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OMFG: Fellow POW says he will NOT Vote McCain-Must READ
Wow.Wow.Wow. Here is the link http://www.military.com/opinion/0,15202,164859_2,00.html
This guy just destroyed McCain. I think he can talk, because not only was he a Vietnam Vet,but he was imprisoned longer than McCain-8 vs 6 yrs. Here are key quotes. (The quote thinga machig doesn't work well for me,but these are direct quotes)
"
John was a wild man. He was funny, with a quick wit and he was intelligent. But he was intent on breaking every USNA regulation in our 4 inch thick USNA Regulations book. And I believe he must have come as close to his goal as any midshipman who ever attended the Academy. John had me "coming around" to his room frequently during my plebe year. And on one occasion""
In fact he barely managed to graduate, standing 5th from the bottom of his 800 man graduating class. I and many others have speculated that the main reason he did graduate was because his father was an Admiral, and also his grandfather, both U.S. Naval Academy graduates."
1) Was he tortured for 5 years? No. He was subjected to torture and maltreatment during his first 2 years, from September of 1967 to September of 1969. After September of 1969 the Vietnamese stopped the torture and gave us increased food and rudimentary health care. Several hundred of us were captured much earlier. I got there April 20, 1965 so my bad treatment period lasted 4 1/2 years. President Ho Chi Minh died on September 9, 1969, and the new regime that replaced him and his policies was more pragmatic. They realized we were worth a lot as bargaining chips if we were alive. And they were right because eventually Americans gave up on the war and agreed to trade our POW's for their country. A damn good trade in my opinion! But my point here is that John allows the media to make him out to be THE hero POW, which he knows is absolutely not true, to further his political goals."
Wow Wow Wow Wow
"John was awarded a Silver Star and Purple Heart for heroism and wounds in combat. This heroism has been played up in the press and in his various political campaigns. But it should be known that there were approximately 600 military POW's in Vietnam. Among all of us, decorations awarded have recently been totaled to the following: Medals of Honor - 8, Service Crosses - 42, Silver Stars - 590, Bronze Stars - 958 and Purple Hearts - 1,249. John certainly performed courageously and well
."
What? McCain didn't get the highest medal? Whada ya know
"
furthermore believe that having been a POW is no special qualification for being President of the United States. The two jobs are not the same, and POW experience is not, in my opinion, something I would look for in a presidential candidate"
"
I can verify that John has an infamous reputation for being a hot head. He has a quick and explosive temper that many have experienced first hand. Folks, quite honestly that is not the finger I want next to that red button
."
Well, I thinks that sum that up. Just WOW. This must be made viral.
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Comments (26)
There are those, Greag Palast is one I think, who suggest, citing unattributed comments of his shipmates on the USS Forrestal, that McCain "wet started" his jet causing a missile on the jet behind his to fire into McCain's jet and that McCain subsequently dropped tow bombs from his jet onto the deck. The reports also indicate that McCain was airlifted off the ship.
August 19, 2008 11:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
As far as i can tell, this allegation is simply not true.
Check the diagram in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_USS_Forrestal_fire
and look at the talk page.
There are more than enough things which are true about McCain to demonstrate why he would make a poor president.
August 19, 2008 12:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hmmm, there doesn't seem to be much here to go "Wow, wow, wow" about. What's the takeaway? John McCain was only tortured for two years instead of five, and while he won medals for heroism and bravery he didn't win the highest medal? That's a pretty stupid approach to take if you are trying to inflict some actual damage on him.
The fact that McCain was a really crappy student at the USNA should get a bit more play. But it must be admitted that a lot of Americans just don't care. The fact that McCain was a wild and lazy dumbass as a young man who spent all his time getting wasted and getting laid is part of the McCain Myth: that he sowed a lot of wild oats before discovering his true patriotic calling in battle and becoming a war hero, Senator, etc., etc.
I suggest we spend more time on different themes: that McCain is a very rich and out-of-touch golddigger, who doesn't understand the needs of ordinary Americans, who dumped his first wife to marry upward into a fortune, who peddles influence and parleyed his wartime exploits a lucrative career. He is also a slightly deranged and ignorant loose cannon, who is more of a foreign policy extremist and dangerous radical, who lacks a presidential temperament, and who can't be trusted with the security of Americas children.
John McCain:
Out-of-touch millionaire elitist
Greedy opportunist
Dangerous Radical
Right-wing extremist
Temperamental and unbalanced nut
Can't protect America's children
August 19, 2008 12:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
"What's the takeaway?"
Perhaps that McCain has exaggerated his experience and that the media, in general, has fairly consistently played along.
August 19, 2008 12:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
He might have exaggerated his experience. But since 99.9 % of Americans have never been tortured for their country, it seems ridiculously petty to get on a guy for only being tortured for two years instead of five. Almost every American is going to think that a mere two years of heroic endurance of torture is still pretty damn heroic. Pursuing this line is like snarking that a WWII vet was only shot twice by the Nazis instead of five times.
It would be better to focus on the things about McCain that are actually bad rather than the things that are good, but just not quite as good as previously advertised.
August 19, 2008 12:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Dan I think you should read the whole article. The guy cites his injuries and the rate at which Vietnam POWS are dying off, his hairtrigger temper, his chameleon like willingness to change every position he's ever held and kowtowing to reprehensible religious bigots as other reasons not to support him.
August 20, 2008 12:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
Dan,
My thoughts exactly. I'm gonna risk Billy Glad accusing me of becoming your personal "Amen corner". Your thoughts often echo mine, except that you capture them more effectively in writting than do I.
August 19, 2008 12:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
Amen! :)
August 19, 2008 12:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
"McCain is a very rich and out-of-touch gold digger, who doesn't understand the needs of ordinary Americans"
Exactly so. McCain's Father and Grandfather were Admirals, which explains both why he didn't flunk out of the academy and also why he was selected for flight school. He personally deserved neither.
I fought just off the coast of North (yes North) Vietnam while I was in the Navy 1972-1973 when Nixon was conducting his "bomb them into submission" Linebacker operations, so I have some credibility on this issue.
I also served on the Flag ship of Admiral Stansfield Turner (a complete turd, universally loathed by every single man on our ship).
Admirals and Generals are treated like royalty in the military. In just about every way you can imagine. Their children are pampered to say the least. McCain is no exception, in fact, the pampering extended one more generation than usual.
Interesting McCain Blog:
http://boards.msn.com/MSNBCboards/thread.aspx?threadid=704336&boardsparam=Page%3d1
August 19, 2008 3:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Waht do we really know about Songbird John McCain?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRvXEsW4Fgg
August 19, 2008 12:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
Is it cool for democrats becoming Swiftboaters now? Here's the thing - these kinds of attacks are not only disgraceful, they are also incredibly stupid because they allow McCain to play to the crowd for symptahy points. Swiftboating worked against John Kerry because he pissed many veterans and folks in the GOP off with his anti-war stance when he returned from Vietnam. It worked against Kerry because he was a Democrat. The GOP doesn't buy into attacks on military service (or lack thereof) of their own - look at GWB's Texas Air National Guard story .
John McCain's service was honorable - just leave it at that. Attack McCain on the things that are truly dishonorable like his being GWB's lapdog, his 180 degree turn from the maverick he was in 2000, his hypocritical ties with lobbyists, etc.
August 19, 2008 12:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
No No NO. I am not saying he was a crappy student or a drunk should disqualify him, what should is what Wesley Clarke said and people were up in arms- oh how could he kinda crap? Here you have a guy who knows McCain and stayed longer in POW, saying he would not want his hand near the red button AND being a POW does not qualify you as president. I could care less if he was bar hopping as a teen.
August 19, 2008 12:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Now you've got it! It is absolutely true that being a POW does not qualify one to be president, and that with McCain's erratic temperament and poor judgment, we don't want him anywhere near The Button.
But the POW you quoted just sounds like he is speaking from sour grapes because he had it slightly worse in the prison camp than John McCain. That kind of pettiness isn't going to win a lot of people over. Neither is the claim that John McCain "only" won a Purple Heart and Silver Star, which comes off as an insult to every Purple Heart and Silver Star winner in America.
August 19, 2008 1:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
I didn't see the sour grapes. They guy doesn't like the fact that McCain acts as if he was the only POW who matters, but other than that, he had a lot of good things to say about McCain as a person. He just reiterated what Clark said, that being a POW doesn't, ipso facto, qualify someone to be president, and that, in his personal opinion, McCain does not show the judgment or temperament to be Commander in Chief. I think if one of McCain's classmates and fellow POW says this AND General Wesley Clark, who has distinguished himself in the military, says it, there's good reason to listen. But, moreover, when someone who shared years of captivity as a POW with McCain says it, can you doubt that this man knows McCain better than just about anyone - and certainly a whole lot better than all the pundits wrapped up in a happy little self-satisfied ball of blab?
I think this is something meaningful, and I'd love to see this guy out on the campaign trail telling it as he sees it. And I'm damned curious what McCain's handlers will do about it, since they can't very well attack the guy, but if this gets traction, or the guy ends up on talk shows, they'll have to respond. Would love to see them squirm.
August 19, 2008 5:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
That says it right there short and sweet. Temperament. That is what needs to be put out there. Along the lines of celebrity. McCain loose cannon, McCain wants fights and force before diplomacy, McCain jokes about killing Iranians (very unpresidential). McCain is dangerous.
August 20, 2008 12:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
He's not the only one to say McCain lacks the temperament to be president. Sen. Thad Cochrane, R-Miss said the same thing.
August 20, 2008 12:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
Pat Buchanan said McCain will make Cheney look like Ghandi. http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=U-ptjl3ZQwM
August 20, 2008 1:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
The point with McCain's medal package is that it in no way suggests service beyond the average. Get wounded, even if it's because you didn't have your legs in the right position when you punched out over enemy territory, and you get a purple heart. Get significantly injured while in captivity and you get a purple heart. Just about everybody got a Silver Star coming out of the camps.
Recently, the McCain people released the awards and decs list, along with where they were awarded. John McCain has an unbroken record of receiving the standard minimum package every time he had a permanent chage of duty station. Overall, his career could charitably be called lackluster, much in the same manner that his legislative career is, thus far, spectacularly undistinguished.
Everyone who has served in the military knows that there are awards and decorations that are given for exceptional service or actions, and the same awards and decs can be handed out just for being there. One sort neither increases nor decreases the value of the other.
I served in the US Air Force for 26 years; had a few opportunities to get shot at, either officially or unofficially; was even on a bus the Kurds blew up (with a US-provided land mine) during Anchor Guard. None of it makes me a hero. I did my job according to my oaths of enlistment and commission (depending n the date). None of it qualifies me as an expert on national security. None of it qualifies me for President. None of it entitles me to call a political opponent a traitor and scream "foul" if somebody calls me on it.
Related question: If Senator McCain truly is qualified, why has his campaign become a mixture of "I'm not Obama" and "I'm a war hero who has never stopped fighting against my country's enemies"? Platitudes and "My opponent is not one of us" would not be needed if he had some real qualifications.
He wrote it after his 2000 loss. He should be President because he wants to be President. Not for any reason other than his own ambition, but because he wants the job.
August 20, 2008 5:50 AM | Reply | Permalink
The man spent 4 years in the House and 22 years in the US Senate. He is not running on his POW record alone. And there is PLENTY of topical substantive stuff to attack him for in that 26 years. To try to diminish his military service by saying he wasn't tortured the whole time he was a POW or to say it is irrelevant is beyond contempt. I have little respect for John McCain, but the fact that he served his country in the military is not a valid basis for attack. It looks pathetic and he will use such attacks to play sympathetic to the media.
Bill Clinton was a draft-dodger pot-smoking hippie who beat two military men - one a WWII hero - not by diminishing their service record, but by detailing his vision for the country. Maybe the message we should be sending is it's not what these men did for their country in the past, but what Obama wants to do going forward. Or we could just do viral with meaningless tripe like this chain e-mail that plays into McCain's hand.
August 20, 2008 9:14 AM | Reply | Permalink
Your reasoning is flawed.
There is not a lot of evidence that McCain served honorably. There is evidence that he was held in captivity and survived.
McCain does not have the temperment or mindset to lead and his naval record demonstrates that. Just as he was accepted to the academy and allowed to be a pilot based on being a legacy of admirals. We could have expected a quick ascent through the ranks based on the same legacy qualifications had McCain shown the judgment, integrity and character needed for men to be in command and responsibility for thousands of mens lives.
McCain did just the opposite and he flouted it as well. There are numerous incidences that demostate his cavalier disregard for rules and regulations and his unparalled in the history of the academy asininity to flout his rebelliousness.
This country does not need to have another Eddie Haskell in the White House.
Besides, McCain has written in his own words that he is seeking the Presidency for ambitions sake and nothing more. He WROTE that! He is just as cocksure and willfully ignorant of the consequences of his actions today as he was when he was in the naval academy.
McCain doesn't give a shyt about responsibility, integrity, duty, or service to country he just wants to demonstrate that even a complete failure can have the most powerful political position in the world just like he graduated from one of the most prestigious militiary institutions without regard for the long standing excellence of the academy.
McCain thumbs his nose at all the things the Navy, Naval Academy and Presidency stand for and he merely wants to do that on a global stage.
Let the email's begin. If the media won't tell the truth, then we need to do so.
We need to do it for the good of the country!
August 20, 2008 9:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
I rest my case :)
August 20, 2008 10:28 AM | Reply | Permalink
The only sources for "John McCain = War Hero"???
John McCain
Richard Nixon
August 19, 2008 2:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
This is the key to opening the door of the "not that great of a warrior" meme. It's not swift boating, but the idea is that military service alone doesn't entitle you to be commander in chief, not like being the son and grandson of 4 star admirals entitles you to a glamorous job in the military.
Wesley Clark said just that and got his feet held to the fire by the media. But now there's another POW, now a doctor, who also sees the Admiral's Son has no clothes. Nicknamed McNasty in boarding school, he graduated nearly last in his class but was allowed to go on to be a "top gun," probably only because he was "royalty," went on to crash 5 planes before his 6th one was shot down, and getting the shoulder injury that he implies was from torture but was actually from ejecting.
Returning to his wife who had been disabled while waiting for him, he philandered and found himself an heiress to bankroll a political career. Now he's on Ambien and at least has a prescription for anti-depressants and he would be even older than Reagan was. We can't just wonder if we want our president to be notoriously cranky and on Ambien when he gets a 3am call, we should wonder if he'll even be alive.
If McCain wants to use his veteran status to get him into office I'd like to hear some veterans support him. When I go to the VA I certainly don't hear any kind words for him, mostly because he votes against vets any time he has the opportunity. So maybe it makes sense that deployed members of the military contribute to Obama 6:1 over McCain. What doesn't make sense is how a media that supposedly has an Obama bias raked General Wesley Clark over the coals because he's saying something Songbird McCain's fellow POW agrees with.
The anti-meme is that McCain trumps up his hero-image to give him the ability to get away with hurting other returning heroes. This essay should be pushed into greater visibility to verify Gen. Clark's statement for his sake (I'd love a pundit to see that essay and say "well, I guess Gen. Clark was right"), to give the media a chance to start repeating this idea without the kneejerk "how dare you" reaction, and really start questioning McCain's character. His service is not to be belittled, he did sacrifice for his country and he was tortured, but he also exaggerated, milked it, and turned his back on his fellow warriors.
August 20, 2008 1:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
The essay is good however did you read the comments? Seems like this was written back in March or April during the primaries and most of the responses are from military and GOp folks. Unsupportive of the author.
I do think this essay would impact independents and moderate GOPr's but not the conservatives.
I think what is important here as well is that McCain received his injuries in his crash landing, not as a result of being tortured.
Tonight John King, on CNN is going to do that Revealed special and as a preview yesterday he stated 'because of his POW injuries McCain can't lift his arms to shoulder height or throw a ball"
Well that is false. He crashed a plane and was injured and then was seized and held in captivity.Being a POW is not an exercise that creates a stable mindset nor is it the type of experience anyone needs nor qualifies them to be President. To tout being tortured as a Presidential quality is absurd, it is like saying we need folks with lobotomies to become scientists. NUH-UH
King is also going to talk about another 'near-death' experience for mcCain being the Forrestal fire.
Now there is a lot of controversy about how that fire was started and for King to be creating the message that MCains character has been forged by significant traumatic events he escaped is ludicrous, especially when there is sufficient evidence to believe it was McCain's frat boy humor that started one of the worse fires and disasters in naval history.
McCain needs to be outed and he needs to be outed by people in the military!
No one in the Naval Academy is touting McCain's leadership and character. In fact, his record in the Navy and Academy was reason to NOT grant him leadership and command roles.
The military knows that he is an asshole.
The public needs to know he is nothing but an Eddie Haskell type character...nothing there to suggest that he would make a great President, be reliable or have the experience to lead.
August 20, 2008 9:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
Leave the torture/youth crap out of it. It doesn't matter and looks like whining. Go for his 90% support of Bush's failed policies vis-a-vis "maverick"...
Its the economy, stupid.
August 20, 2008 10:15 AM | Reply | Permalink
That MCCAIN is given ANY CREDIBILITY as a U.S. presidential candidate is EGREGIOUS and a CRUDE TRAVESTY! Aside from suffering a PROFOUND lack of INTELLIGENCE & JUDGEMENT, the man has NO HONOR or INTEGRITY. Merely ask his first WIFE, fellow POWs at the Hanoi Hilton and the NON-white citizens of Arizona about the quality of his MORAL CODE.
As most of his DISHONEST fellow GOP-ers, MCCAIN
ha NO policies to mitigate Americans' Economic pain except that of the WEALTHY. He's carrying forward the WORST STUPIDITY of Bush & his Zionist Thugs in every aspect of Public Policy. In the Middle East, MCCAIN feels ISRAEL can do no WRONG & Oil-rich MUSLIMS can do no RIGHT - save DIE & give ALL THEIR OIL to the U.S. Oil Companies.
In fact, NO candidate has come to the presidential
elections more DEVOID of credentials for the office than MCCAIN save BUSH! None has exhibited LESS Intelligence, Insight or Integrity. Indeed, the only QUALITY MCCAIN can show he brings to the table v. OBAMA is HIS WHITE SKIN & RACIST MANNERS.
If there is a GOD in Heaven, S/HE must see fit to PREVENT his victory & that of his Party in 2008!
August 20, 2008 1:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
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