Toupee, fine. "Centrist" BlueDogs, let them loose. Just not a crook, not a Democratic Ted Stevens please...
August 26, 2008 1:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Okay, now you've hit one of my sore spots.
It's not a rug, its hair transplants and even if you can't understand how a senator from a postage stamp sized state that's a wholly owned subsidiary of the banking industry has to do their bidding on the big things, cut him some slack on the hair hair thing.
The guy was going prematurely bald, and he was apparently doing so with the quiet dignity we'd expect of a political figure.
Then he had an anyurism that nearly killed him and, of course, he had major brain surgery. (Really close, actually. They were measuring the guy for a casket and he was gone from the Senate for a very long time).
After it was over, the choice before him was either live with a huge-ass ugly scar on his bald pate that said "Hi,vote for me! I had brain surgery!" everytime someone looked at him, or get some hair transplants.
Most bald or balding guys will tell you that the trauma of losing your hair sooner than you should is infinitely preferable to the indignity of just suddenly showing up at work one day with a roadkill rat on your head. Almost as bad would be the snickers and assumptions of vanity you'd get if you suddenly started growing hair again.
But I guarentee you that if you gave any of them a totally legit excuse like like a big brain surgery scar for getting hair transplants, well that's a major no brainer. "Let's see, look worse than I do now or look better than I did before I lost my hair and not get snickered at for it. Hmmm, hmmmmm, gee what a hard decision. What to do, what to do?"
August 26, 2008 6:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm sympathetic, I really am. The steady retreat, the March of the Pate, the Sahara, the Mediterranean, the Deforrestation, the Global Balding. Which is why I'm cutting some slack here, I'm just sayin, make sure it moves in the wind is all i ask.
August 27, 2008 12:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm pretty new here, and don't know you or Qwerty. To make matters worse, I'm a long time Republican (and a Christian to boot) who is passionately supporting Obama. I've posted several times about the need for party unity. Aside from using the term "Hillbilly" on my 1st post (which I recognize now was offensive have refrained from using it since) I've always attempted to be be polite. My presence here is intended to help give you guys some perspective on how some of "the other" side thinks, and show that while there is much that divides us, we have much in common, as well, while at the same time learning what drives the more liberal people here.
I am not so much issue driven as I am repulsed by what the Republican Party has become. My intention had been to sit this election out, until I discovered Obama. In him I found a man who is a pragmatist, who doesn't see the world in black and white or red and blue. A man who is more concerned with getting the country moving forward rather than wallowing in it's inability to get past the polarization.
My decision to vote for Obama was initially predicated on the caveat that if he chose Hillary as his running mate, all bets were off. I would go back to sitting the election out. But, as I read more and more, not only from the posts here, but from the sites that many of you frequently reference when making points, I now understand that it is critically important that the Democrats win this election. I made the decision that even if he picked Hillary, I would still, not only vote for him, but would max out my contribution and go to a battleground state to work for him in October. It was not an easy thing for me to do. To say I'm not a fan of the Clintons would be a huge understatement, but I am so afraid for the future of this country should McCaine be elected, I would have done it.
Obama's choice of Biden was not hard for me to accept. True, he is not an agent of change. BUT, let's be practical here. Asking people to accept not only an African American, but a relatively young, new to the scene one, is huge for many people. I have discovered racism in my own family that I did not know was there. Having on the ticket a man who knows his way around Washington, knows how to get legislation passed, is well respected in the Senate, is not rich or (God help me, I hate this word) elite...these are things that help to make it easier for some people to pull that lever for Obama.
I'm getting extremely long winded and I apologize for that. I am very afraid that ideology and principles are going to get in the way of a victory in November. PLEASE don't go ballistic. I know both those things are VERY important, and any other time, I might be moved to put them ahead of everything else. BUT, I am very afraid that McCain is a man who might get us into a nuclear war. I believe that Obama will do everything in his power to avoid that. PLUS I believe that he has the ability to get people to COMPROMISE (I know, another bad word!) and that, IMHO is the only way to move beyond the polarization. Thanks for listening.
August 26, 2008 12:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for your comment. Don't worry about the length -- I'm flattered you took the time to write and relate your personal story. And I'm very glad we're political allies!
We seem to have a little in common. I'm a former sometimes-Republican voter. Generally I have viewed political parties as phony and have avoided "joining" one in the past. In fact, politicians and stuff they talked about seemed contrived and insulting and a waste of time. I never really bought into the whole culture wars, liberal v. conservative polarization thing because I knew so many people who just didn't fit into that construct. It looked made up to me. So I mostly tuned out politics and all the stupid-as-hell political commentary out there. (Sweet Jesus how I loathe that gluttonous, mean-mouthed, hatred-cultivating, self-aggrandizing Rush Limbaugh!)
What Obama brought home to me was the realization that I had to work and inform myself and participate to make a party -- and politics -- reflect the values I hold. And then I realized the only party available to me -- a NOT rich, NOT powerful, "little," humble voter -- was the Democratic Party.
I guess I could say he helped me become a responsible adult, politically.
I'm so glad your journey brought you here, SI. I have family members who are very conservative, doctrinaire Republicans who do all the stereotypical crap, much to my dismay. So hearing about your transformation is heartening for me.
August 26, 2008 1:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
Never voted Republican in my life, however, without a lot of Dems collaborating and colluding, this criminal administration could have not scaled new heights in corruption and desecration of what the country represents. A pox on both their houses.
I hold individual politicians responsible on their record, and it's not so much how "liberal" or "conservative" their votes but the integrity and legality of the positions they hold and the principles on which they stand.
Government spending? That's not a "liberal" or "conservative" position - Bush spends and squandered trillions on wars, it doesn't make him a "liberal". It's *how* taxpayers' money is spent. Pork, unnecessary spending like wars, MIC programs, unaccountable spending like the post 9/11 spree, bailing out Bear Stearns are Bush and Fed abomination but I'm for spending on public infrastructure, education, healthcare, disaster rebuilding, etc.
Issues are not cloaked in Red or Blue but shades of grey. We have to find a way out of the Bush calamnity, and Washington as we know it has to change for that to happen.
OTOH, the only way I can understand how Obama come to settle on a sleazeball like Biden is that he was inducted into it while in a smoke-filled room.....
August 26, 2008 2:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
That was in answer to stillidealistic post about party affiliation.
August 26, 2008 2:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
"OTOH, the only way I can understand how Obama come to settle on a sleazeball like Biden is that he was inducted into it while in a smoke-filled room....."
If this is true then our 2% chance that Barack can change the future of Washington just went down the toilet...I'm not ready to go there, yet.
BTW...How do you do block quotes on a comment?
August 26, 2008 3:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Great post stillidealistic
I agree with much of what you wrote especially when it comes to a nuclear holocaust.
I just do not know how we can make more independents and republicans understand the seriousness of this election and see how deleterious McCain is to the future of our grandchildren and nation.
August 26, 2008 3:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Keep doin' what we're doin'...I think a lot of independents visit this site (echo chamber that it can be!) and at least we make them think...You guys have got me totally engrossed in this process (my family would say "obsessed with")
Plus posting on other sites, talking w/ people, working the phone banks through your local Obama headquarters...every little bit helps.
We are in a financial position to be able to leave California for a few weeks in Oct. to work in a battleground state (they don't need us here)but not everyone can do that...Just do something! Sitting around fretting will not only make you crazy, but it doesn't contribute to the cause.
August 26, 2008 4:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
stillidealistic-
Your bio above was very interesting and well-said. For a long-time Republican, you're starting to sound a lot like a Democrat. :-)
Here is how to blockquote:
insert the word blockquote between these two symbols at the beginning of the quote.
insert the word blockquote after the / symbol at the end of the quote.
There should be no spaces between symbols and words.
August 26, 2008 6:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Trying it again for the blockquote by turning off html:
at the end of the quote (close tag)There should be no spaces between symbols and words.
August 26, 2008 7:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
I give up.
August 26, 2008 7:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
OK, maybe one last time
insert the word "blockquote" (without the quotation marks) between these two symbols < > at the beginning of the quote. Looks like this: <blockquote>
insert the word "blockquote" after the / symbol </ > at the end of the quote. Looks like this: </blockquote>
There should be no spaces between symbols and words.
August 26, 2008 7:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hmm. Come to think of it, there really wasn't much acrimony while you and Quinn were gone. I hadn't made the correlation myself, but...
Just kidding. Sort of.
No, really.
Maybe.
August 25, 2008 11:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's that damn Quinn.....
August 25, 2008 11:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
You crack me up.
Btw, I'm glad you brought the old avatar back.
August 25, 2008 11:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hmm. Come to think of it, there really wasn't much acrimony while you and Quinn were gone. I hadn't made the correlation myself, but...
Just kidding. Sort of.
No, really.
Maybe.
August 25, 2008 11:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's that damn Laura.....
August 25, 2008 11:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Now that made me laugh.
Thanks, Orlando.
August 25, 2008 11:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry for the double comment. My computer went all wacky. It hasn't done that since you two have been away. I hadn't made the correlation, but...
August 26, 2008 12:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
Pretty "convenient" how that computer goes wacky only at certain times. Hmmmm.... Fact 1. Q & L come back, acrimony - which arose while O was on guard - ENDS. Fact 2. Everyone peaceful & singing, and who turns up? O. Fact 3. Just as Q & L attempt to determine WHY things went haywire, comments appear - insulting BOTH Q & L - conveniently kicking dust over trail. Comments originating from whose "wacky" computer? O's.
My conclusion? LAURA DUNNIT.
August 26, 2008 1:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
Blast! Foiled by the wily Quinn Esq!
August 26, 2008 1:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
Rec'd.
If you read/hear/watch corporate tabloids, you are going to have corporate opinions.
Read books. Speak with experts. Failing those, use the internet. Failing both, simply destroy your television. You might just find yourself... thinking.
August 26, 2008 3:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
In the words of that old idealist, John Prine:
Blow up your TV throw away your paper
Go to the country, build you a home
Plant a little garden, eat a lot of peaches
Try and find [TRUTH] on your own
Yeah, I modified that last line a little.
August 26, 2008 3:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
That's actually the song I was thinking of!!!
August 26, 2008 3:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
So the problem is basically that Hillary's supporters are women and what they really want is attention, not someone to solve (their) problems?
Sheesh...
But seriously, reporters and pundits are profound jerks. They're like someone talking to an insecure woman: "You think your husband's not giving you enough attention? He says he's been working, but do you think he might be -- WITH SOMEBODY ELSE? What should he do to PROVE that he's faithful?"
It's unclear whether they do this in their great quest to make things exciting and marketable, or is the problem simply the 24-hour coverage, where they have to speak non-stop, so they repeat the few things that come to mind over and over and over.
But it's clear they're giving very little thought to what this might be doing to the people. Ever heard of ecology, my friends? Well, apply it! You pollute people's minds!
August 26, 2008 6:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
First to be honest this whole 'we left you kids alone and look what you did to the house' thing bugged me right away.
I don't think all hell has broken loose but that's because I am comfortable finding harmony by engaging conflict.
Having said that as Chronospark and others have posted... we can certainly have compassion for Hillary supporters as they were as ardent as we Obama supporters are about our candidate. If the situation were reversed it would be excruciating. I really do get that. But getting past the choice in candidates to what will my vote mean for me, my daughter, my country there's no contest... I would vote for Hillary. I would not vote for McCain out of spite because it would only come round to hit me back in the face through his supreme court nominations and his 'yes there will be more wars... ' statement, and continuing the tax cuts for the wealthy while bankrupting the nation and funnelling the borrowed money to military 'contractor/friends'. No contest whatsoever.
August 26, 2008 6:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, I guess it does come across that way -- sorry.
But we just can't keep anything nice around here because of you damn kids! You're gonna turn my hair white and drive me to drinking!
:-)
Thanks for your comment, lbrillante.
August 26, 2008 11:48 AM | Reply | Permalink
Obama is not sound on choice despite his past votes: he considered voting for Roberts which would not even occur to anyone who is instinctively pro-choice. His rationale was that he wanted the power to make his own picks if he were ever President. He had the extremely naive view that if he did this the Republicans might reciprocate in the future. The view that the Senate confirmation process ought to roll over for the President is extremely dubious Constitutional law and is perplexing from someone with Obama's legal credentials.
The discepancy between his private calculations and public pronouncements on the subject are just plain eerie.
He can be trusted on this topic just as much as we can trust his pledge to filibuster retroactive immunity for the telecoms.
It doesn't seem to have dawned on anyone here that many people became Hillary supporters becaused they disliked and distrusted Obama in the first place: the assumption seems to be that Obama is distrusted because people liked Hillary.
There are also people who, because they liked Hillary, researched Obama and didn't like what they found.
You are not going to get them to forget what they found by urging them to get over their emotions.
August 26, 2008 7:54 AM | Reply | Permalink
Maybe you should look at the sources of what you found. Some sources and commentary are better than others, and people see what they want to see, not what the truth really is.
Therefore we can do this circular firing squad all day. I have quite a few credible unbiased sources proving his sound record on choice.
The truth is I am sick to death of fighting this argument. You can think Obama is a shyster all you want, but the alternative, McCain is an appalling one.
Hillary is NOT one of the choices. Sorry...get your head out of your ass and pick one - McCain or Obama - those are your only choices.
Pick the McCain at your own peril
August 26, 2008 10:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
Great post! Obama has a long record of supporting choice and beinga leader on the issue. One thing I noticed about Hillary supporters is none of them can tell of a single incident where Hilalry took a stance for choice.
After S. Dakota passed that ban on abortions outlawing abortions even in the case of incest and rape, ONLY ONE U.S. Senator worked and help fundraise to overturn that ban. Their name was not Hillary Clinton..it was Barack Obama. He stood on principle to oppose that legislative ban just like he did when he spoke out on the war.
HRC has not once in her lifetime taking a courageous opposing stance where it was a political risk. She simply lacks that type of principled courage of conviction. If it is not politically popular she straddles the fence and/or is silent.
That is why HRC is not a leader. She is a political opportunist who does what is politically expedient for her ambitions. Which is why, despite supporting her and Bill all during the 90s and through the vastrightwing conspiracy, Obama has my vote.
Obama is the bridge to the future. The Clintons are the bridge back to the last century.
August 26, 2008 10:48 AM | Reply | Permalink
I agree with you..but your points will only piss off the PUMA's. Neither I, nor you, will change their minds, so it is pointless in trying.
The point must be slammed home in the most powerful way possible that there are only 2 candidates, Hillary is not one of them.
Who are these "Hillary supporters" going to choose?
It is really just that simple.
To them I say:
Bitch about Obama all you want, but at the same time stress that you'll vote for him because the alternative is too horrific to even contemplate.
August 26, 2008 10:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
Rec'd. I think we got "had" to a good extent. The Reps -- and some others who call themselves committed Dems and the media, both for their own purposes -- have wanted to stoke this division and the firebrand found ready fuel.
-- As you suggest, Laura, probably the best way to deal with all the bubbling feelings (on BOTH sides!) is to do the mental flip and think how we would feel if it was our candidate that lost -- or won, setting entirely aside whether you felt the campaign was 'fair' or not (because we each feel our candidate was fair). And keeping in mind that both campaigns were truly historic, so that how the losing candidate is treated is also going to be considered treatment of an entire segment of society, one very much warranting respect.
There are reactions of the Clinton supporters that become very legitimate and understandable -- and some that are over-the-top. Those are, I suspect, as offensive to the legitimate supporters as they are to others, if not more so. And there are reactions of Obama supporters that are a rational, and deserved, reaction to having their candidate's victory smothered or overshadowed ... and some that are too thin-skinned or still-angry to be acceptable or helpful, to anyone, particularly the party and our chances in Nov.
Anyway, I've found that sort of helpful (once I calmed down and got away from those instinctive, came-to-be habitual reactions)
August 26, 2008 8:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
Uh-oh. You recognize nuance. And that we're individuals with differing responses. That means your words will appear to some an unintelligible mish-mash of contradictory statements!
But count me as one who appreciates your comments. Thanks, Elizabeth.
August 26, 2008 11:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
You are SO right Elizabeth about respect and Obama knows it and has gone out of his way to show it to the CLintons and they will do the same. He's a classy guy. The rest of the bloviating blogosphere and media echo chamber that doesn't get it just demonstrate their inability to get over reality.
Obama vs. McCain. Pick one.
August 26, 2008 7:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Nice try but they just can't help themselves.
August 26, 2008 9:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
Not like you, of course.
August 26, 2008 6:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
I, for one, feel like the entitlement crowd still feels the need to stew in their own juices of defeat before this infighting ceases. There seems to be a fair amount of "ankle biting" on the part of regulars like Billy Glad ( I only use him as an example out of respect for his dominating presence from the HRC holdouts).
Although I was certainly, and remain to be, a staunch Obama supporter (vocally, to the point of stupidity at times) I am at a loss as to what these folks are expecting of us-- we won, they lost--what in the hell are we supposed to do? Compassion? Why? All you ever heard from these folks is how HRC was able to stand up against the Republican Machine because she is vetted and tough, and how dedicated THEY are to the party. Now we get the threats of crossover voting... I think they are whiners and they can stay home if they can't handle politics-done-right and by the RULES.
I say, quit the pouting and shape-up... this election is too important to deal with whiners. After we win, we'll all have a discussion on how to pamper the high-maintenance crowd.
August 26, 2008 10:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
Well, calling Hillary supporters the 'entitlement crowd" etc is a real great way to build party unity. If there is a fall off of support for Obama - people who supported Clinton, usual Democrats who don't vote, it's people like you who will be at fault.
As a Hillary supporter, I can assure you that I will vote for Obama, but that doesn't make me want to make nice with folks like you. Why?
1) Hillary is more progressive than Obama yet Obama supporters continually argued that she was Republican lite - flaunting their ignorance of their own candidate's positions. And look how much he has surprised so many of you - but that is because so many Obama supporters didn't see him as he was but as you imagined him.
2) The self-righteous and self-congratulatory holier than thou schtick of the the Obamaphiles who could not understand that you can oppose a black man because he is too conservative and that it doesn't make you a racist. When you couple that with the willful misrepresentation of his record as some superliberal - I can only conclude that his supporters were assuming black = liberal which is racist in itself.
3) The sexism that argues that women support Clinton merely because of her gender. From people supporting Obama merely because of his race, this takes real gall.
4) The forgive Obama anything, Hate on Clinton for everything. The zenith of this was after the FISA vote when people said Obama had to do it, that it was politic, etc. then the same people critcized Clinton for voting AGAINST FISA saying that was purely political. What bullshit. They congratulate Obama for throwing out his principles and integrity for votes and then criticize Clinton claiming she did the same thing when she voted the opposite. This reveals the utter mindless stupidity of the Obamatard. This was about the time I gave up on this place as a center for sane political discourse. Seeing people twist their own principles and excuse FISA was truly sickening.
5) The mindless Clinton hatred exemplified by the hatemongerers who insisted she was trying to incite an assassination. No matter how much they say make nice now - and how much they say unity, unity, unity. I remember who they are and they are irredeemable hatemnongers whose opinions are worthless and whose characters are worth even less than that.
Okay, now there are plenty of principled Obama supporters and I can and did name principled reasons for supporting Obama even when the primary was contested. However, an overwhelming and tiresome truckload of Obamatards scream and shout and order people to leave TPM and generally behave like children throwing tantrums. And yes, they do drive out other opinions so they can stroke each other with their mutual admiration society, but they don't build party unity and they don't motivate anyone - not anyone - to vote for Obama. In fact, the opposite. They motivate people to not vote or to write in Clinton or - and damn them for this - to vote McCain.
August 26, 2008 2:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Anh. Just ignore 'em OA. If they're behaving childishly, f*ck 'em! Rise above, rise above. There are fair-minded, rational, and respectful conversations going on here between all kinds of us. You just have to try to let all the other noise fade into the background (though sometimes it does seem to get deafening, doesn't it?)
I know you won't let a bunch of idiots on political blogs influence you to vote against your own interests.
August 26, 2008 2:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
This is not a popularity contest. I would vote D regardless of who won the primary. You, on the other hand, would make it seem as though anyone who voted for Obama was an idiot:
"...so many Obama supporters didn't see him as he was but as you imagined him."--The "kool-aid" argument. FU
"The self-righteous and self-congratulatory holier than thou schtick of the the Obamaphiles who could not understand that you can oppose a black man because he is too conservative and that it doesn't make you a racist. When you couple that with the willful misrepresentation of his record as some superliberal - I can only conclude that his supporters were assuming black = liberal which is racist in itself."--The "elite argument". GFY
"The sexism that argues that women support Clinton merely because of her gender. From people supporting Obama merely because of his race, this takes real gall." -- The "I-can't-understand-why-we-are -losing" whine. Pitiful.
"The forgive Obama anything, Hate on Clinton for everything. The zenith of this was after the FISA vote when people said Obama had to do it, that it was politic, etc. then the same people critcized Clinton for voting AGAINST FISA saying that was purely political. What bullshit. They congratulate Obama for throwing out his principles and integrity for votes and then criticize Clinton claiming she did the same thing when she voted the opposite. This reveals the utter mindless stupidity of the Obamatard. This was about the time I gave up on this place as a center for sane political discourse. Seeing people twist their own principles and excuse FISA was truly sickening." --Think "War Resolution vote and Iran Resolution vote". I for one, was none-too-happy about the stance taken by Obama on the FISA vote, and recall many others in the Obama camp that were extremely vocal on TPM and other sites... God forbid a HRC supporter being vocal about Hillary endorsing McCain for Prez over Obama. How 'bout you "activist?" Could your camp be less inclusive of dissenters?
"The mindless Clinton hatred exemplified by the hatemongerers who insisted she was trying to incite an assassination. No matter how much they say make nice now - and how much they say unity, unity, unity. I remember who they are and they are irredeemable hatemnongers whose opinions are worthless and whose characters are worth even less than that."-- OK--Who in the F**k would be stupid enough to even bring this up in a primary...I believe it's a first. Thanks Team HRC! True groundbreakers!
"...an overwhelming and tiresome truckload of Obamatards scream and shout and order people to leave TPM and generally behave like children throwing tantrums. And yes, they do drive out other opinions so they can stroke each other with their mutual admiration society,..."-- UNITY baby! UNITY! ...again:GFY
August 27, 2008 11:25 AM | Reply | Permalink
Gdubs avatar is "The Greatest American Hero"
Which kinda makes me think they really might be for McCain. I mean how could anyone think that The Greatest American Hero be anyone but a GOP presidential candidate.
"Believe it or not I'm walking on air,
I never knew I could feel so free---ee---ee
Soaring along on a wing and a prayer
who could it be
Believe it or not it's just me"
I have know idea why I know the words to the theme
of The Greatest American Hero, I'M SO ASHAMED.
ONE OTHER THING TO CONSIDER. Somewhere in this thread someone said that Obama's campaign needed to do the "heavy lifting." WHAT THE HELL DOES THAT MEAN?
What Would Clinton expect of Obama had she won the nomination?
Know this IF OBAMA LOSES, CLINTON(S) WILL BE BLAMED and ANY CHANCE OF HILLARY BEING PRESIDENT WILL EVAPORATE.
AS A MATTER OF FACT "SHERROD BROWN-2016"
August 26, 2008 10:12 AM | Reply | Permalink
O my god - not that avatar. I haven't seen that avatar in a long time.
O jesus!
August 26, 2008 11:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
Aw, you recognized that avatar?? I had no idea who that was! I was busy comforting myself with the thought that it was probably so obscure nobody over 30 would recognize it either. Dang!
Until I asked gdubs, I thought the avatar looked like Richard Simmons, for cryin' out loud.
August 26, 2008 11:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
Laura
How about HR Puffnstuff? A Kroft creation.
As a child I never got the inside joke, did you?
August 26, 2008 1:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Duh, inside joke?
I was a little kid when I watched, so I didn't even realize there was an inside joke...
But now you've piqued my curiosity.
August 26, 2008 1:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Who doesn't love the Greatest American Hero? To be honest, I only use it because I'm totally down with William Katt's blonde fro.
And Greatest American Hero means I'm a Republican? Come on -- the Greatest American Hero helps people -- when do Republicans ever DO THAT?
August 26, 2008 3:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Jesus. I'm thinking about becoming a Republican because I'm so sick and tired of being part of a team that is so inherently self-immolating.
I don't care who the fucking Democratic candidate is. I just want someone besides a cynical, incompetent Republican in the White House. Biden, Dodd, Edwards, Kucinich, Clinton, Obama. Who gives a shit? They're all better than the alternative.
I really can't believe anyone is still having any sort of inane back-and-forth about Clinton/Obama, Obama/Clinton. Slights, hurt feelings, gloating, negotiations, disrespect. Christ.
Indulging this childish melodrama any further at such a crucial juncture is simply irresponsible. Watching McCain re-run Hillary's attacks, using that damn delegate, the 'passed-over' ad...For fuck's sake.
We really did deserve W.
August 26, 2008 10:33 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm putting a twist on your quote to illustrate what the HRC hold-outs SHOULD be thinking:
"Jesus. I'm thinking about becoming a DEMOCRAT because I'm so sick and tired of being part of a team that is so inherently self-immolating"
August 26, 2008 10:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
No kidding. But then, they'd have proven themselves wrong, because Obama would prove he could win the general.
August 26, 2008 2:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
I wouldn't confuse TPM with the Democratic Party. Anyway, I think it's obvious even after just one day the convention is unrolling smoothly to its scripted conclusion.
August 26, 2008 1:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
If Obama would get in the fight and beat up McCain and Bush, perhaps we'd all start working together. But Obama/Axelrod/Plouffe are asleep at the wheel. If they don't nail the GOP on 3 major issues over the next 3 days that stick for 10 weeks, then I'm done with the f#cking Democrats. Not one single Democrat has any guts so far.
Michael Moore: "Is it true all Democrats drink from a sippy cup and sleep with the light on?"
August 26, 2008 11:14 AM | Reply | Permalink
So - you're through with the Democrats if they don't give you just exactly what you want.
Please be sure and let me know when you find the political party that does give you just exactly what you want - I want to join to.
I've been looking for my fairy godmother for years - let me know when you find yours.
August 26, 2008 11:54 AM | Reply | Permalink
TenaX - Honestly, you're the best commenter around, so it hurts to have you scold me... :)
But I want a FIGHT. After 8 devastating years, I want to WIN. This is the heat of the battle, so please forgive me. But I'm here waiting for Barack to show up to that fight.
You can't get sick in this MF'ing country w/o possibly facing bankrupcty. There's something wrong here, and no one's fighting to change it. What have we become in the last 30 years?
This place is worth a real fight (playing for keeps), and I'm not getting it from my man, Barack Obama.
August 26, 2008 12:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Patience, Grasshoppah. There have been mere skirmishes -- the battles have not yet begun!
I have a feeling we're going to land some solid (and very satisfying) blows against the Republicans very soon.
August 26, 2008 1:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
laurajordan: Thank you, I needed that. I hope you're right.
All I'm sayin' is somebody better rent a plane next week and fly around Minneapolis with a catchy insult against McCain like they're doing against Biden/Barack right now...
August 26, 2008 1:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
All our fairy godmothers are in Denver I hear, waving their magic wands over the proceedings, sprinkling Unity Now (& Kick A Republican) dust over everyone.
Yours asked me to send along a message, Tena. Seems she'll be in the Beer Tent from about 11 am on (hmmmmm), wearing a Tiara and a "I'm A Fairy Godmother & I'm From Texas - You Got Something To Say, Pal?" T-shirt, whatever that means. I'd suggest you buy her a drink before you hit her up for any cash though. ;-)
August 26, 2008 1:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ooh! I saw her at the airport! The tiara gave her away.
But she was wearing a shirt that said "Welcome to Texas! Now, GIT!"
She sure can chug down the Lone Star.
August 26, 2008 1:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
The real problem is that the American people need someone to tell them what to think and what to do. They can't see their own self interests, they can't understand what's happening to us and why. And they're too damn lazy to find out for themselves, and too hostile to "intellect" to figure it out for themselves.
And now, they've got a great inbuilt excuse because they "don't know who this young black guy is." They don't know who McCain is, either, or they would understand voting for him is not in their self interests, but that doesn't matter, because he's white, gray-haired, and a Republican. And everyone knows Republicans' strengths are fiscal responsibility, personal morality, and national defense. Just look at the last eight years.
August 26, 2008 2:13 PM | Reply | Permalink