Reader Posts

« previous | TPM CAFÉ READER POSTS HOME | next »

Concerning Georgia and NATO

Some commentators say that the push to bring Georgia into NATO provoked Putin into attacking, at least as a contributing factor.  It primed him to take an aggressive posture with respect to emerging democracies that once comprised the Soviet Empire.  I tend to agree with this premise, at least insofar as it provided a clear cost comparison for Russian intervention.  If Russia were to seek to re-assert its control over Georgia, it would be cheaper and less risky to do so before the latter joined the western alliance.  Furthermore, expanding NATO into the former USSR is most certainly on its face threatening to the re-emerging great power (and potential regional hegemon).  So, the push to bring Georgia into NATO provides both a reason and a time-frame for Russian aggression.

Still, we should not stop there in assessing the prospects of Georgian inclusion in NATO.  Many people look at the current situation and say, "good thing they're not in NATO, otherwise Article 5 would require that we join a shooting war against Russia."  However, this does not address the primary question, would Russia have attacked a NATO member country, knowing full well the commitment of Article 5.  There are two possible answers: yes and no, and determination of which would determine the fate not of Georgia alone, but of NATO itself.  In other words, if NATO is a threat to Russia, Putin might test the strength of the institution by triggering an Article 5 response and seeing if the weapon was loaded.  Then, the future of NATO would depend on U.S. willingness to engage in a fire-fight with Russia.  If we weren't willing to do so, then Article 5 would no longer constitute a credible commitment, at least when facing a real military threat (as opposed to, say, the Taliban, which is a threat, just not a military one). 

Now, I can't say for certain what would happen, and much would depend on the inhabitant of the White House, but I can't see the U.S. being in such a great position to wage another war at the moment.  And Russia attacking a NATO member would require Putin to have a strong gambling streak, which I wouldn't put past him.  But to be clear about what's on the line in allowing Georgia into NATO: it's the institution itself.  In simple rational terms, we would have to decide if the benefits of including Georgia (moral, strategic, or otherwise) would justify the risk to the alliance's survival.


Comments (7)

In other words, if NATO is a threat to Russia, Putin might test the strength of the institution by triggering an Article 5 response and seeing if the weapon was loaded. Then, the future of NATO would depend on U.S. willingness to engage in a fire-fight with Russia. If we weren't willing to do so, then Article 5 would no longer constitute a credible commitment, at least when facing a real military threat (as opposed to, say, the Taliban, which is a threat, just not a military one).

But to be clear about what's on the line in allowing Georgia into NATO: it's the institution itself. In simple rational terms, we would have to decide if the benefits of including Georgia (moral, strategic, or otherwise) would justify the risk to the alliance's survival.

Seems like you've answered your own question. Neither of these options are good. It seems that the only reason we would want Georgia in NATO is to provoke Russia into making this decision to test us or not.

Pushing for Georgia to join NATO is a geo-political power play that we are not in a position to back up. It is a bluff we do not want called. The Europeans understand this and have thus opposed membership.

I can't see the U.S. being in such a great position to wage another war at the moment.

Not just another war. A war against a heavily nuclear armed Russia on their turf. I would hazard a guess that the world has not seen a war like the one we would get with Russia.


sorry... didn't get the italics on the second quote from your post:

But to be clear about what's on the line in allowing Georgia into NATO: it's the institution itself. In simple rational terms, we would have to decide if the benefits of including Georgia (moral, strategic, or otherwise) would justify the risk to the alliance's survival.

Yes, you're absolutely right to point out that a war with Russia could escalate into a full-blown great power war, an entirely different animal than the invasion and occupation of Iraq, or the interventions in the former Yugoslavia.

A different animal to say the least. 4000 dead in that war would probably be a good month. Not to mention the possibility of entire cities being lost should one side feel their back is against the wall.

Putin's no fool. He knows we're full of shit with all this pro-Georgia rhetoric. He's the big dog in the region and he knows it.

We overplayed our hand. And Georgia certainly overplayed theirs.


4000 dead in a second if we we're only so lucky!

Let's not pussyfoot around the elephant. A shooting war with Russia would go nuclear. There, I said it.
And not just tactical nuclear. Nuclear nuclear! As in the end of the world possibilities.

This is a game of brinksmanship and I think we'll blink before they do this time.

Empty rhetoric and bullshit bluffing is what got this mess started, we certainly don't need more of it to make things worse. In the long term, making Russia a 'former' enemy is the best option for us. Making them feel like we're circling the wagons around their house and loading the rifles is NOT the way to go about doing that.

One of the gaping holes in security theory is how conventional wars might escalate to nuclear ones. I wouldn't be so sure that a shooting war would inevitably lead to a Russian nuclear first strike, at least not one initiated from the top. Granted, Putin's a bad actor. He's a rapidly developing tyrant with control over a vast nuclear arsenal. But I'm fairly certain he values his own skin, the lives of his children, and the skyline of Moscow.

The question here is whether we would enter a war spiral or deterrence standoff. Would it resemble WWI plus nukes or WWII plus nukes? There is a raft of literature on this very subject, but the question has received relatively scant attention since the end of the (first) Cold War. I certainly don't know the answer, but I think it's premature to assume with any certainty that inviting Georgia into NATO would spark a nuclear war.

I don't have time to point to the links right now but the Russians have noted they would tactical nukes in more than a few plausible situations of possible encounters with the US. It doesn't seem a stretch to think what our response to that might be.

I agree that there's a reason M.A.D. has worked, but I think people fail to realize that there is no guarantee that cooler heads will prevail. We came much closer than many want to admit before...

Post a Comment

Advertisement
Please disable your adblocker!
Ads are how we pay the bills!

Subscribe

The Coffee House
TPMCafe's regulars

House Brew
From Your Cafe Editor

Special Guests
Big names and big brains

Special Features
Pressing topics and trends

Table for One
An expert's week-long talk.

All Reader Posts
TPM readers discuss.

Book Club Calendar

Coming Soon



Nov. 30-Dec. 4



January 12-16



« Book Club ArchiveFull calendar »

Recent Reader Posts

All Reader Posts »





Masthead

Editor-in-Chief
Josh Marshall



Subscribe to TPMCafe's feed.
Subscribe to TPMCafe's reader blog feed.

Advertise Liberally
Share
Close Social Web Email

"To" Email Address

Your Name

Your Email Address