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FISA
6/16/08: FISA
6/17/08: FISA
6/18/08: FISA
6/19/08: FISA
6/20/08: FISA
6/21/08: FISA
6/22/08: FISA
6/23/08: FISA
6/24/08: FISA
6/25/08: FISA
6/26/08: FISA
6/27/08: FISA
6/28/08: FISA
6/29/08: FISA
6/30/08: FISA + Wes Clark
7/01/08: FISA
7/02/08: FISA
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Comments (89)
1. For the record, I initially welcomed the FISA debate. But that was two weeks ago.
2. I acknowledge that the best way to move on would be to write about something else. I apologize, I just haven't had time to do my part.
3. TPM continues to be funky with the spaces.
July 3, 2008 1:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
Great. Another FISA post.
July 3, 2008 1:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
And why are people recommending this post? All it has are a list of dates and the word FISA.
That's soooo informative.
Way to feed this Ghengis troll spamming TPM with his colorful animated GIFs.
July 3, 2008 9:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
thank goodness for june 30th.
July 3, 2008 2:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
GRRRR! Another FISA blogpost?
#@!*&ZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzz@#$!!
Sheesh! Enough with your obsession with FISA, Genghis! It's unseemly.
July 3, 2008 2:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
I haven't seen that yet, though I feel obligated to do so.
July 3, 2008 11:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
Like the interminable Democratic primary campaign, Genghis, this too will pass.
But not until next week.
How Obama finesses his position during the Senate debate will affect his long-term standing among his hardest-core supporters.
Until the vote is over and done with, it's pointless to ask them to move on.
And whatever you do, don't tell them to "get over it." They hate that.
July 3, 2008 3:04 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, well, even if you are tired of it, your privacy from the government is one of the biggest issues facing us.
Unlike issues of jobs, healthcare, etc., the Constitution does have provisions to protect us from the tyranny of the government.
This is a tone setting issue.
Sorry if seeing it written on TPM for 2 weeks is irritating. Perhaps you preferred the postings with critiques of the trolls? Or jingles roasting bloggers?
Why, we recently had someone cut and past the Declaration of Independence into a blog. Did that bother you more or less than this current issue which is pressing and, as of yet, undecided?
Just use the scroll bar, Genghis!
July 3, 2008 4:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
TPM certainly has had and continues to have far worse posts than the FISA ones. But that doesn't mean that we should keep talking about FISA.
While it's true that I don't regard telecom immunity as a critical issue, my chief concern is not that the issue is unimportant, but that the discussion doesn't evolve. Round-and-round the same tired debate that was had in the first couple days.
And finally, while I don't have to read FISA threads and generally don't anymore, I would like to see the talents of TPM writers be directed towards posts and topics that are more interesting to read and discuss (i.e. topics which have not been discussed to death). As I said, I should do this myself; I just haven't had the time.
July 3, 2008 8:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
Exactly. It's not the content of the discussion, it's the redundancy.
However, I have realized that I don't actually mind too much when the flurries get repetitive -- because that means it's easier to take a break from this site, and I can actually get more work done.
July 3, 2008 1:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
I see you use the word for "work" and the word for "Chat room" interchangeably. I can respect that.
July 4, 2008 12:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
Clear thinking, indeed.
Better for any who don't fully understand FISA to make doubly sure they understand the extent to which this legislation enables the United States government to spy on its citizens. Better to make sure we know the implications of immunity for telecoms, too.
The new FISA legislation will be good for 6 years.
We've got until July 8th to understand and make our views known.
I hope all TPM readers will share any and all information that might lead to greater understanding of the FISA legislation.
July 3, 2008 11:04 AM | Reply | Permalink
The guy on Morning Joe just made a great point about all the FISA obsessed medium-far left. If you hit Barack for compromising, you should not be allowed to talk on your Cell Phone in public ever again. :)
But seriously, there's going to be plenty to prosecute the Bushies for. But ONLY if Barack is elected. Let's just get him elected first at all costs. So, medium-far left, keep up your spirited fight, but please snap to it on November 4th.
PS - I love Mika Brzezinski. Cute laugh...
July 3, 2008 7:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
Wade:
There are many reasons to elect Senator Obama, but I can assure you that doing so with the expectation that "the Bushies" will be prosecuted is not one of them. It will not happen in an Obama Administration, in part because, when I see him in his best light, he appears to be more interested in looking forward. I'll bet my bottom dollar that the Senator will be content with seeing President Bush off to Crawford to clear brush.
July 3, 2008 8:22 AM | Reply | Permalink
bslev: President Obama won't lead the charge, of course. But if he wins, the people that really want to settle some scores personally (like, say, oh I don't know, Gov. Don Siegelman) and on behalf of the Constitution (some former US attys, some job applicants who didn't belong to the Federalist Society) will be emboldened to keep up the fight.
July 3, 2008 8:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
Bruce:
You are 100% correct, but after trying to make this point myself many times, I admire your energy to try to make it one more time!
Not only is such a move politically impractical, it disrupts the efforts of a president (and other officials) to implement their own agenda.
July 3, 2008 10:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
clearthinker: I haven't slavishly been reading the FISA threads for 2 weeks straight, so you weren't having that discussion with me.
I just figured that Waxman and Conyers would appreciate having a Democratic President as they continue with their investigations into the many, many malfeasances of the Bush Administration.
Like I said above, of course the new President isn't going to go on a witch hunt. It just seems to me that there's still work to be done sorting this mess out (oversight, war profiteering, no bid contracts), and the mess will get sorted out more easily with Democrats in charge of both the Executive and Legislative side of things.
July 3, 2008 10:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
Just applied for a FISA credit card. Pre-approved.
July 3, 2008 7:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
Ah, but...what's your interest rate?
July 3, 2008 8:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
If it's below average, it's almost certainly the result of some corrupt deal with Tony Rezko.
July 3, 2008 11:04 AM | Reply | Permalink
Fisa with anchovies is my favorite.
July 3, 2008 8:14 AM | Reply | Permalink
FISA, spam, spam, eggs, and spam is mine.
July 3, 2008 8:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
Liver with FISA beans and a nice chianti.
July 3, 2008 9:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
Ha!!! Good one! Love, Clarice
July 3, 2008 8:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
I prefer wild FISA in Death Penalty sauce with a garnish of Faith Based Initiatives.
July 3, 2008 8:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
At least it doesn't have anchovies.
July 3, 2008 9:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
Nice summary review.
July 3, 2008 8:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
I understand they may reverse FISA.
AS IF!
July 3, 2008 9:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
Oh I see, Ghengis. You're protesting the fact there are too many FISA posts by, get this, making a new FISA post.
Way to feed the FISA fire. Thanks Ghengis.
;-)
July 3, 2008 9:38 AM | Reply | Permalink
It's like McClatchy and like those fastidious Iraq War stories. Boooooooriiiiiiing! How long have they been like printing those? Like five years! FISA? ASIF!
July 3, 2008 9:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
Dood! Did u here what Wes Clark said aboutt FISA?
July 3, 2008 10:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
The time for investigating the many malfeasances of Both adminstrations is up.
Impeachment IS on the table; investigating WAR CRIMES is not. Conyers speaks out of both sides of his mouth, Obama has no intention of upholding the Constitution,
This is an example of We the People must take control.
I give my buck$ to Ralph Nader right now ..
July 3, 2008 11:04 AM | Reply | Permalink
This person claims to be a Canadian. From his or her posts, the person seems to be nothing more than a republican troll. The person seems hellbent on attacking Obama.
July 3, 2008 11:38 AM | Reply | Permalink
FISA!
July 3, 2008 11:12 AM | Reply | Permalink
AS IF
July 3, 2008 11:38 AM | Reply | Permalink
nice
July 3, 2008 11:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
FISA for VP
July 3, 2008 11:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
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July 3, 2008 11:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
So there.
July 3, 2008 11:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
I stopped reading after the third FISA
July 3, 2008 11:50 AM | Reply | Permalink
Why not the first? Thought you were tired of FISA?
Or are you just a glutton for punishment, Genghis?
;-)
July 3, 2008 11:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
My reading comprehension is delayed. I didn't realize what Frog Leg was saying until the third one. If I could take back the all three, I would.
July 3, 2008 12:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Dude, you're gonna get banned... careful!
July 3, 2008 11:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
LOL! Yes, that one comment by Lila has already changed the tone here... and perhaps not for the better.
July 3, 2008 11:54 AM | Reply | Permalink
So we posted the same thing at the same time? I'm sure that means something, but I have absolutely no idea what.
July 3, 2008 3:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
It proves once and for all that we aren't the same person.
I think.
July 3, 2008 4:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
Careful, the TPM thought patrol may ban you for that!
July 3, 2008 11:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, Okay, this FISA repeat seems like an example of a not very constructive post. What's the deal here?
July 3, 2008 2:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hi Lila. Welcome to the cafe. Don't blame Frog Leg. I started it. He/she is just running with the joke.
This is one of those threads which, while not pointless, is not very serious in purpose. People use threads like this for friendly banter, in contrast to the combative debate threads. IMO, such threads were helpful in tamping down some of the anger during the primary season, which in turn promoted civility in the debate threads, though of course there is a danger of having too many of these banter threads because they're only interesting to cafe regulars.
In any case, I hope that the new editorial policy allows for threads like this one (in moderation). Though I had a point to make, it's certainly not my most thoughtful post. I'll write one with more content when I have more time. And if Frog Leg hits that post with a FISAFISAFISA, I encourage you to ban him or her for eternity.
Also, please ban Yoda Urbinato. He's a troll.
July 3, 2008 3:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
This bothers me. Why does it seem as though you are apologizing?
July 3, 2008 3:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
Because Genghis is. And with some reason, I might add.
In case you missed it:
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/07/free-massdem.php#comment-2945482
and in particular:
I have yet to hear what a "real discussion" is defined as.
July 3, 2008 4:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
Didn't miss it, and it still really bothers me.
Especially when a poster starts aplologizing for something someone else wrote that was actually meant in fun. As a comment on their post.
I understand big brother watching. Or big sister. But if you're gonna reach out and touch me, chose your battle carefully.
July 3, 2008 8:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Pseudo apology. I'm not worried about being banned--that would give me some street cred. But I recognize and share TPM's interest in keeping the content quality high. In fact, this meta-post is my own snarky attempt at quality control. But it honestly isn't a high-quality post. One of those posts where I debated whether to subject the world to it and then just said, fuck it.
July 3, 2008 5:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
For the record, I think it's hilarious that MassDem got banned for posting the middle english dictory.
July 3, 2008 5:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
dictory is middle english for dictionary
July 3, 2008 5:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Uh-huh. Nice try.
July 3, 2008 6:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Since when does a post have to have quality? Conversations often do not, except to those directly involved. Who decides the definition of quality - Lila?
July 3, 2008 8:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
Don't talk about moderation! It's bad luck!
July 3, 2008 3:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
You've probably said this already somewhere, but in case you haven't, or you could point me to it, my question is this: Why do you think the FISA topic has taken off like this? Maybe it's frustrating that the TPMers keep talking about it and going in circles, but there is some reason they can't let it go. What larger issue does this one topic speak to that causes this obsessive behavior? Is it the disappointment in Obama? Is it the anger at Bush? Is it all of the secret terrorist activities they are talking about on their cell phones? Is it depression because they miss Hillary?
July 4, 2008 1:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
I think there are a few factors:
July 4, 2008 1:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
one, If it is so normal for TPMers not to let go of a topic, why is Genghis complaining so much?
two, I agree. Personally, I miss the primary. It's like when you are really into a new tv show and the season ends.
three, did he actually shift his policy position or did he just shift his level of dedication to it?
Obama always talks about "we." How "we" are going to change things, etc, and I think people feel really a part of this thing and along with that goes a sense of entitlement, that he is doing more than disappointing them but that they are no longer part of the team.
July 4, 2008 1:38 AM | Reply | Permalink
One -- of course i can't say why Genghis is complaining, but, for my part, there were times in the primary season where nothing new was happening, and a similar scenario played out. And people complained plenty then, too. The only difference is that there was enough else going on, that other topics would start edging out the tired ones ever so slightly more quickly.
Three -- good question, and one to which I have no idea what the answer is.
I think you're right about the "we" issue. It will be interesting to see how that plays out, but my instinct is that, while the campaign is a part of "the team," initiatives like the national service ideas Obama was talking about the other day are more important.
July 4, 2008 2:24 AM | Reply | Permalink
I don't think I am following you on the reference to the national service initiatives. I stand by my comment that the Obama campaign has developed a feeling of "we are all a part of this" instead of simply "we are all supporting him." People expect him to agree with them, because, a lot of people are working really hard to defend him, raise money for him from their friends, etc.
As I said, I surely need to understand the FISA issue more, but it seems to me he is being pragmatic, which is just how he is. He seems to really take each issue seperately, and sometimes thinks if he can't change something he will just let it go for now. In that sense he is less idealistic than some of his followers. Maybe less idealistic than myself, but then again I am not trying to be president so it is easier for me to say I am always going to fight for what I believe in even if it is impractical for one reason or another.
July 4, 2008 1:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
See my response to your repost below.
July 4, 2008 1:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
Was it a threat? Was it snark? What do you think? Vote here.
But no funny business, in case it was the former.
July 3, 2008 4:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
uh...
Fisa?
July 3, 2008 5:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
THIS IS EXCELLENT NEWS!! FOR FISA!!
July 3, 2008 11:48 AM | Reply | Permalink
Alas, like a cowboy who vanquishes the outlaw and rides off into the sunset, joltin' idiotic has left and gone away.
July 3, 2008 11:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
I harbor a sneaking suspicion he now is typing in ALL CAPS as another personna.
July 3, 2008 12:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
CAUTION!!! Previous metaphor is as mixed as a strawberry and Kierkegaard salad. Prenatal guidance is suggestive.
July 3, 2008 1:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Jan Brady: Well, all day long at school I hear how great Marcia is at this or how wonderful Marcia did that! Marcia, Marcia, Marcia!
July 3, 2008 11:54 AM | Reply | Permalink
It's called "persistence of bitchin'."
July 3, 2008 1:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
Come ON guys! This is funny.
July 3, 2008 1:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't get it. Serious, I don't. Though I believe you when you say it's funny.
July 3, 2008 3:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh no you don't. You're not going to goad me into trying to explain a pun. Nuh-uh. No way. I WAS born at night, but it wasn't LAST night. No turnip trucks in my immediate past. Fageddaboudit.
July 3, 2008 3:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
I want a FISA nano.
July 3, 2008 1:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Nah. Those things only play one song over and over again.
July 3, 2008 3:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
OK, that's funny too. But I'm still bitter about the persistence thing.
July 3, 2008 3:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
but only if it's from a milk-fed census taker.
July 3, 2008 4:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hey! This was supposed to be in reply to a Don Key Hannibal Lecter reference way up thread. OK, put me down now as a member of the frustrated masses in regard to the format here...
July 3, 2008 4:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Genghis,
Since this is your thread, should we also be testing the ban limits of meta-posting? I mean if I did this:
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/07/fisa.php#comment-2945630
is that grounds for getting my throat cut?
July 3, 2008 4:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Lila, please ban CT for meta-posting spam comments and other offenses too disturbing to relate here.
July 3, 2008 5:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
You really said that? Kinda lame. Not his fault, the shirt made him do it.
July 3, 2008 6:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think the endless FISA debate is a symptom of an underlying crisis in the netroots.
Everything seems to be going our way. We've got a smart, charismatic candidate for Prez who has established a strong early lead. The other guy just reshuffled his staff and tacitly admitted that he hasn't yet framed a clear message. It's a good year for Dems to pick up seats in Congress. The party is more unified and energized than I can ever remember it being.
So here's the crisis: What the hell are we supposed to talk about?
July 3, 2008 9:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
Cute.
July 3, 2008 10:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Maybe talk about ways we can shame the MSM into actually covering the campaign instead of being stenographers for McCain?
Or debating the point markg8 made on another thread today (the one about Norm Coleman spewing on Cuban oil, agh) about not being content to preach to the choir here but to also aggressively counter lies in the MSM.
http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/07/vulnerable_gop_senator_recites.php#comment-2946425
Full disclosure: I love Genghis' post! And miss idiotic! But markg8 is onto something, methinks...
July 3, 2008 10:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
I just asked, a few posts up, what is really the meaning behind all the FISA obsession. You may be right, that it is a crisis of what to talk about. But from your post, about how great everything seems to be going, there may be another point here to be had. Maybe people are just so excited about Obama, they feel like anything is possible. And if anything is possible then why should we have to put up with our candidate doing one single thing we don't like? Maybe everyone is getting a little spoiled, yes?
July 4, 2008 1:10 AM | Reply | Permalink
It sets a tone on a key issue: Privacy.
It sets a tone on a key Obama tactic: Let others define the issues.
The government has no responsibility to provide health care or jobs or a myriad of other things -- it does have a responsibility of staying out of your life.
This is a key, fundamental issue.
That's the reason it is so important.
July 4, 2008 1:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, and republicans are soooo big on staying out of our lives unless it happens to be an issue on which they, well, want to be in our lives.
July 4, 2008 1:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
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