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Let's Get Obama Elected, First!
I'm new to TPM, so allow me to introduce myself..I am a white, female, born-again Christian, long-time registered Republican who is enthusiastically supporting Obama...I know I'm not the be all, end all, but I AM a member of a number of the demographic groups that Obama is hoping to make inroads with, and he has w/ me.
I had intended to sit out this election because there is no way I can reward the Republican party for 8 years of screwing this country up one side and down the other, but I couldn't see myself voting for "hillbilly" either...then I heard an Obama speech, did some research, and have been actually excited about this race ever since.
But now I'm watching in horror as you Dems attempt to implode his candidacy and give the election to John McCain.
I am all for free speech and for exercising your right to vote for a 3rd party candidate, but if you disagree w/ Obama and just can't violate your precious principles and vote for him, even though the alternative is to give the GOP another 4 years to mess up the country, can't you just do it quietly instead going out of your way to bash him and elevate the other side's position?
Threatening to withhold financial support unless Obama supports every one of your positions is harmful, not helpful. If I base my vote purely based on his positions, I couldn't vote for him...So I'm sucking it up and voting for him anyway. I don't consider it a vote for the "lesser of 2 evils", but rather a vote for hope that this country really CAN be changed.I am so sick of "Politics-as-usual" that I am willing to set aside my differences with him and vote for a man that I believe will help put the government back in the hands of the people, take away the power and influence of the lobbyists, restore a pride in our country, improve relations w/ other countries, get us out of Iraq and deal w/ the real war on terror, address the energy problems w/ REAL solutions (not gas tax holidays...give me a break!) encourage people to take responsibility for themselves while providing a little back up for them so they can, and on and on and on.
Many times in the real world you have to make compromises, no place more than in politics. With such a broad range of opinions, consensus is hard to reach. Many times you have to reach your goal incrementally, taking the best you can get first (as in FISA) and then work to edge closer and closer to your ideal...You cannot ram things down people's throats, just because it is what you want. You pick the person that most closely meets your needs, help get him elected, then work to help him accomplish your goals. If you DEMAND that he support your position, even though it is controversial, he cannot get elected and your hopes are dashed for another 4 years. People, PLEASE dial back the rhetoric (and try to have an intelligent discussion w/o the swearing!)...let's get him elected, THEN do your lobbying to get as much as you can of what you want...This in-fighting will do NOTHING except help to get John McCain elected...God help us all...
Comments (84)
Glad you figured it out, and a great first post. :)
July 17, 2008 1:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
No one will be surprised to hear me say I agree whole-heartedly.
July 17, 2008 1:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Rec'd. But I like the swearing.
July 17, 2008 1:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
Red'd. Great first post.
July 17, 2008 1:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
Great blog and fully agree. Recommended for sure. I am still working on the cussing but can get behind a governing majority where republicans, democrats and independents work toward common goals, despite differences in method or metaphor.
July 17, 2008 2:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry, I don't trust you for a minute. You aren't going to vote for Obama. You've said nothing that convinces me you'll vote against your party.
July 17, 2008 2:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
Don't know what I can do to convince you...I'm maxing out my contribution to Obama (as is my husband) and will be going to a battleground state in late Oct. to work for him...is there some secret code word I'm supposed to know if I'm a "for real Obamacan"?
July 17, 2008 3:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
The 'spekt knuckles should be sufficient, but some Democrats are still learning the ins and outs of the secret Obama club. Don't mind 'em!
July 17, 2008 3:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Good question. Try not putting "Obamacan" in quotes? Refrain from using the term "hillbilly"? Try not lecturing people about swearing or how to vote? Try to come up with some original material?
Take your pick. I'd start over with a brand new post and nickname. You're not convincing.
July 17, 2008 4:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
This is your response to an honest blog? You pluck out a single word to be offended by? Have you never used the term "repugnican" or worse?
Never mind this kill joy. Most of the rest of us get it, as do my sister and brother-in-law, both of whom are Obamicans. My buddy from the Navy gets it as well - a Texas republican voting for Barack.
gasket certainly doesn't speak for many of us here.
July 17, 2008 4:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
No. Never. Wingnut, maybe.
I don't say "McBush" or "McSame," I just say McCain. Just doesn't turn my crank. The only one I ever thought was funny was when someone said "Axelrove." But I never use it.
Carry on ignoring me.
July 17, 2008 4:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'll be sure to keep an eye open for the "something worse" that I have seen in the past. Not saying I am perfectly innocent in that regard, but your pose on this is quite comical.
July 17, 2008 4:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
You might not use the words, but you sure are coming from the same spot of dark hostility. Would you be this way to a first time poster if they swore up and down they were a lifelong Dem?
You're not adding anything worthwhile to the conversation. You're just flat out being mean and trolling. I don't ever agree with your posts, but I don't crap all over them. Show others that same respect until they actually give you cause to be a jerk.
July 17, 2008 5:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't care if I have your approval or not, demosaur. It's a public forum, and I wrote out my full critique in a comment to Ben. If you're gullible enough to defend a real troll, there's nothing I can do to make you any wiser. It's a free country; you are free to be trollish yourself.
July 17, 2008 5:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
Then you might as well change your name to 'readytobeanasshole' because that's all you're doing anymore.
July 17, 2008 6:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
Since when is it your business if someone hasn't convinced me that they are genuine? I'm allowed to have a reaction that is different from yours.
July 17, 2008 6:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
You're certainly allowed to disagree, but per comment policy:
No matter your motives, you've been out of line.
July 17, 2008 6:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Then go ahead and tell Dad. You've done most of the attacking yourself, demosaur. Why don't you take a walk around the block and cool down? I've commented that the post was unconvincing. That's not out of line. I also explained why it matters if it's not convincing. You wouldn't abide a "concern post" from me for one bloody minute, so stop with the self-righteous double standard and name-calling, and get under the big tent.
I want stillidealistic to vote for Obama, and I want her to stick to her guns when challenged. I don't want her to blow away when the Santa Ana winds kick up, because they will kick up.
I'm quite happy for her to be a real person instead of a troll. Being real makes her an interesting person to talk to. See?
July 17, 2008 7:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
July 17, 2008 9:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
What is it about "hillbilly" don't you understand, demosaur?
July 18, 2008 10:24 AM | Reply | Permalink
Just so.
Transparent, I'd say. I'm sure we'll hear complaints about your incivilty on other threads, quite soon.
:D
July 17, 2008 8:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
You're going to make a judgment on the basis of one blog?
July 18, 2008 12:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
I had intended to sit out this election because there is no way I can reward the Republican party for 8 years of screwing this country up one side and down the other...
I think that's a good enough reason.
July 17, 2008 3:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Woops, that was supposed to be in response to readytoblowagasket.
July 17, 2008 3:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
Got it, bsuey21. At least you stated a compelling reason.
July 17, 2008 3:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
You didn't have to tell us you are new to TPM. If you had been here more than a few hours, you would have seen these same arguments being made over and over again by Sen. Obama's more ardent supporters.
We've already seen the words "I am all for free speech" used to convey the Orwellian meaning "Free speech will be tolerated provided that the ideas expressed agree with mine." So you're really just giving us more of the same.
We've already seen how Sen. Obama's supporters poo-poo the effect of the Senator's acceptance of legislation designed to further the Bush Administration's incursions into civil liberties. So your repetition of this one was not really needed.
We've already seen Sen. Obama's supporters express their contempt for "precious principles". So the fact that you do not find constitutional principles precious is rather redundant here at the Cafe.
We've already seen the way the Senator's supporters employ the idea that we should support him even though "Obama [doesn't support] every one of your positions" to mean that we should support him even though he represents the exact opposite of many of our most basic political needs. So you're doing no more than mirroring the mirror with that one as well.
You are very welcome here, and it is refreshing to hear from someone with your perspective. But we have heard it all, and hearing it again provides no new insight, except that it is helpful and instructive to see a Republican echoing the same themes as the afore-mentioned Obamians.
If I base my vote purely based on his positions, I couldn't vote for him.
The kind of Democrat I am DOES vote on the issues. To help you understand why: You saw what happened when America voted for "a guy you'd just enjoy having a beer with," right?
So even though it is a truism that "in the real world you have to make compromises," there are some principles one does not compromise very far, lest one compromise away one's soul.
July 17, 2008 3:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
So Tankard, are you saying you aren't going to vote for Obama because a) he took positions you can't support and b) because some of his supporters seem to want to repress free speech?
On the first issue, of course we all have to weigh the importance of any individual position, and for some people there can be a position that is intolerable. If that's true for you, then certainly that's your right, though, again, the consequences of not voting for one of two real alternatives makes it one vote more likely that the other alternative will win - and you know your principles will not be upheld in that eventuality.
On the second issue, the behavior of some people on this forum, which I understand but do not support, should not affect your view of the candidate since nobody here is a direct representative of Obama's, and I strongly suspect that he would favor open expression of ideas. My only caveat, which I've stated over and over, is to have civil discourse on the issues. I'd prefer that they not be attacks against Obama, but that's anyone's right if that's how they want to express their feelings or beliefs. But I can see very cogent discussion going on without threatening support for Obama or vilifying anyone else's beliefs.
July 17, 2008 3:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
In the first place, I'm not even saying that I an not voting for the man. I am not completely unswayed by the fact that he is the far-superior choice.
I have three problems with your second paragraph. First, it is not a single issue. It is several issues. Several basic issues. Several vital basic issues. Second, I really don't find the Bill of Rights to be a negotiable item. Third, I keep hearing people say that a non-vote for Obama is one for McCain, but that's ridiculous. If people are already counting my vote for Obama, they are the ones with a problem. And, BTW, it logically follows from that argument that if I do vote for Obama, that's actually two votes. Laughable.
I completely agree with you about not holding the anti-democratic views of his most brain-dead supporters against him. I'm sure there are even Notre Dame fans who are in his camp, and that is not entirely his fault.
July 17, 2008 6:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
True, I should not have counted your vote. A non-vote is not a vote for the other guy. I think, however, if someone who supports the idea of changing the regime strongly decides not to vote for the only viable alternative, it is a lost vote in a certain sense. But no need to quibble. And although I can certainly understand your disenchantment over certain issues, even if I don't go as far as you do to characterize them, I hope you will vote for him and I also hope he'll rectify some of the things we don't like once in office - something that McCain will not do, and something that none of the third-party candidates will do, either, because they have no realistic hope of getting elected.
Pragmatism is painful, more often than not, but life is not a series of highly moral personal statements, as I see it, but a compromise with the vicissitudes of life. Politics is one of those vicissitudes, unfortunately.
July 17, 2008 9:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
You made me think about how I feel about compromise and pragmatism, and caused me to post this essay.
May we pick up this discussion there?
July 18, 2008 11:28 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, yes, yes good post
July 17, 2008 3:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
If anybody has a reason to vote Mc Cain over Obama or a third candidate because of Fisa, it will be a worse tragedy than electing Bush twice. It would so damage this country it might never recover.
stillidealistic makes excellent points, very glad to welcome. I know many people who are voting democratic, many of them to protest the miserable years & the havoc of the Bush years.
July 17, 2008 3:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
stillidealistic makes no points whatsoever. They are regurgitated campaign talking points. stillidealistic could be a summer intern for David Axelrod for all you know. In other words, a troll.
If that works for you, lastquarter, that's fine. But there are no unique experiential details expressed in the entire post.
July 17, 2008 3:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
It seems you're assuming guilt since you are lacking evidence of innocence. Perhaps you should instead assume innocence without any real evidence of guilt?
Just a suggestion…
July 17, 2008 3:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Trust me on this, Ben. Remember, I never drank the Kool-Aid. I'm not saying you drank it, but you are more willing to suspend disbelief about new posters than I am.
July 17, 2008 4:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
P.S. Not to sound like I assume guilt before innocence, Ben. I came to my conclusion by reading the words in the post. There is nothing the poster has said that gives it a uniquely real, uniquely specific identity. All of the "reasons" for "choosing" Obama are campaign talking points. It's like a pre-recorded message.
July 17, 2008 4:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
There's no guarantee the poster is who she says she is, but I also see no evidence that she isn't. No one comes to their decision in a vacuum, and we're all guilty of using talking points, so I see no reason to doubt her sincerity. Her use of the word "hillbilly" (which I understand annoys you) makes her sound more like a Republican who has come to Obama (very few of them can stand Hillary) and less like someone reciting talking points.
I know there are people here who pretend to be what they're not, but I require a certain level of evidence before I make that claim. I'll acknowledge that what sets off my alarm bells will differ from what sets off other people's alarm bell, but perhaps you should consider that you're alarm might be set somewhat too sensitively—like those car alarms that go off when a strong wind passes by.
July 17, 2008 4:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ben, who do you know better: me or stillidealistic?
I see "concern" in the original post, thus:
1) I'm watching in horror
2) you Dems attempt to implode his candidacy
3) if you disagree w/Obama
4) give the GOP another 4 years to mess up the country
5) can't you just do it quietly
6) going out of your way to bash him
7) Threatening to withhold financial support
8) is harmful
Next come the I-hear-you's (for the grumbling FISA haters) and reiteration of campaign slogans:
1) I couldn't vote for him
2) I'm sucking it up
3) I don't consider it a vote for the "lesser of 2 evils"
4) a vote for hope that this country really CAN be changed
5) I am so sick of "Politics-as-usual"
6) I am willing to set aside my differences with him
7) government back in the hands of the people
8) take away the power and influence of the lobbyists
9) restore a pride in our country
10) improve relations w/other countries
11) get us out of Iraq
12) deal w/the real war on terror
13) address the energy problems
14) encourage people to take responsibility for themselves
15) providing a little back up for them
Mixture of concern with how-to's for staying on-script:
1) you have to make compromises
2) consensus is hard to reach
3) you have to reach your goal incrementally
4) taking the best you can get
5) work to edge closer and closer to your ideal
6) You cannot ram things down people's throats
7) You pick the person that most closely meets your needs
8) help get him elected
9) work to help him accomplish your goals
10) If you DEMAND
11) he cannot get elected
12) your hopes are dashed for another 4 years
13) dial back the rhetoric
14) try to have an intelligent discussion w/o the swearing!
15) let's get him elected
16) THEN do your lobbying
17) This in-fighting will do NOTHING
So convince me otherwise, Ben.
July 17, 2008 5:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Having concerns does not make one a troll. I think she's done a fine job of defending herself below. In fact, she's done such an excellent job of it, that I'm glad you did egg her on.
Sincere question: do you personally know any lifelong Republicans who are voting for Obama? I do, but perhaps if you don't that's part of the reason you're so skeptical—or, if you prefer, that I'm so naïve.
July 17, 2008 6:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Agreed. But calling Senator Clinton "hillbilly" is trollish. It's provocative and uncalled for, I think.
Thanks, I like her defense below too.
I don't know any lifelong Reps who are voting for Obama, so yes, that may well inform my skepticism. Great question.
But I don't think you're naïve at all, Ben. When I said "suspend your disbelief," I meant it not as a personal trait, but as the kind of reader-commenter you are. You don't take people at face value, but you cut people slack (including me). That's a good thing, not a negative thing.
Long story short, I think your word "skepticism" is accurate. Good call.
July 17, 2008 7:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
Nice moment of clarity here. I know three lifelong republicans who are voting for Barack (not to mention the many I read on-line) so it was never that big of a stretch to me. Seemed if Reagan could get democrats then Barack could get republicans.
July 18, 2008 6:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
That's my point, actually. I guess I see it as a virtue where you see it as a vice, or at least a peccadillo.
July 17, 2008 4:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
Please see my numbered points above.
July 17, 2008 5:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
For what it's worth...I believe stillidealistic is who she says she is. I just think it's all so unoriginal. (as one of you may have already noted) It's as if she's studied NCSteve and Jason Miller's best and just cut and pasted. Oh well.
And Ben, since when is calling Clinton "hillbilly" (or Billary or whatever) just a Republican thing? Have you not seen the things Democrats/liberals in here have called her?
By the way, watch what you say about Obama...the MSM is apparently watching us! *Shhhhhh*
July 17, 2008 6:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
I never meant to imply that "hillbilly" is just a Republican thing. I surely know better. It's just that every Republican I know who is voting for Obama or thinking about it, still hates Hillary with an unbridled passion and probably always will.
July 17, 2008 6:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
You got me. I am a closet republican of the Bull Moose variety.
July 17, 2008 7:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ben,
I think your cat's nose is bleeding! Oh wait...that's a tongue? Whoa...freaked me out!
July 17, 2008 6:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Heh.
July 17, 2008 8:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
PS
Voting democratic for the first time to clarify that point.
There are also the polls that are showing republicans losing popularity, now isn't that a wonder?
July 17, 2008 3:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Good post. We all have reasons to want to change the situation that exists today and to hope for a better tomorrow. More of the current regime does not support that hope.
July 17, 2008 3:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Welcome to the nuthouse. Enjoy your rec. :-)
July 17, 2008 3:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
That "compelling reason" mentioned by bsuey21 was in my original post...MY compelling reason...so now do you believe me?
July 17, 2008 3:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
No.
July 17, 2008 4:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
Can we start over? The reason for my original post was to a) let people know that there are former conservative Republicans out there that support Obama because the Republican party has gotten so screwed up that we can no longer support the party, and b) express concern that by Dems attacking Obama, they are giving McCainites hope that the Dems are in disarray and that they may be able to pull this off, AND convince some wobblers that maybe McCain IS a better choice if the Dems don't even like him.
If my presentation came off badly, I aplogize for that. My heart is in the right place. I truly believe that Obama is our country's current best hope for righting itself, and although he is not the perfect candidate, he comes closer than the other choices...
Believe me, there is no one more surprised than me to find myself feeling the way I do...My friends (the liberal ones) are doing the happy dance in circles, in public, my conservative friends and family members have quit sending me anti-Obama propoganda and are skaking their heads in disbelief, and my very right wing son is appalled...but there you have it.
I think Obama will accept my vote, even though I'm not a true Democrat. I'll celebrate w/ you if we win, and cry w/ you if we lose, and I'll keep trying in my own imperfect way to help get him elected.
July 17, 2008 4:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
You said you heard an Obama speech and researched him, but you don't say what you found out. You say you disagree with his positions, but you don't say what exactly you disagree with. You don't say why you would vote for a Democratic administration, which will come with at least some Democrats in cabinet posts. Did you like McCain in 2000? Did you vote for Bush in 2000 and 2004? Why do you bring up FISA? Why are you lecturing people?
Obama's candidacy is not "imploding." He converted you; isn't he capable of converting other people like you? Aren't you going to help with that effort?
July 17, 2008 4:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
Jesus man, I never knew introductory/personal posts now required bibliographies.
July 17, 2008 5:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Stop interfering. I'm getting somewhere with this.
July 17, 2008 6:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yikes!
My very 1st post to this site was as a comment to the post from Andrew Perez. Demosaur sent a reply to my reply that I post my comments to a blog STAT so it could get some recommends, which I did.
I was attempting to be brief and to the point, so didn't expound on the whys and wherefores of my position.
Beware...you're unleashing my passion....
The things I found out about Obama were his humble beginnings, that his was truly an "American" story. That here was a black man who isn't afraid to talk like the intelligent person that he is. That in listening to him speak, I felt optomistic for the first time in a long time. I respected his decision to go into community organizing when he could have gotten a very lucrative job after leaving college. I was excited about the idea that people of color would have a real role model to look up to, not just some guys who can play sports well or screech foul lyrics at our teenagers. I respected his hope that he could avoid distancing himself from his long-time pastor, but understood that he needed to. I appreciated his willingness to talk about being part of a multi-cultural/race family. I LOVE the way he interacts w/ his family.
It's refreshing to hear a Democrat talking about faith based issues. I believe that a great leader can persuade people of differing viewpoints to overlook the smaller isuues and focus on the good of the whole, and IMHO he does that.
I disagree w/ his position on abortion and on gay people adopting children. I have some concerns about the costs of some of his programs, although I appreciate the merits of them. I have children who, between they and their spouses, make about 125K per year and because we all live in California, are still struggling financially, and may well feel a big pinch if their taxes are increased...the list could go on...
Overriding that, he has made me believe that if we all work together we can improve our country (won't bore you again w/ all of what you called my "talking points"). McCain has shown me nothing more than more of the Republicans protecting their wealthy friends, lobbyists running the country, excusing a war that, as it turned out, didn't need to be waged (I was one of those who bought the sales pitch to begin with...don't I feel dumb?) and turning their backs on fiscal responsibility...again I could go on and on.
I feel like the Republicans have screwed things up so badly, how could a Democratic administration (even w/ all it's cabinet positions) do any worse? And isn't it worth the risk, to let someone who brings out hope in our country have a go at it?
I voted for Bush TWICE...1st because I wanted to see what a man who claimed to get on his knees in prayer every day could do w/ the country, and the 2nd time, because in a time of war, I was afraid not to. I regret both votes. Deeply.
I brought up FISA because it seemed to really piss off the liberals that he "caved" on that (not my words...) I felt like he voted for it because it was the best that was going to happen this time around and would revisit it later in better form.
I didn't intend to lecture, just to point out that the vicious attacks by his own party were not helpful from my perspective.
"Imploding" was a reference to the Dems ability to lose presidential races that they should win in landslides...I'm scared that the lack of unity in the party is going to lead to a McCain victory. I'm scared that threatening to withhold money from the Obama campaign for not doing this or that or whatever the issue is will lead to a McCain victory. I'm scared that the polls, however imperfect they are, are not showing a bigger lead for someone who is CLEARLY, at least in my mind, a better choice for the country than McCain. I was attempting, in my own imperfect way to implore you all to get past the smaller issues and unite ENTHUSIASTICALLY behind this man, trounce the Republicans, give him a mandate, not a squeaker, and get this country moving again...so take me out and shoot me. I might be an imposter.
July 17, 2008 5:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
See, now you've gone and made me glad that readytoblowagasket egged you on. ;)
Nice response. I could take exception with a few parts of it, but I won't right now.
With one exception, that is. I don't think we're at the point where we need to worry. We shouldn't get overly optimistic, either, but this graph should allay your concerns somewhat:
http://bp3.blogger.com/_qJGvnOCBQcA/SHq6gGXHISI/AAAAAAAAAf8/hK4IIxXYJXM/s1600-h/image001.gif
Those are projected electoral college votes on the y-axis (and dates on the x-axis), where those electoral college votes are averaged from a variety of other prediction sites. More details can be found at:
http://www.demconwatchblog.com/search/label/Presidential%20Forecast
July 17, 2008 6:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
So did I get sucked into some hazing ritual for the newbies?
Oh, well...felt good to go on a bit of a rant!
I'm OBVIOUSLY new to this...is readytoblowagasket ALWAYS so unwelcoming, cantankerous, and obnoxious?
July 17, 2008 6:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
No she's not, but as her name suggests, she's not the most easy-going person out there. Some of us are more cynical than others, and for pretty much all of us, our cynicism goes up when people say things we disagree with. I can be quite cynical myself, but I rarely try to show it so blatantly. (I.e., I bite my tongue unless I have what I consider to be definitive proof. Of course, she's shown her "proof", but I still don't understand why she considers it proof.)
July 17, 2008 6:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Do you really need an answer to that question. Look at the name he selected for himself. Doesn't that answer your question.
On another note: you mentioned that you voted for President Bush twice because of how he expressed his religious beliefs. Do you still believe him on that score? I noticed that as soon as the Democrats won the 2006 elections President Bush dropped most, if not all of his religious remarks. I found it very revealing that he even distanced himself so far from his previous public faith proclamations that he did not even say "may God bless America" in his very next state of the Union address.
Do the research; and compare and contrast his religious comments from 2000 through October 2006, to the period after the 2006 election day, to the present. The difference is stunning. I think that he was always just using religion as a political weapon, and he was just expressing such faith beliefs to woe the Religious Right, in accordance with Karl Rove's campaign strategy.
How else can one explain his abandoning of almost all religious expression after the 2006 election defeat.
July 17, 2008 8:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree completely...I got sucked in...no defense of any kind...
July 17, 2008 9:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
stillidealistic: FYI, my nickname was spawned by my outrage over the Bush administration's handling of Katrina. Since little progress has been made for displaced Katrina victims 3 years on, I keep the name in their honor and as a reminder to myself.
July 18, 2008 10:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
I have no idea what you've said on other threads. I read this post by complete chance.
Your original post expressed almost ONLY concern. Do you know what a "concern troll" is? It's someone who comes onto a site to mess with the people there for kicks. So as you might be able to see from my itemized list to Ben above, your words fall into that category. Maybe you meant such a heavy emphasis, maybe you didn't. I can only go by the words that are there.
Because of its popularity, this site gets lots of trolls. In any event, arguing over issues doesn't mean people will in fact withhold their money or their vote. Sometimes people need to vent. You sound like you need to vent about Bush, right?
Your more "passionate" response makes you sound real rather than a drone. (Can you see that, knowing what a concern troll is?) For example, I appreciate that you like how Obama interacts with his family. I do too, and it's something no one ever comments on. But I am personally not pleased with his position on faith-based initiatives (I believe in strict church-state separation) or his recent comments about limiting abortions (I believe in choice), and I'm extremely unhappy with his position on the FISA Amendments (I believe in the Bill of Rights at all times, not just sometimes).
I also appreciate that you said you voted for Bush and why you did. If you've been a lifelong Republican, who was your favorite? Reagan? Can you compare Obama to your ideal Republican? Does he compare? I'm not baiting you, I'm much more curious about how you see him in that context.
July 17, 2008 6:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
No, I didn't know what a "concern troll" was until you told me...I'm not kidding, I'm 56, and I've NEVER blogged before this, and never even read one...My husband shoots me e-mails every day w/ suggested reading, and I just happened on this site and made a comment...Normally I just read all the political stuff I can find and keep my opinions to myself. I've just recently come to the conclusion that my demographics may be of some use to the campaign, and I'm looking for ways for my views (given who they are coming from) to be helpful. Seriously, if a staunch Republican w/ some degree of intelligence can be converted, why can't they all? Or at least a bunch of them?
I wasn't always a Republican. My parents were Kennedy Democrats. He was assassinated when I was a child, and it had a profound effect on me. When I was a young teenager, I remember going into L.A. to work for Bobby Kennedy's campaign. 18 year olds didn't get to vote until I was around 20 or so, and to be honest, I don't remeber who I first voted for, although if I took the time to figure out who was running, I would know....Somewhere along the line I started feeling like the Dems had become the party of the whackos and gimme gimmes and switched, and have never looked back. Until now, that is...
It may be the similarities w/ JFK that drew me into listening to Obama...
To be honest, the nomiker "stillidealistic" came about as I realized in listening to him, that the idealism I thought I had lost was still in there, fighting to get out, and here I am...
To be even more honest, I find most politicians to be "Republicrats"...Even those who start out idealistic end up being power hungry...no longer caring about the good of the country. Obama has somehow sent me back to a time when I believed there was hope for this country...I think that is what I like best about him...Reagan did that a bit, too, I guess, though not nearly to this degree.
My perfect President (regardless of party) would be one who kept us safe, helped the rest of the world discover how wonderful our freedoms are and kept them from killing off ANY segment of their populations (jews, kurds, tribes in Africa, you name it), had respect for the environment, left as many personal decisions as possible to the individual, rewarded good behavior (i.e. saving, hard work, keeping families together) made bad behavior painful (i.e. smoking, gas guzzling, consuming WAY more than our fair share of resources) and many, many more things that all sound a little Pollyanna-ish, I suppose...but you get my drift...
Anyway, I'm not naive enough to think I'll ever get all of what I want, but for now, Obama is as close as I can get...I'll work incrementally at getting more of what I want after we get him elected... :-)
July 17, 2008 7:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for hanging in there while I gave you a bumpy ride, stillidealistic. Your answers have been fascinating, and I welcome you sincerely to the site. I'm sorry it felt like hazing (the "hillbilly" is a red cape for me, fyi), but I can be quite friendly too. I believe all voices are necessary, so I hope you'll write on a regular basis.
cheers. :-)
July 17, 2008 8:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, thank you...I don't know why getting your acceptance was so important to me, but having done that, I feel like maybe I CAN win over some of my fellow Repubs....
July 17, 2008 8:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
Very nice. And yes, you can be very nice sometimes. (I like it better when you're a 'pill' short on your meds.)
Did I miss your comment on Billy's post?
July 17, 2008 9:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's interesting to see who gets through gasket's defenses and who doesn't... Seems like all it takes is a willingness to give an honest answer to a question and an ability to not overreact to gasket's initial brusqueness. Not much, really, but some people "get it" right away, and others never do....
July 18, 2008 3:14 AM | Reply | Permalink
I think the point you make about fiscal responsibility is a big one. The Republicans have completely taken that away as a selling point for them. They've been spending like money grows on trees and the worst part is that it can, in no way, be considered an investment.
I recall reading about a pretty big R from Texas stating that if the Repubs were going to spend like that, she might as well go check out the real thing. She's voting for Obama.
July 17, 2008 6:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
With such impassioned and eloquent proponents as you, stillidealistic, McCain really doesn't stand a chance!
I'm deeply moved by the story of your support for Obama, and it heartens me to think that so many other traditionally conservative voters could be seeing the situation in our country and this election from a similar perspective as yours. Thanks for sharing this with us!
July 17, 2008 6:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
First time at bat and knocked out of the park -- even got me making baseball metaphors (and I don't really even like baseball).
Nicely done, stillidealistic!
July 17, 2008 4:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
A former Republican, but not really, just a bush voter, but worked for Bobby Kennedy.
Fascinating character, fer sure.
July 17, 2008 9:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry...either you missed part of the bio or I didn't make it clear...fascinating character maybe, but worked for Kennedy at 16...voted Republican forever...am voting Dem for 1st time at 56...40 years of Republican creds...haven't been proud of it in the last 7/8 years
July 17, 2008 9:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
...and never blogged ever, ever, ever, before?
Never? Ever? Oh really?
Well, isn't that interesting. I remain skeptical.
July 18, 2008 8:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
What the hell?
July 18, 2008 9:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
I don't like head games. I don't like when others play head games with my fellow posters.
It adds nothing.
July 18, 2008 4:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ha! The bee has spoken. I always heed the bee's wisdom. ;-)
July 18, 2008 10:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
Just found this thread. Late to the party, as always, but good to see that "rett-ta-blowhard-mcgaskets" is still being... Well, you know.
I enjoyed the post. It is nice to press reset on the 24 hour, all outrage-all spin-all the time, scream and interrupt fest, and take a step back and a deep breath.
Heartily Rec'd and a hearty welcome!
July 18, 2008 11:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks! I feel like I "made my bones" w/ readytoblowagasket! So just let the workerbee thing go, do you think? I have this need to feel accepted...guess that comes from knowing that I am a social moderate and a fiscal conservative at heart, (or at least I thought I was. I'm beginning to question my beliefs. Have you seen the bumper sticker "don't believe everything you think"?) and so don't have the creds to be accepted. But I'm learning a lot from you guys and am enjoying the discussions all over the site, so is it okay if I stay?
July 18, 2008 12:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
It would be our pleasure if you stuck around and contributed to the mix. By the way, there is no "cred" to get here, just the willingness and ability to verbally spar, which you have proven quite able. I would love to be a fly on the wall when you have at your unconverted republican chums. I bet that is awesome sight to see!
July 18, 2008 3:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
Late to the party. Welcome. I don't understand readytoblowagasket and why RTBAG feels compelled to hector, lecture and doubt you. One might imagine that that could wait until you commented or posted more, but I guess not.
In any event, welcome.
July 18, 2008 1:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
Gotta say, I don't understand how suggesting that people unite around Obama can seem like Republican trolling.
I'm a lot more suspicious of the the people who loudly proclaim that they can't in good conscience vote for the man because of one issue or another.
July 18, 2008 1:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
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