« previous | TPM CAFÉ READER POSTS HOME | next »
If HILLARY'S Supporters Are So Loyal and Devoted to Her.....
Why does she not simply ask each of the 18 million+ supporters she can't shut her mouth about to each send her $1?
Easy to do - not a major impact on ones home budget - and she doesn't have to waste either Obama's or his supporters valuable time or resources.
And who knows - a few might be able to afford even $2 or $3??
Just a thought!
Advertisement



Comments (82)
You're being logical again. Stop it.
July 15, 2008 12:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
I obama's supporters are so enthusiastic about him why is he looking for Hillary's fund raisers to raise money for him?
I remember back when some of Hillary's big donors threatened the dnc that they would take their money and walk away. I remember people here saying the equivalent of don't let the door hit you on the way out. I remember posts asking for people to donate to the dnc to show that the democratic party didn't need them. How did that work out?
I just saw Ploff on the obama web site begging for money because the dnc is broke. Where are all those little donors?
The simple fact is Obama has just as many bundlers as Hillary. That's where the big money is in todays world of campaign reform. And his bundlers are tapped out. He wants Hillary's bundlers now. Politics has always been you scratch my back I'll scratch your's. Obama has always been the same old politics despite his rhetoric.
July 15, 2008 12:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Those same fundraisers you mention want Obama's help in retiring Clinton's massive debt (most of which was incurred after February, when she had no serious statistical chance to catch up in pledged delegates). So, they'd better break out the checkbooks.
Those same big donors tried to strong-arm Pelosi and the DCCC too. They deserved exactly what they got: nothing.
The little donors are giving to the Obama campaign. But they're not giving as much to the DNC, obviously. Of course, since they're a combined operation for the general, who really cares?
Obama wants Hillary's bundlers? No shit, Sherlock! And Hillary would want Obama's bundlers if she were the presumptive nominee. Stunning deduction!
If Obama's bundlers are tapped out (which they aren't, but you need to read up at fec.gov), it's because they've already hit up their networks for the max general-election donations. (We know this hasn't happened yet, but I digress.) Besides, we know Obama doesn't rely on bundling the same way the other candidates did/do. We know this from the average amount of his primary contribution, which was around $100.
Finally, the fact that you say Obama's always been the same old politics indicates you don't have the first clue what Obama's about. Read this, and do some research on your own. Maybe you'll understand more of who Obama is. It's not difficult, once you get past the various pro- and anti-Obama caricatures.
July 15, 2008 6:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
Read this and you link to a reader's blog on the tpm readers cafe? Too funny. Then you have the sense of humor to tell me I need to research. Satire right?
So sorry I don't have a link to any readers blog. While there's a well written, interesting post now and then, and the occasional insightful comment nothing written here has ever moved me to link. I don't even think my posts are worth that.
But hey, did you read the New Yorker article? Or did you just look at the pretty picture on the cover? Here's a little bit about Obama's "new politics." Strange though, sounds like the same old politics to me.
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/07/21/080721fa_fact_lizza?currentPage=10
One day in the spring of 2001, about a year after the loss to Rush, Obama walked into the Stratton Office Building, in Springfield, a shabby nineteen-fifties government workspace for state officials next to the regal state capitol. He went upstairs to a room that Democrats in Springfield called “the inner sanctum.” Only about ten Democratic staffers had access; entry required an elaborate ritual—fingerprint scanners and codes punched into a keypad.
Like every other Democratic legislator who entered the inner sanctum, Obama began working on his “ideal map.” Corrigan remembers two things about the district that he and Obama drew. First, it retained Obama’s Hyde Park base—he had managed to beat Rush in Hyde Park—then swooped upward along the lakefront and toward downtown. By the end of the final redistricting process, his new district bore little resemblance to his old one. Rather than jutting far to the west, like a long thin dagger, into a swath of poor black neighborhoods of bungalow homes, Obama’s map now shot north, encompassing about half of the Loop, whose southern portion was beginning to be transformed by developers like Tony Rezko, and stretched far up Michigan Avenue and into the Gold Coast, covering much of the city’s economic heart, its main retail thoroughfares, and its finest museums, parks, skyscrapers, and lakefront apartment buildings. African-Americans still were a majority, and the map contained some of the poorest sections of Chicago, but Obama’s new district was wealthier, whiter, more Jewish, less blue-collar, and better educated.
Now, lets talk about how politicians get money to run their campaigns. You say his average donation is 100 dollars. I can believe that. Lets say a bundler gets 21 people to donate the max, $4600 for the ge and the primary, and takes his 100 thousand dollar check and places it in Obama's hand. To get that 100 average it would take 2000 little donors giving $50 each. I'm sure you think obama is going to pay more attention to those 2000 little donors instead of the one who handed him a check for 100 thousand but I'm a bit more skeptical.
But, but, but, Obama has asked for his little supporters to be involved in contributing to making policy. Citizens committees. Sounds good. How did that work out in the past when he was in the Illinois senate?
===he announced that he was “organizing citizens’ committees” to help him shape legislation. He asked his constituents to call his office if they wanted to participate. That kind of airy talk about changing politics gave way almost immediately to the realities of the job. I asked a longtime Obama friend what ever became of the committees. “They never really got off the ground,”===
Funny how often people will buy the same story over and over again. But then, you don't seem too bright, this may be the first time you've heard the "new politics" line.
July 16, 2008 3:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
He has over 2 million individual donors, most who came via the website, contributing an average of $100 each. The amount raised and the number of contributors tells this tale.
Your scenario of a bunch of shady "bundlers" with $100K checks is simply not the reality of this election, at least not since very early in Obama's primary campaign.
Not sure why you are so hung up on tearing the man down, though.
July 16, 2008 10:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry, he has hundreds of bundlers. Some 150 of his bundlers raised over 200 thousand each.
http://answercenter.barackobama.com/cgi-bin/barackobama.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=130&p_created=1176309944&p_sid=7EUnxFQi&p_accessibility=0&p_redirect=&p_lva=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9zb3J0X2J5PSZwX2dyaWRzb3J0PSZwX3Jvd19jbnQ9MiwyJnBfcHJvZHM9JnBfY2F0cz0wJnBfcHY9JnBfY3Y9JnBfcGFnZT0xJnBfc2VhcmNoX3RleHQ9YnVuZGxlcg**&p_li=&p_topview=1
Raising from $50,000 to $100,000:
Wendy Abrams (Highland Park, IL)
Charles Adams (Geneva, Switzerland)
Lishan Aklog (Phoenix, AZ)
.
.
Steve Zager (Houston, TX)
Michael Zeldin (Washington, DC)
Raising between $100,000 and $200,000:
Jerry Acker (Southfield, MI)
David Adelman (Atlanta, GA)
.
.
Judy Wise (Chicago, IL)
Sheldon Zenner (Evanston, IL)
Raising over $200,000:
Naomi Aberly (Dallas, TX)
Mark Alderman (Bryn Mawr, PA)
.
.
Robert Wolf (New York, NY)
Kneeland Youngblood (Dallas, TX)
July 16, 2008 3:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Pretty selective excerpting of those listed on Obama's site as bundlers. Just what was your selection intended to prove?
July 16, 2008 10:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
Not too surprising that it would be nice to have the support of the whole Democratic party when fighting the repuggies. Still, considering that some of Hillary's supporters refuse to stand with Hillary in supporting Obama, he's not doing too bad is he? Up in the nationals, up in ten big swing states, competitive everywhere except a handful of the darkest red states--so far. But we're not giving up on them yet! But yeah, it would help if the rest of the democrats supported the party's candidate. It's democracy, remember? The party of Jefferson? We vote, therefore we are?
July 16, 2008 12:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
No surprise at all. Politics as usual. Let the uniting continue. Obama begs hillary's bundlers for cash and Hillary asks him to get his bundlers to help her pay down her debt. Its how the game is played.
I'm not a bit surprised at how good he is at it. Shifting positions has been a hallmark throughout Obama's career. From his changing position of gun control, he even lied about whether he filled out a position paper until a note in his hand writing was found on it. To his blatant flip flop to the right on FISA. He's even sucking up to the evangelicals on abortion. Hey did you read that he's "removed criticism of President Bush's increase of troops to Iraq from the campaign Web site?" Guess that surge was a good thing after all.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/07/15/obama-takes-surge-critici_n_112945.html
Who knows what he really believes the way his positions keep changing. What was that campaign slogan again? Oh yeah,
change we can believe in.
July 16, 2008 3:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
"Guess that surge was a good thing after all"
It's obvious that if you pave the streets with heavily-armed Americans, there will be fewer Iraqis willing to do bad things. Same-same in NYC, as Giuliani showed.
But the surge was supposed to give the Iraqis time ("months, not years" was the sound bite at the time) to get their political act together. They have not done so, and as the Iranian influence over Maliki grows, we cannot even get a SOFA from them, and they (it's their country, perhaps) are now asking us for a timetable for our withdrawal. There is no real political progress in Iraq.
The American idiots who believe the surge is working also believe that we should stay there until . . .? But as long as the Americans are calling the shots, no Iraqi political solution will be legitimate in the eyes of the Iraqis and the Iranians. Thus, the "surge" bullshit has morphed from a way to get us out to a way to tie us up there indefinitely. That's fine with the Republicans, I'm sure, and maybe even HRC. Permanent instability in the Middle East is a neocon article of faith.
Obama purged surge language from his website because you and the MSM have spawned the meme that given fewer American deaths (there's that self-centered view again), the surge is working when it really isn't, and he doesn't want to have to fight that battle at the low, merely semantic level you and they occupy. He is right that the surge is not accomplishing its stated, and highly touted, purpose.
When was the last time a military commander or a president was praised for his insight and savvy just for bringing reinforcements in to allow the eventual defeat to be put off indefinitely? I believe the relevant names are Westmoreland, Johnson, and mebbe Nixon.
July 16, 2008 11:22 AM | Reply | Permalink
Query (only partly rhetorical) - Why was Obama more successful than HRC at obtaining small, but consistent, contributions from his supporters?
Anyone?
July 15, 2008 12:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Aunt:
Just a guess here - more people were willing to invest their hard-earned money in Obama than in Hillary?
As the first poster said - stop being rational!!!! :) :)
Oh - and a secondary point. The Clintons are collectively worth over $100 million. Why doesn't she pay her own damned debt? If SHE isn;t proud and confident enough in her OWN abilities, why should the res tof us foot a bill for someone who can cover it 5 times over?
WHY is there all this teeth-gnashing and hand-wringing over someone who does NOT need the money?
July 15, 2008 1:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
You ask why Hillary has not paid her own debt? Why her small vendors remain unpaid? Why her diehard supporters have not bailed her out?
It's all a matter of precedent for this pair of legal eagles and their flock is simply learning how to fly their way.
Has it escaped your notice that the Clintons are reasonably addicted to risk? And to being in control, in particular by defining terms? That one definition of winning for them, which they've already established as a precedent, is to walk away, scot free, from the consequences of their own actions? (I include Hillary in this reference to precedent, not because she personally escaped impeachment, but rather because she aided and abetted Bill in his escape.)
So, when you've evaded the consequences of impeachment, it must seem only logical, and absolutely no challenge, to walk away from the debt of a few million dollars, and the receivables of a bunch of Mom and Pop stores.
Hardly even any sport in it, when you've "walked/won" at such significantly higher risk.
July 15, 2008 1:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
wwstaebler is still talking about impeachment!
Did anyone notice that there was peace and prosperity for the United States during the Clinton presidency? Since then, the faithful husband George Bush has plunged us into an illegal war and placed us on the brink of economic catastrophe. Some people are grown up enough never to have cared what Bill Clinton did with his genitals. Some people, on the other hand, subscribe to the infantile Republican equation of consensual sexual activity with life and death matters of state.
The Constitution has one standard for impeachment: Treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors. "High crime" means a crime against the republic-- not oral sex or lying about oral sex or giving misleading testimony about oral sex in a civil lawsuit.
But I thank wwstaebler for providing me with something to laugh about.
July 15, 2008 7:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
Interesting assumption. Who's talking about sex? Why you are. Not my business. I'm referring to lying under oath and therefore, obstruction of justice = impeachable. I didn't make this up. It actually happened as a matter of cause and effect.
July 15, 2008 8:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
I didn't know you were one of the haters ww. Fool me once. . .
July 15, 2008 8:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh, Bslev -- how am I not communicating so that it is clear: I do not hate Hillary. Repeat. I do not hate Hillary. But I do hold her responsible for putting small business people at risk vis a vis their suppliers and their credit.
It seems to me that there is no excuse for that.
Are you responsible for your debts? Of course you are. Am I responsible for mine? Of course I am.
Why, then, is there a different standard for someone who could write the checks today that would relieve "those hardworking American people" she claimed to champion?
Do you not hear the distress I feel about this? Distress is not the same as hate, believe me.
July 15, 2008 8:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obstruction of justice does not flow automatically from lying under oath. Otherwise anyone who lied about what speed they were going when they got a ticket could be sent to jail for years. You see, the law depends on human beings drawing rational distinctions. The distinction between, for example, offering deceptive testimony in a civil suit about one's consensual sexual behavior and committing a high crime-- that is, a crime against the Republic. Judges make those distinctions every day.The Senate drew that distinction when they acquitted President Clinton. That means they determined that the accusation-- the bill of impeachment-- either was not proven or did not rise to the level of a HIGH CRIME, which is, I repeat, a crime against the Republic.
Scandals are common but impeachments have been rare, precisely because every other generation knew the difference between high crimes against the republic, and the petty deceptions perpetrated by human beings in the pursuit of sex. So go on pretending the republic was at risk because a man gave misleading testimony about consensual sex in a civil law suit. Newt Gingrich, Tom Delay, Rush Limbaugh, and Phyllis Shlaffly-- those moral giants and noted constitutional scholars--are all cheering you on.
July 15, 2008 8:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
Actually, it is my understanding that Bill Clinton was dis-barred for lying under oath, which constituted obstruction of justice. The standards, as I understand it, are higher for an elected official than they are for you, or for me.
In any case, at least two lawyers on TPM say that you are wrong.
But I am not a lawyer, and must defer to those who are on the definition of obstruction of justice as it pertains to the president or other significant elected officials.
If you are a lawyer, please cite the chapter and verse that proves me wrong. Because just as I made an assertion without the footnote to back it up, so did you. Settling that issue would be helpful. Thank you.
July 15, 2008 9:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
He was convicted of obstruction of justice or perjury. Bill Clinton accepted a plea deal rather than let the case continue. His perjury defense would have been legalistic and technical as he did not (if the Starr Report is to believed) have "sexual intercourse" with Monica Lewinsky. Rather than let the case drag on, he submitted to a suspension of his Arkansas law license for 5 years.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10904831/
You may also want to consider that lawyers have a professional obligation not to mislead the court which is a much lower standard than perjury. While his testimony may have been technically accurate, it was misleading. That's why he was suspended bby the Supreme Court Bar and resigned rather than face disbarment.
I don't know how this is so important and relevant to the issue of resolving Hillary's campaign debt, but thought you might want to be better informed on the actual facts at hand.
July 15, 2008 9:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
That first sentence should be he was NOT convicted...
July 15, 2008 9:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Doesn't matter, he's lynched by a mob of his progressive peers every day. As the saying goes, with friends like these, who needs Republicans?
July 16, 2008 7:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
I will not jump through hoops for you. You have already determined that what Clinton did was a high crime. I have already stated my reasons why it was not. On your side stand all the monsters of the Republican Party. On my side stands the United States Senate, the only court competent to judge an impeachment case. They had the last word on the matter and it was NOT GUILTY.
July 15, 2008 10:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
My comment above was directed to wwstaebler.
July 15, 2008 10:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Peace = David Koresh and Waco, Ruby Ridge, Oklahoma City, Atlanta gay nightclub, Atlanta abortion clinic, Birmingham abortion clinic, USS Cole, Battle of Mogadishu, Rwandan genocide, World Trade Center (1993)...
Prosperity = Dotcom Bust 2000, 2000 recession, welfare reform, minimum wage frozen at $5.15 per hour...
Yep, the good ole days...
July 15, 2008 10:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
Peace=No illegal war.
Prosperity=Prosperity.
Yep, those were the good old days.
July 15, 2008 10:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
This litte sub-discussion has got me wondering who the Bill Clinton haters on this site are going to vote for once they figure out that Obama admires him and wants his input:
Obama on Larry King Live last night,
ww, I'm sure you have a rationalization about that to explain why, something about him pandering to Clinton supporters, I'm sure. My advice: keep it to yourself, as it can be googled up when you're proven wrong and it turns out that Obama is being honest about stuff like this. He keeps telling everyone: I'm being honest about my beliefs so far, I'm not pandering, but so many supporters seem to want to believe he's lying about so many things, actually quite hilarious to see this happen after the whole true believer start to his campaign.
July 16, 2008 4:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
They could pay off the little guys and stiff Mark Penn. That only seems fair since he screwed them.
July 16, 2008 12:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
Sounds like a plan to me.
July 16, 2008 12:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
Go back and look at the history of campaign debt, that she is trying to get her debt paid completely should be seen as a bonus, not a problem. John Glenn still hasn't paid his campaign debts since 1984. Jesse Jackson, Gary Hart, Giuliani, Dodd, Richardson, Pat Robertson - all owe debt. Hillary paid Vilsack's debt. Carol Mosely Braun owes. Kucinich ran again even though he owes half a million from last time. Romney owes 44 million for Pete's sake.
of clinton's 20 million debt, half is to herself and she is forgiving that - as she should. 4.5 million is to Mark Penn....one of those small vendors everyone is worrying about I suppose. The other thing is, Clinton has some general election money that she can ask her donors to permit her to give to her senate campaign (after the convention) and then she can pay the debts from that, but she cannot use the general election donations to directly pay the primary election debts.
So, you see, all this fuss about Clinton's debt when the history of political campaigns is awash with unpaid debts stinks to me of a double standard - the same double standard applied over and over and over again to Clinton.
July 16, 2008 7:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
Can we stop attacking Hillary yet? What brought on this desire to talk about her campaign debt? I see no point in this post other than to sow discord in the Democratic party.
July 15, 2008 2:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
No, it will never stop. For too many of the people here, without Clinton hatred, they have no motivation. Their Obama supports rests on the simple fact that Obama is not Clinton. It will never stop because nothing is more exciting and interesting than hatred - despite all the claims to the contrary. That's why the anti-Clinton posts are always among the longest and most recommended, because it's not the politics, it's not ideology, it's an obsession with hating the Clintons.
July 15, 2008 2:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
You are mistaken. This post is gatering few recomends.
July 15, 2008 4:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, Larry. After reading OregonActivist's and your post, I certainly made sure to add my rec to the list.
July 15, 2008 5:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Why? What purpose does it serve? What meaningful conversation is there to be had about it? I just don't get it…
I am, and always have been, an Obama supporter. I might have even said a couple of nasty things about Clinton during the primaries. But now? It seems like an ill-founded idea to bring up bad things about her now. I could understand it if this were actually new and/or interesting, after all we like to have discussions here, and serving the Democratic party's interests aren't all that we're about. But this exact idea has been posted before, more than once, and it wasn't that interesting the first time. (Sorry, GayIthacan. You seem like a nice person, but I really don't understand the point of this post.)
July 15, 2008 5:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
We can stop talking about Hillary when she stops poor-mouthing and diverting attention and energy from the Presidential camapign. I have said for months that if she has so many devoted supporters, retiring her campaign debt should be simple (not to mention the fact of the Clintons' personal fortune). She is attempting to do to Obama what she did to Gore in 2000: divert away attention and resources. To hell with her.
July 15, 2008 5:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oregon Activist: I have such respect for you; yet, in my opinion, you have a blind spot about Hillary. I don't hate Hillary. In fact, I admire and, in the past, empathized with her. The problem I have with her now is that she is screwing her small vendors when she, and her loyalists, have the means to pay them, now. For that action, of ignoring Mom and Pop receivables, I find fault with her. Yes, without any apology.
Imagine, for the sake of discussion, that you, or your mother, had a party store. And the Clinton campaign gave you what you thought was the promotional opportunity of a lifetime. And so you anted up $9-10 thousand dollars to buy balloons and streamers, confident that you would be paid promptly, and not be out of pocket.
Imagine your dismay, or that of your mother/whomever, when your bills are due to the wholesaler, but Hillary's campaign fails to pay.... in May, and in June, and so far in July. And your small business credit depends on prompt payment of your bills to your suppliers.
Why is this hard to understand as an subject of legitimate criticism? Hillary has the money to pay these people, today, tomorrow, yesterday. And yet she does not. And there are small businesses that can lose their supplier relationships over this, as their credit can be affected.
Please. Tell me how this can be construed as this amorphous, imaginary Hillary Hate, instead of concern for people who are struggling, and do not deserve this.
Please answer that question. I do respect you, and think you have valuable insight, on all things but Hillary.
By the way, there was a really interesting post yesterday titled something like: Elizabeth2 On the Way to Enlightenment, or something like that. Did you read it? I thought it really helpful in trying to consider the ways in which people with diametrically opposed attitudes might begin to have a respectful discussion.
Understand my point: I am respectful of you. I am not respectful of a multi-millionaire who says she is all about "the hardworking American people" and then screws them, herself.
July 15, 2008 8:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
You don't have a clue who hasn't been paid.
This is an amorphous smear that you don't need facts on. You just rely on
"Hillary has debts = Hillary is screwing someone"
Perfectly Rovian tactics. I've addressed this in previous posts. She spent a quarter of a billion dollars, making a lot of people a lot of money. She loaned her campaign half the debt, meaning more people got paid, and now there's 5% remaining, or was about a month ago, likely down now with more fund raising. Vendors are getting paid, only people like you are complaining.
July 16, 2008 7:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
Why criticize someone for their actions or positions when you can just imagine their faults.
Imagine, for the sake of discussion, that Obama really is a secret Muslim beholden to Osama bin Laden. Then imagine, Michelle really is a gun-toting latter day Angela Davis.
July 16, 2008 9:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
Having worked on campaigns and paid the bills for campaigns, I know what gets paid first and what gets paid last. First are the media because they insist on cash in advance, then mom and pops because of the ill will created in communities if word gets out - down to the last which are the campaign employees, consultants and bills from universities, city governments and other event venues who might complain but whose complaints have a hollow sound when they complain about a 30,000 bill for a 1 hour event in a stadium that they rent for 4,000 to anyone but a candidate.
July 16, 2008 7:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ben, you ask what brought on these new attacks against Clinton. Could it possibly be the attack-post that we are responding to? I agree it makes no sense to continue the primary flame wars; but, it also makes no sense to allow unjustified smears on our nominee to go unanswered. Swift-boating (by anyone) should not be tolerated- period. IMO, it's like our silence, in essence, would show agreement. If we won't defend our nominee, who will?
July 15, 2008 7:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
This is not defending our nominee. It's harming him.
July 15, 2008 8:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Demographics might be at play here. Senator Clinton did receive a large share of her support from women over sixty, many of them working class. Fund raising, the small donations way, is best suited to the internet, and I would not be surprised if a large percentage of Hillary's supporters are not even online.
July 15, 2008 5:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's a gentle thought, Liam and, for the women over sixty, who have limited means, and are not online, what you suggest may have real validity, But then there are the ardent supporters like Judith Iscol, who is 60+, who happens to have a gazillion dollars, and what was she talking about for twenty minutes on MSNBC yesterday? Certainly not the little people who may be genuinely harmed if their bills are not paid. No, on the contrary, Ms. Iscol was beating the Vice Presidential drum, ardently, passionately.
How does this represent those hardworking American people? (?)
July 15, 2008 8:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
But the question was why don't the 18 million send in a dollar two. That is what I was addressing. You are conflating a few vocal fatcats, who probably have already maxed out, with the large number of people that I was drawing attention to.
July 15, 2008 8:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
That is a fair point, which I misunderstood. You're quite right. Each of those women could send in a dollar or two.
But should the small vendors have to wait until they do?
July 15, 2008 8:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
I wouldn't mind sending a few bucks if it could be routed to the small businesses. It might not be a bad idea for Senator Clinton to set up such an option on her website. I suggested it, back some time ago, but got blasted by a Hillary supporter for wanting to snoop into her business. I just thought that a lot more people might be willing to help if they could direct their donations to specific debt areas, and not have it going to Mark Penn.
I did not consider it as snooping since all of those vendor debts are going to show up on public records anyway.
July 15, 2008 9:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
She has probably given her 2500 limit and cannot give more -- not even to pay the debt after the candidate has conceded.
July 16, 2008 7:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
"When Affirmative Action Was White" is the work of a moron with an advanced degree; the very title gives it away.
July 15, 2008 5:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
My reference to When Affirmative Action was White was on another thread. Your reply makes you sound like an anti-intellectual Bushie. Your remark "the title gives it away" reveals you have not read it, nor did you read the review so you don't know what they book is about. That you are so over-the-top defensive about the book title makes you sound like you deny racism exists.
so, I looked at your profile and saw that basically you browse around posting insults. In the future, at least put your insults in the correct thread.
July 15, 2008 6:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
Blame the eccentricities of this site, not me. I have read the book repeatedly; I syand by statement. And I insult only those who deserve it. I have added to my list.
July 15, 2008 9:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
Funny, I don't believe you. But why not prove it, tell me what of its central arguments is moronic. Please be specific.
July 16, 2008 6:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
This is another one of those caustic, hurtful posts, one that is inconsistent with a very important lesson that I taught my three voting age children (all enthusiastic, loyal Obama supporters who would never stoop to this kind of drivel). I told them long ago, and they've lived by this plain and simple truth, that the only thing worse than a sore loser is a sore winner.
I haven't bothered to read the whole thread, so forgive me if I repeat what others have said. First, don't help Hillary if you choose not to; even without Obama's help, her debt will be paid off. Second, I always thought that it bordered on the ridiculous to read the posts and comments of those who didn't think much of those "big Hillary" donors. Now, it turns out, Senator Obama is sucking up to these folks beyond description. Can you believe it?
Having said all of that, I have pledged to support Senator Obama, because I'm a real Democrat, and I will be participating in the TPM Obama fundraiser in Brooklyn on July 19th, despite what jerks like this poster write.
The poster is an ass, and worse yet, the poster is a sore winner, which in my book is lower on the totem pole than a catfish.
July 15, 2008 8:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Bslev: You are a person I respect. Please respect me and read the whole thread. Thank you.
July 15, 2008 8:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
No thanks. I read your posts and I was surprised and disappointed. Worry not, you have many like-minded thinkers. This post is heinous.
July 15, 2008 8:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's okay, Bslev, it's not heinous, it's common sense. If Obama is so popular, he can ask his 18 million voters to pony up another $30 each - only 5 lattes or so - to get over $500 million more. That should see him through. Not sure why he needs Hillary out there twisting arms for him at this point.
July 16, 2008 7:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
Okay, I just put down $100 more for Hillary, and marked it for the Mark Penn account. He did an excellent job, the problems were elsewhere, just like these small vendor smears.
I note Penn's comment about his North Carolina and Indiana polls, when those smoking who-knows-what were thinking Hillary had a chance in NC. She got trounced but was sitting in NC to give her speech just in case. Better to spend that last day in Indiana where she needed a better win than 2 points. That's not to say Penn and of course Hillary didn't make other mistakes. But when you buy your campaign talking points from Drudge, you get a sickly harlequin potboiler hardly worth reading.
July 16, 2008 8:41 AM | Reply | Permalink
Des:
The folks who endorse this stuff have nary a clue. The irony is that just this morning I received an e-mail for an Obama event at the NY office of one of the nations largest corporate/DC lobbying firms with a minimum cover of $1000 (and $500 for young lawyers which I am not! lol). I applaud the folks actually doing work for the Senator, but it is kind of ironic when juxtaposed with this horse poop, wouldn't you say? I guess I shouldn't get mad at folks who have no idea how things work in the real world. Ciao.
Bruce
July 16, 2008 9:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
Reality mugged by a fund-raising letter? ;-)
July 16, 2008 11:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
P.S.: Rec'd!
July 15, 2008 10:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Actually:
I bring this up now because there are rumblings from Hillaryland concerning both the convention AND public declarations by three of her most 'ardent' supporters concerning her 'right' to have her debt paid off by 3rd parties (instead of from her own funds).
The situation is obscene. It would rank with Bill Gates asking a restaurant to comp his entire meal because the Baked Alaska was slightly subpar - claiming that it would be a financial hardship for him to have to pay for something that wasn't quite on a par with the Baked Alaska at a neighboring table.
The Clintons can afford to absorb this ;financial loss; - 5 times over. To have either them or their surrogates even THINKING of asking others to foot her bill is morally obscene. And to use it as a cudgel against the winning nominee of the political party they profess to love is beyond morally obscene.
July 15, 2008 10:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama neither asked his small donors to help nor did he hand over his own money or money he had already raised.
He's also not doing this out of the goodness of his heart. He can quite obvious benefit from Clinton's donors who cannot legally give her anymore money.
This is purely business on his end...it's silly to get upset over it.
July 16, 2008 9:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
I hate to be the one to call your attention to this, but we have real issues to worry about in this election and for Hillary's remaining campaign debt to be generating such copious amounts of OUTRAGE from Obama supporters is unfuckingbelieveable.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/16/us/politics/16poll.html?hp
As bslev noted, both he and I will be attending the Obama fundraiser in Brooklyn and I am looking forward to meeting many, many Obama and Hillary supporters who share a common goal of putting a democrat in the White House and moving forward in party unity. But every time I see a post like this it makes me regret splitting my contributions between Hillary and Obama since the end of her campaign.
As Ben noted, what point does this post serve other than to get folks angry and cause more division? If that's what you want have at it, but don't try to justify this post by saying it's "defending" Obama or helping him because it is doing the precise opposite.
Get a clue and move on. If you don't want to contribute to resolve Hillary's remaining campaign debt then don't. Why waste time creating additional divisions between HRC and Obama supporters?
Can we focus on McCain now? Thanks.
July 16, 2008 9:28 AM | Reply | Permalink
dijamo:
You rock. Looking forward to meeting you and the other folks keeping it real in Brooklyn on Saturday night. The rest of the hypocrites who endorse this drivel can fester in their own Tower of Babel.
Bruce
July 16, 2008 9:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
I got love from bslev even though I have a 2 eyed avatar. It's a good day :)
July 16, 2008 11:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
Dijamo:
I hate to call your attention to this - but any and all monies donated to Hillary to 'pay her debt" (ignoring the fact that she and Billy retain an estimated $80 million fortune PLUS their cash-raising speech circuit abilities from now until Armageddon) are monies that could be better spent on, as you say, Obama's upcoming struggle to defeat John McCain.
But - as we are seeing this week - there remain a core of HillBillies who seem unable to accept reality for what it is - and are publicly both withholding their support (even though, true to their Trilby/Mesmer roots, they continue to blindly carry on a fight already lost - despite the supposed 'backing' that Hillary is now encouraging for Obama)) as well as voicing their 'demands' (an odd thing for losers to do) that they expect Obama to meet before they agree to jump on the bandwagon.
Sorry, my dear. If this is 'support' and 'fence-mending', then it is no mystery to me that Democrats have, in recent history, had so much trouble winning the White House.
If McCain is to be defeated in November (and if you think that isn;t going to be a VERY difficult task, you live in a dream world), then it is time for these background machinations and behind-the-scenes schemes and tantrums to end - and for HillBilly to FORCEFULLY AND UNWAVERINGLY demand that her backers get off both their asses and their high horses (an odd place for the losers to claim to be), get behind the party's nominee, and open their goddamn checkbooks. And if not to support Obama, then to pay off Hillary's self-imposed 'debt' and get her to shut her greedy, whiny mouth. And that includes her entire '18-million' strong cadre of ;supporters' who now, suddenly, seem unable to write a check - even for $1!!
July 16, 2008 10:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
If you don't want to contribute THEN DON'T. Some Obama supporters already have maxed out to Obama so him encouraging them to give to Hillary does not reduce their ability to contribute to Obama and helps us put the primary season behind us where I'd like it to be. Hillary put 12 million into this campaign of HER own money. Obama's campaign made a big deal of wanting to see the tax returns so they could know it came from Hillary and not Bill. So their net worth and his earnings capabilities is irrelevant to the issue at hand.
There are always the fringe dead-ender Deaniacs or PUMAs or whatever. You want to focus on those folks and keep berating Hillary who has done everything asked of her by Obama to encourage his fundraising and unity events. That may turn more Hillary supporters into dead-enders. Counter-productive. Freaking illogical. Self--destructive. You want to keep fighting the last fight because it feels good to bash Hillary instead of looking forward to McCain. It is not helpful in the least.
But truth is me as a Hillary supporter will never get through to you. I give Ben credit for trying. I give liam credit for not fanning the flames unnecessarily in this thread. I KNOW that McCain is a tough fight and that's why every vote is important. Stop alienating the Hillary folks and focus on the general election.
July 16, 2008 10:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
I have come to respect liam as well, even though I used to detest him or her. Liam is a true Democrat, a true liberal, and an example to the other faux outraged. Hats off to liam, and to folks like Ben who I don't know as well.
July 16, 2008 11:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
Great points.
It also underscores what John McFadden wrote a couple days ago about what each of us see as we discuss these issues. He was speaking more in terms of conservatives versus liberals, but it seems apt in this case as well.
I read this and felt it was kind of snarky and cheeky, but hardly showed outrage or hate or anything else. More of a quizzical bemusement. Yet, all of the comments from Hillary's supporters took it as insulting, demeaning and down-right combative. Same words, different lens, opposite meaning.
I am starting to see our divergent paths coming together up ahead if we keep going this direction. Thanks for continuing down that path even as I walk down mine. More threads like this and we all just may reach the enlightenment John spoke of.
July 16, 2008 11:48 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks Jason - I noticed that thread as well. I'm hopeful we can get closer to being able to talk to each other as opposed to past or at each other.
And after reviewing my responses, I noticed many, many typos. Thanks for seeing through them and please don't report me to Worst Spelling Ever.
TPM - preview feature/spell check please! :o)
July 16, 2008 2:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
I never heard of someone asking others to support their candidate while simultaneously insulting them with eptithets such as "Hillbillies."
It is not only rude, it is anti-progressive. It reveals a class-based disdain for millions of people who happen to be poor.
July 16, 2008 11:03 AM | Reply | Permalink
I am weeping for you.
July 16, 2008 11:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
Callous hatred, the new progressivism. Or is it the same old equating of peasants to potatoes in a sack?
July 16, 2008 1:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
While you may despise the fact that some on the "losing side" are on the high horse, so are most Obama supporters. If you want to stay down in the mud with the PUMAs and the anti-unity Obama supporters and argue over garbage like this, it's your right. But those on the high horse are actively working on Obama's behalf versus the mudslingers that are unknowingly (or even worse knowingly) harming Obama's chances.
And I don't mind being called my dear, except when it is done in a very patronizing tone. I effing hate that.
July 16, 2008 11:38 AM | Reply | Permalink
Obama is in deep shit: His supporters are talking about Hillary again. Something's terribly wrong.
July 16, 2008 10:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
readytoblowgasket:
Obama would only be in deep shit if folks like the person you are responding to was relevant. They are only relevant to the extent that they irritate people like me. It is a sad thing that people whose candidate has won are stuck in needling loyal supporters of the defeated candiate, while at the same time the candidate whom they allegedly support makes no secret that he needs the supporters of his vanquished foe to win. These are the truly irrelevant, much like a mosquito--it carries a stinger but it has nothing to do with the election.
July 16, 2008 11:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
Hey, Bruce (and dijamo): Let me know if/when the next BKLYN fundraiser is; I'd love to meet you (both) sometime. Have fun. ;-)
You're right about GayIthacan and others; it is mosquito season, after all. :-)
It's just that I've noticed an uptick in the number of Hillary-bashing posts recently, and it makes me curious. My theory is that Obama supporters are getting the jitters, and in their nervousness they are returning to the familiarity of old bad habits (I wonder if Genghis is still cig-free, btw). Of course it takes the cast-iron teeth-gritting strength of Clinton supporters to hold the party together, toss a few of the faint-hearted on our backs, and forge ahead to November.
July 16, 2008 11:41 AM | Reply | Permalink
ready:
Actually, his poll numbers have been going UP in nearly every recent national poll - and in every major swing state as well.
The only 'talk' about Hillary has been that she is on the short list and that her husband is a major pain-in-the-ass and the largest roadblock to her chances for the second spot.
July 16, 2008 10:55 AM | Reply | Permalink