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Russia has Invaded Georgia: What Should We Do?
Alright, what's the practical and strategic response? How does it relate to Russia's pipelines supplying Europe with gas and oil? How does it relate to stability in the Mideast and our relations in Central Asia? How does it relate to Russia's nationalizing its oil and its handling of its nuclear weapons? Who's next on the list? What should be our future behavior/attitude towards Putin? Where too on the G-8? What part should the EU play vs. the US on a solution? What do you expect from the candidates?








Comments (62)
No frickin idea.
My initial impression - gathered strictly from the Newshour with Jim Lehrer -- is that it's an enormous moral headache, because Russia's aims are pretty malevolent (less about Ossetia itself than about destabilizing Georgia's democratic, pro-Western turn), and there's not a whole hell of a lot we're able to do about it.
I'm sure there's some clever form of international pressure that can be applied to Russia -- or international support for Georgia's government -- but I'm too stupid to think of it, and instead should go back to sleep. This is one of those things that makes me glad I'm not actually responsible for making foreign policy.
I'm sure Samantha Power knows the right answer.
August 9, 2008 6:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
Russia has a lot of oil. If we mess with Russia, there will be oil disruptions and gas prices will go up. They might also convince Iran to stop sending us oil.
August 9, 2008 7:25 AM | Reply | Permalink
Refiners buy oil on the open market. National Iranian Oil Company (NIOC) choosing not to sell oil would raise the price for everyone, but would put a big dent in their income, too. Same goes for Russia. We'd still be buying oil, and China would still be buying oil, while buyers in Eritrea would be priced out of the market.
August 9, 2008 10:51 AM | Reply | Permalink
The NYT has two very informative reports of the situation up on its website.
Aug. 8 report
Aug. 9 report
August 9, 2008 9:01 AM | Reply | Permalink
I think we should start by hiring people who lobbied for Georgia to ensure our impartiality and objectivity. Sadly McCain has a head start on this.
My understanding of the larger implications of the situation: Georgia is not one of the most important players in the energy supply chain, though not insignificant either as a thoroughfare for pipelines current and future. South Ossetia and Akhbazia have mainly been chess pieces for Russia, earlier to dissuade Georgia's NATO aspirations and more recently to suggest that granting Kosovo independence would also mean the two might gain theirs respectively.
August 9, 2008 9:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
I read somewhere yesterday that 1% of the daily world oil supply flows through Georgia, from one of the Stans to Europe. Though I can't find the article today.
August 9, 2008 10:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
My wife and I lived in Tbilisi, Georgia's capital, for a year before returning in November of last year. Among people we knew there, The International Crisis Group's reports on the ongoing conflicts in South Ossetia and Abkhazia were respected for their balance and accuracy.
ICG put up a media bulletin on the crisis yesterday. They issue periodic reports updating crisis situations, and offering recommendations on what might be done to ameliorate them, there and worldwide. Access to their stuff is free of charge when you sign up at their website, which is at http://www.crisisgroup.org
August 9, 2008 10:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
Also, a well plugged-in (to the situation there) woman my wife and I befriended in Tbilisi who worked in Georgia with an NGO for many years, and who we consider to be knowledgeable, even-handed and perceptive, sent us the following email with her take on the situation and links she considers worthwhile, especially the Holbrooke interview:
OK, here is the most interesting and informed of the interviews I have
seen. From Richard Holbrooke, former US ambassador to the UN...
Also the CNN interview with Saakashvili [current Georgian President]...
http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2008/08/08/sots.holbrooke.cnn?iref=videosearch
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2008/08/08/intv.saakashvili.cnn
I find the major us news networks' coverage frustratingly biased toward
Russia, claiming that this is purely Georgian aggression.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/08/georgia.explainer/index.html
I find holbrooke's explanation most convincing, and also find it
interesting that he claims he predicted a year ago that exactly this
timeframe is when things would bust loose. The theory of 'getting it all
over" before a new us administration comes in rings true for me. Russia is
certainly that calculating, and would certainly have more to loose with a
new administration (either candidate) if this broke loose early in their
tenure.
Just now I see that cnn has posted a new story about Bush speaking with
Putin at Beijing. I will check that out, too.
At any rate, I think Saakashvili has turned this into an incredible
opportunity to FINALLY focus western attention on to the issues surrounding
Russia's meddling in neighboring states. Who would have thought it would
come through as the first news item of the day, topping even the opening of
the Beijing games! Misha [Saakashvili's nickname] is nothing if not a wiley PR guy...
(from our friend)
August 9, 2008 10:50 AM | Reply | Permalink
Best ongoing source for information on all-things Georgian is a daily digest put out by a gentleman we also befriended while there, Jonathan Kulick, called Georgia News Digest:
Georgia News Digest 08-09-08
A service of the Georgian Foundation for Strategic and International Studies
Archives and associated files at groups.google.com/group/genewsfiles
Jonathan's motto is "without fear or favor"--he tries to publish from as many different points of view as are out there.
And more from our plugged-in friend:
Hi, guys:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/10/weekinreview/10traub.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&hp
Here is the best overall article I have seen so far. While I dont agree with all of his more cynical remarks, he does a thorough job of explaining some of the more arcane points of historical emnities, and some of recent events leading up to today's events. I would have liked to see him mention the fact that Russia had been amassing troops on the border for years, and more intensively in the past months. But he is the first commentator i've seen to make the direct link to the Kosovo issue. This, and Russia's systematic preparations for the events now unfolding, are central to what is happening.
August 9, 2008 5:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
Not sure if the above post will enable readers to subscribe to the Georgia News Digest but if you just email Jonathan Kulick at jd_kulick@yahoo.com and ask him to put you on the distribution list that will work.
August 9, 2008 5:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
Offer to let Russsia keep Georgia provided they agree to take Alabama and Mississippi off our hands also.
August 9, 2008 12:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
South's gonna do it again, will kick their Slavic ass.
August 9, 2008 1:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
Go to the "All Central Asia, All The Time" blog by an American who knows it better than his own country:
http://www.registan.net/
August 9, 2008 2:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
P.S. If you want to read background, he uses tags:
http://www.registan.net/index.php/category/caucasus/georgia/
August 9, 2008 2:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Steve Clemons also has a very informative post up on the subject.
August 9, 2008 2:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
And a discussion of the relation of the granting of Kosovo independence to, and a prediction of, the current situation in Georgia. Linked to in the Clemons article.
August 9, 2008 2:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Answers several of your questions:
http://joshuatrevino.com/?p=637
August 9, 2008 2:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'd say point goes to McCain for backing Georgia instead of calling for "restraint" from both sides. Russia's been a bully in the Caucuses for a long time, and while EU nations hedge their statements because they depend on Russian natural gas, they also depend on us to be more outspoken. Russia's been looking for an excuse to annex Ossetia for 10 years. Giving tacit approval to that incursion will only promote other Russian adventures in former colonies. And yes, our recognizing Kosovo after ripped from Yugoslavia is not a helpful precedent.
August 9, 2008 4:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
I find it extremely unlikely that Russia would annex either of the two.
August 9, 2008 5:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
Either of what 2? I said Ossetia, and there's a good chance it will happen because it's already pretty well happened.
August 10, 2008 2:11 AM | Reply | Permalink
What Should We Do?
Er, I just ran across this which says we've already been doing plenty, a lot of inflammatory stuff. (The Clemons article cited above mentions the Rice visit, but not our joint military exercises in July following her visit):
Jul 18, '08, M K Bhadrakumar, Asia Times, Russia's energy drive leaves US reeling
August 9, 2008 5:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
I didn't notice any of the posters shocked or surprised by Russia's actions. Before 1917, the Russians had spent over 500 years forcibly annexing every square mile - with all the inhabitants thereof - to the South and East of Muscovy. No imperial power in history has ever simply walked away from an empire like that.
Russia's new strength is almost entirely based on Europe's dependence on Russian energy. The attack on Georgia should wake us all up to the reality of what Russia has always been and may always be: incorrigibly and ruthlessly expansionist.
The only thing we CAN do is what we should have done as soon as Putinism became the new Russian system: establish a partnership with Europe to defuse Europe's dependence on Russian oil and gas.
I have been thinking a lot about the Pickens Plan in this context. I don't like T. Boone Pickens, but his plan makes a lot of sense for the US, Canada, and Europe.
August 9, 2008 5:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
A few months ago I wrote that if Russia engaged militarily with Georgia it would touch off a new round of debate within the US foreign policy wonk community (very possibly extending no further as few Americans, me included before we opted to live there for a time, know where Georgia is) as to whether this signifies a renewal of Russia's historically expansionist predilections or, rather, is most likely a one-off situation.
My wife and I lived there for a year prior to returning late last year. I reported here around the beginning of this year that I had it from a source I considered highly reliable that the Russians were amassing troops on the Georgian border. I passed the tip along to a neighbor who is one of the foreign policy reporters for the Washington Post, offering to connect him to my source if he wanted to start digging.
August 9, 2008 6:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
An interesting diary was written by Jerome a Paris at DKos earlier today that I found to offer an informative perspective.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/8/9/82642/19523/204/565266
August 9, 2008 6:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for the links. They are quite the primer for International Relations.
Was I dreaming or did Russia say it wanted to bring Cuba back into its political orbit?
It seems like the old chess game is still being played.
August 9, 2008 7:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
I haven't had a chance to check out these presumably fabulous links but in thinking about "where does this go?" the following are my thoughts at this time.
One of Russia's two major strategic interests in Georgia is that they don't want Georgia to wind up in NATO and there is now a window for them to do anything they might consider doing to try to stop that. They don't want them in the EU, either, but that would be many years down the road--NATO decision is first up.
The Russians have been stirring up anti-Georgian unrest in Abkhazia and South Ossetia for years, partly with the aim of making Georgia less attractive as a possible NATO and EU member to existing members.
The other major Russian strategic interest in Georgia concerns oil and gas access.
The Clinton Administration pushed hard to get the BTC pipeline built, and it was. It transports Caspian Sea oil and gas from Baku, Azerbaijan through Tbilisi and then southwest to Ceyhan, Turkey, which is a Mediterranean port city. (BTC stands for the initials of these 3 cities.)
While Caspian Sea oil and gas supplies at the moment are looking to be not nearly as plentiful as was once hoped--closer to the amount of reserves in the North Sea than, say, half of Saudi reserves--obviously any known supplies are extremely valuable. The Clinton Administration, in supporting the BTC pipeline project, wanted to eliminate dependence on either the Russians or the Iranians to obtain access to these supplies for the US and the West. (running a pipeline from the Caspian thru Iran would have been shorter and more economical.)
So what sorts of interventions might the Russians consider if they wished to diminish this aspect of Georgia's strategic attractiveness to the West?
They might consider taking the territory south of Abkhazia as far south as Adjara, an autonomous territory within the geographic boundaries of Georgia proper, located in the southwest corner of Georgia and bordering Turkey, or even all the way to the Turkish border. This would deprive Georgia of a valuable Black Sea port, leaving it landlocked and in a far worse economic position.
Even if the US wanted to provide military support of some sort we don't have troops because we are so over-extended in Iraq and Afghanistan. NATO might possibly consider sending troops, under a purely defensive rationale, to just south of Abkhazia to try to deter any possible Russian designs on taking the territory south of Abkhazia along the Black Sea coast.
NATO might consider doing this if it has concern diminished economic access to the Caucasus region. However, if it were to do so, it would need to be prepared to engage militarily if Russia did proceed with troops south of Abkhazia along the Black Sea coast.
If Russia wanted to take the BTC pipeline completely out of play it would have to launch an incursion deeper into Georgia to cut off access (as opposed to the bombing they've done, which at most only temporarily disrupts the supply line). Were the Russians to do this it would get even more attention from Europe and the United States, neither of which wants to be left even more dependent on Russian oil and gas supplies than they are now.
August 9, 2008 8:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
The kos diary linked above provides the best background information on the conflict. He's dead on from what I recall of hundreds of posts worth of discussions with an American woman married to a Georgian and living in Tblisi at the time of the "rose revolution".
American Dreamer should take some time to read Jerome's take on the situation.
Let's get one goddam thing straight. There are no good guys in this conflict and Tblisi started the latest mess in order to gain NATO status. The citizens of the two areas claimed by Georgia are by and large RUSSIAN and other ethnic minorities who have favored an alliance with Russia, NOT Georgia, since the break-up of the Soviet Union.
This conflict does go far beyond the immediately involved regions and even the pragmatic Israelis who have supplied arms and (retired) military/security advisors to Georgia are not taking diplomatic sides yet because they want Russian cooperation vis a vis Iran. Aside from the "diplomatic" initiatives through the UN, Israel has great concerns about Russia supplying Iran with advanced anti-aircraft missile systems. Debkafile reports that Israeli advisors to Saakashvili are warning that the Russian military can devastate Georgian forces. Haaretz has just reported that Israel has completely halted all arms sales to Georgia.
The Israelis have just picked sides and guess what, it ain't OURS. Saakashvili should have seen that one coming months ago when the Israelis stopped supplying him with offensive weaponry for use in South Ossetia.
For those who think that the BTC pipeline is involved...yes it is altho Russia does have more thirsty customers other than Europe for it's gas and oil reserves. If this conflict continues to escalate, there is great concern that the portion of the BTC pipeline that transits Georgia can be attacked by separatist elements within Georgia. There are plenty of them and even more in the notorious terrorist/warlord haven of the Pankisi gorge.
The Israelis also have future ambitions that involve the BTC pipeline; namely to build pipelines carrying crude and gas from Ceyhan along the Med seabed to their port of Ashkelon. The crude would then go overland to the Red Sea port of Eiliat for loading into tankers bound for Asia.
The Turkish portion of the BTC was sabotaged last week by PKK separatists. The Turks are scared shitless about the conflict spreading within Turkey and some are counseling Turkish mediation between the parties a la the role they are playing re Israel and Syria.
What a fucking mess this is. If reports of Georgian tanks moving to close the Roki tunnel between South and North Ossetia are true, Putin who is in North Ossetia, could call down some serious hurt on the Georgian forces.
August 9, 2008 9:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
lally: I am glad to take you up on your suggestion that I read Jerome's take on the situation. As I think I noted, I haven't yet had time to check out the many good links included in this thread.
I didn't mean to imply this is a good guy/bad guy situation--just sharing some thoughts on how the Russians might conceivably be looking at the situation.
I find it unlikely that Georgia would have provoked this so as to get into NATO, though. Georgia was already engaged in a formal process leading to its being considered for NATO membership within a few years.
This is not to say they have engaged in no acts of provocation of late--just that I doubt their government would have deliberately sought a provocation for the purpose of getting into NATO, which has its own accession protocol it is unlikely to circumvent with a speeded-up decision.
The sense I have had has been that had things continued on the course they were on, Georgia had a decent chance of getting into NATO through the ongoing process they were already engaged in. EU membership was far, far less likely and very possibly not something that is or was ever going to happen. But NATO membership for Georgia is something that key Western nations have seen as beneficial to the West.
OTOH, the current Georgian government has engaged in a lot of politically undisciplined behavior. It is entirely capable of getting/remaining hotheaded and foolish about anything having to do with the Russians.
August 9, 2008 9:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
I find it difficult, if not impossible to believe that any responsible, rational person would suppose that the United States -- as currently and corruptly misgoverned -- should do anything to intervene in a situation we (1) typically do not understand; (2) where we have no significant national interests at stake; (3) where we have no moral stature lending credence to our hypocritical pontifications; and(4) especially when we have absolutely no economic, political, or military resources available to do anything effective in any event.
As President (and former General of the Army) Dwight Eisenhower used to counsel impetuous bureaucratic meddlers in the affairs of other nations: "Don't just do something. Stand there!" I predict a lot of huffing and puffing -- but mostly just standing around impotently -- by the American government regarding this situation in the Caucasus. Good thing, too.
It might also help to remember former President George H. W. Bush encouraging the Shiites and Kurds to rebel against Saddam Hussein and then deciding to think better of actually invading Iraq when things didn't work out as planned. Too bad Deputy Dubya didn't learn from his father regarding events and significant people in Iraq. But as his discredited regime winds down in derision and utter failure, perhaps wiser heads around him (excluding Dick Cheney, of course) have made Eisenhower's trenchant point understandable to the dyslexic dwarf chimpanzee.
As a victim/veteran of the Nixon-Kissinger Fig Leaf Contingent (Vietnam 1970-1972) I know better than most what awful things can happen when the bungling, blundering Lunatic Leviathan decides it has had enough of just standing around "looking" stupid and decides to "do" something unnecessary and disastrous just to remove all doubt. If we "do nothing" at least others might have a reason to suspect us of thinking things through for a change.
The entire world knows that we have shot our wad (and that of our next two generations) in Iraq and Afghaninstan. The current "leader" of Georgia picked the wrong time to start a self-interested fight with Russia and then bet on a rescue by George Armstrong Custer Bush, currently surrounded at his own Little Big Horn and more concerned with saving his own stupid ass than any other stupid ass half a world away. A bad bet by one sure loser on another.
August 9, 2008 10:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
First, take a good LOOK at a map of the world. We've been MESSING in Russia's backyard. Georgia is simply a pawn for us to encircle and checkmate Russia, and Russia's use of energy to launch itself as a new geopolitical power instead of the decimated giant plagued by breadlines that we left them. Georgia, Ukraine, and assorted "colored revolutions" have been US projects from the very start. Even Israel has a hand in this attack, and yes, do acknowledge the REALITY that Georgia FIRST launched an attack on Thursday that left hundreds of South Ossetians dead.
http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=1358
The Reality is that should Puerto Rico decide to confront the US by turning to Russia, hosting Russian military bases etc., it would be just as intolerable for the US.
Countries and nations watch very carefully their own backyard, that is the geopolitical reality.
If you want to throw your support behind Georgia and ache for a confrontation with Russia, fine, but don't be a low-information voter. The NGOs that instigated these colored revolutions are CIA fronts, as is their propaganda. This is a plain fact. There's a lot of money in this business as well, as Randy Scheumann would tell you. Take sides if you will, but first acquaint yourself with the geopolitical reality. Know your government's game plan wrt Russia, understand Russia's own counter strategy to propel its own interests (its integration with Europe), and then TRY to see the implications of a Cold-War resurgence for the elections this November. Which candidate would be favored by voters to confront the Russian bogeyman, when economic issues are put on the backburner?
Georgia got the green light from Bush to instigate the provocation of retaking South Ossetia. WHY??? It can't prevail against a militarily superior Russia. NATO will never get itself dragged into this potential war. From a domestic political perspective, what does this achieve?
I've decided to "retire" from the TPM forum because of personal attacks, I reckon more would be coming my way with this post, but seriously, read OUTSIDE of the NYTimes and all the news media that propagate a certain point of view and see the BIGGER picture.
August 9, 2008 11:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Also, the title is misleading, Russia has not invaded Georgia, not yet. It has bombed Georgia and retaken South Ossetia, but technically, it has not invaded Georgia, but it *could* in the near future if mediation fails. Georgia has recklessly invaded the break away province of South Ossetia which has tried to unite with North Ossetia in Russia in the past. If this skirmish escalates further, this might be the excuse Russia is looking for to severely punish Georgia for attempting to outflank Russia.
The reality is that NATO has neither appetite nor means to intervene on behalf of Georgia.
Oil infrastructure may be what Europe cares about most, but it is just as happy to do business with Russia if Georgia backs down.
August 9, 2008 11:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
AD.
I wasn't referring to you when I made my comment about good/guys/bad guys. But I can see why you might have thought so. Clumsy of me.
I have been very angry about how our fab media is presenting this whole thing. You'd think the Russians were bombing Tbilisi. Nothing about the disputed nature of the territories involved. People hear/read "pro American/Western" so-an-so vs the Russkies and that's all they need in order to start taking sides.
As far as the NATO business goes, I believe the rationale was/is that both Abkhasia and South Ossetia would have to be secured as far as their "officially" belonging to Georgia in order for them to be admitted officially. I believe that one of the prerequisites is that the aspiring member nation respect the sovereignity of neighbors' borders. Are those areas actually, legally considered a part of Georgia? It's confusing.
No one seems to understand Saakashvili's timing. There was speculation in a Jerusalem Post article that our election could be a factor in that Obama might change the diplomatic equation so strike while the lame ducks are still in charge. McCain and Saakashvili are buddies.
One thing tho, we have lots of European/Western company in telling the Russians to leave South Ossetia.
Or what? I wonder.
That region is so wild and ungovernable...more no-man's land than not.
This whole business makes me nervous given the current environment and great potential for instability. We don't need this complication and escalation.
August 9, 2008 11:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, LOOK at the McCain-Georgia connection. Wake up.
August 9, 2008 11:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
And Georgia has ben doing the planning for the invasion of South Ossetia since last year. From the Debka link:
"Last year, the Georgian president commissioned from private Israeli security firms several hundred military advisers, estimated at up to 1,000, to train the Georgian armed forces in commando, air, sea, armored and artillery combat tactics. They also offer instruction on military intelligence and security for the central regime. Tbilisi also purchased weapons, intelligence and electronic warfare systems from Israel.
These advisers were undoubtedly deeply involved in the Georgian army’s preparations to conquer the South Ossetian capital Friday."
August 9, 2008 11:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Qwerty, it sounds like you have looked into Putin's eyes and seen his good soul.
How can you claim that Georgia "invaded" a province that has been a part of Georgia since the breakup of the USSR?
Should South Ossetia be a part of Georgia or Russia? That sounds to me like UN/US/diplomatic issue to resolve.
Russia has taken the military step; not Georgia.
Russia has clearly invaded the sovereign territory of another country (please don't bring up Iraq). No matter the oil or your poorly constructed Puerto Rico analogy we all know Putin's stated goals of returning Russia to the glory of the USSR and this is his first military gamble.
The West must call Putin's gamble or the cold war will be once again in full swing as Putin will know that he can act without consequence.
What exactly should we do? We should have NATO move troops and tanks into Georgia ( we still have plenty of our European tank divisions). We should advise Russia to withdraw from South Ossetia within 48 hours or we will advance to retake the province. NATO should also state that the long term "ownership" of the area can be resolved diplomatically.
Putin's gamble is that he can intimidate NATO into not helping Georgia now which means any chance Georgia has of entering NATO later would meaningless.
I have spent my years in both the military and civilian service in DC and elsewhere so I do know a little bit about this chess game.
If you believe that we should just let this go then you have just sacrificed Georgia's democratic political future to one of a Soviet style satellite.
August 9, 2008 11:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Qwerty, it sounds like you have looked into Putin's eyes and seen his good soul."
This is precisely the type of attack I see coming. If you're not "for us, you're against us." If I'm not against Russia, I'm FOR Russia.
So what do you think of Serbia's "invasion" of Kosovo? Was that Serbia trying to preserve the integrity of its territory?
You can't prtend to apply double standards and then ignore the hypocrisy when it is pointed out to you.
But what do I expect from someone who thinks in stark b/w Bush terms -"for us or against us"?
August 9, 2008 11:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
Did you even bother to READ other links or are you content to be a low-information warmonger? We *should* send in tanks to assist a belligerent ally, an ally who broke the detente and launched a pre-emptive attack on South Ossetia, an ally of McCain????
I guess DailyKos, by hosting Jerome a Paris, is also a Putin mouthpiece.
Instead of disputing the facts raised, you decide to impugn the character and objectivity of the author to debase the debate.
This sort of attack disgusts me, and I see more and more of this coming from so-called "Democrats".
August 10, 2008 12:03 AM | Reply | Permalink
I have read ALL the links and if you think the "Putin's eyes" was a personal attack then you are mistaken. It was a good and quick analogy of your stated positions. Why do you believe that we owe Putin his own backyard? That is pure 1960's cold war thinking.
Have you paid any attention to the Russian involvement in Georgian internal affairs that has gone on for YEARS?
You start off your first post by playing the "I'm always personally attacked" which makes it very convenient for you to play that card against anyone that disagrees with you.
Your for us/against us comment was cute.
Do you really believe that Putin is not the ruler of Russia?
Do you think he would not use anything available to both keep and expand his power over others?
Again, its late so I am off.
August 10, 2008 12:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
Spoken like John Bolton. You don't "owe" Russia its backyard, EVERY nation in the world is owed its backyard, period. No country in the world would tolerate a hostile, festering presence right across its border indefinitely. You don't need neighboring nations to hold hands, you need them to mutually agree to REFRAIN from territorial provocations and infringing on eachother's interests. The right thing to do is to DEFUSE any potential areas for conflict via appropriate crisis resolution under the aegis of interntional law, NOT to instigate "incidents". The alternative is war, and only warmongers believe that escalation and mischief is a good thing to "show the Russians".
August 10, 2008 11:33 AM | Reply | Permalink
One more comment to QWERTY:
If I was the leader of Georgia and knowing Putin and his actions towards Georgia over the last few years I would have paid for all the Israeli help I could get. I mean come on...we are selling F16's to Pakistan. What have we done for Georgia? Nothing.
Putin has staked his claim on Georgia. Ossetia is just an excuse.
And in one more comment about your lousy Puerto Rico analogy, I would just say: Cuban Missile Crisis
I'm heading to bed and hoping that tomorrow brings a Russian retreat. If not and we do not respond then we will once again be back into a full blown cold war.
August 10, 2008 12:04 AM | Reply | Permalink
It's Qwerty, not QWERTY. And yes, when you wake up, do book yourself a ticket to Georgia to fight for "democracy" there. I don't want my tax dollars involved. Fair?
August 10, 2008 12:15 AM | Reply | Permalink
Face it, there's no "true" democracy when you have the CIA sponsoring the Rose Revolution in Georgia. Did they also bring over Diebold machines??? It's either a US pawn or a Russian pawn they were putting in place during that last "election". It's ridiculous to ra-ra about how we're "letting democracy be squashed in Georgia" when it's really if we'd be leaving our corrupt puppet blowing in the wind and let Russia put in one of theirs.
August 10, 2008 12:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm sorry I offended you by capitalizing your alias. I'm sure that can be very annoying.
Having been to the USSR and then Putin's Russia I can assure you that Georgia would much rather be our puppet.
August 10, 2008 12:25 AM | Reply | Permalink
It appears to be true that Georgians would prefer to aline themselves with the west. But nationalism based on ethnicity is a tough problem to deal with as countries fragment into smaller nation states. We've dealt with that problem in Yugoslavia and are dealing with it in Iraq with the Kurds. As is Turkey with their Kurdish area.
Isn't it true that South Ossetia has voted overwhelmingly a few times to join Russia? Do you dispute the authenticity of those votes? The consensus I've seen is that the will of the Ossetian people was accurately reflected in those votes though I would be interested in reading a link which claims they were fraudulent.
It seems as though the question comes down to this. Do we support forcing the ethnic enclave of Ossetia to remain a province of Georgia or do we allow it to join with its sister Ossetian ethnic enclave, North Ossetia, and Russia as it seems the Ossetians desire.
August 10, 2008 2:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
You are susceptible to manipulation if you need to envision guys in white and black hats in geopolitics. Georgia would rather join NATO but S. Ossetia would rather join N. Ossetia which is in Russia. So is S. Ossetia wrong to try to "break away" and is Georgia wrong to disrespect the will of the S. Ossetians? And is it in Russia's interest to let Georgia join NATO with a full military base, was it in US's interest for Cuba to host Soviet nuclear subs?
You will *always* prefer "your" guys in charge, and that *always* leads to corruption and devastation, from Marcos in the Philippines to Pinochet in Chile. Iraq under Saddam was *our* ally, he was supplied and encouraged by us to attack Iran. The result is today's blowback.
As Desidero thinks it is clever to "keep other nations" in check but he doesn't seem to realize the implications of playing such hegemonic imperialist "games", as if Russia would passively allow themselves be outflanked. The first rule is that EVERY nation would fight back against such US interference in their affairs, and such actions would lead to reactions, which could be devastating for the civilians caught in between.
Frankly, DETENTE is not a bad thing. As the sole superpower, US has proven it cannot refrain from imperialistic exploits, eg. invading other nations. Ex Neo-Con Francis Fukuyama's "The End of History" proposed an idyllic, naive vision of Pax America and of course History triumphs by repeating itself re imperial abuses. A multi-polar world might bring about a more balanced assertion (or better still, restrained use) of power.
In the end, the NeoCon Project for a New American Century is still unfolding, the Iraqi mess notwithstanding, and now the spotlight has shifted to Russia.
Again, look carefully at the implications of this showdown for McCain vs. Obama. Nothing happens by chance, least of all the timing of such provocations. McCain is up to his ears in Georgia.
August 10, 2008 11:17 AM | Reply | Permalink
The previous post is a reply to Florida Democrat of course. Glad to see a Cool Head, oceankat.
August 10, 2008 11:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
Lots of disinfo aka psyops floating around....
This article from 3/2002 is an excellent overview of the conflict(s). Context is everything.:
"Editor’s Note: Six years ago, just six months after the 9/11 attacks as George W. Bush’s “war on terror” was still taking shape, we ran the following article about Bush’s decision to send U.S. troops into the nation of Georgia, supposedly to help hunt down Islamic terrorists hiding in the rugged Pankisi Gorge.
Much has changed since – Russian President Vladimir Putin and Georgian President Eduard Schevardnadze have been replaced and Bush refocused his attention on invading and occupying Iraq – but in light of the flare-up of border hostilities between Russia and Georgia, we are republishing the article with its valuable background."
http://www.consortiumnews.com/2008/080808b.html
We currently OWN Georgia in the sense that we (our military) can come and go and operate at will in and above their country with no questions asked by the sovreign government of el Presidente Saakashvili.
August 10, 2008 2:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
There will be no "true" democracy, there will be only greater or lesser levels of democracy. And under the Russian influence it will be lesser.
We have been messing in Russia's back yard for 60 years now, and for good reason. Russia greatly extended that back yard westward 60 years ago, but was also active in pushing its back yard in other directions during that time. But this is a complicated world, and we're better off pushing for Russia to stay in its borders and get everyone else more self-reliant and under EU, UN and other types of freer forms of organization.
August 10, 2008 2:24 AM | Reply | Permalink
"Freer" forms of organization??? Wow, this boggles the mind...free like the peoples under Pinochet, under Marcos, under Saddam before we got rid of him, etc.... look up wiki for the list of "free and democratic" leaders we've supported with arms, drugs and cash.... and I have a Freedom Bridge to sell you.
August 10, 2008 11:22 AM | Reply | Permalink
See what it means to mess around in Russia's backyard, and what our dear puppet, um, ally Georgia is doing to "liberate" South Ossetia:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4493620.ece
August 10, 2008 12:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
I am in agreement on your examples of imperialist and/or corporate corruption of governments by the US. Comparing Georgia to our other "Freedom Bridge" endeavors is taking the Georgian government out of context.
Georgian history in separating themselves from Russia and their internally strong democratic values present a different argument. In addition, this is not a conflict of surrogates when Putin directly invades with troops.
Even though oil and gas may be driving our interests in Georgia; Putin has violated the "rules" by using direct military intervention. That means that NATO must stand him down and return the situation to status quo. After that, more intense diplomatic efforts should be promised to resolve the conflict.
I would venture that the average Russian feels as anti-Putin and anti-invasion as we feel about Iraq. If Putin's background were different and his aims for a new Russia (USSR) were not on the table then perhaps the necessity to confront this action would be slightly diminished.
Unfortunately, Putin's aims have been clearly stated and followed through by his actions both internally in Russia and by his renewal of Russian military activity throughout the world.
Putin has consolidated power within Russia on a scale not seen since Stalin. He is much more subtle and less willing to use brutal force than Stalin but his consolidation of power has been just as complete.
The argument that the timing of this incursion is a result of the lame duck status of the Bush administration does not hold water. Bush has nothing to lose at this point in acting to protect his corporate owners’ interests in this area. Any new administration would be much less willing to immediately move into a confrontation with Putin. Putin is instead counting on the weariness of the US public for foreign involvement as a result of Iraq and Afghanistan.
Despite what we know of our history in supporting corrupt regimes for our corporate owners the rest of the western world population still holds up the US (other than Bush and Iraq) as the world leader for moral democratic leadership. It is in the best interests of our corporate masters to keep that image of moral US leadership.
So, no matter the intrigue and backroom chessboard moves that our leaders think they have mastered it is still in our and the world's interest to control Putin.
That is why we and preferably NATO must directly confront the situation in Georgia and intervene militarily to stop Putin's aggression.
August 10, 2008 1:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
So many strawmen, so little time.
You make the mistake of imposing your own thoughts on another people, the Russians, and no doubt about the rest of the world.
That's the mistake a lot of Americans make, even those who try to be "good" - they truly believe the sh*t they get beamed 24/7, they really believe they *must* be the good guys because they *are* the good guys.
They believe that Iraqis are really better off with Saddam gone, that's so hilarious.
Like I said, unless you are capable of putting away the b/w hats, you're not capable of EVER understanding the rest of the world and what it thinks of America and Americans.
Truly, speak to any taxi driver from Budapest to Berlin to Bombay, they would have a more unblinkered view of the world.
There's no "good" or "bad" Putin/Russian leader - to the Americans, a "good" Russian leader is Gorbachev/Yeltsin/Gaider, someone like Saakasvili. Drunk, corrupt, keeps Russia hungry, weak, broken.
To the Russians, they prefer someone who STOPS selling their best assets to Chevron or BP at firesale prices and who puts bread on their table, defends ethnic Russians, and yes, make them proud about the strength of their country once again.
In other words, everything Americans want from their leaders.
It's amazing to me that so many Americans are not capable of seeing that, "good" is relative, what's "good" to Americans isn't what's "good" for a lot of nations and peoples.
The propaganda does work, that's for sure.
August 10, 2008 11:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
Russian propaganda has worked on you. Yes, taxi drivers in Budapest just think all Russians are shit. Many Russians think atrocities in Chechnya give them self-respect.
August 11, 2008 1:32 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, you're the one who is SOLD on the Freedom Bridge. At least I have a modicum of sense left to recognize geopolitical reality. You people can scream about the Cuban Missile Crisis but think encroaching on Russia's backyard should not elicit any response from Russia and that the Russians would welcome NATO with sweets and dancing children, no doubt. That is the most imbecilic train of thought from what supposedly "logical" people on this site.
How do you think Russians really think about Chechnya? The same as Georgians think about South Ossetia, stupid.
August 11, 2008 6:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
Again, when I say taxi drivers think America is crap, it doesn't mean they don't think Russia is crap. I can't fathom how basic logical thought processing is beyond you.
I said, x said America is crap, you say, "are you saying x thinks Russia is great"???
Yeah, I wear black hat, you wear white hat, 4 legs good, 2 legs bad, ok?
August 11, 2008 7:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
No wonder the NeoCons have you lot eating out of their hands.
August 11, 2008 7:04 AM | Reply | Permalink
Another numbnut enthralled with what he thinks of as his own brilliance. Shine on you crazy diamond.
Save your "you people" for your speech at the United Nations. I'm sure earth is waiting to be tele-transported to a better reality on your planet.
August 11, 2008 12:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
You're quite a demented person aren't you, Desidero? I mean, jesus, look at your posts. Hey, maybe let that little neocon in you out for a bit of fresh air.
August 11, 2008 12:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
And don't bother answering, too tiresome to come back here to check out your gnashing of teeth and tearing of hair that someone would DARE to think America isn't the shining beacon of FREEDOM that brings prosperity, liberty, dancing children in the streets all over the worshipful earth.
August 11, 2008 12:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Cool, boring people on the other planet are you?
August 11, 2008 1:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
The situation is more complex than immediately meets the eye. If you listen to Brzezinski, McCain (no friends of each other), Kristol or George Will, you would think the only issue is Russian domination of the Caucusus. A closer examination reveals the Georgians are not well-liked by the South Ossetians and the Georgians engaged in the initial provoctive action. It does appear that the Russian response has been way out of whack probably to force Georgia in to full submission with a view to establishing control, rights over or interest in oil going through pipelines in the country. Instead of taking sides based on which American said what, I suggest studying the situation. I doubt this is the equivalent of the Nazi attack on the Sudetenland. By the same token, I don't think the Russians military response has been proportionate. Nobody's hands are clean in this instance.
August 11, 2008 2:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
The people in South Ossetia have been pushing this a long long time with Russia's help. Imagine Canada deciding that people in Minnesota, Wisconsin and Michigan deserved honorary citizenship and Canadian protection. 10 years later, maybe you might have enough of the situation?
August 11, 2008 3:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
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