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The AP Calls Obama Out On Summits

We'll see whether or not the MSN has a "man crush" on Obama or not. 

The AP is calling him out on his reckless promise to hold an unconditional summit with Iran. 

A year ago, Obama was asked whether he would meet personally, without preconditions, with leaders of Iran and other hostile nations during the first year of his administration to resolve differences with the United States. Obama said he would.

On Wednesday Obama said, 'I think that what I said in response was that I would at my time and choosing be willing to meet with any leader if I thought it would promote the national security interests of the United States of America. And that continues to be my position. That if I think that I can get a deal that is going to advance our cause, then I would consider that opportunity. But what I also said was that there is a difference between meeting without preconditions and meeting without preparation."


World class flipping and flopping.  Reminds me of a fish out of water.  No politician should be allowed to get away with "explaining" away the fact that he said one thing to get nominated and another to get elected, especially when the security of our allies in the Middle East is at stake.

Will the rest of the MSN give Obama a pass?  I'm guessing they will.


Comments (234)

Wow. This post appears with four recs, even before it has received a single comment. I think it's destined for the top of the charts.

And yet, I don't know why. This is hardly news. What he said Wednesday, he has said numerous times before. If people can't understand the difference between "without preconditions" and "without preparations", then they're being willfully ignorant. Similarly, if people really assumed that when he said "without preconditions" he meant "without preparations" and then later back-pedaled, they're also being willfully ignorant. Even if GW Bush said this, I would not make such an assumption.

I agree 100%, and couldn't have put it better.

Come on, Alex - he just said, "That if I think that I can get a deal that is going to advance our cause, then I would consider that opportunity." What the hell is that but a huge precondition with a ribbon tied around it. "At my own time and choosing". So much for "in my first year". So now we have 2 fish flopping around on the shore and we have to decide which smells worse. And I'm a vegetarian.

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Whi says fish is brain food? Thanks for clearing that up, Des.

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As I wrote in my comment to Billy, what you're calling a precondition is neither fish nor fowl. Preconditions in the McCain/Bush world is political concession, as in, stop building nuclear bombs or stop allowing your radical elements to send arms to the Sandinistas. Oops, that was Ollie North. Sorry. ...as in stop allowing your radical elements to send roadside bombs to Iraq.

The larger point here is that negotiations from a conflict resolution expert's point of view, of which Obama is well apprised, involve no preconditions except a negotiated time and place, and the willingness to negotiate is proof enough that there is some hope of success.

In the hawk's point of view, you wrestle the other guy to the table. In the conflict resolution expert's world, you spend a lot of time relationship building before you negotiate anything. Too many insular Middle East folks think most of us are screwing anything that moves and laying around doing drugs all day long. They have to get to know us through our leaders when all they've seen is a bunch of name calling and large-scale death threats.

Preach, I think I have a lot of insight into how and where to do negotiations, what kinds of preparations, how to make sure you're not suckered, etc. The point is the new candidate of change made these reckless claims about how he'd go in like a fresh breeze and start talking to everyone, and of course used that to blast the other candidate going WTF? So now it's back to negotiating as usual - not the neo-con "only if they give me everything I wanted in advance" type of negotiating, but still, it's a far step from Obama's original position. Similar to public financing - Hillary got blasted for not committing to it, Obama got all the praise, and then 8 months later - voila! Public financing out the window. I've got so many things stuck in my craw right now I have to shop for a bigger one.

Cough 'em up, kitty! Smack! Smack!

Eeeeeeeew..... I could use that one as a slipper.

I'm not here for the argument. I'm just one of those cardboard cutouts they put at the entrance to a funhouse. I'm carrying a small sign that reads "Proceed at own risk. Beyond this sign, not everything is what it seems."

Sock puppets of the TPM world, unite!

How is this a flip-flop? It looks the same to me.

The actual question was:

"Would you be willing to meet separately, without precondition, during the first year of your administration, in Washington or anywhere else, with the leaders of Iran, Syria, Venezuela, Cuba and North Korea?....."

"I would," he answered.

I think a world leader should always be willing to talk, don't you?

This one has been beaten to death for all that it is worth. It will help the McCain campaign about as much as the lefts facination with McCains Czecholsolvakia gaffe. (meaning it will actualy hurt their cause)

One must understand that the GOP's 'precondition' for talks with iran about it's nuclear program is that it discontinues it's nuclear program.

You type fast.

At the rate Barack is going, his ability and willingness to bullshit anyone and everyone for the purpose of achieving his political aims will surpass that of Bill Clinton even before he's elected. This man's in a hurry.

The differences which seemed evident between Bill and Barack during the primaries were as exciting then as the similarities between them since the primaries have been disappointing.

I'm no longer confident — at all confident — that the Barack I used to regard as a potentially great agent for systemic change is any more invested, personally, in systemic change than was Bill. I thought I was supporting someone who wanted to change the system, and in at least some ways to change it radically. But it seems not.

If Barack has passed the test for anything in the past few months, it's that of Manipulator in Chief. With Bill we had triangulation. With Barack I'm looking forward to quadrangulation, quintangulation, and onward from there.

There's nothing inherently wrong with "angulation," which is just a way of creating consensus. But to what end? Bill triangulated to favour the centre and the right, and so succeeded in further marginalising the left. That's all I've seen Barack do since the primaries ended.

I won't claim he's perfect, but on this issue?!?

He's merely "refined" his previous statement by saying the obvious: "without preconditions" does not mean that he'd be going over there blindly. It's not something that really needed to be said, IMO, other than to counter the Republican (and other anti-Obama) spin. This is not Obama's spin. This is Obama's response to other people's spin.

Billy, are you collecting McCain troll points now?

No. I don't care who wins this election. I'm not into politics anymore, just into culture. The text of this post is the question about how extensive the so-called man crush of the MSM (sorry for the MSN typo, but most seem to have caught it) really is. I think this flip is a good test.

The subtext is the question of how reliable Obama's promise of support for Israel is. He has said a lot of things he didn't mean. He would filibuster the new FISA, he could never reject his pastor and his church, for example. Right now, he could never meet with Iran without preconditions.

Preconditions means, of course, that the Iranians would not have had to do anything first. He'd meet personally with the head of state of Iran and go from there. He has now assured Israel that he didn't mean what he said in the debates. He's using preparations to mean the same thing as preconditions. But the question remains, can someone who has said what people want to hear to gain the nomination be trusted not to say what they want to hear to get elected and then do what is convenient after he's in the White House?

I understand the Jews in this country favor Obama by two to one, while the Jews in Israel favor McCain. What's the difference, I wonder?

Billy: "I understand the Jews in this country favor Obama by two to one, while the Jews in Israel favor McCain. What's the difference, I wonder?"

I wouldn't claim to know, but I might hazard to guess that it has something to do with why the vast majority of Jews in Israel also support the undemocratic, racist, ethnic-cleansing policies of the Jewish state against Israeli Palestinians; or their support of apartheid in the West Bank and Gaza; or their support of daily, military violence against Palestinians who are entirely innocent of anything; etc., etc., ad infinitum, ad nauseam.

You think they see it as a matter of survival, or are they just sadistic warmongers?

Both. And then some.

You think the situation will change when the European Jews die off?

No, the European Jews are already dying off. The majority of Israelis, or plurality, come from Arab nations where they were actually or constructively expelled. They are some of the more militant and uncompromising Israelis. I don't know where the majority of the new Russian immmigrants fall in terms of the political spectrum.

Bruce, are you familiar with the work of Mubarak Awad? Opinion?

The Jews in Israel have a dog in the fight. The ones in the US have the luxury of betting on uncertainties.

The difference between planting an olive tree and watching it grow and paying to have an olive tree planted?

In someone else's back yard.

survival of sadistic warmongers

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For someone who doesn't care about politics, you sure pay a lot of attention to details.

But honestly? I can't take anyone seriously who 'doesn't care' who wins this election. Saying that just invalidates any other opinions you might have.

I know you won't understand why, but trust me. As a casual reader here, who has no idea who you are or what your agenda is, reading that just makes me disregard everything else.

Sorry to hear that. My view is that if the culture is a culture of ignorance, it won't promote candidates who truly represent change. You see differences between Obama and McCain I don't see. All I see is a culture of disinformation, ignorance, intolerance, and inertia. I see Presidents marketed like deodorant. I see the people who control the media controlling America and your mind. When I snap my fingers you will wake up and drop out. SNAP!

He's lying. It's commonly called "sour grapes". His girl didn't get the nomination, so now he's refusing to play. BFB.

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I understand the Jews in this country favor Obama by two to one, while the Jews in Israel favor McCain. What's the difference, I wonder?
The most immediate difference is that few, if any, of the Jews in Israel have a vote in US elections.

Billy: "No politician should be allowed to get away with 'explaining' away the fact that he said one thing to get nominated and another to get elected."

This should apply especially to his supporters, but if those here are any example, they don't even see the difference. With such blind support, what incentive does Obama have to do other than to continue to bullshit his way to the presidency?

No, actually, we do see the difference between "without preconditions" and "without preparations". Don't you?

Maybe I'm missing something, but if so, please clear it up for me.

What he said in the debates was without preconditions. Why don't you spell out the difference between preconditions and preparations for us, Ben? Then we'll know what you're talking about. Thanks.

Really, Billy?

OK, here goes: they don't have to make any (political) concessions prior to us meeting with them. That's "without preconditions". However, there will be obvious safety requirements met. Obama will not be in harm's way. We might make arrangements for when and how long to meet. Those are preparations.

Only an extreme literalist would make an argument, for example, that "without preconditions" means that Obama would be willing to meet a foreign leader without a guarantee for his safety.

So your position is, Ben, that Obama will still meet with the head of state of Iran without any prior political concessions? Frankly, Ben, I wish it were. At least that would be consistent and trustworthy. The fact is, however, he has changed that position and will now require political concessions. Otherwise, AIPAC would trash him. Luckily for Obama, they understand what Obama is saying, even if you don't. For a long time I have suspected you're just a little slow on the uptake when it comes to getting the point of Obamaspeak. Now I know it. Of course, AIPAC, Israel and American Jews still have to decide if Obama's latest position can be trusted.

It sounds like you're saying that Obama has a special language ("Obamaspeak") that one has to be able to understand. That we can't just look at his language and context like we would with an ordinary politician. Personally, I try to hold him to the same standards I hold other people. I don't see any back-pedaling here. I've re-read the article you posted, and I'm still not seeing these mysterious "pre-conditions" that have suddenly been tacked on. He's said he'll make offers (presumably at these meetings that were held without preconditions), and "if Iran then rejects any overtures of that sort, it puts us in a stronger position to mobilize the international community to ratchet up the pressure on Iran."

No preconditions works both ways. He's not going to agree to preconditions himself prior to meeting with Iran or anyone else.

I definitely rest my case.

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Video at 11.

It's such an asinine argument. Billy knows damn well what the difference is. He's just pretending he doesn't because he thinks being exasperating and winning an argument are the same thing. If Billy can't understand the difference between a precondition and preparation, I'd say he needs to buy a freakin' dicktionary.

Aye, it's called sophistry.

Another lamer, acting out his avatar.

Precondition: A condition that must exist or be established before something can occur or be considered; a prerequisite.

Obama: "I think that what I said in response was that I would at my time and choosing be willing to meet with any leader if I thought it would promote the national security interests of the United States of America."

So if a leader wants to meet him at a time that isn't of his choosing, what then?

What if Obama thinks a meeting would not promote the national security interests of the United States of America? What if just about everybody else did, but he didn't -- much as has been the case with Bush — what then?

Obama: "And that continues to be my position. That if I think that I can get a deal that is going to advance our cause, then I would consider that opportunity."

What if he doesn't think he can get a deal? Or what if he thinks he can get a deal, considers it, but upon such consideration decides he'd just as soon play some pickup basketball?

No preconditions means no preconditions. What the hell are these — at my time and choosing; if I thought it would promote the national security interests; if I think that I can get a deal — when I say so, and if, if if — if not preconditions?

Come on, Ben, you don't need me to explain the obvious to you, so why am I having to do it? I'd appreciate it if you would actually answer that.

It seems like you're being too much of a literalist here. You need to put Obama's statement in context. During the Bush administration, he has often refused to meet with foreign leaders without getting concessions first. That's what he means without "precondition". I thought that was fairly obvious the first time he said it, before he "refined" his statement at all.

Saying that they'd have to agree on a time and place seems like common sense to me, not back-pedaling. Would he also have had to clarify that he's not going to agree to meet naked, or would that also be imposing preconditions? I mean, really, common sense has to over-ride literalism at some point, doesn't it?

So holding Obama to his word becomes being too much a literalist. We should just take to lofty vague words and not try to pin them down to reality and context. This is bitter medicine, man - "We told you we were going off the cliff" "Come on, we knew it too, but you were so uptight about it - relax!!!"

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Exactly. These clowns are trying for a gotcha moment, and they're coming back with the same junk as Katie Couric, and they're satisfied that this is indeed, a gotcha. Get a grip Desidero, Billy Gladd. Putting words in Obama's mouth and then arguing with those words, or your presumption of what those words that you put in his mouth mean, is not any kind of valid method of debate.

Oh, and just to be clear, in case you thought I was avoiding this:

Obama: "And that continues to be my position. That if I think that I can get a deal that is going to advance our cause, then I would consider that opportunity."

What if he doesn't think he can get a deal? Or what if he thinks he can get a deal, considers it, but upon such consideration decides he'd just as soon play some pickup basketball?

Again, this seems like common sense. He can't meet with every world leader every time they want to meet. He has to prioritize. Would you really want him to meet if he thought there would be no chance of any benefit from the meeting?

Would you want him to, or are you just interested in playing "gotcha" with his original phraseology? It doesn't seem like you to want to play such a game, so I really don't understand where you're coming from.

Do you want him to abide by his original statement, and be willing to meet anyone, anywhere, naked/clothed/whatever, or are you merely wishing he hadn't made the original statement? If the latter, please explain, because I don't understand how it would trouble you to the degree you seem to be indicating.

See JohnDoe's comment above. It was a simple, unambiguous question. Barack gave a simple, unambiguous answer. And he was applauded for it by me and others of like mind — including you, I imagine. As JohnDoe asks, "I think a world leader should always be willing to talk, don't you?"

If you can't see the difference between Barack's original, simple, unambiguous answer and the preconditions he's tacked onto it since then to undermine his demented critics, all I can suggest is that you look again.

What are the preconditions he's tacking on now, in your opinion? Maybe that's what I'm missing. I've re-read the article Billy posted, and I'm still not seeing them. He's still willing to meet with these people, as far as I can tell. He's not going to force them to make political concessions before he meets with them, as far as I can tell. Other than saying they'd need to agree on details (place and time), what are these preconditions that concern you?

Somewhere, over the rainbow, bluebirds fly.

Yawn.

The word preconditions has a literal meaning, and there is one in the dictionary. But we are talking about a specific context here.

"Preconditions" in this context clearly means the other side has to make a substantive concession before the meeting takes place; or it will not happen at all if the concession is not made. Do you need examples or do you comprehend?

A reasonable understanding of this issue is that Obama would not require concessions on the subject of negotiations themselves before he would meet. Is that really so hard to understand. Is it really so hard to understand that this position in and of itself is what Mrs. Clinton and Mr. McCain are opposed to.

You are being obtuse if you think that saying the meeting would have to be in the interest of the US, or be worth the time of the President, somehow violates the meaning of "without pre-condition". Obama was not announcing open casting calls. This is not hard to understand.

Hold that yawn, please.

Wow, since when did "no preconditions" mean at anybody else's fookin convenience. Are you actually trying to twist this phrase into some type of ironclad meaning that you impose?

And besides, since when did clarifying a point because some asshats keep trying to twist it into something become flipping?

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No, we just don't have a problem with saying what is essentially the same thing in 2 or more phraseologies.

Billy: AP did not call Obama out, as you put it.
It is only the McCain campaign -- echoed here by you --that is alleging a flip-flop.
And you're both wrong.
Obama never "promised" a summit meeting with anybody.
He gave a straight answer to a primary debate question, then fleshed it out for reporters after critics jumped on it.
The elaboration he gave then was precisely the same as what he said today.
No flip-flop has occurred, period.

Read the article and the block quote. Straight from the AP. When you contrast Wednesday with a year ago, you're calling someone out. So I, the AP and the McCain campaign are all wrong. You, the echo chamber and the Obama campaign are right. I wish you the joy of that. But I don't live in Israel.

Just to be clear, Billy, you're the one echoing here. This point was brought up immediately after the debate as that was when he first responded to the critics trying to spin his statement into some sort of literalist silliness. It was brought up then, and it's been brought up several times since.

That is an echo.

Which, from you, is quite entertaining. (Not that it's the first time, it's just that you love to echo your refrain about the echo chamber quite often.)

Ben, you missed the point then, and you're missing it now. I've always suspected the other Obamanuats find you a little embarassing. Nice, but not quick. No offense, but why not let someone else carry the ball for a while? I'm sure you're brilliant at what you do. Culture is just not your thing.

Nice pivot to the personal attack, Billy/Bully. Must be wonderful to know you are always the smartest person on the thread.

I consider his rather relentless pursuit of me down the thread to be a form of attack. I believe in dialogue. I don't believe in butting in constantly. Especially to promote the same misunderstanding of the situation. You tolerate him if you want to. I don't have the patience. He ended up saying Obama would still meet without pre-conditions. After all that jazz, he got Obama's current message exactly backwards. What should I do? Cover up for him?

OK, fair enough, Billy. I will "pursue" you no further. I didn't realize you felt that way about me.

I appreciate that. No hard feelings. For us, talking is a waste of time.

As lawyers always say, first try to win using the law. If you can't win on the law, argue the facts. If you can't win on the facts, attack your opponent personally.

You know you're right that culture isn't "my thing". What's that have to do with pointing out that you're creating the very echoes that you rail against?

You're comparing what he said Wednesday with what he said during the debate. But what he said Wednesday is not at all different from what he said the day after the debate. Also, as I already pointed out, what he said Wednesday (and the day after the debate) only contradicts with what he said during the debate if you're going to think that "without preconditions" means anytime/anywhere, as opposed to the more common sense assumption that he meant "without political concessions".

Except the "his own time and choosing" excludes cockily accepting that first year biz. Did he renounce that one the morning after?

Do you have a Ph.D. in culturology?

I give up. My comments never end up where they are supposed to. Both of them were meant for Billy.

I knew who they were for. If you don't like what I say, ignore me. Take a hike, bozo.

flaccid

This is just getting sad. Poor Billy.

Ah. Flaccid. Poor Billy. Must have hit bone. Sorry. I thought you were fully anesthesized by now.

Keep rubbing, I am sure you will get some response eventually.

Your mouth is the only stimulation any of us needs.

McJoker is getting the Clinton treatment by the media.

Nah, McCain's too good looking for that...

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too bad it has been proven that AP kneels before Karl Rove:

http://mediamatters.org/columns/200807220006

Absolutely. The question is, does the rest of the MSM stand behind Obama?

If by "the rest of the MSM," you mean "The New York Times," "the LA Times," and "two shows on MSNBC."

And, as Larry says, will he at least get a ....?

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IMHO - yes, but most of them "try" to remain impartial observers. What I do not "get" is the McCain whining about the media - if they did cover him more it would be revealed that he is:

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oops - forgot the image (technical difficulties)

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it was Homer Simpsons' Dad

here is the link

http://www.rdubphoto.com/12345.jpg

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Why are Republican Leaders so afraid to talk to leaders of other nations; doesn't that make them come across as a bunch of nervous cowards who are afraid they will be outsmarted. I guess I can understand their reluctance since Putin completely outfoxed Shrub, and Janus McCain would get lost looking for an imaginary meeting place in an imaginary land.

The Republican Negotiations Motto:

Don't talk to them, those guys are smarter than us.

The last Republican who could get mileage out of the summits was Reagan. But he had the Soviets to play off of, and he was, by all accounts, intimidating in person. I think the idea of not talking to states like Iran is rooted in some conviction that we are so superior to them that the simple act of meeting with them, head of state to head of state, raises their stature. In this case, Israel will not stand for that. I said it a year ago and I say it again. Israel will never allow that summit without preconditions, particularly the condition that Israel's right to exist is recognized, to take place.

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McCain whined about Obama not having been to Iraq for sometime.

Obama visits Iraq.

Since McCain whined about Obama not having visited Iraq, when Obama went there, the MSM decided that since McCain though that such a visit was very important, then they should cover it.

McCain now whines about the media covering Obama's trip, even though McCain was the original whiner that elevated the need for such a trip been a very big deal.

"Hey everyone, pay complete attention to the fact that Senator Obama has not been to Iraq recently.

Hey everyone, stop paying attention to the fact that Senator Obama has just visited Iraq." Senator Janus Whiney McCain

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Where are all the comparison polls that show how every other nationality, other than Jews, rank Obama in their homelands compared to their American communities.

Why does Israel get to be the tail that wags the American Election Dog, but all other nations, great and small, better not interfere.

OK, time to give the people of Armenia, and their American communities, equal time and influence on our elections. Show the polling results from all nationalities, A to Z.

If that sounds like too much work, and smacks of too much foreign influence in our elections, then take the easy way out, just don't do it for any of them, including the foreign land of Israel.

The Jews chose to skip a few lattes or deli sandwiches a week and send that money to Washington. When the other ethnic groups do the same, they'll have just as much influence. Actually the Armenians do pretty well as do the Greeks.

"The Jews" are a diverse bunch. If you speak of American Jews, we are even more diverse. Some of us loathe lattes and try to stay away from too many deli sandwiches for health purposes. I love you des, but geez.

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I'm glad Obama clarified, refined, changed--or whatever--his position on this one. The original statement, I'd suggest, reflected inexperience, which can be rectified. Nothing at all wrong with that.

But his blatant reversals on FISA, handguns, death penalty, campiagn finance can't be attributed to inexperience--these are opportunistic moves of a politician. (Not to mention the disjunction between his progressive rhetoric and his support for corporate energy concerns, his fundraising from lobbyists, his public opposition to progressive Democrats, his softening stance on NAFTA.) These are what the MSM should be challenging him on.

liam, you get an A+ for boiling it down to foreign influence in elections and in foreign policy decisions.

I want the media and the pollsters to let us know what the Greeks, the Poles, the Chinese, the Nigerians, the Brasilians in our fair country think about our upcoming election and the candidates?


I hear nothing from the "traditional" media about aforementioned.


How does that point tie into the thread? Does it have something to do with whether Obama can be counted on to keep his word or not? What the polls show is that people with their lives on the line trust McCain to deal with the Middle East more than they trust Obama. My problem is I'm afraid people like Obama and you are going to trip and drop the fire into the river. No moral center, you see?

Liam, is that you?

Of course it is.