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Dear Josh Marshall: You make no sense
TPM founder Joshuah Micah Marshall said yesterday that the new McCain ad--comparing Obama to celebrities Britnay Spears and Paris Hilton-- sought to imply that Obama has a "taste for young white women."
Of course, Marshall did not provide any reasoning whatsoever to explain how he came to that conclusion, or where in the ad the possibility of Obama being attracted to white women is even hinted. Go ahead, readers. See the ad and be your own judge.
Inventing this kind of BS worked against Hillary Clinton, because virtually everyone in the media, left, center and right, hated her, and refused to ask the likes of Marshall to lay out the premises behind their arguments.
But these are not the primaries. The corporate media no longer feels compelled to play dumb, since Marshall's target is their beloved John McCain, not Clinton.
Washington Post's media critic Howard Kurtz, for instance, found Marshall's remark puzzling:
But isn't the McCain camp mockingly comparing Obama to the likes of Britney Spears, rather than implying that he likes to hang with starlets?
Again, Marshall should start make sense, since his comments will be scrutinized this time around. McCain is not a Clinton.





Comments (173)
There you go, kid.
That's a good, tough, well-reasoned post...so be prepared to be either ignored or vilified.
July 31, 2008 10:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
How was Josh Marshall remotely responsible for "BS" that was invented about Hillary?
Why did the McCain camp choose these two particular celebrities? They are both young white women with a reputation for sexual promiscuity. Gee, I wonder.
August 1, 2008 3:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Apparently a false prediction on both counts
August 1, 2008 3:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think it's a dumb, false, poorly reasoned post. Does that qualify as vilification?
August 1, 2008 6:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Another drive-by bit of foolishness, with no response from the writer for almost 20 hours. Reminds me of E.J. Graff.
August 1, 2008 6:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
Not a drive-by. The writer is truthseeker, and he did respond below.
August 1, 2008 7:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
The only reason that Paris and Britney are in an ad about Obama is to play on deep-seated fears of black male sexuality.
They're not *comparing* Obama to these two women. They are suggesting that he wants to, or is, copulating with them.
It's not logical, it's emotional That's how ads work. And this one, thanks to its vile and subterranean racism, is working very well.
Part of the genius of this sort of thing is that some of those most deeply affected by it are not even aware of what they are reacting to.
How about you, Andrew? Are you more or less likely to vote for Obama after watching this ad?
August 1, 2008 12:50 AM | Reply | Permalink
So because a picture of Britnay, then one of Paris, and then one of Obama are shown, it is clear that we are being told that Obama is sexually attracted to them? That, my friend, is a very weak argument.
And of course Obama's ability to attract huge crowds is being compared to the same skill possessed by Britnay and Paris. They all attrackt crowds, and you can see in the ad how these crowds are the central theme.
You are getting too "subliminal" on us.
August 1, 2008 1:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
Why did they pick Britney and Paris, and not Brad Pitt or Beyonce?
August 1, 2008 6:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
Are you serious? Paris Hilton's dad is a McCain supporter.
August 1, 2008 7:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Why would they have to pick the celebrities you want them to pic? It' their ad. And no matter how many porn videos Paris has made, she is not shown flirting with Obama or interacting with him in any way. And Britnay is known for her songs, not her promiscuity.
August 2, 2008 11:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
They originally wanted to use Amy Winehouse for the international effect, but thought playing the Drug Card would be a step too far.
August 1, 2008 2:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
Washington Post's media critic Howard Kurtz, for instance, found Marshall's remark puzzling.
Well there's a shocker.
Howard Kurtz is still trying to figure out how those coin changers can tell a dollar bill from a piece of paper.
Tool.
August 1, 2008 3:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
Spears and Hilton are not on most of the recent Top 10 lists from the leading Entertainment mags. They're "old" news in the entertainment biz.
If the point was to highlight the "celebrity" aspect, why wouldn't they choose the biggest celebrities of today, like Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie, or George Clooney or any of the others that make up the Top 10 lists?
McCain't instead chooses two young, melanin-deficient, hyper-sexualized woman, mixed with several shots that oddly emphasize the monument Obama spoke in front of.
Draw your own conclusions.
August 1, 2008 6:54 AM | Reply | Permalink
George Clooney is big today?
I don't think McCain was trying to build up Obama. He was comparing Obama to fizzled out flash-in-the-pan ditzes. He could have chosen Ricky Martin for a "where are they now" moment, but Paris and Britney do bring rehab, mental institution and jailhouse meltdowns to make the comparison more sordid.
August 1, 2008 7:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
George Clooney doesn't fit the strategy. But if we were doing the same thing to McCain, for instance, we might use Rosemary Clooney.
August 1, 2008 7:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
Alex, you're being exceptionally mean today. I like it.
August 1, 2008 8:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
Um, Rosemary Clooney was a big Bobby Kennedy fan. She was present when he was assassinated and had a nervous breakdown because of it. George Clooney has nothing but respect for his aunt, and the torch singer in Good Night and Good Luck was an obvious homage to Rosemary.
So, it's not meanness on Alex's part, it's just plain ignorance.
August 1, 2008 9:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
Excellent post.
Both Clooneys are American pop culture at its very best.
August 1, 2008 5:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
The white women meme is bush league stuff. I think it's pretty outrageous to suggest that the juxtaposition of a black man with white women is designed to evoke some kind of latent fear of the black man. That's just plain nuts. Sophomoric. Wet. Bush. I'm at a loss for words, Dr. Freud.
August 1, 2008 8:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
It's funny, there's so much inanity going around. Yesterday someone was pointing out a Kos Diary that noted how amazing it was at the Harvard Law Review in 1992, a black man and a white woman actually working together!!! (I think they called it "an incongruous team" or something.) Perhaps people should turn off their TVs and PCs and get out more.
August 1, 2008 9:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
I agree with you. I am disappointed by Josh Marshall on that, I thought he was savvier about current culture, I found it very clueless. Shocking almost, really clueless. (It's not even Bush league because Bush works with Condi Rice every day--heck in the last two conventions the GOP went out of their way to find token faces of color.) Yes, of course, there are still people that would react like Josh thinks in this country, but they are not the ones that need to be targeted with advertising, their votes are decided and firm, no one but an idiot would be wasting time pandering to them.
August 1, 2008 9:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
You're absolutely correct, Lamont. Thanks. McCain doesn't have money to waste like Obama does. He's going after undecideds.
August 1, 2008 10:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
Undecided white fathers with young daughters.
August 1, 2008 3:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
We have to be careful not to project our own hangups onto the general electorate. This is the 21st Century for chrissakes.
August 1, 2008 3:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's not a hangup I have.
If you don't think that dynamic exists in the 21st Century, you need to travel around America.
August 1, 2008 6:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
I travel around America a lot. Have for a long time. It may be in your mind, but you want to be careful about projecting it on to America in general. Sounds like you're looking for an excuse to lose.
August 1, 2008 7:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
That dog whistle was meant for real hounddawgs and not for one-testicled yappy beltway show poodles like Howie Putz.
August 1, 2008 9:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
Nonsense. If McCain doesn't have the racist vote yet, this sure ain't going to do it.
It's related to the Hollywood liberal thing, a new version, and its meant to turn Appalachian type working class and swings off of Obama for that reason. It's the same thing as would you have a beer with this guy, would this guy have a beer with you, etc.
August 1, 2008 9:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
It makes a lot of sense to believe that the Republican innuendo machine is engaging in racial innuendo when it unnecessarily juxtaposes the images of white female sex symbols with that of a black candidate.
It also makes a lot of sense that they would bury such innuendo under another more overt message. This is the way it has always been done. This is the way advertising of all sorts, not just political, works.
August 1, 2008 2:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
And the fact that someone even wrote this blog entry with a straight face (I guess) on TPM shows that it works.
August 1, 2008 3:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
You are correct. If some here want to duck their head in the sand about the unspoken racial fears that McCain is trying to stoke then God heal them. The GOP is playing to base fears of black male sexuality but it appears that some here are just to uncomfortable to acknowledge that. Too bad....they are missing the real point of these ads.
Hey for the doubters maybe we should ask Senator Harold Ford, Jr of Tennessee. Oops I forgot he lost after the "Call me Harold" ads which of course had nothing to do with stoking white fears of black male sexuality (snark).
August 1, 2008 3:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
The Harold Ford ad was TRASPARENTLY playing on the white women angle. That is my point. There was absolutely no purpose other than to stoke racial tensions. It was supposed to be a triple-edged sword targeted at: white men scared of black men after their women; some blacks in genenral questioning if Harold Ford was black enough; some black women in particular who view a black man dating a white woman as a sell-out.
The ad was the lowest of the low. The McCain ad cannot be fairly compared with it in the same breath.
Are there some people who get that black men - white women subtext? Perhaps and guess what - they weren't voting for Obama anyway because they are racist.
So do we react to the more overt message that Obama is all flash but not substance? That's the overt message that any reasonable person who views that ad is going to see. It's a double win for McCain because the flap is focused on racism (which not everyone sees in the ad), and it gives him the chance to portray Obama (and his supporters) as playing the race card.
The danger is that the overtly racist attacks are coming - whether from the McCain camp or an outside entity. People will be less willing to hear the outcry when we cry foul over something as silly as this ad.
This argument helps McCain - not Obama. We should be focusing on substance not race.
Britny &
August 1, 2008 10:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
I dunno - this ad isn't as blatant as the Ford ad, but I think that's what makes it worse.
The Ford ad was pretty obvious, which meant that the racial message was quickly called out and make explicit almost immediately. This ad is very much not obviously doing the racist dog whistle thing. But after watching it a few times, I think that the implicit associations are there, and because they are so tenuous and hard to pin down, they are probably more effective in priming racial anxieties in Americans who, if they got the message explicitly, would repudiate it. In fact, there some evidence that people who were pretty racist on the surface rejected the Willie Horton ads after Jesse Jackson made the racial undertones explicit.
So I'd say that the Ford ad was hamfisted, and would never have worked in a national election. The "Celebrity" ad is very likely an indication that those who play dogwhistle politics have learned to do "Call Me" better.
August 2, 2008 1:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry, this time it wasn't a dog whistle.
August 1, 2008 9:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
Did someone call me? Or was that a wolf whistle?
August 1, 2008 2:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
If Josh Marshall wants to make an ass of himself, let him. From what I've seen, whenever someone calls him on it, he only digs his heels in. Once again, he's not only wrong but whack.
Josh wrote:
Notice how Josh creates a nifty escape hatch in case he's wrong: by saying his theory will be disputed during the campaign, and only after it's all over will people come around to seeing it his way.
Not likely.
I guess Josh forgets that Harold Ford Jr. killed his own campaign without any help from the Republicans.
The ad against Ford was based on a highly publicized story about Ford's attendance at a Playboy Super Bowl Party. When Ford was asked about it by the press, he said, "I like football and I like girls. I don't make any apologies for that."
Oh, whoops! Of course the opposition is going to capitalize on when the church-going opponent says stupid shit. That's how the game works.
McCain's Britney-Paris ad does not sexualize Britney or Paris or anyone else. It stays strictly on message because of the background audio: the chanting of O-ba-ma! throughout the entire clip. The message is: Do you want a rock star for president?
Most people will answer no.
The Dems are really quite talented at losing.
August 1, 2008 9:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
We get a lot of help from our leading Progressive bloggers. Now Josh has invented the dog whistle that only he can hear. My first thought is sex deprivation. It's a fact that the less sex you have the more likely you are to read sexual symbolism into everything. We need to get our thought leaders laid.
August 1, 2008 10:01 AM | Reply | Permalink
LOL! Those were my thoughts exactly!
August 1, 2008 10:04 AM | Reply | Permalink
What's wrong with that response? Most pundits thought it was the best response of the 2006 election. It's not his fault that the GOP ran sleazy ads about him.
August 1, 2008 3:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
What's "wrong" with the response is that up to that point Ford had been presenting himself as a church-going choir boy, and the statement seemed to contradict that image of purity. In addition, lots of people were very pissed off that he had filmed this campaign ad in a church. You know, "separation of church and state"?
August 1, 2008 6:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
Anyone who thinks separation of church and state means that you can film a political ad in a church is pretty far out there.
He went to the party. What was he supposed to say? He said he likes girls, so what? You can go to church every Sunday AND like girls. And football. He didn't say he wanted to steal all the white women or whatever you think his seven word statement implied.
August 1, 2008 6:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Look, I don't live in Tennessee, so don't blame me for what other people think. I'm telling you the chronology of events, period. Stop assuming my generosity is unlimited.
Harold Ford lost. A Republican won. What is it you don't understand about what went down? Because of Ford's loss, by the way, Democrats did not actually have a majority in the Senate.
August 1, 2008 8:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry, Des. I may have killed the thread.
August 1, 2008 11:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
You too, Andrew. Apologies for mixing you up with Des. And dee dee, I always agree with you. Especially when you point out how stupid, Des' comments are.
August 1, 2008 11:15 AM | Reply | Permalink
This post would never get enough recommends because it's critical of Josh. We must always reserve space on the Rec List for MsJoanne (2) and quinn (2) and Connie Manes (1, so far).
Maybe Andrew can write a new post soliciting funds from Obamanauts to pay for a babysitter for Josh and his wife so they can have a romantic evening all to themselves for a change.
August 1, 2008 11:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
LOL. I may have to spend the day wandering from Starbucks to Starbucks, recommending this post under my many famous pseudonyms.
August 1, 2008 11:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
Hell gasket, since I barely have enough material to fill one space a month, feel free to take the open one, eh? In fact, take 'em both - the sun's finally come out. If I need one for some burning issue, guess I'll just have to go head-to-head with Captain Cauliflower.
August 1, 2008 1:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's true, quinn, you barely have enough material. What was your point with the age thing anyway? You compared Obama's age to a pair of neocons, Blair and Harper!
When you don't give people something real to work with, the thread disintegrates into white noise. Then your half-baked post sits there taking up space. It's frustrating.
I don't have time to write a post myself, I'm too busy insulting people to keep them from writing so much crap. I'm fed up.
August 1, 2008 1:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
You're smart as hell gasket, and a good writer. You're also fed up. But maybe being fed up can lead a person to not see some of what's there, or what's between the lines. I compared Obama to the 2 neo-cons? Yes. But also to 2 other newbies - Miliband & Cameron. Who share a lot of similarities. The myopic focus on Obama-as-one-of-a-kind, by friend & foe, loses pretty much all perspective. and that's bad news for him & Dems. And between the lines - til I put it in the comments - was that Hillary is quite similar to Brown & Martin. And the failure of that group of politicians pisses me off - cause they had & HAVE a lot of talent. But none coped well with recent changes in the game. Might be worth thinking about why they failed at certain steps, and what changes they & that generation need to make.
As for your insults, hey, like I said - you're a good writer & smart. If you wanna chat, that's fine - just talk to me. Insult the posters or the commenters if you want - but leave the other stuff out, if that's ok. And then post something again, willya? Seriously. This place needs good stuff.
August 1, 2008 2:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hell no, Billy - you *made* the thread. I wasn't around to stoke the fires.
August 3, 2008 4:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
If you wish to be kept informed on the latest Paris Hilton and Britney Spears gossip, then vote for McCain.
Joan Rivers McCain has crossed The Gossip Girl In Chief Threshold.
August 1, 2008 12:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's called the power of suggestion.
Why are there half-naked women in beer commercials? Why does Abercrombie & Fitch have to have naked teenager-like models in their catalog to sell CLOTHING???
Sex in advertising works when it is done tastefully. McCain's crew uses the distasteful choice of celebrities such as Paris and Britany--both known form their steamy crotches--and places them with a black man.
What does it suggest to you?
I also notice the phallus symbols in the ad--the tower in Germany and the Washington Monument.
It may not have been intentional but the symbolism is there.
August 1, 2008 2:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
The ad, narrated by a woman, uses the words:
1) He's the biggest
2) drilling
3) raise
It's clearly all about sex.
But if so, wouldn't this then be an ad that shows Obama in a favorable light? If you know what I mean.
August 1, 2008 2:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
Favorable for who? McCain? Yes. Obama? No.
It's clearly not all about sex, but you wouldn't believe how incorporating sex into an advertisement can be used for and against a "product" and how it can make a difference without much effort. In this case, Obama is the product. And while Britney and Paris probably have millions of fans there are still enough conservatives that believe their celebrity sexuality are influencing and ruining their kids (or grandkids). And here Obama is not only associating with them as well as perched on their celebrity level.
August 1, 2008 3:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
I meant favorable to Obama. By sexing him up.
August 1, 2008 5:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
You may be on to something there. But I dunno. This type of claim, in absence of further evidence (as in other similar ads), requires a lot of assumptions.
Don't get me wrong, I'd gladly throw a rock at McCain if I saw him in person. But this isn't the reason why. (Just kidding about the rock. Kind of.)
August 1, 2008 2:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
Years ago when I first entered college I thought I wanted to be in mass communications (advertising) and took some classes. There is a reason why ad agencies make millions from their clients--they know what sells. Like I said before, normally, advertising campaigns intentionally place sex tastefully in an advertisement to draw your attention, please see: http://hotandnerdy.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/hn-dg-ad.jpg
http://swissmiss.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/at_first_glance_1_4.jpg
These ads are made for men, obviously. But it works without going over the edge, IMO.
I'm no expert, but I am ruined for life. I can no longer look at advertisements without critiquing them for their sexual content.
August 1, 2008 3:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
My prescription for your malady is upstream. Good night and good luck.
August 1, 2008 5:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
tonalli is right. The fact is Republicans, and their supporters, are obsessed with sex and the female reproductive tract specifically.
Republicans get engrossed about gays, gay marriage, abortion, contraception, and even polygamy thrives in deep red conservative parts of the country.
Any time Republicans put white pussy into an ad with a black man, the sexual connotations are as clear as day.
August 1, 2008 8:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
To you at least. But wait a minute. What does that make you? A Republican?
August 1, 2008 10:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
Note how you cite two expamples of naked women, ignoring that Paris and Britnay are shown fully clothed and not interacting with Obama in any way.
Those who seek to paint this ad as racist are being overly analytical.
August 2, 2008 2:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Andrew:
I totally agree, Andrew. There is so much so very wrong with the "celebrity" ad -- Joe Klein put it very well: we have two wars, a housing crisis, an economy in shambles, and THIS is the campaign McCain wants to run???!!! -- but Marshall is just MAKING THINGS UP, so eager he is to play the race card.And this is exactly the sort of commentary we saw from the likes of Marshall and Olbermann and 90% of the liberal bloggers during the primaries against Bill and Hillary Clinton. They should be ashamed of themselves. It was disgusting against the Clintons, and now it's depressing against "McCain and the Republicans".
And no, tonalli, it's not "called the power of suggestion." By putting Britney and Paris in the ad (a horrible decision, by the way), the McCain camp means to suggest that Obama is vacuous, presumptuous, lacking substance, and attempting to use celebrity status to win the White House. Britney and Paris's race seem to be completely incidental -- and, btw, if McCain had picked black celebrities the outcry of "race baiting" would have been just as fierce -- and in NO reasonable way is there a suggestion that the ad implies that Obama DESIRES white women.
And, I never thought I'd hear myself saying it, on Obama and his supporters like Marshall playing the "race card" issue illegitimately, I think the McCain camp is right. I hope they extinguish this false fire.
August 1, 2008 2:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
And now Josh is running a blurb that says an ABC "handline" says Obama camp admits they played the race card!
How crazy can this get? How the hell do you come back from an admission that you played the race card in the 21st Century? Now everybody can see clearly how they ran this game on Clinton. They forgot McCain is a Republican with a conservative base and that he's been itching for this fight. He was totally energized behind this stuff today.
They are sticking it to Obama all over the web today.
http://www.johnmccain.com/videolanding/theone.htm
This is the kind of snark McCain loves. Obama better get a sense of humor fast!
August 1, 2008 3:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
But look at it this way--how many politicians have admitted to accusing an apponent of something they didn't do? Obama is coming forward and stating his error unlike no other politician and saying yes, "I was referring to my race" not the McCain camp--ingenious. Not only is he honest, he's showing he is accountable for his actions, and refreshingly STILL stating the truth of the matter; that he does not look like the other white men on our currency.
August 1, 2008 3:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
I do believe you've seen that light.
August 1, 2008 4:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
That's not admitting to "playing the race card," which has a specific meaning.
The McCain ONE video makes Obama look good. It's not really an ad, since they aren't going to pay to run it.
Anyway, this McCain ad actually PUT OBAMA'S FACE ON MONEY! WHY IS NO ONE TALKING ABOUT IT?!?!?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDTJDv4hevU
Oh, well. No one's talking about this Obama ad either.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPPLSHKH0h4
It's theme is PAST, SAME, OLD, FAILED.
August 1, 2008 7:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Here's why I think evoking Britney and Paris has racial undertones -- if the Britney/Paris ad were an ad about McCain or any number of other politicians, the response would probably be a lot of head scratching -- and not because McCain has so much "substance." (He does not.) It would be a head-scratcher because, even though he left his first wife for an heiress and has since banged a lobbyist or two, he's regarded as a sexually neutral old white guy.
In connection with Obama, however, there's a sexual charge to the ad. Why is that? He's certainly squeakier clean than McCain, so it's not any rumors afoot. He's young (relatively speaking). He's attractive and fit but not in an overtly sexual way. And he's black. That's the racial stereotype. It's just there. You put a couple of sexually preening young white women next to a black man, and you get a sexual charge. That's our culture.
And, while those posting here that JMM is wrong may be too unattuned to our cultural history to recognize that, you can rest assured that Karl Rove and his minions are not.
August 1, 2008 3:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh come on. You guys need to read my suggestion upthread. Get a sense of humor or get laid. But hey! In the latest lampoon, Moses has a big rod and the Red Sea parts. Pretty sexy stuff. LMFAO.
http://www.johnmccain.com/videolanding/theone.htm
August 1, 2008 3:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Your suggestion is offensive, and there's obviously no need for you to make it to every commenter with whom you disagree.
August 1, 2008 7:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Offensive? Recommending sex as a cure to fixation on non-existent sexual memes is offensive? Sex is offensive? What kind of Democrat are you?
August 1, 2008 7:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Uptight.
August 1, 2008 8:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think it's there.
If you're going to make a television advertisement that appeals to racism, you have to hide your tracks. For that reason, the ad makes its suggestions visually and not verbally.
For some segment of the population, the juxtaposition of a black man with two highly sexualized women will have instantaneously recognizable associations.
It's unlikely that someone who reads Talkingpointsmemo is among that segment of the population, but large numbers of low information Americans -- voters -- were raised in a world where anxieties about black sexuality were far more prevalent and foreceful than they are today.
This ad is meant to freak those people out.
Pretend you're a sixty-five year old voter in Ohio who traditionally votes democratic.
Now watch the add with the sound off.
August 1, 2008 3:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
No, you can't watch the ad with the sound off. No one does that in real life. You have to analyze the ad like it exists in the real world. The sound of the chanting of Obama's name and the flashes going off is part of the overall message of brain-dead celebrity.
August 1, 2008 6:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Behold his mighty hand! I'm sorry. It's funny!
August 1, 2008 3:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Whose mighty hand are you talking about? The mighty hand of John McCain which is now completely severed from the tattered remains of his integrity and soul?
Oh. That mighty hand. Yeah, that's funny all right.
August 1, 2008 3:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
And that blooooooody "Possumus Seal" appears in the middle of the waters, and then again at the end. It's a good bit by McCain, and the Obama campaign better get to work on puncturing the pomposity, pronto. That "race card" debate just makes 'em look more pompous. Somebody get Axelrod into a bar, fast.
August 1, 2008 3:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ah, yes. The possumus seal. They have obviously decided to ridicule him to deprive him of his essential gravitas. And what is really rich is on the front page Marshall is still beating the "they're trying to make Barack scary" drum. Catch up, Josh. They're trying to make him foolish! I promise you. I know where these guys come from. If Rove is involved, it is going to get a lot worse. Having been made fun of about as much as anyone at this site, maybe I should give the only only some advice.
August 1, 2008 4:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Precisely! Good wording.
August 1, 2008 4:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
Nice fine point on the ad, quinn. :-)
August 1, 2008 5:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's very clear to me as well that the ad is not about race, it's about the rock star thing. Not only that, I remembered reading that this has already been researched, it's known it hurts Obama with swings, it's one of big his weak points with swings.
I remembered that pollster analyst Charlie Cook in a July 12 article noted it:
August 1, 2008 3:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's very clear to me that it's about more than one thing. Britney and Paris are not rock stars. They're barely even stars any more.
Yes, Britney and Paris are airheads, and that's part of it too. But it's the racial charge that drives the message home and makes it stick in the minds of those low information voters timothysull mentioned.
And just because you apparently think the ad can only be about one thing doesn't mean Karl Rove thinks that way.
August 1, 2008 3:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
If this is from Karl Rove you hit the nail on the head. In 2000, didn't he portray McCain as "the fag candidate"? Didn't he accuse McCain's daughter of being a product of his love affair with a black prostitute?
Rove's a perv from the word go-go!
August 1, 2008 3:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Huh? I didn't know Karl Rove produced this ad.
August 2, 2008 2:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, if ABC is running headlines that say Obama admits he played the race card, the base may have to pause for a breath or two. Pretty funny stuff. I'm beginning to remember why 4 years ago McCain was arguably the best liked and respected politician in America. I know you don't agree, but I think McCain now has the surge, the low casualty count, offshore drilling and Obama's pomposity going for him.
August 1, 2008 3:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think this kind of voter is also mighty p.o.'d at being lied into the wrong war. Surge schmerge, surge IS Bush, they hate Bush and are tired of policing Iraq: "deceived," "disgusted," and "horrific" in describing Bush's performance.
Don't you think it mighty suspicious that Obama surrogate John Kerry is giving speeches on reframing anti-terror and then blogging about it right after to create more buzz, and even mentioning the Britney Spears ad in his post:
The successful counterattack with these swings is to hang Bush's Iraq war around McCain's neck. Kerry is helping out, perhaps with instructions straight from the campaign.
(Hey, is that more evidence that Josh Marshall doesn't read most TPMCafe posts, even when they are a request from Senators backing the presidential candidate to use his space to promote something that happens to mention an opposing campaign ad? :-))
August 1, 2008 4:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
p.s. Like I said on your other thread, I think if McCain keeps pounding on the surge issue, he will lose, labeling himself as Bush II. Actually, if it's true he has acquired more knowledgeable advice lately, I suspect he may stop pounding on it.
August 1, 2008 4:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't think so. The second big AP story today is about the casualty figures for July. And Bush has officially ended the surge and said troops can start rotating home. Offshore drilling is a winner. Nobody wants their taxes raised if it's not necessary or they don't get anything out of it. A long time ago I wondered about the wisdom of Obama staking his campaign on events he couldn't control. Without events and without gravitas, what is Obama going to do?
August 1, 2008 4:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Bush and McCain think they've already reduced troop numbers below the number before the surge, which they haven't, so I don't see why you should accept what they say on that matter.
August 1, 2008 7:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
SECOND TRY, my comment hopefully formatted correctly:
It's very clear to me as well that the ad is not about race, it's about the rock star thing. Not only that, I remembered reading that that has already been researched, they know it hurts Obama with swings, it's one of his weak points with swings.
I remembered that pollster analyst Charlie Cook in a July 12 article noted it:
In a more recent July 29 article, Cook discusses Obama's bounce from the overseas trip and says that:
This ad is very targeted and it has little to do with race. It's about preventing Obama looking presidential with swings, at a time when Obama has been working hard at doing that.
I am sort of worried by how well it's targeted, that McCain's campaign team may have been greatly improved in expertise.
And I agree with others on this thread that Josh Marshall is making some big gaffes with his comments on this ad, as to his reputation for being wise about political advertising. More and more seems to me like he is reading campaign talking points too much and then falling for them, rather than getting insider analysis of campaign moves. Either falling for them or purposely promoting them would be fine for a political activist, but not so much for reputation as a journalist on political horse race, it's not deconstructing the horse race for people accurately.
Of course I do suspect the Obama campaign knows all this too. Along with things like the overseas trip and the economic conference, which were obviously addressing the weakness, it may be why we are not seeing the extreme inspirationals in the speeches and pronouncements as in the primary? He is purposefully avoiding the rock star reception thing? Seeing how they balance this at the convention will be interesting, because they have to inspire the base there.
I think if Josh Marshall is getting the race thing from people connected with the Obama campaign, they are being disingenuous with him and he is falling for it, as Any race card stuff revs up the liberal blogosphere base.
August 1, 2008 3:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
I have a hunch that "Behold his mighty hand" is going to stick.
August 1, 2008 3:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Question: How do you give a Hillary supporter a hard-on?
Answer: Show him John McCain's surge.
Okay...
August 1, 2008 3:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
You see what you've done? Now I can't stand up.
August 1, 2008 5:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
Erh, who is this Josh Marshall?
Anybody significant we should know about?
August 1, 2008 3:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
There are certainly grounds for suspicion. Political ads are made by people whose job it is to think about subliminal messaging. There is no reason not to suspect that the ad-makers were conscious of any implications.
That said, even if subliminal racist messaging were intended, it's so tenuous that there's little to be gained by trumpeting it. The use of Britney and Paris in the ad is more noteworthy for its puerility than for its racism. No matter which way you slice it, the ad does represent the "substantive" campaign that McCain promised. That's what Marshall should focus on.
PS McCain should have used Beyonce and Tyra. Then you would have really seen the race cards flying.
August 1, 2008 3:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm telling you, Barack should just make the same add on John McCain, Using Carol Channing and Tallula Bankhead! (I think they're both dead, maybe not Carol. But a recent picture would be preferable!)
August 1, 2008 4:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
If they wanted to infer Barack was after white women, they would have used Obama Girl or Scarlett Johansson - white women who can be identified as "fawning" over Barack. That I would buy as a racist dogwhistle to beware that Barack's trying to take your womens (or white women or trying to take Barack).
They chose Britney and Paris Hilton because they are extremely popular celebrities despite not having an ounce of substance or meaning or artistry. Why are we talking about "race" when the no substance inference is clear as day and is more harmful to Barack's campaign?
August 1, 2008 4:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
I suspect Josh got a little desperate. And remember his readership. He just told them what he knows they're longing to hear.
We'll have to see if he can make The One into a racist attack.
I'm disappointed in Josh and the Obama campaign. They better hope Edmund Crankypants never goes after them.
August 1, 2008 5:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, well said.
They picked the most shallow and the most popularly ridiculed celebrities they could find, ones that have been punchlines of Leno and Letterman monologues for quite some time, the ones where you'd have to have been living in a cave for a couple of years to not get it.
Which makes me think: why can't so many liberals in the blogosphere get it, and think it's about race? The elitist "I don't don't watch TV and I am proud of that" contingent? :-) Your local supermarket cashier knows all about Britney Spears and Paris Hilton and can crack some jokes about them, and those standing in the line of actual supermarkets rather than Whole Foods can understand those jokes.
August 1, 2008 5:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Here's the difference I see. Obama goes to an upscale fundraiser and explains to the fat cats that the low income whites cling to their guns and religion because they're bitter.
McCain goes to an upscale fundraiser and lampoons the fat cats by reminding them that their mansions were paid for by tax breaks and other government subsidies.
Now you tell me. Everything considered, who is more ready to be President?
August 1, 2008 5:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
I really must ad that your clarification here really makes Josh Marshall's intepretation seem ever more clueless. For crying out loud, Britney Spears and Paris Hilton are the butt of so many jokes for so long. In widespread pop culture, they have actually been used for quite some time as examples of how celebrity turns people into trash. No god fearin' folks want to have anything to do with such trash, much less protect them from men or any color. Those two are fallen wimmin, the one does porn, the other forgets where she put her babies, you know what you do with those? :-)
August 1, 2008 5:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
You know what I think we're dealing with here? The same Progressives who got bent out of shape by Bill's blowjob. Amusing.
August 1, 2008 6:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Right, because it was worth it to cripple his presidency and Al Gore's chances of getting elected.
August 1, 2008 7:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Aha! Gotcha!
August 1, 2008 7:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Tee hee--Grandpa Hilton understands the ad perfectly and he no like Mr. McCain using Paris as an example of a trashy celeb:
Hiltons Support McCain, Reportedly Fuming Over "Celeb" Ad Featuring Paris
Sheesh talk about refusal to accept reality about the grandkid.
August 1, 2008 10:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Doncha love it? This is the same deal as calling their mansions "humble dwellings." And Cindy is as rich as most of them, so there isn't much they can do about him. He's a complete wiseass, but he's their wiseass.
August 1, 2008 10:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
As someone who doesn't watch TV and sometimes shops at Whole Foods, I resent the implication that I don't get Britney jokes.
Seriously though, the tv-disdaining-whole-foods-shopping-not-britney-joke-comprehending stereotype is as absurd as the the trailer-park-walmart-shopping-loves-britney-jokes stereotype.
August 1, 2008 5:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Who is Britney Spears and Paris Hilton? I don't watch TV and shop at whole foods.
August 1, 2008 9:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
elitist
August 1, 2008 10:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
Scarlett Johanssen? But she's not an airhead.
Why are so many people incapable of recognizing that there's more than one thing going on here? One wants to think that it's only Republicans who are incapable of entertaining more than one thought at a time, but alas, this problem may afflict some Dems as well.
Oh well. We all kid ourselves one way or another, I suppose.
August 1, 2008 5:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
When I was in Germany, my friends asked me why we're even bothering to have an election? One candidate is a lawyer, married to a lawyer. The other candidate is a war hero, married to a woman with big breasts and a brewery. How can there be a contest?
August 1, 2008 5:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think Josh is correct and glad to see him taking an early shot at exposing what will be a common theme of the Republicans. The Republicans have almost always attempted to use racial stereotypes to get votes where they could in national elections. And generally with good effect since we remain a country where the majority white population continues to harbor significant stereotypes about African Americans. And the more and more McCain can get white voters to view Obama as their stereotyped view of an African American male the more it will weaken Obama.
It's true the ad doesn't say Obama wants to sleep with white women. Just like its true the Willie Horton ads never said African Americans were dangerous. Instead those ads were entirely accurate, they just happened to choose an African American convict who just coincidentally played into white fears and stereotypes.
20 years ago there was a federal circuit judge who, in explaining that jurors had to be free to rely on circumstantial evidence in discrimination cases if our discrimination laws were going to mean anything, wisely noted that in this day and age racist rarely act openly. Instead, he noted, that "They, like the serpent in Eden, are more subtle."
So please don't be naive about the choice of adding the images of two young oversexed white women in the ad.
August 1, 2008 5:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
Now do you see that in the ad yourself, or are you speculating that there are some people out there who might see that in the ad? If you see it yourself, we need to get to the bottom of your problem.
August 1, 2008 6:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
I fear for that kitten. Karl Rove eats kittens for breakfast.
August 1, 2008 9:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Marshall did use arguments:Obama as a flashy entertainer, the guy reaching above his station, the guy who ends up in video montages with Paris Hilton and Britney Spears.
And let's not forget that sports and entertainment are the two "acceptable" outlets for black men. Arguing that there isn't a racial overtone of a black man superimposed on pictures of famous oversexualized young white women can only be done with a straight face if you've never watched TV.
August 1, 2008 6:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think you're making a great point, in a vacuum.
But the GOP used this line of attack against Harold Ford in the Tennessee Senate race in 2006. Where you see Josh reaching for an interpretation, I see him recognizing the subtleties of the GOP attack. It'd be the height of paranoia, had it not happened before.
August 1, 2008 6:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
August 2, 2008 2:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Inventing this kind of BS worked against Hillary Clinton, because virtually everyone in the media, left, center and right, hated her, and refused to ask the likes of Marshall to lay out the premises behind their arguments.
Since when is Josh Marshall Matt Drudge? Josh may have been wrong about McCain dredging up the Harold Ford ad but I'm sure McCain won't mind if voters makes that connection.
And I don't remember Hillary's campaign saying Obama is comparable to Britney Spears. They did try to paint him as inexperienced, most memorably in Hillary's own bitter "he made a nice speech" comment. Didn't work then and it won't work now.
August 1, 2008 6:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
"But isn't the McCain camp mockingly comparing Obama to the likes of Britney Spears, rather than implying that he likes to hang with starlets?"
Perez-dude: you are so intelligent that you completely fail to realize that Rove-ian kinetics has managed to successfully accomplish and imply such seemingly opposite ideas for a long time now.
A huge segment of the popular mindset is now way past become silly putty. Repugnants know that quite well.
August 1, 2008 6:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hey folks, there are too many way-intelligent people hanging on this thread. That aside, the subject may become the most germane of the entire campaign, in retrospect.
August 1, 2008 6:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
Somebody better tell Obama quick that the big white house up there in the distance, the one he's had his eye on but which now has ceremonial soldiers in blue and gray all around, is not his; it belongs to Mclean.
August 1, 2008 7:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Weve arrived at the Swift-point of '08. The only question now is if Obama will go to the Grand Canyon and announce that he too would probably have invaded Iraq. I haven't read Chait's latest as yet, but I'm smelling Dukakis all over the place.
August 1, 2008 7:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
In response to this post and to a ton of the commenters, I have to say I'm kind of confused by your inability to see Josh's point and weirded out by people confidently saying he's so off-base.
How can you live in America, be a Democrat, be media savvy, know about the history of GOP messaging, and NOT SEE THIS? It's pretty obvious that's a secondary message of the ad. By the way, someone upthread was arguing that it's about one thing and not the other. I feel it's too simple to point out, but ads have multiple, layered messages. It's how they're designed. Personally, I think this ad's absolutely horrible and people are giving it way too much credit.
But back to my main point. I've seen hysterical posting about "Obama playing the race card" and I've been trying to understand what the hell that even means. I think I've boiled it down to the fact that people think that once anyone even TALKS about race or racism apparently that's "playing the race card" which is the worst thing on earth.
It's astounding to me to see Democrats imply that there's no such thing as racism and the GOP won't resort to those kinds of messages. I don't get where it comes from but it just seems really weird, naive, and hard to understand.
August 1, 2008 7:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
There's another one arguing that since it's happened before to other candidates, then it must be happening in this particular ad against Obama.
No.
That would mean that ALL GOP ads will always be racist in nature, because, well, it happened before, you see?
And don't you know that McCain has rejected attempts of racism against Obama before? Why don't you say that?
August 2, 2008 2:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sure, and there was nothing racist about the Harold Ford ad with the white Playboy Playmate. "Call me, Harold!"
August 1, 2008 8:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ford married a white woman, so is that racist?
August 1, 2008 8:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
The Ford ad was very different than the "celeb" ad. The Ford ad had a white girl winking and flirtaciously telling Harold Ford, "Harold, call me". Anyone with an IQ of 1 could notice that was an attempt to stoke racial animosities.
But none of that happens in the "celeb" ad, and that's why race-baiters are struggling so much to find an explanation as to how it's racist.
August 2, 2008 2:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
Nah, as I said upthread, I think that this is a much more effective version of Call Me.
What you want to do, if you're in the business of symbolic racism, is prime people's implicit biases without their more explicit good intentions catching on. A study released in 2007 took data from a widely administered study called the Implicit Association Test, which seeks to determine the level of unconscious racial bias, and compared people's explicit avowals about racial equity (42% of respondents indicated feeling no favoritism towards any particular group) with the results of implicit tests (only 18% had genuinely neutral implicit associations).
The game is in this gap. If you can tap into racial hostility or anxieties that exist under the surface, and coexist with our more considered egalitarianism, you can watch your opponents poll numbers drop steadily.
If you can do it with as much deniability as there is with "Celeb," you get the added bonus of calling your opponent cynical or paranoid.
August 4, 2008 11:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
I hardly know where to start. Reverse order? Playing the race card in this case means claiming that your opponent is using your race against you. That's Obama saying they are going to try to scare you about me because I don't look like those white Presidents. He's admitted he did that.
Nobody is saying that there is not racism or that Republicans don't use race. We're just saying that in this case Josh is wrong and, oh by the way, Obama has lost his cred on the subject. Face it. You're not the general electorate. They don't think the way you think. What they see now is Obama playing the victim -- just like who? Jesse Jackson? Why urge him on?
August 1, 2008 8:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
If there is anything this thread has shown me it is that Quinn, Esquire (I guess he is a lawyer, or pretends to be) is not at all who I thought he was. He has morphed into one of Billy's or perhaps Gasket's Sybil-like personas--in the end the truth emerges. The plot thickens and conversing on TPM becomes even less desirable for those looking for an honest discussion. It's like watching a WWE match. Who is Jake the Snake? So much pretentiousness, and all so very precious and clever. OK, boys, time to pile on!!! Like an English schoolboys rugby match!
August 1, 2008 8:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
?
Kate. Reread. I made 3 comments - 2 of them arguing with Gasket about non-substantive issues. The other one expressing my irritation with that "Possumus" Seal. And this makes me someone's "persona?" On the issue being discussed, I actually think the Obama campaign is not handling it well. I've been suggesting they use more humour - on that "Seal" for instance - for quite some time. I also think they need to respond a less cautious way than they have to date. This is "piling on?"
The "esq" by the way, is a joke on eskimo/esquimeaux. I'm not a lawyer, and would never (stoop) to pretend to be.
Now. If you've re-scanned all the comments above, and still stand by your comment, then fine. Otherwise, I believe you've gotten me mixed up with someone else.
August 1, 2008 9:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Little does KateO know I was about to kick your ass upthread, quinn.
(joke)
August 1, 2008 9:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
OK, Quinn, my deepest apologies. You are sometimes too clever, halved. As my dear departed dad would say, if you had half a brain, you'd be an idiot. Just joking. I am a literalist, and used to Irish (not English) humor, and the cynical banter can be discouraging, because it becomes too private amongst too few. Just a while back I praised you as the only person who could take on BG. Then I began to think, what if he IS BG? OMG. I am only begging for some forthright discussion without the chest thumping. I still think you are one of the most provocative posters here--I just began to worry about you, and your soul.
August 1, 2008 9:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Jesus Christ. I'm not Billy and I'm not quinn, although I like them both. I'm not into multiple identities; I don't have the time to do that nor do I have the interest in doing that. I'm my own cranky-ass self. Count your blessings there's only one of me.
August 1, 2008 9:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
Gasket, counting my blessings as I type!
August 1, 2008 9:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
There ya go! So let's get back to worrying about Obama's soul. ;-)
August 1, 2008 9:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
At least he has one. Tell me with a straight face that McCain does. Go ahead, tell me!
August 1, 2008 9:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't even like John McCain, he creeps me out. But that doesn't mean I agree with Josh Marshall's overwrought interpretation of one McCain ad.
August 1, 2008 10:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, but your comment on another thread suggests that you would take great pleasure if Obama lost, so we could suffer though 4 years of McCain and your girl could run in 2012. Talk about spiteful! I hope you don't have children. God help them. Anything to claim victory, no matter what the cost, right? Soldiers killed, homeless created, jobs lost. If that can vindicate your support of Hillary, then it's all worth it, right? Sad sad sad.
August 1, 2008 10:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Maybe you haven't noticed, but ad hominems are out around here right now. And maybe you haven't noticed that a couple of your little friends are gone for good. They won't be coming back. You might want to reconsider the personal attacks.
August 1, 2008 10:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry, but I just had a coughing fit. Billy lecturing me on ad hominem attacks??? Did someone slip me a tab of Window Pane? Who are my little friends? I really have no idea what you are talking about. You sound paranoid. I hope I've misunderstood, or you have.
August 1, 2008 10:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm cluing you in. That stuff is out around here. Haven't you noticed? New rules. No personal attacks. No stalking. No trashing threads. Look around you. Civil discourse now. Like in a cafe. But you do what you want.
August 1, 2008 10:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, if you are honestly doing me a favor, I thank you. But, I'm still clueless and did not realize I was trashing anyone. Just responding to comments.
August 1, 2008 11:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
You seem to be saying that I make jokes about rape. I don't recall doing that.
August 1, 2008 11:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Kate. Billy actually IS doing you a favor. Within the last week, certain people got banned from the site for their behaviour. In addition, an official policy against having "multiple" avatars was posted, and that meant a large number of posters you might expect to see are also gone. And thirdly, some people have simply left of their own accord. There was a rather major - and heated - debate a while back on all these issues, actually. I disagreed with the policy, and was sad over some of the bannings & leavings, but I think you can see now why your references to BG, gasket & myself perhaps being the same person comes at a rather touchy time. In addition, people are ALSO working to bring down some of the "heat" in the discussions - a few people got hurt a while back, so everyone's bringing it back a notch. Whether this is right or wrong or lasts, who knows - but I hope you understand why your comments down here have triggered some reaction....
August 1, 2008 11:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm out of here. Have a good one. I hope. As far as I know. Fairly confident. OMG. See you Monday.
August 1, 2008 11:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yep. Back atcha. Just don't go into any bars with economists.
August 1, 2008 11:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Glad I missed all this last night.
August 2, 2008 9:22 AM | Reply | Permalink
Quinn, I appreciate the warning. I don't have the time to follow the drama here. I just recalled a certain someone just a few days ago telling someone to stick their head up their ass, so I fail to see how people are trying to "bring down the heat." Maybe you are, but others don't seem to be doing that. In an effort at self policing, then everyone should be policed equally. If I am going to get lectured, then so should others. The rules are getting too selective and arbitrary here. I'll just stay away.
August 2, 2008 9:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
Kate.
(1) Billy is the savage, soul-less one. Seems to be "pro-sex."
(2) Gasket.... savage, but soul-ful. Self-described "cranky-ass."
(3) Me? I'm well-dressed. Tendency to apologize & be overly polite 5 or 10 times a day. It's a Canadian thing. Stand on any street-corner here & you'll hear the gentle murmur of "Oh! Sorry.... My fault... Apologies, I appear to have impeded your progress." Billy & Gasket appear to be sliiiightly less Canadian. And then, from time to time, I revert. And "go hockey." i.e. Out of my mind, violent. So, you were close with the rugby analogy. Just add skates.
That, plus they're working hard to copy my style - the endlessly long comments... completely irrelevant references to huskies, the farm & the Thames... and lots of swearing. They're just not very good at it yet, so give 'em time. But no, none of us is each other. And gasket tends to get cranky on me because I'm cuter. A lot.
August 1, 2008 9:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well Gasket won't reveal himself, so I will take your word. But the sinus thing is a little offputting, especially since I had to have my nose broken a few years ago to straighten my deviated septum. Hope you are cuter on the exterior. I worked closely with a Canadian for several years in DC and while he was very polite I constantly reminded him that it was great that Canada was pacifist, but they couldn't be that way without the U.S. military just below them watching their borders. As for hockey, I am a Flyers fan. Cross check! Yes, Billy has sex issues. Nothing wrong with being pro-sex unless you use it as a weapon.
I promise not to confuse you with those guys again. Sorry.
August 1, 2008 9:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
Just two quick reminders. 1- Everybody is very thankful for the US's military commitment to our mutual defence. But note that Canada is not pacifist. We started in on WW2 in 1939. The US not until 2 years later. We lost a greater share of our people than the US. In addition, we're in Afghanistan today - and losing more. In short, Canadians are not pacifists, whether you see that as right or wrong. and 2- Your support for the Flyers somewhat undermines your statements regarding the need for civilized discussion. you DO know the Flyers are regarded, universally, as having taken the world's most violent sport, and raised it to an entirely new level? As in, the Broad Street Bullies? Led by gentlemen such as Dave 'The Hammer' Shultz? I suspect - as a Flyers fan - you understand violence better than most. ;-)
August 1, 2008 10:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, that's not the story my Canadian friend gave me--who constantly reminded me how militaristic we Americans were. The Hammer was an early hero of mine, as was Bobby Clarke and Bernie Parent. I might add that the Islanders were just as bad AND most of the players in the NHL are Canadians. Hah!
August 1, 2008 10:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
You see how it goes, quinn. Being pro sex is having sex issues. Using it as a weapon. Which I can do of course, being brutally handsome and all. But don't you worry none. I've got my eye on the guy noticed the monument in the background.
August 1, 2008 10:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
No, using sex as a weapon is the problem. As I said, nothing wrong with being pro sex. It's when sex becomes an act of aggression that I have a problem. I know you make jokes about it, but you have to recognize the sensitivity, especially having been an alleged supporter of Hillary. Can't have it both ways.
August 1, 2008 10:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
You mystify me. Sex as aggression? Would you give me an example?
August 1, 2008 10:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
Rape.
August 1, 2008 10:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
How does that apply to me?
August 1, 2008 10:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
It doesn't, I hope. Quinn said you were "pro sex." I replied "Yes, Billy has sex issues. Nothing wrong with being pro-sex unless you use it as a weapon." In several recent posts you suggested that people needed to get laid. Thus, I said you had "sex issues" as you implied that having sex was a problem solver for some who couldn't laugh at what you thought was funny. Read the thread. You read more into it than I implied. I am fairly confident that you are not a rapist, and never suggested that. I believe you have tried to set a trap for me and I'm not sure why, but I take that as an act of aggression.
August 1, 2008 11:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
The comment about getting laid was related to research that shows that people deprived of sex tend to interpret images sexually more than people who are having regular sex. So it was directed at the fact that some people are drawing sexual connotations from the celebrity ad and some aren't. The inference is that people who are seeing sex in the ad are having less sex than the people who aren't. Thus, the recommendation to get laid so you won't be seeing sexual images and memes where there aren't any. Has nothing to do with laughing at what I think is funny. It's all about the meaning of the ad.
August 1, 2008 11:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't believe that there was a racist message attacked to the ad in question at the threshold, but I don't believe that's the key point. I have no doubt whatsoever that the McCain campaign is absolutely thrilled that the commercial is the product of this much discussion, and are even more tickled by the opportunities they now have to express utter outrage and challenge the notion that the campaign--pure as the driven snow--would ever use the race card. In short, the McCain camp, in raw political terms, is absolutely thrilled by the kind of debate going on in this thread. I feel as if we are stepping into the same trap we've stepped into almost every presidential election cycle since 1968. If this a sign of things to come in September, I feel (for the first time since early June) that Obama could actually blow this thing.
August 1, 2008 9:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
But it sounds from your comment that WE could blow it, not him. The man is half Black--how can he pretend otherwise? This is a racist country. If McCain exploits racism, how is that Obama's fault? Isn't that like telling the rape victim her skirt was too short?
August 1, 2008 9:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't think so, Bruce. I hear they call McCain the cadaver over at Free Republic. But I'm amazed at the inability of the Obama campaign to take McCain's measure.
If I were doing it, I'd make the natural connection to the Bushes. And I'd use two visuals.
McCain and GW when McCain is sniffing GW's armpit.
McCain and GHW when they are tottering across the tarmac together in Houston.
Those two images. Words don't matter. Over and over.
See if McCain thinks that is fun.
August 1, 2008 10:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Gotta agree with you there Billy, as painful as that might be for you, and me.
August 1, 2008 10:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
This was just two years ago, and was a product of the RNC for the Tennessee Senate race.
An attack ad against Senate candidate Harold Ford, a man of mixed race. Seems he had attended a Superbowl Party hosted by Hugh Hefner.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vZF5ZTu2Go
Black Man .... Beautiful young blonde woman.
August 1, 2008 9:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
KateO said:
Nonsense. For whatever reason, your reading comprehension leaves something to be desired, KateO. And it appears you're the only one who misread me in that comment thread.
However, even if I were a Republican or supported McCain, I have a right to speak. Here at TPM especially, but also anywhere in this country.
So this diatribe of yours
is not only unwarranted in this thread, but unconnected to anything I have ever said on these boards. I don't understand where you are coming from that you characterize people as if they are larger-than-life fictional villains, but I think you need to get a grip or get some therapy. I have never enjoyed your misogynistic comments about Hillary (especially coming from a woman), and I'd appreciate it if you'd simply refrain from addressing me in the future. Thanks.
August 2, 2008 10:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
Actually I was talking to Lalo on that thread and you butted in, so practice what you preach.
I won't be a problem anymore, promise. You guys are slowing getting rid of people you don't like. Soon you will be talking to each other, a giant circle jerk. Last word, you can dish it out but you can't take it. Why so thin skinned?
August 2, 2008 11:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
Just be civil, stop attacking people, stay on topic, and you can hang around. Accuse people of making jokes about rape and you'll wear out your welcome. Where have we heard "as far as I know before?" Amusing.
August 2, 2008 6:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Nah, I've had enough. You guys win, you can own the site. Funny that you of all people would tell me to be civil and stop attacking people. But really, I've had enough with the boys' rules here. There's a double standard and I have to deal with that enough in real life (and as a supposed Clinton supporter you oughta understand that). I'm outta here, never to return. I won't post a goodbye blog. Fitting that I will just tell you, who has been the most adversarial to me of anyone on this site. So, bye, Billy, have a good and happy life.
August 2, 2008 6:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm sure you'll be back and that you'll follow my advice. And you should pass the advice on to your friend, pussy hare. I notice he's still running into threads, shouting insults and running out again.
August 3, 2008 10:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
It's not blatant at all. So far, the only things mentioned by race-baiters is that Paris and Britnay and white, that Paris has been promiscuous (even though they lie about Britnay being known for being promiscuous), and the fact that the pictures were "juxtaposed" which is a cute way to say the pictures of Paris and Britnay were followed by the picture of Obama.
They conveniently ignore that the narrator explicitly said Obama drew large crowds and reporter attention, much like Britnay and Paris, and that was the angle being exploited.
August 2, 2008 2:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
So would you say that nobody is going to make a racially-charged association watching this ad? I mean, we can agree that there is a well of ugly notions in American history about black male sexuality and white women, right? This ad primes none of those? For anybody?
I think it's a neat piece of dirty work in that the ad works well on the surface, and so kicks off the accusations that it works at a deeper level as well. That's how the dog whistle sounds.
August 4, 2008 11:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
"kicks off," i.e. "shrugs off."
I do wish we had some features back on the cafe...
August 4, 2008 11:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
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