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Drop the Grudges, People
Lots of posts and comments today about Obama being ungracious to Hillary for picking Biden, Hillary and Bill not relinquishing stardom, Obama not appreciating Hillary's help, etc., etc., etc.
In the immortal words of Rodney King: "Jesus! No more! Stop beating me!"
Somehow, some way, the Clintons and Obama have found a way to work together for the good of the country, the party and us.
People, if you really want a divided convention, you will earn every bit of my unending scorn when John McCain takes the oath of office.
Independents, you are not excused. This election, be a Democrat or be an enabler.
Democrats, you have a duty. Get on the peace train or get used to war upon war and long lines for bread.
It's Obama/Biden '08. Can you dig it?
Comments (234)
It's not being ungracious to Hillary by picking Biden.
It's simply being ungracious by being ungracious, in a number of different ways.
I'm waiting to see if the Clintons speaking is just one more way to be publicly humiliated, including policing her followers to be good obedient soldiers rather than say Obama explicitly acknowledge the divide himself and try to draw them in for once.
August 23, 2008 10:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
Please return to the station window for a valid ticket.
August 23, 2008 10:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
Tell me where the train's going first.
August 23, 2008 10:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
Ahhh baby, ya walked right into it. The Boss, in Barcelona.
This Train... Carries saints and sinners
This Train... Carries losers and winners
This Train... Carries whores and gamblers
This Train... Carries lost souls
This Train... Dreams will not be thwarted
This Train... Faith will be rewarded
This Train... Hear the steel wheels singin'
This Train... Bells of freedom ringin'
This Train... Carries broken-hearted
This Train... Thieves and sweet souls departed
This Train... Carries fools and kings
This Train... All aboard
August 24, 2008 1:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
Climb aboard the Friendship Train
August 24, 2008 4:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
Get on board the Love Train
So many trains to choose...
August 24, 2008 4:15 AM | Reply | Permalink
All the same train, baby. I just wanna be in the same car as the O'Jays.
August 24, 2008 4:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry Rip. You are a tough and consistent advocate for Senator Obama and there is a place for you in this campaign season and an important one. But I don't know what purpose you believe this post serves. You are who you are and you do what you do. Your posts, all of them, speak for themselves. You should continue to advocate, but I will not be taking any advice from you, respectfully. I'm a Democrat, so are many people who supported Hillary, and most of us, including yours truly didn't write a post about Hillary being dissed, and even more of us, including yours truly will vote for the Democrat, period and amen. Telling me to get on a train or else doesn't do it, sorry. With respect, my vote and my money counts just as much as yours, and if that's not enough so be it. But please don't condescend and tell me or other students of the game what is gracious and what is not.
August 23, 2008 10:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry that's your take, bslev. If you didn't write such a post, then obviously, you would not be the audience this post is directed at. More to the point, however, is that this post is not about telling anyone about what is or isn't gracious. It's about what's smart and necessary. If you think everyone's on board that train, you must have just gotten here.
August 23, 2008 11:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
Bruce is more on board with the dems then almost anyone here - you won't get any grudges from him - he's a true dem and a good guy.
August 23, 2008 4:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hey Ripper & Bslev. You two are coming over all Canadian lately, what with starting every sentence with "sorry." What gives?
Sorry to raise this sensitive issue in such a blunt way.
August 23, 2008 10:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Somehow, some way, the Clintons and Obama have found a way to work together for the good of the country, the party and us."
Ordinarily, Ripper, I'd be right with you... but that line is just not true. Especially the "country, party and us" part.
Until the roll call vote is over, and frankly until Hillary starts undoing all the damage she did during the primary, she and Bill aren't working for us, the country or the party, but for them.
You saw how quickly the McCain camp rolled out anti-Biden ad. Don't you think there is a shelf loaded with Hillary ads ready to be launched against Obama? She's got some work to do to walk back that stuff, and the Bill and Hill show at the convention, and all of yesterday's whining from Paul Begala and James Carville and other Hillary supporters about how Bill and Hill weren't vetted -- and get this -- weren't asked to give their consultation on Obama's choice, and how she was dissed.
That is what is keeping this "feud" going. The Clintons simply have not moved out of the spotlight.
August 23, 2008 11:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry, Jade. It is true.
August 23, 2008 11:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
The 'whine festival" of Hillary being dissed didn't come from the Obama camp. The surrogates spending all day on CNN complaining about her not being selected as Veep didn't come from the Obama camp. The surrogates complaining that Bill wasn't consulted didn't come from the Obama camp. The headline on Druge ("Dissed") was suggested by the Obama camp.
Even Chuck Todd of MSNBC just noted the "marked change in tone" between the statement in support of Biden as VP and her tepid campaigning for Obama in FL just a couple of days ago.
This isn't about keeping the fight going, Ripper, but I think you're preaching to the wrong crowd. Those of us who have supported Obama from the start have been riding the "Obama peace train" from Day One. There are plenty of seats in the back. The Hillary crew are more than welcome to them. It's up to them now to climb onboard.
August 23, 2008 12:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
You can keep your seats in the back, thanks. That went down some 50 years ago.
August 23, 2008 12:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Plenty of seats in the back..." So that's what this is all about.
August 23, 2008 12:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's all about hypocritical, vindictive Obamabots like Jade7243 and their hypocritical, vindictive candidate.
Do you really want Obama and his hate-America entourage in the White House?
Why?
Both major-party candidates are repulsive, and both of them are trying to sell the idea that there's no alternative.
Take a little time to read about Ralph Nader, and maybe it won't be so obvious that the only choice is between the crumbling war-monger McCain or the race-baiting con-man Barack Obama.
August 23, 2008 4:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
That's just downright stupid. Nader isn't one of your options. You can have Obama/Biden. Or you can have McCain/some-other-warmonger.
If you prefer McCain over Obama, then you can vote for McCain, or vote for Nader, or write-in your own name, or stay home and not vote, etc.
Pick one, Obama or McCain, and stop with the pathetic whining already.
August 23, 2008 9:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
See, Jade's into her victimization thing - Hillary did such damage. (Hey, are those Hillary clips or Biden clips the Republicans are running right now? Didn't Hillary get out there and campaign for Obama in June, July and August? What do you mean "Until Hillary starts undoing all the damage"? How much shit does she have to eat until you accept that she's even started?)
August 23, 2008 11:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
They're just setting excuses already - it's Clinton's fault, Clinton didn't campaign enough for Obama and yada, yada, yada...
August 23, 2008 11:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
No, no Bev... the fault lies squarely with those who dared to criticize in places like TPM forums, to express our concerns. See, the media has picked up on all of it and are now going to crucify Obama with our quaint complaints.
Or it's Hillary's fault... oh hell I can't keep up!
August 23, 2008 6:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
Loki,
Change of subject, just a quick thanks for the moral support wrt Jason. Guy's apparently got issues. Have a good one!
August 23, 2008 6:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
My pleasure, brother!
Cheers.
August 23, 2008 11:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
You know, Obama didn't ravage her andbeat her into some kind of submission. He won a primary. It's called politics.
August 24, 2008 12:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
I was not pleased with the way the Clintons behaved during the spring. And I wrote about it. But the best thing to do now is to pretend that it never happened, even if some people in the Clinton camp are not letting go. This is what the Party will do, hopefully, in Denver.
Let's keep our eye on the prize. And here it is brought to you by Jon Stewart and Co:
"Billboard of the Day, perhaps Month!"
http://msa4.wordpress.com/
August 23, 2008 5:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's not up to me or the Clintons. It's up to Obama to have the skills to hold the party together. If he doesn't have what it takes, the convention will be contentious.
Just like it's up to John McCain to have the skills to hold his own party together.
The person with the most skills will win the job of president. I already know the ending to this movie.
August 23, 2008 11:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
It's up to all of us. You know, 1776, democracy, that stuff.
August 23, 2008 11:38 AM | Reply | Permalink
I guess I should have quoted you, Ripper. I was responding to the following sentiment from your OP, which combines several steps of the election process:
I don't want a divided convention. But whether the convention is divided or not is under Obama's control, not mine. I'm not going to attend, although I will watch some of it on TV (although probably not Biden's speech). It's Obama's job to unify the party at the convention. He'll either give a unifying message to the attendees or he won't.
But even if the convention is divided, it doesn't necessarily follow that John McCain will win. Your equation is: divided convention = President John McCain.
This year both parties have mixed feelings about their party's candidate. This year, both parties are divided. It doesn't much matter what happens at the convention, it matters how skilled each candidate is at persuading people to vote for him from now until November. That power of persuasion is in Obama's hands, not mine, not the Clintons'.
August 23, 2008 12:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
Me either. No more than the first eighty or ninety minutes, anyway.
August 23, 2008 4:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
You know, you and a great many disappointed Hillary supporters clearly can't give up on the empty suit meme and have this tendency to sell Obama short at every turn. But -- whether he wins this presidency or loses, he's doing stuff for the Democratic party that has been begging to be done for years, and, win or lose, he'll leave it a stronger party than he found it -- and a stronger one than Bill Clinton left it after eight years in office.
I think you ought to broaden your horizons and read more than articles in the main stream press
-- NY Times or no. Like this one, from the American Prospect (and Ezra Klein, by the way, is no Obama cheerleader).
http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=its_his_party_08
There's a reason why the party's establishment is behind Obama, and it's not because of sexism (e.g., Nancy Pelosi). And you know, they're on the inside. Give them a little credit for knowing something, and try exposing yourselves to the truth about the kind of fire they've been seeing in Obama.
August 24, 2008 12:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry, doesn't hold water. Was it Hillary's skills that kept her from holding the the sexist vote? Was it Obama's skills that kept him from holding the racist vote?
All a candidate can do is seek our support. It is not automatically their fault if certain voters refuse to support them.
August 23, 2008 12:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, and when will Obama seek our support rather than assume it?
August 23, 2008 12:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Des:
Help the man out. What, exactly, do you want him to do?
August 23, 2008 12:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hey, he could use Hillary's mailing list and actually mention some of the issues that might be important to us and drop the Republican wording, explain what he's doing with the Solis-Doyle bit and other perceived insults leaking out rather than leaving us to read tea-leaves, hold principled positions such as on retroactive immunity, take a moment to seriously put a dent in Hillary's campaign debt if she's going to be fund-raising for you, maybe instruct his true blue followers how they can stop acting like she's a traitor and anti-Christ.
Remember how he defended Rev. Wright all those months? Seen any effort approaching that level towards Hillary?
August 23, 2008 12:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
If he does do that, does that mean you will fully support him?
No offense... I think folks are being somewhat disingenuous. Obama and Clinton's policies are 95% the same, yet you focus on "Republican" wording...
I do hope that you come on board, this election's too important, but do not hide behind the perceived slights. BOTH candidates were tough on one another in the Primaries.
August 23, 2008 12:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
No, early in the campaign he used Republican working on Social Security - a "crisis" - to attack Hillary and damage the Democratic position, something Josh had fought hard the year before. His Republican wording on faith-based programs, abortion, retroactive immunity, etc. likely has real repercussions.
But yes, if he actively courted me and didn't act like I was a tron that now had to vote for him just because he'd won the primary would go a long way towards getting my acceptance if not whole-hearted enthusiasm. Two months ago a quick Hillary nomination would have been more effective and likely would have saved him compromising himself in a number of ways as well, and that genie can't be put back in the bottle.
August 23, 2008 1:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Des,
I hear you. You should give the man a break and not select ONLY situations when you differ to make your point. As you know, right now, the country is Center right... his policies have to mirror the fact that progressive policy alone would not be enough to give him a majority of the vote.
He has compromised on a few things, not all of which I agree with, but on key issues we do agree. Can you not see that in the larger scheme that you are in agreement?
August 23, 2008 1:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
No, I can't. Everything's been for sale the last 2 months, and he's not even looking at me as a customer. Go take a look at the articles over at OpenLeft - they were hardly sympathetic to Hillary staying in the race, but have been quite disappointed with Obama this summer, and these guys put a lot of active campaigning effort in on the ground.
August 23, 2008 1:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
1) "Hey, he could use Hillary's mailing list and actually mention some of the issues that might be important to us.."
That sounds like a good idea. Are you sure that isn't being done?
2) "explain what he's doing with the Solis-Doyle bit and other perceived insults leaking out rather than leaving us to read tea-leaves.."
I haven't understood why the adoption of a Clinton loyalist who was replaced with someone perceived as tougher, is considered an insult.
3) "principled positions such as on retroactive immunity"
We'll both agree about the FISA bill vote. I think it likely was a political insurance in case of some terrorism related October surprise, but I was still disappointed.
4) "take a moment to seriously put a dent in Hillary's campaign debt if she's going to be fund-raising for you"
I'd say he has his hands full for the next couple of months. But, you guys really see that as an insult?
5) "maybe instruct his true blue followers how they can stop acting like she's a traitor and anti-Christ."
A traitor? The anti-Christ? Those are extreme overstatements. In fact, its been Obama who most has had to suffer such slings and arrows. Hillary feels to many of us like someone who is a bit too, eh, self-serving. I know, I know. You guys feel that way about Obama.
6) "Remember how he defended Rev. Wright all those months? Seen any effort approaching that level towards Hillary?"
C'mon, Des. Wright was his pastor for years. Married him to his wife and all. Barack had a personal loyalty to Wright that comes from long personal familiarity.
As far as defending Hillary goes, didn't he defend he refuse to take the bait in that ABC debate regarding her Tusla gaffe? In fact, didn't Barack go as far as to DEFEND her then, all while she was still attacking him?
I know there is great disappointment among Hillary supporters, as would be among Obama supporters if the situation were reversed. I think you unfair to focus blame for all those feelings on Barack.
August 23, 2008 1:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
1)I haven't seen anything on Hillary's mailing list.
2)Solis-Doyle was hired as a token woman and put in the VP staff slot - a kind of notice of "Hillary VP My Ass".
3)We agree
4)He said he'd do something and then gave it the warm spit approach. Better to have said nothing.
5)You're not so over-the-top. Others are. Jade's "all she's done to damage the party" and how she should leave the party etc. is not an uncommon sentiment around here. I don't expect Hillary love. Accepting that she's a reasonable candidate with a reasonable constituency is still necessary.
6)I gave you an example of how Obama can defend someone if he cares to. I don't expect him to equal that effort with Hillary, but I would expect some smaller effort at unity if he cares about my opinion and my vote.
I do not expect perfection. I did expect something more than bupkus and humiliation.
August 23, 2008 1:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
4)He said he'd do something and then gave it the warm spit approach. Better to have said nothing.
Hmmm. well, Des, I'm not a Hillary die hard by any means (although I did support and contribute to her campaign), but I have to lean with you on this one. If everyone who voted in the Democratic primaries for either candidate contributed, what, fifty cents each, her campaign debt could be retired.
Let's hope that everyone who speaks at the Democratic National Convention makes a point of bringing it up.
August 23, 2008 5:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Geese, rewarding bad campaign managers and chief strategists. Shouldn't Penn take a hit on this, like discount his service for what they were really worth to her? I was always amazed to hear her campaign was behind paying the little guy, local event organizers and caterers. Her campaign seemed to end up after each state with a higher accounts payable each week. A what was the point of the debt after it was mathematically impossible for her to win for the last six weeks? If HRC has the support of so many still, where are they in paying Ickes and Penn?
August 24, 2008 3:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
"Accepting that she's a reasonable candidate with a reasonable constituency is still necessary."
For me, and for many others, her endorsement of McCain is sufficient to rule out any acceptance of her as a "reasonable" candidate. It's not the only factor, but it's sufficient just by itself.
I'm glad we won't be hearing Hillary say "Senator McCain has a lifetime of experience that he will bring to the White House and Senator Obama has a speech he gave in 2002" thousands of times in ads for McCain. We'll continue to hear it anyway, but coming from Obama's own running mate it would have carried a lot more punch.
If you prefer McCain over Obama, then vote for McCain, or for Nader, or stay home, or write in Hillary. I'd rather have you openly arguing for the opposition than whining incessantly about all of these perceived insults you can't let go of.
August 23, 2008 9:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ummmmm Bob. You may be able to make an argument for whining. But I'm not sure your example was a good one, given that McCain came right out with an ad using Biden's own words against Obama.
Oh screw being polite. Bob-Bob, don't be an ass. Most of the people you're referring to are presenting positions that they think - if adopted - will HELP Obama & the Democrats. Got it? Meanwhile, you're producing posts like today's where you say genius stuff like, "You have to choose between Good and Evil." And you appear not even the slightest bit self-conscious enough to recognize that that VERY phrase is the one your "Evil" guys used to batter a nation into the sad situation it's presently in.
So hey! Well done! You've now given us a choice between directly supporting evil and... supporting a position so coopted it uses evil's own positioning & choices.
As your intellectual forebears - Bob & Doug McKenzie - would have said, "Beauty."
August 23, 2008 10:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
I have missed you, Q, it's been slow trudging without your light touch razor.
August 24, 2008 12:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
Easy for you to say NOW! Just wait til you see down below, where I call you a troll, a lab rat AND an ass-helmet. That'll teach you to doze off.
By the way, got any sun wherever you are? If so, I take it all back, and my suitcases will arrive on your doorstep promptly.
August 24, 2008 1:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
The little bit of sun I have shoved in my suitcase is now fading after a month. Nothing but drizzle today, sadly, probably a weather condition you're well familiar with.
August 24, 2008 2:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
The Democratic contest is over and it's time for some Clinton supporters to stopping seeking extraordinary special treatment. All the other candidates lost too and when they lost, they did not try to hold Obama hostage. Obama did not owe HRC the Veep slot. If Hillary had been the best match for Obama, then she would have been the pick. I think that Tim Kaine was his personal favorite, but given that Kaine was not the best match at this time, Kaine wasn't the pick either.
Hillary ran a full assault campaign and lost. So looking back she can't much say if only I had tried this tactic or that tactic, because she tried them all. If you want to blame someone for Hillary not being the Prez or VP choice, then blame all of her campaign advisors and all the infighting that took place because personal egos were bigger than the success of her campaign.
August 23, 2008 1:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
Your nonsense propaganda terms like "hostage" do not help. We are a constituency, as well as people with minds and free will and choice. We are not asking for "extraordinary special treatment", we were asking for normal special treatment for a large constituency, and now it looks like we're just asking that the candidate make some token effort at communication. Biden got what, 5000 votes in Iowa and dropped out, so there was no reason to expect that he would get any special favors. Edwards had a few more, and no one seemed to mind the prostrating going on over who would get his endorsement, adopting his poverty program, making him attorney general, etc. So drop the bullshit already and just accept the fact that a group of 18 million people does get more consideration than a group of 5000, and that's just life and democracy and market forces. There is no talk about a co-presidency as Gerald Ford pushed for. There was some push for Hillary to be VP, which was ungraciously rejected as if she asked for diamond slippers. At this point it comes down to trust and basic respect, and even that seems like a bridge too far. Sorry, some positions aren't negotiable.
August 23, 2008 2:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
This "constituency" you belong to is not the 18 million who voted for Hillary. It's a much smaller group of people who are dwelling on perceived insults and can't let go of a grudge.
Get over yourself. Vote for Obama, or if you prefer McCain over Obama, then vote for McCain or Nader or write in Hillary or stay home. If you do decide to support McCain then at least you'll be doing so openly.
August 23, 2008 10:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
You are right, it's not 18 million. Most of the 18 million were mature enough to move on. It's the roughly 18 hundred that are making like talk radio and want people to think that their numbers are bigger. The percent of the 18 million that I know personally plan to vote for Obama/Biden.
There are quite a few GOP surrogates masquerading on the internet as Hillary supporters mainly to create the delusion of party-disunity. But all is well. Now if we can just get CNN to stop trying to create tension where none exists. It guess anything goes in order to fabricate a good news story. I use to laugh it off when my GOP friends referred to CNN as Clinton News Network. But that won't change until Wolf Blitzer stops playing Clinton press secretary. Since CNN has become FOX light, I switched to MSNBC to get my commentary.
August 24, 2008 12:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
You don't know how many there are because your candidate won't talk to them. Bad mistake.
August 24, 2008 12:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
Right, and polls and contributions and PUMA conferences that can't fill a single room don't give us any insights at all into how large this group of alienated Hillary supporters might be. Maybe it is 18 million after all!
August 24, 2008 1:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
Might be. I can't imagine going to a PUMA conference or donating to them, and I'm sure I'm not alone.
August 24, 2008 1:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
Stop distracting Mr Fob. I've got him working on a "Good versus Evil" question and it'll take his FULL concentration.
Damned interlopers.
August 24, 2008 1:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry, lessee... Stalin bad, Johnny Depp good. Four legs good, two legs bad....
August 24, 2008 2:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
I know plenty of people in CA that had serious buyers remorse over Hillary after casting their vote only to watch the general viscousness of her campaign unfold. Those 18 million are merely votes, not the hard core support, many in NY which will go Dem anyway. And those 18 million also count the MI election -- which, as we know, didn't even have everyone's name on the ballot.
August 24, 2008 2:03 AM | Reply | Permalink
Does it count PR too, which doesn't vote in November?
August 24, 2008 3:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
FYI - Those were extreme examples that help show my point that it's not always the fault of the candidate. They ARE NOT an accusation about about the motivations of any specific hold-outs.
August 23, 2008 12:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Jade Im with you, again!
I want to move on and have.....Obama/Biden....
I used to be the most anti Biden guy I knew because I thought he fence straddled so much on almost everything and that bankruptcy bill vote, but again am on board now because its all relative at this point. Its just mocking comments like "they are getting their excuses ready" that are so offensive. Obama will be held accountable if he loses, however that does not mean that one closes their eyes to all of which the Clinton campaign did that damaged Obama that allot of people will never forgive them for if they do not work as hard for him as they do themselves. Hillary will be held accountable for not controlling her supporters as well! Equal accountability! People can parse all they want. I cant wait to hear Hill/Bill speak at the convention. That will be even more telling.
August 23, 2008 11:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
Who writes your entitlement scripts?
"Hillary didn't cry for Katrina" - talk about the #1 racist statement of the campaign. Give it up, she's not your lackey, she doesn't have to carry Obama's bags, she ran a fair race, and if you can't deal with real politics go back to powder puff football.
But keep it up, you're doing a great job of damaging any coalition. I won't say damaging the party because anything you do will be purely temporary despite your delusions of some fundamental eternal change.
August 23, 2008 12:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
Desidero:
You said: ".... if he actively courted me and didn't act like I was a tron that now had to vote for him just because he'd won the primary would go a long way towards getting my acceptance if not whole-hearted enthusiasm."
And then you said: "Who writes your entitlement scripts?"
Hmmm.
You apparently think it is your absolute right to be "courted" -- not so that you will be actively supportive, but rather, just so that you will deign to offer "acceptance if not whole-hearted enthusiasm" for our candidate.
Who is it, then, who appears to be suffering from an entitlement perspective?
August 23, 2008 1:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm the customer. For Hillary and for Obama. And for McCain. These are prospective public servants. But Hillary's out, so now I have 2 vendors left.
Sean in his misguided worldview thinks that a vendor who didn't make the cut now owes something to another vendor. And that the customer has to buy, cannot just not buy or switch to another vendor.
However, the vendor that didn't make the cut can still help deliver her customer base, understands those customer needs better in some ways, has customer devotion. The surviving vendors can choose to use that help, can try to sell directly to the holdout consumers, or simply give up the sale and rely on his existing customer base. Only this sale will be winner take all - the surviving vendors have to evaluate their chances with or without that help, in various scenarios. Good luck.
August 23, 2008 1:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Conflating an election with customer outreach sounds a tad bit misguided, no offense. Perhaps, you really are happy with the direction the country has gone in the last eight years.
This is the only explanation I can think of where you could compare two democratic nominees to one whom has voted with Dubya 95% of the time.
August 23, 2008 1:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
If McCain shows he'll whore himself to my preferences 95% of the time, I'll forgive his behavior the last 8 years. It's that simple. That's the customer outreach I like.
August 23, 2008 2:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
Which is exactly my problem with your logic. McCain does not agree with Democratic policy on almost anything. How do you reconcile THAT?
August 23, 2008 2:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
And Obama doesn't agree with me on quite a lot in practice (whatever his theory is), and treats me like shit. So I've got a tough choice, don't I? Based on my important issues and what Congress will look like, which candidate will get me more preferred outcomes? It's rather sad that I even have doubts about this question, but that's Obama's fault, and one he'll either try to fix or not.
August 23, 2008 2:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
It strikes me that it does not matter what Obama says or does, he would never get your vote or approval.
I do hope you come around... I will continue to do what I can to elect this Democrat in this election.
August 23, 2008 3:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
How about start talking to me and stop treating me like shit? Is that so goddamn hard to understand? Reach out, extend his hand, say, "Hey, I hear you're not convinced, let's have a chat". I keep saying this over and over and the Obama folks just throw up their hands and go, "wow, you're impossible to please, so demanding".
August 23, 2008 4:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
How about you meet him halfway and actually make an effort yourself? Make sure to read through his policy proposals and maybe even keep an open mind. Ask questions. Make suggestions. Affect the campaign with reasoned, rational arguments. Ignore the idiots still thrashing Clinton. Maybe give Obama the benefit of the doubt on all these token gestures he is making.
That is, instead of just sitting on your ass, having everybody try to guess what the fuck it is that you want to be told. The guy has, as I understand it, 17,999,999 other people to convince too and I bet the proactive, open-minded ones are going to get a lot more out of it.
August 23, 2008 8:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think I'm bookmarking this page just for your comment. I seriously wish everyone who's feeling "cheated" by Obama in some way could read this. Thanks for that, truly.
August 24, 2008 12:28 AM | Reply | Permalink
I read his policy papers. That doesn't help me with his stumble on Georgia, his backflip on FISA, his idea to send more troops to Afghanistan, his idea that Social Security is in "crisis" (and how he'll touch that tar baby without getting stuck), his adoption of right-wing terminology for abortion and faith-based initiatives, etc.
Obama's constituency doesn't demand anything of the guy. Why not? Typically labor demands a candidate be pro-labor, farmers demand a candidate be pro-farm, blacks demand a candidate be pro-black, etc. But you've given this guy carte blanche, "he's smarter than us, he'll work it out in office". Bullshit, he's a poltician, treat him like one. He's going to screw you, but make sure he only screws you 50% and you'll be happy. But when you demand nothing, you're headed off a cliff.
August 24, 2008 12:54 AM | Reply | Permalink
The problem is that a lot of those issues are not seen by many of his supporters in the extreme or absolutist lights you put on them. You say we demand nothing of him. Perhaps you demand too much. Certainly my claim holds as much merit as yours, though I don't know if either truly does hold much merit. Scream at me for saying it, but truly, you seem to be nothing but demanding. "It's either my way or NOTHING" -- no middle ground, no compromise. You refuse to cede anything to anyone or anything, and if they don't agree with you, then fuck them. Glad you have such strong principles, but I find it hard to imagine you making any progress with that mindset. I'm sorry you've come to that point. I can't imagine what's lead you to it, but the way you act, I find it hard to imagine you'll ever be happy.
Good luck, Desidero. I hope one day you find what you're looking for.
August 24, 2008 2:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
What have you demanded from him?
What did I ask for that was so unreasonable?
August 24, 2008 2:33 AM | Reply | Permalink
Why does it matter what I demanded of him? He's given me very little to demand of him. I've found myself very satisfied.
What's unreasonable is that you demand that he bend to your will. That he be YOUR candidate, not OUR candidate. It's that simple.
I've explained myself. I really have nothing more to say on the matter.
As I said, I hope one day you find what you're looking for.
August 24, 2008 3:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
So knowing what you know of me from my countless posts, what is it about him that would make me a satisfied voter? Any ideas what you think I'm missing?
August 24, 2008 3:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
McCain is a gigilo. He should be able to pander to you sufficiently for the right price.
August 24, 2008 4:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
Personally, I think as long as he doesn't do everything you want him to, you won't be satisfied.
You have to give in order to get. The Gang of 10 Energy Bill is a good example. The only way they were gonna get the good stuff in that bill passed was to add on the idiotic offshore drilling statute. But for the greater good of the US and our society, passing that bill in spite of the offshore drilling bit would be a very good thing.
Supporting Obama in spite of his obvious faults as you, I, or anyone sees them, is a good thing for all the good he's offering. You tend to focus so strongly on the negative, and refuse to see the positive he's offering in the realm of health care, the environment, energy, gay rights, women's rights. The list goes on.
Same for John McCain, if the ideals that he vouches for are aligned with your way of thinking. Though I highly doubt you want what he's selling. Maybe you do? Maybe I'm wrong.
I just think a little compromise would go a long way. It's impossible not to and expect progress in a Democracy. Especially one as ideologically divided as the United States.
So like I said, good luck. It's difficult. Until Obama, I haven't been satisfied.
August 24, 2008 4:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
Hey, you gave me the Gang of 10 bill to ponder - a concrete example - great, and I mean that sincerely.
Gay rights? I'm quite unconvinced he'll do anything.
August 24, 2008 4:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
You're welcome.
And with gay rights, I wouldn't be supporting him if I didn't believe he would push for them. My father is gay, so it's a really big issue for me.
August 24, 2008 12:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
OK then, Desidero, here is your assignment if you want to make a compelling case that you are not just covering up some selfish pique with bullshit non-arguments about imaginary policy differences with Obama. Generate a list of 40 or 50 significant policy disputes that are likely to be dealt with in the next presidential administration. Identify for us the ones where John McCain has a position closer to your own than does Obama; and then identify the cases where the Obama position is closer to your own position than is McCain's.
You seem to be suggesting that it's a close call. And maybe that's true. Maybe you are a fairly conservative blue dog Democrat who is closer to the Republican position than the Democratic position about half the time. Fair enough. But if you are honestly trying to convince us that you believe that about half the time McCain actually has the more progressive position, then I think you are either bullshitting us, or just don't know the issues. I can't tell, since you never do anything but throw out vague allusions to these alleged close shaves between Obama and McCain.
An example of what I mean is Social Security. Obama wants to maintain the classic Democratic commitment to Social Security as a government program, and wants to address the long-term funding challenge by requiring wage earners in the top 3% to kick in to the Social Security payroll tax. McCain, like most Republicans, wants to mess around with partial privatization and benefits cuts. You keep bringing this issue up, but your whole case comes down to the fact that you are irked that what I just called a "long-term funding challenge", Obama once ill-advisedly called a "crisis". OK, he made a mistake and it is fair to criticize him for it. But when you get into the policy nuts and bolts, most Democrats wouldn't think it is a close call.
Now maybe you are in favor of privatization and benefits cuts. Fair enough. But I would sure like to know how many more issues there are like this.
Barack Obama also "treats me with no respect" sometimes. Just this past week, he seemed to be seriously considering Evan Bayh for VP, a neocon fellow traveler and accomplice of Joe Lieberman and John McCain. I considered that an incredible slap in the face to war opponents like me, who as far as I am concerned are the people chiefly responsible for getting Obama the nomination.
My position was that if he nominated Bayh, I would still obviously be forced to vote for Obama, since the differences between Obama and McCain on a hundred different issues are not even close. I would then advocate working to drive Bayh out of the vice presidency, and otherwise do what I could to undermine any harmful impact by Bayh on the Obama administration.
But yes, you could say I felt "disrespected" by Obama. So what? Obama doesn't even know who I am. And I honestly don't care whether he "respects" me or acknowledges me, or is considerate of my feelings; I only care what he is likely to do in office. He's running for president, not camp counselor, rabbi school nurse. My personal feelings about my imaginary "relationship" with the candidate, which tend to oscillate on a daily basis, are completely unimportant to a rational assessment of my voting options.
August 24, 2008 12:14 AM | Reply | Permalink
Here's a simpler task, Dan - tell me what policy you're going to push Obama on, one you won't accept a flip, one you're going to draw a line in the sand and say, "Senator, I need a commitment on this and not one you'll change later".
Let me know what's important to you. One that the Senator will have to get to know you or your group. One that he'll have to respect and fear repercussions.
Like it or not, Reagan knew what he wanted and let people know and he came into office and did it. Like a tidal wave. Same with LBJ. Bush was more wishy-washy in his promises, but he was a career man - his caretakers had bought and sold him so many times there was no doubt whose bidding he'd do.
Who is Obama's caretaker? Who is he going to take care of? He's not responsive to you, and certainly not to me. Who does he owe, who will he pay back? Who's his daddy? Does he have one?
August 24, 2008 1:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
"Like it or not, Reagan knew what he wanted and let people know and he came into office and did it. "
That's your best example? Reagan did some of what he said, and completely ignored other things he said. He campaigned with a promise to balance the budget, remember? He was extremely disingenuous, and the interests that were best served by the Reagan administration weren't the interests that he emphasized in his campaigning. I'm surprised anyone but a wingnut would even try to sell that sort of claim about Reagan.
August 24, 2008 1:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
He was reasonably consistent and reasonably pragmatic - such as raising taxes when he had to - even though he did some things I extremely disliked. Campaign promises are one thing, but do you think many people who voted for Reagan were surprised or appalled at the result, at how he governed, compared to say those who voted for Bush?
August 24, 2008 2:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
Well, for one thing, I responded very negatively to the Biden announcement this morning and expressed on several sites my strong disapproval of Biden's stance during his trip to Georgia.
I also responded earlier this week with something close to apoplectic anger to Obama's floating the name of Evan Bayh, and said that if Bayh were selected, I would begin to advocate right after Obama's election to have Bayh investigated for his participation in the neocon-lead Committee for the Liberation of Iraq, with an eye toward forcing Bayh from office.
Now, I could also try to pretend that I am actually thinking about voting for John McCain, and use that as a tactic for pushing Obama into my preferred positions. But that wouldn't work, because people know where I stand on most issues, and so they wouldn't believe me and would know I was just bluffing, since it is pretty obvious to everyone that whatever my reservations about and frustrations with Obama, McCain is on another planet as far as I am concerned - a crazy, evil, dangerous planet.
Now why don't you put up, if you can? or are you just a fake?
August 24, 2008 2:15 AM | Reply | Permalink
Okay, so you're outraged at times. How will you try to influence Obama so he knows this is unacceptable? (Realizing you can't call him, but is there a feedback loop?)
Would nominating Bayh have pushed you nuclear in an effective, actionable way? Or will it be another 8 years of shaking your head going "that guy sure makes some strange moves sometimes"?
What do you expect from your candidate, and what is not acceptable in a real actionable way? Or are you captive?
August 24, 2008 3:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
Ok, for Ripper, Sean, Roo, Dan K, Chrono and co - lemme try this. Personally, I don't need selling on Obama, ok? Been around, seen a lot of politics, hate McCain, ain't gonna eat there - ever. Ok? BUT. A whole heaping helping of Americans DON'T yet "Eat At O's." Tens of millions, in fact. Yet. But the race is close, and we only have ~10 weeks left. So the entire game comes down to HOW TO GET THOSE BASTARDS INSIDE OUR RESTAURANT BY NOVEMBER. And the last two times we didn't quiiiiiite get enough customers in. So, our task is clear.
1) So take it as given that the usual arguments will continue to be made, repeatedly - through ads, door-to-door, media, etc. And that will convince SOME additional voters. 2) OTHERS will only be swayed by NEW arguments, images, stories, connections, silver bullet facts, songs, whatever. And YES, many of those people are idiots. But would you rather have those idiots eat at McCains or at Obama's? So, we need some idiot-catching angles. 3) And in some (fewer) cases, people may be pissed off, or need new angles that actually make SENSE, and yes, sometimes even NEED CHANGE FROM OUR CANDIDATE.
So treat Des as one of these 3 groups. A test case. Lab rat. We have to determine the species, and set to work to lure it into the Trap... errrr, "Restaurant." Now it's pretty obvious that the "shut up" and "all hands on deck" and "do your research" arguments that SOME have used (not necessarily you folks) aren't working for a lot of people. This isn't something we have time to be offended about, rather, it's something we have to change. On the fly. And hundreds, thousands, millions of minds, playing away in little fora like this one, CAN actually make a difference. Besides, it doesn't do us a whole lot of good to come here to TPM and repeat whatever mantras that are already in wide circulation. What possible good comes of us writing shit here that'll get 150 Rec's, all from those who think exactly like us? (Ok, besides the big bucks Josh is laying out.)
For me, I kinda thought the point was to look ahead, think sideways, come up with new angles, be creative, imagine, play things out, strategize, all that sort of stuff. And yeah, I know there's various McCain "trolls" or whatever loose on the premises. But I don't actually think Des is one. (He may be a troll, but more likely of the bad-smelling nose-picking kindofa guy under a bridge type.) I say, treat him as an orange-haired avatar for the undecided (and potentially mentally ill) patient/voter that HAS to be attracted by November.
And good God, if we could come up with just ONE nice new angle on things; one sweet lil silver bullet way to get at some subsegment of voters; one creative shot the Obama team hadn't already thought of - wouldn't THAT be the Holy Grail for us big-mouth bloggers here? And to do that, isn't it USEFUL to have people to give us something to sharpen our thoughts on, who refuse our usual arguments and make us go beyond them?
I donno. For me... one of the main messages Obama put out that caught my attention was that we're supposed to be beyond left and right, embodying change from the grassroots, ... and then we get a chance HERE to go beyond Us vs Them, the usual political tripe, and I just kinda dig it. Des may be a complete asshelmet (ok, ok, I shouldn't prevaricate) but I bet if you come up with a new riff, an eye-opener, you'd get full points from him, AND - since half the process of innovation is just generating new ideas - we run a better chance of coming up with something useful.
And if your idea of what this site should be actually IS just to come here and meet with those who think exactly alike, please let me know, so I can avoid those posts in the future. I don't think that IS the case, but if that's your gig, just lemme know. Besides, if you didn't have Des to insult, I suspect I'd be next on the foodchain, so I need him to stick around ok? (No offence, Des. And I meant "asshelmet," "troll," "lab rat" and such in the BEST possible way.) And - to tell you the truth - I think Des is at least as smart as any two of us here (or at least me and Chrono. Sorry Chrono, I kinda let down our average, but there you go. Think of it like the Olympics, and I'm the guy handing you a sweat-drenched baton.) And yes, the thought of Des being smart IS pretty worrying, no matter how I think about it. But I DO kinda suspect he (and some others) are actually TRYING to get us to think outside the box and raise our game, rather than just irritate us. Which is more a side-benefit for the complete bastard that he is.
August 24, 2008 1:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
This mentally ill asshat rat needs cheese to get out of this maze. Is it in chute #3? Past trap door #1? Under the shavings? I'm sniffing, I'm scuffling, I'm scratching the glass walls. Is there really cheese? Or are you bastard lab techs just fucking with me? What's that? Testing eye sprays, not behavior? Sssssttt....Ohmygod, Jeezuss that hurts, ow ow ow, get me some water quick, but out the fire ow ow ow ow......
August 24, 2008 1:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
Des, I SWEAR that I TOLD Sean not to use that damned spray. "Cheese," I said, "And spare no expense! Velveeta sponsorship be damned!!" Yes, I was THAT courageous.
It was either that or a "Woman's unvarnished right to choose." We thought we'd try the cheese first.
August 24, 2008 1:50 AM | Reply | Permalink
No, definitely not cheese - it was either furniture polish or feminine leg hair remover. Funny, I'm not hungry anymore either.
August 24, 2008 2:10 AM | Reply | Permalink
You seem hellbent on there being no coalition. Your candidate didn't get the nomination so you want to ruin it for everyone. Grow up, please. Life isn't perfect. She's not part of the conversation right now. Painful but true. That's what happens when you lose the primary.
August 23, 2008 1:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
That was for Desidero, not Sean
August 23, 2008 1:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm part of the conversation right now. I'm the customer. I've got a pocket full of money. And I'm not sold. Close the deal. If you can, if you care.
August 23, 2008 2:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh, bullshit. You're just making things up and making lame excuses, "customer". If the deal isn't closed already it can only be because you don't really know the issues, and are one of those tabloid-swallowing dimwits who makes political decisions based on ethereal personality vibes and how well the candidate charms them or flatters them. Even my son's high school friends know themselves well enough to know where they stand on the issues, and aren't all caught up in these kinds of superficial and temperamental moods and irritations. Do want Barack Obama to give you a foot rub or something? Stop wasting our time.
We're citizens, and our votes have a bearing on 300,000,000 people besides our pathetic little selves. Your fellow citizens are counting on you to make an adult decision based on a mature assessment and comparison of the likely consequences of the kinds of governments that would be run each of the two candidates. Stop being such a petulant prima donna, and make your own sale loser.
Respect me! Pay attention to me! Love me! I've seen brats in a toy store with less narcissistic fussing than these last few breath-holding holdouts.
August 24, 2008 12:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
A campaign geared to the likings of 18-year-olds may not suit everyone.
August 24, 2008 1:38 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm much older, offspring of a Navy vet, and would not let McCain any where near my six daughters. Enough said.
August 24, 2008 4:04 AM | Reply | Permalink
Lol........ummmmmmm ok!
August 23, 2008 12:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
No matter if you agree or disagree with Ripper, or Obama's choice in Biden, or you love or hate Howard Dean, there is only one thing that matters, and one thing we cannot forget: John McCain or Barack Obama. For it will be one of those two people who will be our next president.
If you cannot reconcile yourself to vote for Obama, that's fine...but please do not vote for McCain. Our lifestyle (affording to eat, having a job, having or getting healthcare, etc.), our futures, the futures of our children and grandchildren depend on it.
If you don't like Obama, vote for Bob Barr. Vote for Cynthia McKinney. Vote for Ralph Nader. Write in Ron Paul. Just don't vote for McCain.
Do you REALLY want a President McCain?
August 23, 2008 1:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
You think there's only one thing that matters. I don't. So accept that we're bringing different negotiating positions and desired outcomes to the table. You need me? Then figure out which of my outcomes are essential to a deal, what compromise from your hardened position you can move on. Don't need me? Sayonara. It's basic negotiating, basic sales.
August 23, 2008 2:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
While I understand and applaud your passion, this is no longer about Hillary or you; it about US (as in the US).
I don't know what you want from Obama. I think he has been very inclusive, has given HRC many kudos and good words, his positions mirror hers in many ways and those which are not identical are damned close - a hell of a lot closer than a single one of McCains'.
I'm sorry but we're at the cutting off your nose to spite your face stage.
Remember: Obama or McCain.
Obama. Or. McCain.
August 23, 2008 3:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
Has he ever given a speech to Hillary's supporters, used her email list, reviewed some of their policy concerns, done more than demand that Hillary campaign for him?
August 23, 2008 4:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Des, let me give you a little tough love.
I understand your disappointment and frustration from my own general experience, but of course, I cannot place myself in your shoes entirely or understand your specific feelings, as I did not support Sen. Clinton for president.
But I do know that had Hillary clinched the nomination and Obama lost, my feelings would have been the mirror image of yours — with one important difference: I would be supporting Hillary and fighting for her tooth and nail now.
You write as if Obama owes you a personal visit, phone call or letter. Perhaps you come across this way unintentionally, and if so, by all means, please set the record straight. I would hate to think that you believe you are owed that kind of attention when, mathematically speaking, no candidate could touch each American individually, even given several lifetimes.
Among your grievances with Obama, you list several that seem very personal to you. But politics is not a matter of supporting personalities or even persons, but instruments of public policy.
Reread that last sentence, because you seem to confuse the purpose of entrusting government to the people. It is not to personalize your elected officials or live vicariously through a candidate's success or defeat.
Yes, I like Obama and you like Hillary. Surely we each like our preferred candidate in part because of his or her policy positions, record, campaign style and persona.
You may cast your vote any way you choose; the criteria is all up to you. Yet I would remind you that our vote is a powerful force for the common good or ill, and our founders created this form of government as the Age of Enlightenment dawned, with the understanding that we would all use our votes with as much wisdom and enlightened self-interest as possible.
We are all in this together, Des. Your views are important, but they do not supersede those of others. Our system has decided the nominee, or soon will, officially. It will be Obama vs. McCain. That is the choice left to all of us, though we might have preferred that other people won or that others who did not run had done so.
Sen. Obama, contrary to your narrow perspective of his efforts, has gone to great lengths to honor, placate and express an unprecedented deference to Sen. Clinton. Her role and her husband's role as speakers — each with their own convention night, for starters. Then there is the matter of attempting to retire her debt for her. Let's be clear: Were the roles reversed, Hillary would have done none of this.
Sen. Obama is trying, but he does not speak for one constituency alone. He now speaks for all Democrats, and if you will assume responsibility for your own hurt emotions, you may decide he speaks for you, as well.
August 23, 2008 7:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ripper, I love you. I really do. But your wrong here.
First, you have no evidence to say what Hillary would or would not have done at the convention. I think it's pretty obvious, because she insinuated as much, that she would have chosen Obama for VP.
You know why? Because they nearly tied the primaries. It's easy to say it was a blowout, but it wasn't. It was close all the way through. And the Clintons' political skills are sharp enough to see you don't intentionally alienate large block of your own party. Not when you have a choice.
Hillary Clinton had 18 million people pull a lever with her name next to it. Of those, every poll I've see says that 27 percent -- aren't backing Obama. That's 4.86 million votes, Ripper. Those people would come back with her on the ticket -- maybe not all, but a large majority, say 3.5 million. That's a lot of votes.
And to not vett her. To not talk to her about the position. How should her supporters feel? Like Des has been saying in this thread, it's important because it says something about the man and about his core values. Treat people with respect. You win graciously. And if someone can help you win the election -- if someone represents practically half of the voters in your primary -- you damn sure go out of your way to make those supporters feel welcome. But he didn't. And that says something about the way he views those who disagree with him.
As for her not being chosen as VP, you can say her negatives would energize the Republican's base, but, honestly, do you think anyone angry enough to vote against her as VP was not angry enough to vote against Barak Huessein Obama? They're coming out anyway.
So the question is, really, is Joe Biden going to get you 3.5 million votes? Who is he going to bring to the party? I don't think anyone. I thing he's a lifetime politician from a negligible state who has a penchant for talking long and sometimes condescendingly. He may say mean things about McCain, but that's not going to get us 3.5 million votes.
And that makes me question Obama's judgment. For all the talk he has of big picture, he's not looking at it. And in a race that HAS to be close ... well, it takes more than just telling me to be a good soldier. I'll vote for him, I guess, but the hope he talks about, the optimism, the unity .. that seems to be reserved only for those who supported him all along. Winners and spoils, that sort of thing. Of course, that's what the White House has been saying for eight years, too.
August 23, 2008 8:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'll piggy back on this as my reply, thanks.
August 24, 2008 1:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
Even though Joe Biden is a pompous idiot who voted for the war in Iraq and bankruptcy "reform," Obamabots should be celebrating because...
Obama screwed the Clintons one more time, along with all the rest of us.
Nothing else really matters to the clown Obama and the suckers who support him.
August 23, 2008 4:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Jacob! Return to the basement at once!
August 23, 2008 7:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
That got me chuckling.
August 24, 2008 1:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
We already have you. Your undecided pose is just a pretense. Nobody is going to waste any time "courting" you, since you're just a bullshitter looking for some attention from fellow TPM Cafe posters.
August 24, 2008 2:23 AM | Reply | Permalink
Lol....Its settled.... Obama should say,Hillary supporters, even though there are Supreme Court Justices who may or may not hold the fate of things that may be very important to you on the line from the fall out of this election and I think the choice is a clear one now, I would like to take the time to apologize for the unfair process of the Democratic Party. I dont think it was fair that you didnt campaign in caucus states and didn't plan to be in a race after super Tuesday, its my fault. I got a "free ride" by the media and it wasnt right. The people heard Bill Clinton say things that some thought were race baiting, and that was my fault because I couldnt convince people that they didn't hear what they thought they heard. When you got on national t.v. and said you were under sniper fire in bosnia, it was my fault that I couldn't supress the video. All the things that Mark Penn did, well I should have warned you about that. All is my fault, and I think that Hillary should be the nominee, but I won and there is nothing we can do about that now. Lastly, I apologize for picking a VP that is strong in areas where the appearance on surface is I am weak. I did this because I hope that where Im somewhat weak with the women vote, women understand whats at stake in the fallout, and even if they hate me, have enough since to know what they need to do without being told. So in the end, Hillary it was unfair to you, Im sorry!
Something like that?
August 23, 2008 1:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Dear Hillary supporters, I'm sorry that Hillary didn't cry for Katrina, and that women are just trying to get 3rd term abortions because they're lazy sluts, and that all of you in Pennsylvania and Ohio are white racist rednecks and that you don't believe me on my Supreme Court picks which will be unlike my reverses on FISA, campaign finance, faith based initiatives and my hedged bets on Social Security and health care.
Hillary supporters, I'm sorry you followed such a bitch but come on in and vote for me now anyway because you have to.
Kind of like that, Sean. Way to go. Keep it up.
August 23, 2008 1:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
You know the HRC campaign promoted the redneck vote crap because it resonated with some voters who it's doubtful that Obama could win their support anyway. But the media pundits sure promoted it and CNN Blitzer) especially is now promoting the concept of Hillary supporters feeling dissed. Well most Hillary supporters showed their maturity and moved on a long time ago. And the ones that didn't...these holdouts will be more than offset by the mature youth vote that will turn out for Obama in November.
August 23, 2008 2:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
Rednecks have rights and interests too. Dismissing people because they're white and less educated is hardly a progressive enlightened attitude, and it's typically suicidal if you expect a majority in November. But it was a good strategy to get pundits and DNC leaders to ignore the results from redneck states, because after all, they're just racist rednecks and don't count. Good luck with that youth vote - maybe you'll get them out, maybe you won't. Didn't quite give Kerry the edge he needed, but perhaps you'll have better luck.
August 23, 2008 2:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Redneck comes from strikers here in WV that wore bandannas to show unity and be easily identified in the crowd when the Pinkerton showed up with their muscle. A true redneck could never support McCain's anti-labor positions. Think Ledbetter.
August 24, 2008 4:12 AM | Reply | Permalink
Word.
August 24, 2008 5:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
Haha...Desidero......Give it up!!!! So much "PROJECTION" in your statements. None of which is where I stand, re-read my post, Im quite clear on where Im comming from. They should have enough since to know whats best for them and whats at stake, annnnnnnnddddd, he has been nothing but gracious to Hillary/Bill Clinton.
Dont worry though, if you mean me being honest, I will keep it up.
August 23, 2008 1:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Be as unreasonable and as vindictive and as uncomprehending as you like, Sean, maintain your completely one-sided propagandist view of the elections and for that matter, just pretend there's no problem if you like. You won, have the election, see you in 4 years. I've said before, conservative Republicans accepted opposition control rather than accept Republican positions they didn't make any accomodation, and Democrats can play that way as well.
And there's also quite a bit of "the devil you know" at work here. We've survived Bush barely, and I'm sure McCain will be better than him even if unpleasant, and presuming a stronger Democratic majority in both houses, he will be relatively contained, even for judicial nominations. And I also know all the wonderful promises of Castro and Che Guevera, of the Cultural Revolution, of Mugabe, of the Jacobins before the Reign of Terror - plenty of atrocities occur on the left, the so-called progressives of whatever generation, and while I don't mean to imply I expect atrocities, I think it's quite possible I can feel my party values hijacked just like some Republican true conservatives feel betrayed over events of the last decade.
And it's more likely for me to take this pessimistic reactive view if the nominee and his followers don't even deign to consider my views and preferences - an attitude I've felt since sometime last year when moderate Republicans became more attractive a target than Hillary supporters.
August 23, 2008 2:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well Lowly, Im sorry you feel I feel that way. Sometimes I like to beat back things like "they are getting their excuses ready" you know to me thats offensive and still attacking Obama and his supporters. If by me getting excited about that somehow gave you the impression that I dont want a united party, well your wrong and you missunderstand me. Im sure you wont listen to my side, and thats cool. I dont want her to be apart of the conversation and have stayed away from TPM because Im tired of criticizing her. However, some of the attacks of Obama I feel are unfair, and I have a big mouth and strike back. So again, Im sorry you feel that way!!!!!
August 23, 2008 1:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
You guys are just a kick in the ass. It was Hillary's fault for voting against retroactive immunity because that somehow showed she was trying to make Obama look bad. It was Hillary's fault for leaking that she was never vetted because that would imply she was never vetted and not taken seriously. Then it's "when Hillary starts to undo the damage she's done" when I thought somehow she'd been out campaigning for Obama and raising quite a bit of money for him the last 2 1/2 months. What was it in Florida the other day, oh, she didn't say "I want you to vote for Obama" 11 times instead of 10, proving her heart wasn't in it and she's stabbing him in the back. Not too much joy that she's speaking at the convention either, the conniving bitch.
August 23, 2008 2:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Dammm Lowly....I read you post wrong. You said Desidero.....Im sorry...too much coffee....
August 23, 2008 1:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
Desidero...Just read your customer vendor thing. Dude, I dont think she owes Obama anything, YOUR WORDS, there's that projection thing. Kinda like she thought she was entitled to be president because it was her turn, (see I can do that too). Now here is what I think, and please quit spinning. If she cannot rally her supporters, to do whats best for them, how would she have been able to rally the country had she won. I somehow think that you think it would have been up to Obama to get his supporters on board, you know all those hundreds of thousands of new voters voting change. I know you will deny that you would have expected that, and I cant prove it, but I think deep down in your heart, you know it true. Fact is, I want her to campaign just as hard for him, and she did herself. There is still time, and I think she will. All that other crap about consumer policy and marketing is nonsense. We are talking about the last 8 years, and a Democrat not having being elected again for a long time if McCain pulls an upset!
August 23, 2008 2:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
YOUR WORDS. You think she owes him that much. You lose. I don't share your goals, and I don't share your view of reality, and I don't share your sense of entitlement and her or my obligation. We have different world views. Game over.
August 23, 2008 2:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't think you share our planet.
August 23, 2008 4:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hillary who?
August 23, 2008 4:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Duff
August 23, 2008 4:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Swank?
August 23, 2008 4:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sir Edmund...
August 23, 2008 5:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Desidero is a Repug, folks...
August 23, 2008 4:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Perhaps your primitive perception has a point, but certainly better than being a mental Neanderthal of whatever political persuasion. Have you ever posted anything besides feral ravings about sex accessories or odd fetishist remarks about dental work, aside from your basic misspellings of words guised as witticisms?
August 23, 2008 5:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Stepping back and looking at your reading list, you must have at one time prepped yourself for something more than this. Can't you participate in the dialog in a more meaningful way? Entertain at least - what would Snyder say? Any Ed Dorn or Robert Creeley? Theosophists? Rosicrucians? Paracelsus? Something/Anything? Even Eddie & the Cruisers?
August 23, 2008 5:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm voting for some Gary Snyder. Maybe something like....
"That short-haired joy and roughness -
Des - your stupidity.
I could almost love you again."
But if I ever see Eddie and the Cruisers again, I may have to kill myself. And then - rules being rules - I have to wait 3 days before coming back. Which is a bugger, what with the Convention & all.
And Crandell.... NO dental work jokes!
August 23, 2008 7:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
Where've YOU been?
Your presence has been missed.
August 23, 2008 9:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Howdy Carol. Been back in NS with the clan, airlifted in from 4 continents. Fortyplus of us at this reunion, the first big one in 5 years. Trip highlighted by consumption of 20 pounds of scallops... nephews now into first-stages of hair loss (vengeance is mine!)... and hours spent surrounded by thousands of sandpipers, do their group-mind-in-flight thing. Lowlights? Rain. God help me.
Good to see the same old grudges being fought over here though. Makes me feel right at home.... ;-)
August 23, 2008 10:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
Mmmm...scallops! Well, welcome back. The place isn't the same without your unique brand of snarkiness. :)
August 23, 2008 11:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
The Hillary Haunters are starting to irritate me, and that's been long in coming, believe me. I was prepared at one point to vote for her if Obama didn't make it. But her rabid sect of supporters are such whiners and downers that I'm starting to feel extra glad Clinton didn't win the primaries! Jeez, get with the program, folks! If you prefer McCain, then feel free to give him your money and volunteer for him on the streets and shout out his name in bitter glory. Go ahead and promote Bush/McCain for four more years, but don't pretend you really care about the poignant issues the rest of us Democrats (including Hillary herself, from what I gather) DO seriously care about....
August 23, 2008 7:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
CoSign!!
August 23, 2008 9:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
There's been no whining here, only vitriolic expressions of disgust, contempt and outrage, occasionally sprinkled with sound reasoned argumentation and a knock on the door to see if anyone's still there.
Perhaps that's part of the problem, you can't discriminate between basic human emotions.
August 24, 2008 1:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
When Hillary diehards stop demonizing my candidate I'll be nice and we'll open our arms. Hillary should have dropped out after Obama won 11 in a row, by that time the "shame on you" Obama and 3 am ad that began the real irreversible divisions that would intensify until the end would not have happened and it would have healed long before the convention.
That being said Hillary was gracious after the primaries but in a kind of superficial way, but she will vote for Obama and will demand others do the same, even if their enthusiasm isn't there. She understands the importance of electing a Democrat...so follow her lead. I don't ask you to like Obama, but I expect you to be a Democrat or don't ever call yourself a Democrat again.
I was for a while rooting for Hillary to be VP to reconcile the broken party, but then I realized Bill just couldn't get over it like a spoiled child who didn't get his toy.
Hillary is not VP because of Bill. Shame on HIM.
August 23, 2008 9:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
You wanna know why folks aren't coming into the fold? Bullshit like this. Bullshit that says "we won, you lost, get over it, loser. By the way, thanks for your vote, we get to decide what's important and, oh yeah, can you send some money?"
You keep suggesting that Clinton -- either one -- owes Obama something. Their supporters, their fundraisers, their passionate support. This after a campaign that talked about Hillary's feeling entitled. You don't even see the hypocrisy; all you see is nyah nyah nayh, we won we won we won.
And if you don't figure out a way to bring in those who you need in order to win the election, then you'll hear the McCain people saying the same thing for four years. Of course, to you, it will all be Hillary -- or better yet, Bill's -- fault.
August 23, 2008 11:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama doesn't owe you anything. You don't owe him anything. You're entirely free to vote for McCain if you prefer McCain over Obama. You're free to continue whining, too, if you so choose. It's a free country!
Also let me point out that Obama doesn't need your vote to win, because there are as many of you as you think. He'll lose some votes from people who prefer to nurse a grudge, but that will be offset by others who would have stayed home if Hillary were on the ticket. I'm sure he'd be glad to have your vote, but if you prefer McCain, then that's your choice to make.
August 23, 2008 11:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
So great, Obama doesn't need my vote to win, it's no problem if I vote for McCain, and we can all get along. Obama's not talking to me because he doesn't need me, and that's only natural - effort where needed. Cool, no hard feelings, okay?
August 24, 2008 2:03 AM | Reply | Permalink
PS - If, just if, Obama loses in November, please make sure you don't come back blaming me, because you assured me he didn't need me.
Unity '12, peace, outta here.
August 24, 2008 2:14 AM | Reply | Permalink
So great, Obama doesn't need my vote to win, it's no problem if I vote for McCain, and we can all get along.
It really is no problem, Desidero. If you were producing arguments designed to persuade people to take up some substantive position on an issue, or a candidate, then we would have to contend with you, because your own position might multiply through your words into the position of many people.
But you are not doing that. You are just venting your own personal feelings, along with the usual lame threat tag lines of the form "Attend to my needs, or else". Thus you are just one lonely, frustrated, sad person without a target audience. So go ahead. Jump. No election has every been decided by one vote. You don't matter.
August 24, 2008 2:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
What he said.
August 24, 2008 3:12 AM | Reply | Permalink
you will earn every bit of my unending scorn
Oh no! Not that!
This election, be a Democrat or be an enabler.
I think you meant AND.
I do agree thought, that having one's own candidate defeated by the voters is a lousy reason not to vote for Obama. Especially when there are so many good reasons.
August 23, 2008 9:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm afraid your barbs might be too subtle.
August 24, 2008 3:12 AM | Reply | Permalink
That's I. Practically Mr. Subliminal.
August 24, 2008 7:38 AM | Reply | Permalink
Great Post, Ripper.
It's all hands on deck time, folks. Barack has been very gracious to Hillary since the end of the primaries, even when Bill damns with faint praise.
As far as I am concerned, if former Hillary supporters feel so slighted as to not vote for Obama, and we end up with a McCain presidency, then don't come bitching about how bad a state the country is in.
August 23, 2008 9:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
Speaking of graciousness and all hands on deck, could it be COSMIC Boy? Why the last I saw you Cosmic Boy, you were kicking the shit out of someone not even involved in a post. Don't be shy... YOU remember. That one by "Hoagie." There was a bunch of you, actually. If memory serves, Hoagie then left TPM, but took a moment to apologize to the gentleman in question. And since it's been a month now, I'm SURE you've also had time to go apologize. How'd that work out? Graciously offered and accepted I hope?
August 24, 2008 2:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
What the hell is your problem, anyway?
August 24, 2008 6:41 AM | Reply | Permalink
Boyish good lucks, an irrepressible wit and excessively good taste. It makes it hard for him to relate to the baser uglier behavior of the typical subhuman.
But if he's telling you to apologize, it's probably with good cause, not that I was there.
August 24, 2008 8:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
if former Hillary supporters feel so slighted as to not vote for Obama, and we end up with a McCain presidency, then don't come bitching about how bad a state the country is in.
Nice bumper-sticker sentiment. "Don't blame me, I voted for Dole."
August 23, 2008 10:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm serious, dammit.
There is too much at stake at this point. Voter turnout will decide this election. There is very little daylight between Hillary's & Obama's positions from the primaries.
If a Hillary dead-ender feels that Obama (and by extension, his supporters) did not personally kiss his or her ass enough, then they really have to get over themselves.
Again, it's all hands on deck. It's not about YOU. It's about OUR FUTURE.
(and by you, I mean Hillary supporters that won't let go).
August 23, 2008 11:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
You are as serious as an impending hangnail. Or maybe you and I mean different things by "serious."
August 24, 2008 7:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
I honestly don't think I have any animosity towards Sen. Clinton, and maybe a bit towards Bill. It's her damn crybaby dead-enders that drive me to drink. They just keep trolling around boards and blogs looking for their ass to be kissed, it's pretty damn pathetic.
You did more harm than good for the candidate you profess to support. You made it next to impossible to even consider Sen. Clinton for the VP spot. And you've effectively killed any chance Hillary could run and win the primary in four years time with your sad sack antics.
Kudos to the covert GOP flamethrowers - job well done. And to the true Hillary identity voter dead ender hanging around hoping to get their ass kissed, turn off the computer and go cry yourself to sleep.
August 23, 2008 11:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hah! Parallel thinking; great minds think alike, etc. :)
August 23, 2008 11:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Vapid minds think alike as well.
Ever been to a tailgate party?
August 24, 2008 2:25 AM | Reply | Permalink
Desidero:"I've got a pocket full of money. And I'm not sold. Close the deal. If you can, if you care."
You're not "the" customer. You are "a" customer. There are others like you, but thankfully not all that many.
You enter Obama's restaurant and start complaining loudly that you'd really rather be eating at Hillary's and insisting, loudly, that you be seated immediately if they want you as a customer, and complaining loudly about not being seated right away even though the restaurant is packed. Then you insist on a better table, while talking very loudly about how much better you liked Hillary's. People glare at you but you don't get the hint. You assert (loudly) that if you aren't happy there then how can they expect to get ANY business from Hillary's, and many of the people around you who used to frequent Hillary's place look away, embarrassed for you. You complain that the ice isn't cold enough and food isn't hot enough and not NEARLY as good as Hillary's and why can't they seem to make you feel more welcome?
The manager comes over. There's a line of people waiting to be seated, and lots of others happily enjoying their meals. The manager says "I'm sorry you aren't happy here" and reminds you that Hillary's has been closed for several months, but points out that Hillary herself endorsed McCain's Diner down on Warmonger Way and offers to get a cab for you.
You leave in a huff, complaining loudly about how you'll NEVER come back and how DARE they disrespect you. The door closes behind you. The rest of the customers burst into spontaneous applause and return to enjoying their meals.
Not perfect meals, but much, much better than the shit on a shingle you'd eat at McCain's rather than let go of a grudge.
August 23, 2008 11:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think you missed the part where I asked to see the menu, and they told me I could just eat whatever they brought me, and then directed me to a room behind the kitchen by the bathrooms where I could stand and eat.
August 24, 2008 2:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, that's sad.
Maybe when you were in that room behind the kitchen, you noticed all the rest of us back there with you. Because none of us get what we want. I'm still waiting for the Great American Socialist hero who is going to pass the Maximum Wage Law and other aggressively redistributive measures. I haven't noticed anybody "courting" me in any recent elections. This is America, and you only get two lousy viable choices. And until the Socialist great awakening comes, its pretty clear to me that Democrats are better than nutbag Republican enablers of corporate crime like John McCain.
August 24, 2008 3:03 AM | Reply | Permalink
So if it's 2 lousy choices, allow me to decide which lousy entree I want and it's no big deal. But no, I would be surprised if world socialism were on the menu.
August 24, 2008 3:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
What, you mean Obama didn't call you up personally to ask you to set his agenda? Oh dear. I misunderstood. No wonder you're not going to vote for him. He calls me every other day or so to make sure he's tailoring his agenda to my personal preferences. I'd give you his personal cell phone number but he made me promise to keep it a secret from any of those Hillary supporters. Sorry.
August 24, 2008 3:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
He could send a message to us through the newspapers. Some of us even read.
August 24, 2008 3:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
Desidero writes:
Most misguided analogy of all time.
Guess what: Hillary isn't the vendor. The Democratic Party is. It is her job to support that structure. So, yes, she does OWE HER PARTY. She derives benefit from her party apparatus and she has credibility as a result of being associated with the party.
That's why she is in it.
You are correct, she owes Obama nothing. But she owes allegiance to the Democratic Nominee -- and that is Obama. If she can't handle that (and she has done little so far to really "campaign her heart out"), she should be booted from the party -- just like Lieberman.
Of course, in true Clinton fashion, it's all about me-me-me, so she will do the minimum she has to, maintaining appearances, while still deriving benefits from the party.
By the way, if you are really that upset about all this Desidero, why not use that energy to help her organize to retire her debt -- most of her so-called "ardent" supporters haven't ponied up much to help her so far.
August 24, 2008 12:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
I would think a buck a piece x 18 million would come close.
August 24, 2008 12:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
You'd think, right?
August 24, 2008 1:14 AM | Reply | Permalink
Compare it to the cost of 18 million SMS's and it might be money better spent.
August 24, 2008 4:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
"text messages" for the American-centric.
August 24, 2008 6:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
Obama PAYS his bills.
Hillary doesn't.
When Obama mismanages money to the tune that Hillary did, then you can comment on how he spends it. Unlike, Hillary, there are no working class people still waiting for that check from the Clinton campaign for services already rendered.
August 24, 2008 7:28 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yawn. This has been another boring propaganda piece from the Obama campaign. Ching. Click.
August 24, 2008 7:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
My, but you are in serious denial.
Sun rises in the East, sets in the West. Is that Obama propaganda as well?
What don't you understand about the news stories on Hillary's accounting and lack thereof?
August 24, 2008 9:11 AM | Reply | Permalink
Again, Obama -- whether he wins or loses -- is doing everything he can to leave the Democratic party better off than he found it. These people who think he's the self-serving Hillary slayer and nothing more just really need to open their eyes. The caterwauling is getting to be absurd.
They and everyone else who's bickering here, from both sides, really needs to read this article.
http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=its_his_party_08
The guy's a workhorse and a brilliant strategist.
August 24, 2008 12:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
She did much more than any losing candidate did before, and that's not enough for the likes of you.
And of course you've never quite figured out that Obama is still the "presumptive nominee", and yet she has still gone along courteously with the idea that he's the nominee.
I gave money to her campaign in early July. You're right, I can do more, but I was also using this as a litmus test to see if Obama's promises mean anything, as well as to see if his followers can see past their own spiteful faces.
See, a funny thing usually happens in elections - in primaries that is - someone wins, and then turns around and tries to smooth the hard feelings, pull everyone into the fold (maybe the losing candidate doesn't go along but the followers are welcomed). But in this one, the loser was branded a traitor, further humiliated, and her followers were given a take-it-or-leave-it ultimatum: "Watcha gonna do, vote Republican? Suck it up. You owe us for all the damage you did." And if you've seen as many action movies as I have, you'll know how that one typically ends. Hey, not just action movies. It was the plot of Coriolanus and one of the causes of the Thirty Years War.
August 24, 2008 1:28 AM | Reply | Permalink
Desi, you are at it again:
Nice assertion. Hyperbolic and no facts to back it up. And not only do you have to prove she's done a lot for the national party since LOSING THE PRIMARIES but you also have to show that it's more than any candidate before. Have fun.
Hang onto your dreams. She lost. And no amount of weaseling changes that fact. She doesn't have the numbers, even when she tried to get MI delegates.
One reason she doesn't deserve the presidency is that she couldn't win the primary when she was the "inevitable candidate" doing everything from controlling the machine of the old party and stacking the primaries with SuperDuper Tuesday to help deliver her "knockout blow".
Spiteful? Look who's talking.
I also don't see how giving more money to Clinton has to do with a litmus test for Obama.
In fact, I forbid you to give any money to the DNC or Obama. Okay? Now you have no power at all.
We don't need you. Okay? Go away.
I dare you.
I just took away any last vestige of importance you had in the election.
Oh yeah. "Shame on you, Barak Obama"
"The sky will open and the choir will sing..."
How many other Hillary moments do I have to bring up? She ran one of the most caustic primary fights in recent history.
I haven't heard anyone "brand her a traitor" but if she were one, she did the damage before the primary season was over. See above.
Nope, that's not it at all.
You have a choice: suck it up, or vote even further away from your interests. You don't owe me anything. You owe yourself. And if you think that working against Obama, either passively or actively, is line with your beliefs, go for it.
But stop expecting people to worry about your needs and expect to be courted. You are on the losing side of the primary. End of story.
Here are your choices: hop aboard, or resist. If you resist, and Obama loses, you can sit and feel sorry for yourself and talk about "if only Hillary won...". Wouldn't satisfy me, but maybe you enjoy that type of wallowing. If you resist and Obama wins, I hope the party puts your needs way down on the priority list (unless others that were actually on board happen to promote a similar need).
Or you can grow up, and hop aboard.
Either way, your counterfactual condition -- that Hillary will play an expanded role in this campaign and help set policy -- becomes more and more a distant memory. She is on the outside.
And next time, Desi, be brave enough to address my post directly.
August 24, 2008 1:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
In my lifetime I don't recall a losing candidate hitting the campaign trail so solidly for a winner.
Obama did not win on pledged delegates, he needs superdelegates to go over the top, and despite the stated support, these are not counted officially until the convention.
"She ran one of the most caustic fights in campaign history" - sheer nonsense, more propaganda out of the Obama playbook. Hey, but for a woman who wouldn't cry for Katrina, what do you expect, eh?
You didn't hear anyone brand your a traitor because you have your ears plugged and eyes closed, seeing nothing you don't want to see. It's all over the place if you'd stop and look. Read any of Jade or Sean's postings, and they're just a few.
Hillary is on the outside, women are on the outside, most of the policies that interest me are in doubt or on the outside. I had thought there could be accomodation for people who had similar interests to me, but it seems there will be no outstretched hand.
Hasta la bye-bye.
August 24, 2008 3:28 AM | Reply | Permalink
Wow! First, Hillary was the ultimate White House insider with all this experience. Now she is an outsider.
And when I ask for evidence of calling her a traitor, you bring up blogs on TPM?!?!?
I was kinda hoping for people with actual power.
Desidero, you either perversely get off on trying to say stupid things for a reaction (hello, Billy Glad) or you are miserable because you feel put upon by the world. I will say this, I haven't been impressed with your logic -- such as it is.
There is simply no grounding to any of your arguments. But here is the good news, you can keep giving money to Hillary. And vote for Nader. And then sit in the corner and wonder why the country passes you by.
August 24, 2008 9:17 AM | Reply | Permalink
Clearthinker. You said this: "You have a choice: suck it up, or vote even further away from your interests...." "You are on the losing side of the primary. End of story." And "Here are your choices: hop aboard, or resist." Now, you are not the only one I've heard say this kind of thing. But are you at all aware that this is as close to being politically insane (i.e. doomed to fail) as one can be? And yet, from my fellow Obama supporters, I hear it again and again and again. I suspect it has something to do with coming out the tail end of a long/bitter Primary campaign, so let me try a couple of analogies from outside the usual spectrum -
1. In Canada, almost every leadership battle involves a French vs English battle. The English make up 2/3 of the population, so - things could get nasty if they stuck to a "you lost, end of story" line, right? Therefore, they always choose the 2nd-in-command from whichever group loses the leadership. Not a perfect way to do it, but hey, the country functions well, it's pretty civil, etc.
2. Or this. Imagine that 49% of the country voted a certain way for President, and lost. Would you then govern as though you had a mandate for a "my way or the highway" approach? What's that you say? George W Bush did exactly that? Well. How did that work out then?
3. Imagine the entire African-American AND Hispanic populations had voted for one candidate in the primaries. And lost. Don't you think there would have been an incredibly active, day-by-day, outreach campaign by the winner? A raft of policy positions & programs developed to appeal to their interests? Money spent, perhaps even a lieutenant selected from them?
4. Imagine you're a moderate or "maverick" Republican. And you defeated a large Evangelical-backed candidate. Don't you think there would be an entire series of moves made - bitter primary or not - to bring them on-board? You know, commitments to Right To Life, testimonies of how faith had helped you, etc.
Now, to all my Obamanite brethren, I would just like to say this. I DON'T BLOODY SEE THIS YET. I have not seen any major policy offensive designed & targeted to draw in the "losers." I saw no lieutenant chosen. I heard no major speech given. No changes in the campaign promises on how the nation is to be governed.
And frankly, I believe the attitude and approach being taken by my fellow "winners" is yet another horrific result of the god-damned polarization and winner-take-all attitude that the Republicans have inflicted on the polity. i.e. The DISEASE has infected Democrats. Which I hope and believe (because I DO think Obama and his advisors are good people with sane tendencies) will be righted at the Convention.
But right now, ANY noise-making from the Clinton wing seems to be treated by numerous commenters here as the noise of "immature" "children," as "selfish threats," and on and on. I've SEEN the polls people. We all have. And they show that Obama has NOT raised his support amongst DEMOCRATS - and particularly HRC-backers - as high as it needs to go. Yet somehow the anger directed at those who have set their priorities slightly differently, and who have personally LOST, is simply dismissed by large numbers of readers here. Again and again, the vitriol of the primary season seems to be driving it, along with mutual "you did it first/more/worse" claims.
WE are the ones who need to "suck it up." Got it? We WON, and YES, that IS how it works, all you hard-headed political realists.
So how about we come up with something special, something that'll REALLY appeal? And drop the "suck it up," "grow up," you lost-end of story, and "hop aboard or resist" talk. BECAUSE ANY - REPEAT, ANY AND IN FACT, ALL - POLITICAL CONSTITUENCIES MAKE DEMANDS. AND IF THEY ARE NOT ACCOMODATED IN SOME ACCEPTABLE WAY, THEY WILL NOT VOTE FOR YOU.
Which means, YOU lose. So stating that you will not move, and that their only choice is your way... or the highway... or that the demands of "citizenship" or their obligations as "Democrats" require them to come to your side - WHICH DOES NOT MOVE TOWARD THEM - is a losing strategy.
August 24, 2008 3:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
The vacation did you well. Once again, put this up as a standalone post, see who comes.
August 24, 2008 4:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
Quinn:
1) You can't be an Obama supporter unless you will be registering a vote in the US.
2) Desi represents a politically insignificant minority, just like the nutcases running around saying the GWB isn't evangelic *enough*. He is on the extreme outside. We've all agreed he won't give money to the DNC or Obama and he will vote for Nader.
For some, the biggest issue with Obama is that he isn't Hillary -- and for those people, I don't want them near a voting booth because they have fundamental problems with reality.
3) You don't need to convince everyone to vote in a certain direction -- you need to focus on those with open minds. Desi's issue isn't allowing for an open mind. He does rise to the heights of narcissism by trying to get everyone to talk to him and convince him about Hillary.
Does he lead a union?
Does he have a fat check book?
Does he have a thick Rolodex?
In other words, Desi bring nothing to the table except a single vote -- and it's far more efficient to register a new voter or discuss with someone with an open mind.
Bottom line: some people aren't worth the effort because the discussion isn't about the politics anyway -- it's about them. And to those people, I say, God bless you, vote whichever way you wish and best of luck.
August 24, 2008 9:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
I found this at a thoughtful website, take it into consideration. You wrote it:
"The walkabout is beginning, though it's taking time to unravel the rags and vines gathered around my limbs. If I were Lot's wife, I would be lump of crystallized sand by now, looking back, trouble letting go. Focus, determination, one step in front of the other."
Stop with the looking back already. We don't need you turning into some salt post. Use your good writing skills to get the Republicans out of office. Your candidate still seems to be "back there." Focus forward, okay? Let go. Go forward.
-- Terry Carroll
August 24, 2008 1:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
"given that McCain came right out with an ad using Biden's own words against Obama."
Nice try, but Biden didn't endorse McCain over Obama.
Also, I never said Biden was a perfect choice. I accept it, and would have accepted Hillary as the choice if it were her instead.
Still, Biden hasn't said anything nearly as useful to the McCain campaign as Hillary's endorsement. Thankfully her endorsement of McCain is much, much less of an issue since she's not the veep.
August 24, 2008 1:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
Mr Fob, I assume this was meant for me, up above? If so, are we still talking Good vs Evil? And if your answer is "yes," please explain why a system of governance and a nation you so staunchly defend produces so many Evil-doers and Evil-backers? And if you don't like that latter question, maybe go back and look at the initial "choice" which you posed. I believe it's a false one, and one that has produced great damage in numerous societies over the ages. Change it, and the world looks a little different, and a little brighter.
August 24, 2008 1:41 AM | Reply | Permalink
Uh, Perfessur? These questions are getting tuff - can I take a quick look at my study materials? I don't recall this in class.
August 24, 2008 1:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
Bloody educational system's fallen all to hell.
Look. So-called Des. "Are you FER us, or AGIN us? Good? Or Eeeeeeevil?" Now THAT'S the kinda question Bob Bob Bob (Bob) appears to like. Which is also the kind of moronicity (look it up.... it's a real word. Somewhere.) that leads to despairing faces on E-Day. So I'm setting him this test - for extra credit - to see if he's gonna start thinking... or just sit and steam.
'Course, having gotten my teaching certificate from "I Can't Believe It's a REAL School U," I am at risk of having my credentials challenged. So just shut up, and I'll bring you an apple tomorrow.
August 24, 2008 2:12 AM | Reply | Permalink
You construct very nice strawmen. Probably sell them at flea markets, get a good price.
Again, like it or not you're going to get Obama or you're going to get McCain. Conflating that short-term binary choice with your no-doubt admirable long-term goals is disingenuous. Pretending that there isn't a binary choice between Obama and McCain, and whining incessantly about perceived sleights or talking vaguely about other options that aren't options at all (the non-existence of which explains the vaguely part) doesn't change the facts.
Obama or McCain. By all means fit that choice into the long-term big-picture concerns, but don't deny that in the short term, it's a binary choice and we're either going to get Obama, or we're going to get McCain. Which will serve your long-term interests better?
August 24, 2008 2:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
Bob Bob, I'll try one more time.
1st. I am NOT a Hilary supporter, got it? It's kinda important to figure shit like that out BEFORE you start in with your forced choices and references to "whining." Me? I'm in. For Obama. Full stop. But stick your "whining" references up your tuckus, willya? Cause I ain't whining - I won, remember? What I'm trying to do is IMPROVE OUR CHANCES OF WINNING THE IMPORTANT THING.
2. Binary's a nice-sounding word. Better than your earlier choice of "Good versus Evil." However. It's a crap way to think about politics. Anywhere, anytime. Politics is NEVER binary. Why? Because the simple fact that there are two NAMES on a piece of paper is CODE for about 1001 policy positions, staffing/team choices, geographic concentrations, messages and verbal commitments. And they constantly CHANGE. Got that? They changed again today. By choosing Biden, every single word and choice and policy that Obama has set out has been just slightly (or in some cases, majorly) modified. On voting for Iraq, on what Obama's faith means, on banking reform, on the value of experience, etc.
3. WE contribute to the meaning of those 1001 factors, and the direction and timing of their changing. People who write here that "nothing we do on this site matters" are either disingenuous or idiots. Don't believe me? "We are the change that we've been waiting for." Nice way to say both that we CAN change things & that we can do that through 1,000,001 means.
4. This has nothing to do with short vs long-term. I can, and will, change this election, now. Not a lot, but some. So will you. This is life. To believe otherwise is to have absorbed yet another Republican Big Lie - that you can do nothing & that it's better to "Go back to sleep, America" as the great philosopher William Hicks once said.
5. Good versus Evil - your other chosen "binary" division of the day - is one of the most worrying, conceptual frames on the loose in America today. McCain may well DO evil. Obama may well MEAN good. But life is complex, and the two are always mixed with at least a little of the other. To not see this, and take it into account, risks tyranny. Who says so? Why, Obama himself. which is why he's always going on about reaching across the floor and being the Unity candidate and such.
Somedays, you know, I really wish Obama's own followers would listen to the guy.
August 24, 2008 4:04 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm going to have to make a Quinn's Greatest Hits collection soon. You can be the Bukharin of this revolution.
August 24, 2008 4:24 AM | Reply | Permalink
That's the 2nd reference I've gotten like that this week. To someone who died, aged 49. Makes me a bit nervous..... come on 50, come ON 50, for GAWD'S sake, come on 50!
August 24, 2008 4:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
Scusi, Bukharin? I meant Bukhifüller - he lived to a ripe ol' age, didn't he?
August 24, 2008 4:50 AM | Reply | Permalink
Ahhhh BuckyFuller, now you're talkin'! He's kin! (And even better, long-lived.) right now though, I'm shooting for 50. Just to be safe. Sleep may help. Good to be back... don't spraypaint the place while I'm under. (Although a little more orange would do nicely in the bathroom....)
August 24, 2008 5:03 AM | Reply | Permalink
Exploding tints over the shower curtain...
August 24, 2008 5:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
Like it or not, the next President will be either Obama or McCain. If your interests would be best served by seeing McCain elected, then vote for him, or perhaps merely use your considerable writing skill to undermine support for Obama. If your interests would be best served by seeing Obama elected, then vote for him.
You're confusing the immediate choice in front of you with strategies for the bigger picture of long-term improvement. I can accept very easily that Obama may not be your ideal in that big-picture sense. But that doesn't change the fact that the immediate choice comes down to Obama, or McCain.
Perhaps you've convinced yourself that although McCain will do far, far more damage by his SC picks and his warmongering and his economic claptrappery and so on, BUT it's still in your long-term big-picture best interests to see Obama defeated. Kind of a "destroy the village in order to save it" sort of philosophy. I think that's nuts, but it's a position that one might argue for, and an argument in which the short-term binary choice between Obama and McCain isn't replaced with wishful thinking and/or incessant whining.
August 24, 2008 2:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
I thought this was a serious, politically minded website. But it seems that for some reason it draws this thin-skinned crowd who needs catharsis and a million little kisses where it hurts when their candidate loses, and all kinds of extra-special treatment for coming in second. Take it somewhere else, please. In the immortal words of Hillary, "If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen." That, by a person who is now acting a lot more mature than her "supporters." Well, support her, damn it! She's backing Obama-Biden. Many of you have said so right here in this thread. Want to get McCain elected? Then start calling yourselves "McCain supporters." He has a website. Go check out your new company. We've got an election to win.
August 24, 2008 1:32 AM | Reply | Permalink
Go take a hike yourself, I hear www.whywonteveryoneloveobama.com is up for sale. Come back when you realize not everyone has to be a mindless get-on-board tron to be an acceptable Democrat and that public servants typically court voters, not the other way around.
August 24, 2008 1:50 AM | Reply | Permalink
So *who* are you going to vote for? No one cares if you love Obama.
You remind me of the child that threatens to hold his breath if he doesn't get his way.
I can usually wait that one out...
August 24, 2008 2:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
No one's offering me anything. They're just calling me a child. Saying I'm unreasonable to ask for anything. Just vote for Obama or the McCain boogieman will get me, bringing back coat hanger abortions and wars throughout the Middle East.
I think I'll vote for Nader unless McCain picks a really good female Veep.
August 24, 2008 2:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
I think I'll vote for Nader unless McCain picks a really good female Veep.
No you won't. You're lying. And it's obvious, which is one reason why nobody is taking you seriously.
You are being treated like a baby because you are, in fact, a baby. And there is nothing anyone could actually "offer" you that would get you to stop acting like a baby, because your stance is just a pose, and has nothing to do with matters like "campaign finance reform" or other alleged issues concerns.
OK, maybe Barack Obama could show up on your doorstep with a corsage and a "Please Forgive Me for Beating Hillary" card, and that would have some effect. But it's not going to happen princess.
August 24, 2008 3:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
So tell me, O Karmac the Magnificent, how will I vote?
And please take into account that I've never in my life disliked followers of any Democratic candidate or even many Republican candidates so much as I dislike a large portion of Obama followers. You might say that should make no difference, but these are the people that get appointed to thousands of positions around government to implement policy. And this attitude that I should just shut up and accept his brilliance and it'll all be okay really really really turns me off.
Okay, so what's my vote?
August 24, 2008 3:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
PS - I keep saying, "Offer me something" and the only answer I get is "there's nothing we could ever offer you that'd be enough". So you make no offer. What uncreative minds. Jesus, you could have tossed up a pack of gum just for humor's sake. What a bunch of fucking insulting unfriendly losers.
August 24, 2008 3:50 AM | Reply | Permalink
The Supreme Court of the United States
August 24, 2008 4:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'll take it - when do I start?
August 24, 2008 4:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
Coincidentally, the same day as Clearthinker. Can't wait for the Minority opinions to start rolling out. From someone.....
August 24, 2008 4:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm going to send mine in code - obscure lyrics from Top 40 hits.
August 24, 2008 4:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
I don't know how you will vote. But I know that you are probably an educated, informed voter who almost certainly decided long ago how you were going to vote. The rest is a game: pretending to be undecided so that you can get somebody to "court" you politically or emotionally. Sorry, nobody's buying it, so these entreatments and flatteries aren't going to be forthcoming.
August 24, 2008 10:32 AM | Reply | Permalink
Good, now we have that settled, vote for Nader.
Now you have nothing to complain about.
August 24, 2008 3:17 AM | Reply | Permalink
I placed this at the wrong spot just a moment ago. It goes here.
***
I found this at a thoughtful website, take it into consideration. You wrote it:
"The walkabout is beginning, though it's taking time to unravel the rags and vines gathered around my limbs. If I were Lot's wife, I would be lump of crystallized sand by now, looking back, trouble letting go. Focus, determination, one step in front of the other."
Stop with the looking back already. We don't need you turning into some salt post. Use your good writing skills to get the Republicans out of office. Your candidate still seems to be "back there." Focus forward, okay? Let go. Go forward.
-- Terry Carroll
August 24, 2008 2:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
My candidate is whoever reaches out to me and tries to represent me - not 100% but within reason.
August 24, 2008 2:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
When you watch news on the television, do you also think that the anchor is talking directly to you?
August 24, 2008 2:25 AM | Reply | Permalink
He is trying to reach viewers like me, as are the other stations.
From what I can tell, I don't get ObamaTV in my neighborhood, and every time I've called up to ask they say they're not planning on installing anytime soon, but if I want to move across town to an area where they have it I'm free to but it's really not necessary.
August 24, 2008 3:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
PS You still haven't answer the question. Which leads me to believe that you simply want to have your last chance to get in a spotlight for yourself.
August 24, 2008 2:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
Heh. You're getting whackier by the moment. It's all about you, you, you. The candidate has to reach out to *you* or else, by golly, you'll just let McCain win and stack the supreme court with Scalias and start a couple wars or four or five and wreck the economy even more while making sure the very rich get very richer, and wow won't that just teach those Democrats not to disrespect Hillary.
August 24, 2008 2:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt there in assuming that you don't support the "war first" foreign policy of McCain, and that you don't support putting Scalia-clones on the supreme court, and that you don't think the very rich should get a lot richer a lot faster at the expense of the middle and lower classes, etc., etc. And that you can see that Obama, while not perfect, will do a lot better on these huge issues than McCain ever would.
But then, if I give you that much benefit of the doubt it looks like you're just angry and spiteful and disingenuous. Hey, Senator Obama, it's like, cool and all that you wouldn't go start so many wars like that other guy with the white hair and all but you won't say sorry for hiring that Solis-Doyle thing which really hurt my feelings so I'm just not sure which of you to vote for unless you'll visit me in person and grovel for a few hours, k?
August 24, 2008 2:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
You guys forget that we've had a year or more of bullshit framing around Hillary, so now that you start putting bullshit framing around McCain, we're just immune. Sure, there are things to hate about McCain, but your hysteria is not going to get me to jump. I first think a Democratic Congress will restrain quite a bit, and I'm not sure where the Obama giveaway will line-up with the McCain suckfest.
August 24, 2008 3:38 AM | Reply | Permalink
My candidate is whoever reaches out to me and tries to represent me - not 100% but within reason.
Well, both candidates have already made their positions quite clear on the hundreds of issues that are actually of policy relevance. Presumably, you have done your homework and already know what those positions are, and therefore know that one of those candidates clearly represents you much more than the other candidate.
If you are still waiting for some candidate to do a better job "reaching out", then you must be waiting for that candidate to reach out to stroke your hair or suck your toes. It's not going to happen, diva. Even John McCain is too busy planning his wars to waste time on that kind of pampering. You'll just have to get back in bed with your box of chocolates, your kleenex and your puffy "I Heart Hillary" prom photo album and wait until next election.
August 24, 2008 10:51 AM | Reply | Permalink
"The walkabout is beginning, though it's taking time to unravel the rags and vines gathered around my limbs. If I were Lot's wife, I would be lump of crystallized sand by now, looking back, trouble letting go. Focus, determination, one step in front of the other."
August 24, 2008 2:04 AM | Reply | Permalink
So whatcha waiting for, pull up a pail and shovel and start digging.
August 24, 2008 2:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
Decider, as you've said in your own words, you need to remember the words of Kazantzakis (Saint Francis) - "all roads lead to the earth - God is an abyss - jump!!!"
August 24, 2008 2:11 AM | Reply | Permalink
Very good, but you have to decide which abyss.
You must remember this. An abyss is just an abyss. To die is just too high. The fundamental things apply. As time goes by.
August 24, 2008 2:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
Messed up the timing:
You must remember this
Abyss is just abyss
A dive is just a dive
The fundamental things apply
In free-fall flight.
August 24, 2008 6:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
Des:"I think I'll vote for Nader unless McCain picks a really good female Veep."
Right, because if McCain has a good female veep then he won't go around starting wars that will get lots of people killed and damage our country in numerous ways.
August 24, 2008 2:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
I don't believe the hysteria on McCain, so there you have another problem. Perhaps you need a shot of a girl pulling petals off daisies to make your point better?
August 24, 2008 3:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
Because the Electoral College and all its implications will be carried away by the pretty pony Cindy McCain promised to by me right after the election.
Protest votes are for the primary, like I did not vote for MoJo in the WV primary in May. I was out of love. But his fall, since I know it effects how many delegates our county gets to send to the state Democratic Convention in 2012, I will fall in line.
As all those people who voted for Nader in 200 if they really think that the country would not be in a different place now after 7.5 years of President Gore than we are now with Mr "C- student and proud of it and by the way I used to blow up frogs for fun as a kid" Bush as #43.
August 24, 2008 3:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
Des:"And of course you've never quite figured out that Obama is still the "presumptive nominee", and yet she has still gone along courteously with the idea that he's the nominee."
Funny how that happens pretty much every year, in both parties, with the presumptive nominee taking charge based on the presumption that they'll be the nominee, and the other candidates being courteous about the whole thing if they hope to have a future in their party. But, um, kudos to Hillary for doing what most losing candidates manage to do without anyone feeling the need to draw attention to it or pretend it's some royal favor being granted that everyone else should gaze upon with humble awe and gratitude.
August 24, 2008 3:11 AM | Reply | Permalink
Most losers aren't anywhere close. Obama couldn't close the deal without the gracious help of the Democratic leadership to push all the superdelegates into position. So yes, it is a unique year, and in her unique position she was quite gracious.
But wait! On the day of the last contest she didn't immediately conceded! Burn her! A witch! She waited 3 days!!! And she mentioned Bobby Kennedy!!!
August 24, 2008 3:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
Early on, most thought Hillary would be the nominee and most were fine with that. Go Hillary, go Dems! Then Obama surged, people coalesced, and many were not fine with that.
And she had an idiotic strategy that showed she was woefully unprepared and trusted the wrong people. Then this insansity started how it was sexism. (As Anna above and others have said, where does the leave the Speaker of the House?!)
When she outright lost, she was careful to pay lip service but everything she does shows she is not in it, and she dog whistles the same to her supporters who are also not in it. Because of her behavior. Now she's doing a fucking roll call vote, and the only reason is selfishness. So it's a little hard to feel the love. She'll probably never approach nomination again, because of her poor spirit and inexplicable sense of entitlement. She gamed the system to get where she is, and she is thoroughly ingracious about it. People recoil.
I think this is just the way it is in 2008, not ours to control, but hers.
August 24, 2008 5:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
I can dig it she can dig it he can dig it we can dig it! Might I suggest that rather than arguing with a delusional troll like Des, one's time might be better spent volunteering/donating/talking with undecideds etc...His shtick is just so tired it hurts. Yes We Can! No He Won't.
August 24, 2008 5:41 AM | Reply | Permalink
Might I suggest before talking to undecideds you come up with a more attractive proposition than, "C'mon you stupid dweeb, don't you see you have to vote for Obama?"
Yes We Can. naC eW seY. Anyway you twist it, it doesn't say much, and the We in that construct seems to be conspicuously missing of late.
August 24, 2008 6:33 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for further illustrating my point.
August 24, 2008 12:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
I read this post. What the Hillary folks really want is for Obama to kiss her butt; and Bill's too. I could only imagine what it would be like if the situation were reversed. We would all expect Obama to fall in line. For Bill and Hillary to not do the same is not right.
I'm from Arkansas and have been a Clinton fan since the first time I could vote. I loved Bill and Hillary. Bill was the only candidate to come to Earle Arkansas and campaign for governor. And when he did come to Earle, he went to "our" side of town, not the other. He won. He won because we worked...really hard. And he connected with black people.
Now, both look bitter and angry. Hillary the candidate lost. For all her amazing talents and abilities, she did not connect with black people or in fact MOST people (caucus arguments aside). How could she really connect with black people? If faced with voting for a white woman or a black man, as a black man who do you think I would pick? Someone who understand MY issues. What I deal with on a daily basis. This should not come as a surprise. It's just the first time any people of color have had a real opportunity to make this choice. A real candidate.
I would have never voted for Jessie Jackson and the lot because I did not identify with him. I voted for Bill because he understood ME. I will vote for Barack for the same reason.
August 24, 2008 6:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
You know, it's pretty sad that a post that tells folks that it's time to put grudges aside and get to work to defeat John McCain just adds fuel to the anger of many in the Hillary camp.
August 24, 2008 6:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
Well, I am glad to see that people have been at work all night trying to undermine reasonable efforts.
Desidero--you have to stop using the anti-Clinton idiots as a crutch. Clinging, if you pardon the expression, to the conflict will not gain you anything but trench foot.
Idiots--give it a fucking rest, will you?
Quinn--good points upthread, but it looks like another venue will be needed to go through those.
August 24, 2008 7:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
Agreed all around, roo. Now how exactly do I cure trenchfoot? Gasoline?
August 24, 2008 7:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
No my friend, you take me out of context. She owes the party that she pledged allegence too, not him. You are right, game over!
August 24, 2008 9:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
Glass half empty or half full.
This idiot is not an anti Clinton, rather a Pro Obama!
August 24, 2008 10:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
Glass half empty or half full.
This idiot is not an anti Clinton, rather a Pro Obama!
August 24, 2008 10:03 AM | Reply | Permalink
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