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Big Brother for President!

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I won't call Barrack Obama a flip-flopper. It is fashionable now to
attack a candidate as a flip-flopper if it can be shown that he has
changed his position over time. It is however entirely reasonable to
change one's opinion as time passes and situations change. What is not
reasonable or acceptable is to lie about one's positions, to pretend
that they were right when it is documented that they were wrong. Here
is a quote from Obama, made at the start of the surge:

"I
am not persuaded that 20,000 additional troops in Iraq is going to
solve the sectarian violence there," the Illinois senator said that
night, a month before announcing his presidential bid. "In fact, I
think it will do the reverse."

Very clearly he was opposed to
the surge, he voted against it, he predicted it would make matters
worse. Now here is a more recent quote:

  "Now, I had no doubt
-- and I said at the time, when I opposed the surge, that given how
wonderfully our troops perform, if we place 30,000 more troops in
there, then we would see an improvement in the security situation and
we would see a reduction in the violence."

Notice he now claims
to have known all along the surge would reduce violence, yet he voted
against it. Was he opposed to reducing the violence? Why did he then
predict publicly that it would make things worse if he knew it would
work? He claims to have said at the time that it would improve the
security situation there, yet publicly he said the opposite. This is
not a case of flip-flopping, it is a case of lying. As evidence mounts
that the situation has improved dramatically, Obama wants to rewrite
history, to unsay the things he said. This is why his team is scrubbing
his web site to correct the past. Unfortunately for them this is not
Oceania, Obama is not big brother, and we know the truth.


Comments (42)

So Obama was right about the war and wrong about the immediate effects of increasing troops. I am shocked.

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No, it is more than that. First he was wrong about the war when he stated that it could not be won, and in fact was lost. Regarding his statements on the surge, it not just that he was wrong, but that he is saying now that he said something entirely different than what he said. It's his version of Bosnian sniper fire. His comments are documented, and they are in direct conflict with each other.

Surely a waste of time but you've sucked me in.

After the last two terms there is no way I will reward the GOP by voting for any candidate they offered.

And being right on the war is not about whether we could overwhelm Saddam's regular army. That was never in doubt. The question was why should we attack Iraq? That has not been satisfactorily answered, because there is no answer.

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Voting arbitrarily for one party without evaluating the candidates is pretty mindless, there are a large range of ideas represented by people in either party. Webb of Va was a republican, so you would hate him, except now he is a democrat so you love him. Lieberman was a democrat so he was great, now he in an independent and no good. Make sense?

Regarding the war, we invaded Iraq for a variety of reasons. He was a ruthless dictator. He developed chem and bio weapons. He was seeking nuclear weapons. He had connections to terror groups. He was in violation of the 91 cease fire. He had invaded all his neighbors. He attempted to assassinate a US president. After 9/11 he was judged to be a serious threat.

Sen. Barack Obama said it was "fair" to notice that he did not anticipate that the surge of U.S. troops into Iraq would be coincident with the so-called Sunni Awakening and the decisions of Shia militias to reduce their footprints, the combination of which led to measurable declines in violence. In an interview with ABC's Terry Moran, Obama said that he "did not anticipate, and I think that this is a fair characterization, the convergence of not only the surge but the Sunni awakening in which a whole host of Sunni tribal leaders decided that they had had enough with Al Qaeda, in the Shii’a community the militias standing down to some degrees. So what you had is a combination of political factors inside of Iraq that then came right at the same time as terrific work by our troops. Had those political factors not occurred, I think that my assessment would have been correct."
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That only points to more lies by Obama,because in that quote he is saying that the surge worked because of other factors, and in his earlier quote he attributes it the the 'wonderful' performance of our troops. It also does not address the fact that he did not simply admit he was wrong about the surge, he claimed he knew it would work all along, when he clearly said the opposite. He lied, there is no other spin to this.

political factors inside of Iraq that then came right at the same time as terrific work by our troops

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"HAD THOSE POLITICAL FACTORS NOT OCCURRED"
giving credit for the surge to the political factors. It still does not change the lies in his statement where he said he knew and said the surge would work. Clearly a lie.

First, learn to spell the name.

Second, now that McCain is flipping and flopping like a dying fish, wingnuts don't want to hear the term they invented.

Third, we know that Big Brother is the one we're trying to get out of office.

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First, in a few months it wont matter how to spell the name of another forgotten failed democrat candidate. Second, Obama flips on other issues all the time, but that or any flips by McCain does not change the fact that he is lying here.

You do realized that the quote you attribute to now comes form the January NH debates! So lets be a little honest yourself and not claim this is a recent quote. In political half life this is ancient history. You do realize that now means somewhere in the last 24 to 48 hours not 7 months ago. Next why not put up the full quote instead of editing down to suit your's and McCain's position.

Now, I had no doubt -- and I said at the time, when I opposed the surge, that given how wonderfully our troops perform, if we place 30,000 more troops in there, then we would see an improvement in the security situation and we would see a reduction in the violence. But understand, we started in 2006 with intolerable levels of violence and a dysfunctional government. We saw a spike in the violence, the surge reduced that violence, and we now are, two years later, back where we started two years ago. We have gone full circle at enormous cost to the American people.
NYTimes January 2008

In January of this year this is reasonably correct statement in terms of violence levels.

This seems to be the source of the first quote:

(Larry) KING: Let's go to Capitol Hill, the Russell Rotunda and Senator Barack Obama, Democrat of Illinois, member of Foreign Relations Committee, Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs.

What did you think?

SEN. BARACK OBAMA, (D) ILLINOIS: Well, let me say there was one area where I completely agree with the president. And that is that American troops have done everything that's been asked of them. They have done an outstanding job. And I don't doubt the president's sincerity in thinking that this third or fourth approach to the problem is the right one.

But I did not see anything in the speech or anything in the run- up to the speech that provides evidence that an additional 15,000 to 20,000 more U.S. troops is going to make a significant dent in the sectarian violence that's taking place there.

And I didn't see any political strategy in the president's remarks to get Shia and Sunni to arrive at the sort of political accommodation that I think will ultimately be necessary.

The last point I make, Larry: the one bit of leverage we have over the Iraqis at this stage are troop deployments. And there have to be some consequences for their failure to arrive at a political accommodation by actually escalating this war as opposed to initiating a phased withdrawal. I think the president is taking away whatever leverage we have.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0701/10/lkl.01.html

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You can google it, he said that or something similar on several occasions. The point is that he refuses to admit he was wrong on the surge and resorts to lying about what his position was. He can claim he was wrong for a variety of reasons, but he can't claim he said it would work when clearly he did not.

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Nothing is changed by the quote, taken in full or not. It does not change the fact that he said at one point that the surge would not work, and then later said that he always said it would. It was a lie, it doesn't matter if it was a lie from January or yesterday, it was a lie. Obama maintains that he has the better judgment, but it is clear he was wrong about the surge, and instead of admitting that, he gives credit to other factors and claims he knew it would work all along.

Here's the context that has been provided:

Initially, he said that the troops were great, working hard, but that without Sunnis and Shiites helping out, the surge is doomed to fail.

Later, he said that the troops were great, working hard, and that thanks to changes with regard to the Sunnis and Shiites, much progress has been made with the surge.

Oh, yeah. That's a huge change there. Just to be clear, he's not saying the troops were unnecessary. I think that point has been lost on you. They were a necessary, but not sufficient, requisite. (As an engineer, I trust you understand the distinction I'm making there.)

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Nice try at spin Ben, but it doesn't work. Initially he said it was going to fail. Then he said it succeeded because of the unforeseen efforts of the Sunnis. Then he said it succeeded and he knew all along that it would and said so. You keep ignoring the part where he lied about his previous statements.

No, you keep changing the words to make it sound like lying.

Right, he said it would fail, explicitly because he didn't think the Sunnis and Shiites would do their part. They surprised him, pleasantly.

His initial statement made it clear that he thought the surge would work if the Sunnis and Shiites did their part, so it's not a lie to say that he thought the surge would work if the Sunnis and Shiites did their part. It's just that he didn't think the Sunnis and Shiites would do their part. So, it was a lack of faith in the Muslims and not our troops that caused him to doubt the surge.

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Sorry, reply to you misdirected. It's at the bottom.

Nice work. Sen. Obama clearly lied. A minor mischaracterization of his earlier comment, but a lie none the less.

But I think you are winning a tactical victory at the risk of strategic catastrophe. Sen. McCain has made a habit of this kind of behavior, and making a campaign issue out of it is probably not in the interest of your candidate.

For example, in 2005, the Senator said, “I’m going to be honest: I know a lot less about economics than I do about military and foreign policy issues. I still need to be educated.” In 2007, the Senator said, "The issue of economics is not something I’ve understood as well as I should.”

But just weeks ago, when an interviewer started a question with this: "You have admitted that you are not exactly the expert when it comes to the economy and many have said that... " Sen. McCain barked back, "I have not. I have not. Actually, I have not."

Even better, this all happened over a period of just a couple of days in March, 2007:

Sen. McCain said the "surge was going so well, “General Petraeus goes out there almost every day in an unarmed humvee.” Then he said on the radio that there “are neighborhoods in Baghdad where you and I could walk through those neighborhoods, today.”

When the generals in Iraq called him on his, shall we say "agricultural by-product,"
He simply denied it: “Well, I’m not saying they could go without protection. The President goes around America with protection. So, certainly I didn’t say that.”

Do these more important lies disqualify Sen. McCain for the presidency?

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Well I would have to see more of the context of what McCain meant on economics, and the statement about safety in Iraq was not a lie, clearly it is improving dramatically and people do operate there more freely than in the past. It is misleading to imply that Petraeus cruises around with no protection of course. His humvee may be unarmed but it is not alone. My point is not if politicians flip flop or change their views, it is that Obama makes his judgment the central point for electing him (because he lacks experience), and this example showed he (1) had poor judgment regarding the surge, and (2) lied about it.

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I also want to clarify that failing to remember (or even lying) about if you said you knew anything about economics (if that is what would be revealed from a look at the full exchange) when your economics experience is not the central point in your campaign is entirely different from lying about an issue relating to your judgment when that is the central point of your campaign. So I don't consider the McCain examples to be more serious than Obama's.

"Uhh, homina, homina, homina..."

I'm sure I am misunderstanding you. You seem to be saying that lies are permissible providing that they are about issues that are not central to the candidate's campaign. Is that correct?

Further, you seem to be saying that the security situation in Iraq is not central to Sen. McCain's campaign. Is that also correct?

Then I suppose Sen. McCain, who has directly contradicted himself several times, is to be disqualified as a presidential candidate.

For whom do you plan to vote?

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I'm saying lies are bad. I'm saying some of what you are calling McCain's lies are not lies, and some I haven't seen enough to know. I do know Obama lied, and proved it, and his lies are about his judgment. He lied to make his judgment look correct when it was not, and his judgment is his central campaign point.

I'm sorry, but your lack of consistency is simply not credible. Which of Sen. McCain's lies was not a lie, and how is it possible not to know about the other?

Do you plan to continue this practice of not debating in good faith? I just need to know so that I can decide whether to engage an opponent or ignore a partisan.

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I didn't consider the statement about walking around Baghdad a lie, or that Petraeus drives an unarmed Humvee a lie. Many times VIP cars are unarmed, that doesn't mean they travel alone unarmed. The statement about not being an economic expert, I can't tell if it cut off what McCain was trying to say, since it ended abruptly, so I don't know if there was more context to it. I did see the context around Obama's quotes and it is clearly a lie to say that he said initially that the surge would work to reduce violence (it would also be pretty stupid to say 'this will reduce violence so I am voting against it')

I see. Well, enjoy your time here. I know I will.

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Hope you have a good day. I will enjoy debating you in the future, maybe someday you will come to see the error of your ways! :)

I'm afraid you misunderstand this as well. You will not have that pleasure, nor will I. I shall enjoy watching you, though, as you continue to perform as you have in this thread.

Amusement is not easy to come by in a world dominated by Conservatives.

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Sorry that your sarcasm was unappreciated, it is difficult to tell sometimes, so I made the mistake of thinking that you were a civil, thinking, liberal interested in discourse. I should have known better, but I give people the benefit of the doubt. Adios.

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And I wold not say a direct contradiction qualifies as a minor mis-characterization!

Reply mis-placed here.

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If the surge has worked, then why does McCain want to stay in Iraq for up to a hundred years.

We had no business invading and taking over the country in the first place. It was all based on a pack of Chicken Hawk Neo-Con lies.

The surge was supposed to tamp down the carnage that Bush/McCain had triggered with their original Iraq lunacy.

Now those jerks are trying to take credit for reducing the inferno that they lit the match to.

If the surge has worked, then we can leave and let Iraqis run their own country. If we can not leave, then that is an admission by the Bush/McCain Arsonists that the inferno that they started is still burning.

Which is it; have the arsonists put out the inferno they started, and we can let our fire fighters leave the scene, or not?

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McCain wants to stay in Iraq for as long as the gov't there wants us to stay, his 100 year comment was prefaced by "as long as US troops are not being harmed" and was a comparison to troops in Germany or Japan.

As to if we had any business invading, since Sadaam was in violation of the 91 cease fire, and was a ruthless thug who killed hundreds of thousands, we certainly were in the right for removing him. The world is better without him in charge of Iraq, and so is Iraq.

As far as the surge, it has worked. Things are improving rapidly, the surge troops are gone, and soon it will be possible to remove most of the remaining forces. Iraq still has no air force and needs CCC assistance, along with more training, so all troops can't leave yet.

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None of which answers the question of why the Neo-Con Chicken Hawks made up a pack of lies in order to take over Iraq. The USA is not the ruler of the world.

All your crap about going to stop Saddam from killing his own people is not fooling anyone. You do not even believe your own bullshit on that.

What is happening in the Darfur region of Sudan proves that Bush/McCain do not give a rat's arse about stopping ongoing genocides. The world knows that they are just a bunching of lying thugs, and that is why the tinpot junta of Burma could tell them to get bent, and the US Flotilla turned tail and left up to a million starving people to their fate.

Cut the crap. The Republicans lied us into Iraq, made a complete shambles of the place, and no matter when we leave it, Iraq will still be a mess.

You guys are just like those drunken fools who wreck their cars, and then try to get away with claiming that they had nothing to do with it.

You broke Iraq, and you have broken America, The evidence is clear. Your crowd are the biggest bunch of incompetents that the modern world has ever seen. You could not handle the flooding of New Orleans. You still have not restored it, but you want us to believe that you can run the world.

Republicans are, and always have been the Reverse Robin Hood party. They always rob the poor to give to the super wealthy.

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You complain the US is not the ruler of the world, then complain when we don't intervene in Darfur, or Rwanda (remember that) or Burma, and complain when we do in Bosnia or Iraq. I support overthrowing tyrants, but there are limitations to what can be done. I would smoke Mugabe and Castro and Chavez, but Burma is too close to China. I won't end the world for them.

Having been through a hurricane I can tell you it takes a lot longer to rebuild than people think, and I live in a small town. NO is a large city, rebuilding an entire city is an enormous task. as far as Republicans being to blame, it was a democrat governor and a democrat mayor in charge. It was their plan to use the superdome and not equip it with supplies. It was their plan to not evac using the school buses. Stop blaming Bush for everything.

As far as robing from the poor, only a liberal could define not giving to someone as robbing from them.

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I did not complain about not intervening. I complained about your bullshit about the reason why we were lied into Iraq. I used the Darfur example, as clear proof that Bush/McCain could care less about stopping regimes from killing their own people, and therefore they did not give a rat's arse about stopping Saddam from doing so.

You can come up with all the retroactive claims about going to stop Saddam from killing Iraqis but that was not the case that was made by the Bush/McCain gang before the invasion. It was all lies about WMD. Powell put on his UN dog an pony show, and talked up all kinds of nonsense, including the aluminum tubes bullshit.

You can not walk away from your clear record of throwing WMD "Curveballs" at us, to justify the invasion.

As for stopping Saddam from killing his own people; Bush One did the exact opposite; he talked the Shiites into rebelling and then gave Saddam the green light to slaughter them.

Same goes for the WMD nonsense. It was Rumsfeld/Cheney et al, that provided Saddam with the chemical and biological starter kits, when he was at war with Iran. You Republicans do not give a shit about how many people Saddam slaughtered. You stood by when he gassed the Kurds. You are just trying to bullshit your way out of having been caught in your WMD lies.

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Here's Ben's version ->

Right, he said it would fail, explicitly because he didn't think the Sunnis and Shiites would do their part. They surprised him, pleasantly.

Here's Obama as quoted from AP =>
"I am not persuaded that 20,000 additional troops in Iraq is going to solve the sectarian violence there," the Illinois senator said that
night, a month before announcing his presidential bid. "In fact, I think it will do the reverse."

Nothing about Sunnis and Shia, just that it will fail

More from Ben ->

His initial statement made it clear that he thought the surge would work if the Sunnis and Shiites did their part, so it's not a lie to say that he thought the surge would work if the Sunnis and Shiites did their part.

Clearly just invented by my friend Ben. Re-read the quote from Obama. Now the second quote:

"Now, I had no doubt -- and I said at the time, when I opposed the surge, that given how
wonderfully our troops perform, if we place 30,000 more troops in there, then we would see an improvement in the security situation and
we would see a reduction in the violence."

Notice the blatant lie "I said it at the time"
Re-read the first quote, is that what he said? NO.

Admit it, he lied. BTW, read his latest from Iraq, it's full of more flips that I will write about tomorrow.

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I did not complain about not intervening. I complained about your bullshit about the reason why we were lied into Iraq. I used the Darfur example, as clear proof that Bush/McCain could care less about stopping regimes from killing their own people, and therefore they did not give a rat's arse about stopping Saddam from doing so.

You can come up with all the retroactive claims about going to stop Saddam from killing Iraqis but that was not the case that was made by the Bush/McCain gang before the invasion. It was all lies about WMD. Powell put on his UN dog an pony show, and talked up all kinds of nonsense, including the aluminum tubes bullshit.

You can not walk away from your clear record of throwing WMD "Curveballs" at us, to justify the invasion.

As for stopping Saddam from killing his own people; Bush One did the exact opposite; he talked the Shiites into rebelling and then gave Saddam the green light to slaughter them.

Same goes for the WMD nonsense. It was Rumsfeld/Cheney et al, that provided Saddam with the chemical and biological starter kits, when he was at war with Iran. You Republicans do not give a shit about how many people Saddam slaughtered. You stood by when he gassed the Kurds. You are just trying to bullshit your way out of having been caught in your WMD lies.

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The Neo Con Warmongering Chicken Hawks of the Republican party are the cluster of imbeciles that created the Iraq Inferno. Surge my arse. Real leaders would not have created the mess that required a surge that stretched our military to a breaking point, and is destroying military families with execessive tours of duty, while allowing The Taliban and al Qaeda to flourish. You can keep on spraying turdblossom perfume on it all you want to, but you still own that stinking pig.

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