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How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Love The TPM Trolls

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I'd like to start by apologizing to any GOP or PUMA trolls on this site.  I've derided you, mocked you, and used you for pimp-hand exercise.  But it was only because I didn't truly appreciate how valuable and essential you are to our community.  Your true contribution to our dialogue was a epiphany I had less than 24 hours ago.

Last night, out of the blue, I got a call from an old college friend who's a post-doctoral mathematics student at the University of Missouri.  I haven't spoken to him in years, but we've kept in touch enough to have one another's contact information.

Politically, we're opposites, even going back to our time at the University of Illinois, when he was a Young Republican and I was a Young Democrat.  Despite those differences, though, we've always liked and respected one another.

So, after catching up on each other's families, the conversation turned to Nouri al-Maliki's Der Spiegel interview over the weekend. 

My buddy started ragging on the "liberal media" who "misreported" Maliki's comments.  I laughed and told him he was in denial, which is at the very beginning of the 12-step process. 

Then, he started citing sources like CNN and Mark Halperin as "proof" that Maliki was actually supporting George Bush and John McCain's Iraq position.  So, I challenged him to hop on his computer and take a little Internet stroll with me.

While I narrated, I sent him to the original Der Spiegel intervew.  I then sent him to Der Spiegel's full interview transcript, where I showed him that Maliki mentioned approval of Obama's timetable proposal THREE separate times - and that Maliki brought up Obama entirely on his own.  

Then, it was on to the New York Times piece today that points out that the translator for the interview works for Maliki.  Then, we surfed by Jonathan Chait at The New Republic, who took Halperin to task for his credulity in buying the CENTCOM-sponsored "walkback".  Finally, we paid an e-visit to Matthew Yglesias at The Atlantic, who convincingly demonstrated that the al-Dabbaigh "clarification" was hogwash, as it didn't retract a single part of Maliki's endorsement of a withdrawal timetable.

We went through this exercise for about 20 minutes.  When we finished, my friend paused for about 20 seconds and said, "So, if all this is true...we're basically screwed, then."  

As I lay in bed a few hours later, it occurred to me how easy it had been to find and organize a rather convincing argument against GOP propaganda.  Then, I started laughing, because I realized why it had been so easy. 

I've spent a lot of time in the last year or so hammering away at various troll-types on this and other sites.  First, it was the Clintonistas (as opposed to the level-headed, rational Clinton supporters).  Then, it was the PUMAs (which is just the extreme hardline Clintonistas, reorganized).  Now, it's the GOPer trolls like Andrew Perez and theCleverBulldog.

To argue effectively against these people, you have to figure out what they're twisting in, omitting from, or adding to their various sources.  If they're quoting poll numbers, you have to review the original poll to see if their conclusions hold water.  If they're citing "reputable" online sources, you have to dig into those links.  In other words, you have to do in-depth research, and then present a logical rebuttal in stark, unforgiving fashion so as to render further attempts at spin futile.

What I discovered last night was that I've reached the point where I can present extemporaneous rebuttals in convincing fashion, using nothing but the truth and basic logic.

I've had experience in forensics before, thanks to Toastmasters debate competitions.  However, I wouldn't have been able to assemble, break down and organize my rebuttal data on the fly like I did last night if I hadn't gained that experience in battling troll infestations here and elsewhere.

The value of that skill is that I am much more effective at talking to people about Obama, because I can form my flow of thought as I'm talking.  I don't have to prepare cue cards or outlines anymore.  And there is hardly a better way to get votes for my candidate than being able to present his positions and the reasons why they're superior off the cuff, with various honest, unvarnished sources for people to check out on their own.

So, to all you trolls out there...thank you, thank you, thank you for your help.  In your own way, you're contributing to an Obama victory in November. 

And for those TPMers who hate trolls - don't hate them.  Use them.  Use them to get ready for the ground game, when you have to convince otherwise reasonable and normal people that those same troll-dropping arguments are false.  Turn their illogic and vitriol against them, and against John McCain.  After all, trolls like the dark...and as Benjamin Cardozo said, "Sunlight is the best disinfectant."


Comments (48)

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Thanks for the very thoughtful post. It is interesting to observe how alike the arguments of the trolls are. Probably because Rush can only tell them what to think once a day.

Rec'd

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Are Green Party supporters trolls, too?

Trolls are green, aren't they? ;)

Am I right in assuming that you don't consider your misinformed friend a troll? If so, then why do you consider Andrew Perez and theCleverBulldog trolls? Isn't it possible that they're posting what they think is true?

Being wrong doesn't make them trolls. Just my 2 cents. Otherwise, you're absolutely correct. Debating those people here makes it easier for us to debate their analogues off-line.

Isn't it possible that they're posting what they think is true?

Uhh, no. They already know the truth. They just don't like it.

I think you're underestimating the ability to deceive one's self. I don't know about Perez, but I'm pretty sure that theCleverBulldog at least believes most of what he writes. (And I don't know if anyone here has argued more with him than I have.)

That's probably true of the worst. I'd say more folk have an emotional truth, a series of prejudices (truthiness?), that conflicts with the facts they are getting. Rather than adjust their beliefs, they turn to whatever source provides them with more reassuring information. Then they post it here like some sort of revelation.

Being wrong doesn't make them trolls.

True enough, and thanks for saying it! We've gotten to the point where anyone who doesn't agree with the TPM status quo (itself suspect on more than one occasion) is considered a troll.

Debating those people here makes it easier for us to debate their analogues off-line.

Indeed. I regularly watch FNC and listen to AM Talk Radio for just that reason. It sharpens you. As Churchill once opined, if you can only afford to read one newspaper, pick the one that has the opposite point of view.

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Hey, I like dropping the troll bomb on people as much as anyone and it's nice to call out someone who is obviously trolling.

However, there is a fine line between pointing out a true troll and just being plain arrogant. For as many real trolls on these boards there are plenty of uppity "regulars" who finger people as trolls simply because they dare to post an unpopular opinion.

Too often people are called trolls simply to try to discredit their opinion. It's a silly way to try to win an argument.

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You are correct to a degree. However, here is the common situation:

1) Person self-identifies as Democrat

2) Person indicates opposition to Obama

3) Person says that they have never voted in 40 years for a Republican, but they will vote for McCain.

Well, at that point, my TROLL-DAR fires off. Any person who is a faithful democrat for 40 years simply could not vote for McCain. It's simply not possible. They must be a troll.

1) Neither Andrew Perez nor theCleverBulldog have identified themselves as a Democrat. Perez calls himself an independent whereas theCleverBulldog is quite clear that he's a Republican.

2) I don't know about Perez, but you'd expect a Republican to oppose Obama.

3) AFAIK, neither person has said "they have never voted in 40 years for a Republican".

I'm more or less with you in your definition, which is why I'm saying it doesn't apply here.

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I openly admit than in my entire lifetime I have voted for exactly 1 democrat, because the republican opponent was simply an idiot that I couldn't support. I don't try to pretend to be anything other than what I am, a libertarian leaning republican. I oppose Obama because I believe he will seriously damage this country. His beliefs are just reruns of failed ideas from the 70's: higher taxes, windfall profits taxes, more spending, more socialism. If McCain is a third Bush term, Obama is a second Jimmy Carter term, and the country barely survived the first one.

No president is free of the situation he inherits. Our country follows the middle way by ocilating accross it. It would be imposible for any politicain elected this year to be a second Carter. Carter came at the tail end of a liberal swing of the pendulum. We are now at the end of a conservative swing. We are just begining the correction to the center.

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Over the last 28 years, we have learned two things:

1) Everything that Reagan and other repukeliscum morons said is wrong. Reagan said we did not need high CAFE standards, and now the Japs are destroying our car industry. He took out the solar panels, and now solar is what we need. Conservatism has demonstrated that it is intellectually bankrupt and just a con game to steal all of the money from our grandchildren.

2) Everything that Carter said was right. He opposed the Soviets in Afghanistan, and did a great job. Reagan gave missiles to our enemies in Iran, and created the terrible state there. Then Reagan and Rumsfeld gave poison gas to Saddam and he used it to kill the Kurds. Reagan was wrong about everything and Carter was right about everything.

But you, being a conservaturd, are too stupid to admit the truth. 30 years after Carter/Reagan, the path to Reagan has been a disaster, and the path away from Carter's ideas has taken us the wrong direction.

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I see a troll as being anyone:
(1) who posts dishonest arguments, with either no facts or made-up "facts" to support them;
(2) who posts little more than ad hominem attacks against their target (usually Obama, on this site).

The two posters mentioned fit the above scenario perfectly. Calling them trolls gives them credit for intellect, because they are intentionally posting in the manner they are to get a rise out of the "loony libs" here. If they're not trolls, then they're idiots.

It's one thing to lay out a case, using entire verbatim quotes and statistics (without editing, omission or addition) from reputable sources, without invective, and then tying those unsullied pieces of evidence together using reason.

It doesn't mean they won't come up with a different conclusion. But their positions are automatically more credible, as they are arrived at - and defended - by means other than personal attacks.

To illustrate my point, I think of the difference between David Brooks and William Kristol (who has had to print retractions in the NYT more than once for using lies about Obama). I disagree with them both. But Brooks is much more logical than Kristol, and doesn't write things he later has to retract after they're shown to be lies.

I'll stick to theCleverBulldog as I haven't dealt much with Perez.

I do agree that his "facts" are dishonest, but I don't think he necessarily realizes they are. My biggest beef with him would be that he rarely divulges the source of those facts. I suspect that he is at least partly aware of how biased and or untrustworthy his sources are, at least to us. You don't have to be an idiot to fool yourself, however.

As for his ad hominem attacks against Obama, however, I don't think he's done anything worse than how about half of TPM posters do with McCain. He goes does insult the guy, but AFAIK, they're not intensely personal. E.g., he'll call Obama stupid, etc., but I haven't seen much worse. Again, many people here are just fine with doing the same to McCain.

In his responses to other posters, I'll also point out that he does not seem to start fights. He's respectful when he is treated respectfully. I'm not going to be the guy's best defender, but I don't think it's productive to write him off as the enemy, either.

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No, you simply can't accept that anyone has different beliefs than your own, or that your views may in fact be WRONG, so you attack anyone who dares disagree and call them trolls. It is amazing how many times you have attacked the intellect or education of others who disagree with you, while decrying ad hominem attacks.

You're entitled to your own views, but not your own facts. And your last post about media fairness includes the lie that the Project for Excellence in Journalism reports that Obama received a higher proportion of positive press than McCain. The study concludes the opposite. That's called a lie. You are called a liar...or, very likely, much worse most of the time.

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Re-read what I wrote. I did not say the PEJ concluded coverage of Obama was more positive, I cited them for the stats on the quantity of coverage he received. The rest of it was based on my observations and opinions, which are just are relevant as PEJ's opinions, and cited the example of the "McCain can't use computers" story that has been repeated endlessly.

The McCain can't use a computer story is one of those little stories you can tell that's like your relative who doesn't use a computer. It's not relevant, and hardly a serious slam on McCain, except to people like us who can't fathom the idea. In this sense, it is making McCain more sympathetic to a lot of people who also can't use a computer or are inept or uncomfortable with them. I see it as a double-edged story that endears him to the kind of people he wants and does no real harm because so many of us who are comfortable with computers aren't going vote for him anyway.

What's really significant is how much they are not reporting about McCain. If Obama gets more press, it's because they are all over him. But to a disproportionate degree they ignore McCain's obvious mistakes and errors, inconsistencies, misjudgments and lies. That's the problem. It's not the quantity of coverage, it's the missing coverage that concerns me.

I'm going to have to take issue.
In a recent discussion you cited a wildly innaccurate obscure 13-year old Congressional projection as a source of economic data comparing Clinton to Reagan on GDP growth. You had to go looking for that paper, because the real data completely obliterates its conclusions.
When you cited your source, were you misinformed, in which case you can't be credited as having even an elementary understanding of macroeconomics, or were you engaging in active intellectual dishonesty?

It's one thing to lay out a case, using entire verbatim quotes and statistics (without editing, omission or addition) from reputable sources, without invective, and then tying those unsullied pieces of evidence together using reason.

As a "famous" troll, that despite being of the left, considers Barack Obama an obvious fraud, I totally support yoru position as stated in the above quote. It is the method that I myself try to use.

Frankly, I cannot see what the right wing has to worry about in Barack Obama, it is the left that has to worry about him, as his role seems to be that of a lightning rod, used to take the positive, progressive energy that abound today in the USA and direct it harmlessly into the ground.

As a "famous" troll, that despite being of the left, considers Barack Obama an obvious fraud

And it's moronic statements like that that get you labeled a troll. "An obvious fraud." What an idiotic thing to say. Why bother? Oh yeah, because you're a troll and that's what trolls do.

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You are an obvious troll, and my only reply to your bleating is:

PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA

He is really doing well overseas isn't he? Meanwhile Grampa McDepends is firing more of his staffers, demonstrating that all his experience only made him stupider, and has become totally unhinged that Maliki actually prefers

PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA's

sensible and well-consider plan to leave Iraq.

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I would love to be able to agree w/ you, but I'm a registered Republican who has voted Republican for 40 years, and I'm voting for Obama...and I'm no troll...didn't even know what one was until readytoblowagasket educated me a few days ago...

My excuse is that the Republicans have srewed up so badly for the last 7+ years that there's no way they are getting my vote...Can't imagine what the Dems could possibly have done that would piss one off so bad they's switch...Can't imagine why any thinking person on the planet would vote for McCain...

"For as many real trolls on these boards there are plenty of uppity "regulars" who finger people as trolls simply because they dare to post an unpopular opinion.

Too often people are called trolls simply to try to discredit their opinion. It's a silly way to try to win an argument."

Billy Glad.

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Hey, great piece. I am also a grad of the University of Illinois - GO YOU ILLINI!! I will be taking my twins to U of I in 1 month to start their university experience there. I really enjoyed my time at the U of I, but my attorney has advised that I limit the specifics of exactly what I really enjoyed. I also have not discussed these specifics with my kids. Time for that later, on my deathbed I think.

Good piece about reasoning with your friend. The problem, of course, is that politics is often not a reasoning exercize. That is why the PUMA trolls are such assholes.

That makes three of us. I'm not a grad, but I work there. GO ILLINI -- and Obama '08!

Make that four...

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Make that five, lived in Urbana, near Race and Oregon.

Sometimes people comment not to convince others but to reinforce to themselves the validity of their beliefs.

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Wonderful post, but the fallacy is that you can reason someone out aof a position he did not reason himself into.

Never been wrong? Never been embarrassed by what in depth research revealed? Never had to change your opinions?


Sounds to me like you're the same partisan jerk you've always been. Just better at presenting yourself.

Unfortunately, today growing and changing your mind means you are a flip flopper.

We want really, really rigid, stubborn people in office.

Yep.

What I discovered last night was that I've reached the point where I can present extemporaneous rebuttals in convincing fashion, using nothing but the truth and basic logic.

I have to confess, its a lot more fun looking up real information when you can shove it back in Conservatives faces;

for example, here, here and and here .

At the risk of being an armchair quarterback, I would've responded to his defense of Reagan's poor numbers being Carter's fault by asking him to explain Bush I's poor numbers.

And I'd answer to his assertion about why one shouldn't just use the last quarter: it's easy to cheat the system for a single quarter. In fact, amazing things always seem to happen right before a presidential election. Gas gets cheaper, for one thing.

I avoided discussion of the why's and instead focused on the what's. Ideologues want to talk about Why's so much that that ignore, cherry-pick and if all else fails, make up their own What's. In this case I took the meme of Reagan's Financial Supremacy away from him. According to the numbers, Reagan would have been a low scorer had he been a Democrat. He only looks good in comparison the other Republicans.

BTW I liked the results so much that I looked up stats on Unemployment and Inflation. Guess what? Democrats are better in those two areas as well (especially Unemployment). Unfortunately Carter was an outlier on Inflation, and his high numbers bring up the average and allow the Republicans to stay close. Now I'm trying to find credible non-partisan data on the Federal Deficit.

Anyone have any suggestions?

Boyd I've been doing what you describe for the better part of a decade. The real test is going to wingnut sites and using your abilities to bat back 10 or twenty insults. I've been banned by some of their best for ruining their days.

Donal says, "I'd say more folk have an emotional truth, a series of prejudices (truthiness?), that conflicts with the facts they are getting. Rather than adjust their beliefs, they turn to whatever source provides them with more reassuring information. Then they post it here like some sort of revelation."

I think Donal is right on.

Let me be an odious reductionist. I say what is going on here is some kind of split--separate emotional universes. On one side are people who are essentially authoritarian by nature and who want rules, clarity, and predictability. They support cops, the military, and President Pinocchio. On the other side are people who, for whatever reasons, are able to put up with ambiguity and the messiness of democracy. They don't understand us; we don't understand them.

. . . as Benjamin Cardozo said, "Sunlight is the best disinfectant."

Not to be trollish, but on the Google competition between Cardozo and Brandeis for authorship, Brandeis wins 2310 to 8.

I realize why I've had a hard time getting a handle on Andrew Perez.

You see, there's Andrew Perez (definitely not a troll), and then there's Andrew Perez, who I assume is the one actually being discussed.

I am happy for you that you have found your ability to easily make an argument or help someone to see the facts when you recognize that they are misinformed. Bravo!

And I completely dissent to the whole troll ideology... I once thought the term was used to make TPM special... you know, have their own slang, but really it is a game I am not interested in or buying into. If that makes me a TROLL then hallelujah! swear me in. Just don't find it helpful... more of a way of distancing oneself which if fine... but I wonder if you had recognized all of these so called 'trolls' as 'misinformed people', understanding how easy it is to be misinformed in our culture, if you might now have recognized much sooner your abilitly to easily help others to be better informed.

Calling names is never a way to win an argument. This includes calling someone a troll. When one does this, it indicates either that one hasn't an argument or that one is too lazy to make one's argument. If you think someone is wrong, say so and say why, but calling them a troll only makes you look lazy or without a real point to make.

Thanks for this. Very informative, helpful. And not once did I see a suggestion for people to watch what they say or to keep quiet or to "practice self-restraint." Bravo!

Some of you Internet whippersnappers clearly do not understand the meaning of the word troll:


1. v.,n. [From the Usenet group alt.folklore.urban] To utter a posting on Usenet designed to attract predictable responses or flames; or, the post itself. Derives from the phrase “trolling for newbies” which in turn comes from mainstream “trolling”, a style of fishing in which one trails bait through a likely spot hoping for a bite. The well-constructed troll is a post that induces lots of newbies and flamers to make themselves look even more clueless than they already do, while subtly conveying to the more savvy and experienced that it is in fact a deliberate troll. If you don't fall for the joke, you get to be in on it. See also YHBT.

http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/T/troll.html


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Wow. I just spent 10 minutes reading every comment on this post. It's hilarious. 99% of the commentors spend all their time bashing the seemingly only two Republican/right-leaning commentors on the whole site as "trolls", while everyone conveniently ignores left-leaning dude "dataguy" as he throws around childish attack phrases like "repukeliscum" and "conversaturd" to describe those who disagrees with him. I love it.

The Left, once again, shows us how "tolerant" and "open-minded" they are. At least, you know, when you agree with them.

Hee hee. And here I thought any site associated with Kerry Howley HAD to be classy and, you know, actually intelligent. But as it turns out, TPM is just another Huffington Post. Minus the traffic. (And the odor.)

Anyone who wants to have a discussion here should be prepared to back up what they're saying with verifiable data. Complain about Liberal intolerance all you want; for my part, I will not be tolerant of spurious arguments put out by Conservatives.

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Does TPM have an ethics policy relevant to this thread?

Is it a violation of TPM ethics to repost the same thing over and over?

Is it a violation of TPM ethics for a poster paid by a campaign or advocacy group to post an advocacy piece without identifying that they are paid staff?

Is it a violation of TPM ethics to post ethnic slurs?

Is it a violation of TPM ethics to advocate violence against a person, group or organizational entity?

Um, the whole thing is conveniently located in a link right above the box you typed your comment into. The link is labeled Comment Policy, and it's in red, yesiree it's right there above the place where you started typing your comment. It does address several of those things, though nothing about paid advocacy, and I believe you can be as repetitive as you like if you can take the blowback.

In addition, it clearly says all political points of view are welcome, which is why I posted it in a blog post a few weeks back, as reading that convinced me that hardly anyone here has read it.

Also when you click on "Blog Now" you get instructions which include a link reminding you of the terms of use you agreed to when you became a member here. Those are all the legal mumbo jumbo.

In my experience as a long-time member here, management has little interest in Reader Blog threads and basically lets anything happen and never enforce anything there. They have stepped in erratically when stuff happens in Contributor blog threads, to enforce the various things said in the "comments policy" link. (And that includes banning; people have been banned for behavior on Contributor threads.)

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