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A Question on Trolls
Its been proven over and over the past couple decades that the Democrat's biggest problem is that they are seen as pussies. Specifically -
(1) that they have no core beliefs, nothing they will stand up for
(2) so afraid of "appearing weak" that they vote with the republicans even when they disagree, making them appear...weak
(3) afraid that if they take a stand against a guy with 30% approval ratings, they risk appearing "un-american"
(4) they frequently highlight the fact that they "voted differently than their base wanted", proving they "aren't liberal nut anti-american pussies like their base!"
(5) once in power, refuse to use that power to hold Republicans accountable for their crimes and political misdeeds...even though the Repubs did far worse when they were in power. As in, "lets just let Rove go here, why press on, he only broke the law and harmed our country. Why do we need to know the specifics anyway?" (Why is it on issues like this they DO NOT do as the Repubs do? The Repubs go after innocent people and crush them using their oversight powers. Or you know, use the AG office to put innocent people in jail who are running for Gov.)
Now, with that in mind, what are we to do with all the trolls here on TPM? Those that pretend they are Obama supporters, but then tell us its "great to move to the center, how brilliant!" Or, "who cares about FISA! Just shut up!" Or, "Shut up for during the next 4 months! Be silent!" You know, all those things that will cause Obama to lose his base, appear like a pussy who fears the Repubs, a guy who doesn't believe in his own ability to convince the voters of what the correct stance is on various issues - esp. those concerning the constitution which he took a pledge to uphold.
Obviously these trolls simply want us to do what we've done in all previous losing campaigns - NOT THIS TIME you McCain trolls. I want Obama to fight. I want Pelosi and congress to hold Rove accountable. I want them to vote down any FISA "agreement" that includes immunity for AT&T et al.
I am not going to "shut up". I am not going to cheer when Obama moves to the center (then states he is not), causing his base to lose enthusiasm. A move that will show the "up for grabs" voters that he's just a typical poll, no different than the others. I know you McCain trolls would love that, but you're far too obvious.
Nice try.
Comments (120)
I support your bluster, but...
You think we can get him elected POTUS first before you charge the Bastille? Its a little difficult to fight a war without conscripts and a positioned leader. My $0.02 anyway.
July 9, 2008 10:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
My name is VITO and I'm a Barackatroll.
July 9, 2008 10:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
Hey, my kind of troll.
July 9, 2008 6:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
I totally agree with you, because I have no core beliefs, and I'm afraid of appearing weak.
July 9, 2008 10:41 AM | Reply | Permalink
Alex39, those with "core beliefs" are people who need dogma so they know how to think. Take away their dogma and they vanish, cease to exist. The rest of us loopies inhabit some kind of amusing zoo.
July 10, 2008 7:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
Neo con, haven't you read his books, you don't know anything, you don't understand anything, you make me so angry, you're a republican troll, get him elected first, obama is the man never disagree with him, its not the same bill, chill for 4 months, you don't get politics of the possible, wait, doesn't matter, you're stupid.
there, I posted for all the water carrying circle jerks.
Obama is the only one to blame for changing his mind, saying now that security is more important than the rule of law or the constitution. He put himself on the wrong side of the issue, after being on the correct side, where he said, "Ever since 9/11, this Administration has put forward a false choice between the liberties we cherish and the security we demand." Disappointing.
Where Obama outshines the water carriers here on TPM is that he applauds the efforts of those who fight for the core values, even against him, when he abandons those core beliefs, "You have sent a message to the halls of power that the American people will not permit the abuse of power – and demanded that we reclaim our core values by restoring the rule of law." That's the Obama the people of the US will respond to.
July 9, 2008 10:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
john, maybe you should consider a hostile takeover of the entire TPM site. Then you could kick everyone off who isn't a "real" Democrat and you guys would have so much fun. Tender an offer to the shareholders. Who knows--maybe they'll go for it. Worth a shot, right?
July 9, 2008 11:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
I did! I did! I just saw a cwazy wabbit puddy cat troll. Don't listen to him John. He is trying to sucker you into selling out to the man and going corporate. Stay out their on the fringe where you can wield that big stick that you carry up your arse.
July 9, 2008 11:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
Can greens still hang out?
Just wondering
July 9, 2008 2:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
john gets to make the rules. He's the only one qualified to make that decision.
July 9, 2008 2:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
Coming from hrebendorf, this one's rich.
As Tankard observed elsewhere, with a hat tip to Letterman, some of these jokes just write themselves.
July 10, 2008 1:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
gharlane, you're always right. You already know that, of course.
July 10, 2008 4:12 AM | Reply | Permalink
Why, hrebendorf, thanks for noticing!
What's far more entertaining, of course, is how often you're wrong. And how gracious you are when it's pointed out.
Cheers!
July 10, 2008 5:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
gharlane, I can't tell you how honored I am to have my own personal monitor/truth inspector/biographer/stalker. I think I should make it perfectly clear, though, that I can't afford to pay you. Just so you know. And also, I'm not going to have sex with you.
July 10, 2008 3:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Damn. I thought you were serious when you said "Blow me, shithead." Or at least talking dirty to me. I got it all wrong.... oh well, I guess I prefer to stay away from animal-animal hybrids in any case.
July 10, 2008 6:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
It does get tiresome being wrong so often, though, doesn't it?
July 10, 2008 6:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
I can't tell you how honored I am to have my own personal monitor/truth inspector/biographer/stalker.
You're welcome, hrebendorf. All serial liars need personal monitors and truth inspectors. Not all are as lucky as you, but you've earned it. Biographies will come later.
July 11, 2008 2:14 AM | Reply | Permalink
Hide yer greens. The bunnykitty will nibble 'em.
July 9, 2008 5:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
This site is much better than the Bump, bump, bump mentallity of other sites.
Really allot of independents hang here because of it.
I agree hrebendorf, censoring is a tacit admission that a position or argument is lame.
July 9, 2008 11:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
So let me get this straight if I don't agree with you I am a troll? Well I guess you'll excuse me I need to go clean under my bridge.
July 9, 2008 11:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
As always, I do believe you got it exactly right.
July 9, 2008 12:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Committed movement progressives.
Pragmatic electoral progressives.
Me and you
and you and me
no matter how they toss the dice
it had to be
the only one for me is you
and you is me
so happy together
I can't see me lovin nobody but you
for all my life!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mploADKBihc
July 9, 2008 11:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
Since 60s pop may be too corporate for my movement-minded friends, maybe you'll prefer this metaphor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1ELF1kudpU&feature=related
July 9, 2008 12:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Anyone who disagrees with the party line on this site is a "troll". It's silly, cliquish and it shuts down discussion and it becomes impossible to learn anything new.
July 9, 2008 12:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hiya Bev... :)
Yep...I agree with you. I thought this was a place where things like this could be discussed. I have been here from Day #1 (like you) and I have never been called a troll until now. Maybe we're silly and cliquish for thinking we could have honest debates on this site...maybe this is a Brave New TPM World.
July 9, 2008 2:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
It is silly beyond belief. Why should anyone who disagrees with anyone else be a "troll"? It's always some conspiracy theorist who's sure that anyone who might possibly disagree is a "freeper" or a "troll" or a "plant" by the other side.
July 9, 2008 2:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
LOL...yeah it is a 'troll fest' here as you listen to everybody scream whenever they disagree. I am just so shocked, shocked I tell ya, to find out we're all trolls and none of us had any inkling we were.
I joke about it but it doesn't get anymore silly or lame than this.
July 9, 2008 3:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
I've been called a troll numerous times, despite openly saying I am a republican/libertarian. If you disagree with the established liberal pro-Obama all the time view, you are called a troll.
July 9, 2008 7:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
If you state clearly that you are not a Democrat, and have different opinions than most here, you should not be considered a troll. And if you also state your viewpoint clearly you should be considered.
That said, if you present your view in an aggressively confrontational way, you will be considered pointless.
July 9, 2008 7:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
Republican libertarian here as well...
"Mainstreet Republican", not a wall street republican.
We should start our own group here..
I bet our numbers are high on the site as many of Josh's concerns and TPM topics he has covered are of interest to generally educated people who consume US political coverage.
July 9, 2008 11:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Troll.
LOL
(NOT!)
July 9, 2008 3:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
LOL...get in line worker bee. It is like the 6th time in the last 24 hours.
You damn Freeper troll. :-P
:)
July 9, 2008 3:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
LOL Troll!
July 9, 2008 5:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
You are mistaken Bev. Some posters like John call the people they disagree with trolls. That is a shame. It is not ones positions on an issue that marks a troll. It is they use of invective and the attempt to simply inflame rather than persuade. All but the best among us ocasionaly post a trollish comment but a true troll does little else.
July 9, 2008 3:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree, BevD.
July 9, 2008 4:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
To those asking - YES, YOU ARE A TROLL. Obviously a lot of FreeRepublic people have started to post here, trying to convince us to stay quiet, be meek, "shut up", etc. so that Obama and his supporters will appear weak. Might have worked in years past, but this year? Not so much.
Obama might have tripped a bit these last couple of weeks, but he'll be back. He might have fallen for the "move to the center to win the general!" crap after he started listening to the "I haven't ever won, but believe me this will work - strategists", set free from the losing Dem campaigns, but he'll soon realize how idiotic they are. So back to FreeRepublic with you morons.
July 9, 2008 2:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama has not
Some of us have fallen for the media narative that he has moved to the center.
July 9, 2008 3:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Then how do you his "refining" his policy on Iraq or his "I am voting for telecom immunity after I was against it" or his "I'm for RTKBA now, even though I was against it earlier" or his "I'm really for death penalty for child rapers, even though I was against death penalty before" or ...
Yeah, you can pretty much say that there isn't a major campaign issue on which he hasn't done the Fosbury flop in the last few weeks.
And yet, you claim that he has not changed positions. Seems like you haven't been following the news too closely, lately. Been driving the "Bridge to Nowhere" in Alaska, maybe?
Thanks.
mp
July 10, 2008 7:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
Well, put. What he is trying to do is win the frigging election.
July 10, 2008 7:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
It's rich that you, who has a profile history going all the way back to June (with 3 blog postings, each of which appear to have an anti-Obama slant), are accusing those who have been around for years of being from FreeRepublic and "[starting] to post here". If you really have been reading TPM for 10 years (which would be quite a feat since Josh created it on November 12, 2000), then you'd recognize those names as being not just long-time readers, but long-time contributors.
Take a good, hard look at what you've written. You post "concerns" that you don't genuinely seem to be concerned about. You make wild speculations as to whether Obama will take a "hawk-like position with Iran". You predict that he'll handle the war no differently than Obama. You conflate what Obama supporters (unaffiliated with the campaign) have said about unity with what Obama has said, and then draw faulty conclusions from your faulty premises that this makes him no different than Bush. You are 3 for 3 on troll-like blog entries.
I very, very rarely pull out the troll label. You, however, deserve it.
You have decisively answered tankard's question about what makes one a troll.
You are a troll, and you doth protest too much.
July 9, 2008 3:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
Juicy Kitty!!!!
I like. meowrrrr!
July 9, 2008 6:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's a bencat. Or was that a bobcat?
July 9, 2008 6:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
What kind of kitty? I want one!
July 9, 2008 6:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
I couldn't help it. I've been reading TPM for near 10 years. I've never voted for a Republican. I've voted for each Dem candidate for Pres since 92, even when the name on the ballot was "Kerry".
Yet, when I disagree with Obama, or horror or horrors speak of it, I'm a troll. Not just me, ANYONE who doesn't agree with the "Obama is pure goodness!" nuts around here.
So I thought I'd turn it around, and like I thought, it did make me laugh reading some of the comments. From now on? EVERYONE'S A TROLL! How fun.
I'll bet those that like Obama's "move to the center" because they (mistakenly) believe it will help him win the election are...genuine. I'm just as certain that those who post their disagreements on Obama's "move to the center"....are genuine. I mean, we are posting on TPM ya know?
So far, I've seen all the "troll!" bashing coming from the "Obama is different and new and wonderful and mistake free!" camp. I thought I'd be the first to yell "Troll!" from the side of the realists. Mind you, realists that want Obama to win just as you do.
July 9, 2008 2:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
It is not a poster's stance on the issues that marks them as a troll. It is their tone. It takes more than one incident to judge some one a troll as we are all intemprate at times. You are however showing that clasic signs, self importance, victim complex, and the hurling of insults.
July 9, 2008 3:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
self importance, victim complex, and the hurling of insults.
You mean that's what people do when they're out of arguments?
July 10, 2008 1:25 AM | Reply | Permalink
No, that's what happens when they make the first comment on a post that has nothing to do with that post, but instead perpetuates the "victim" status of the poster from an entirely different thread.
July 10, 2008 7:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
Breaking:
John McCain called Senator Obama a Troll.
July 9, 2008 3:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
This just in:
Obama camp responds, calls McCain a snark.
July 9, 2008 8:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, a lot of troll tossing these days but I vaguely recall the same from earlier times. I think my first experience back before time began was to be called a troll for "snarking all over" someone...
Fortunately for me, at that time I new not what troll or snark meant.. Now I realize that snark is my middle name and troll means republican... Apparently it is fashionable to call folks republicans, but they seem to take offense :( .
July 9, 2008 3:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
ARGH!
TROLLS!
MOLES!
ROLES!
POLLS!
ACQUIRE! MERGE! MARAUD! DILUTE! DILUTE!
ARGH!
July 9, 2008 4:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
You are all trolls!
I alone have the true truth and anyone who disagrees with me should be banned. Banned, I tell you.
At least that's what I'd say but I'm too weak.
July 9, 2008 4:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
In answer to the question, "Is there a method to winning a political argument online?"
Best. Answer. Ever....from "Bill in Portland Maine," courtesy of Daily Kos:
You always You never You should You must You shouldn't You mustn't. Why can't you Why don’t you Why aren't you Why didn’t you How could you? You suck You blow You lie You have no idea. You ignoramus You jerk You Ass You partisan hack. You're lying You're cheating You're distorting You're asking for it. You're out of your mind You’re out of your league You’re out of your tree You're out of your gourd. You’re off your rocker You're off your meds You're off the reservation. You're wrong You're stupid You're ignorant You're mental You're full of shit. You're an automaton You're a bomb-thrower You’re a water carrier You're a Kool Aid drinker You're a hack You're a loser You're a prick. You've got blinders on You've got no sense You've got spittle on your chin You've got your head up your ass. You disgust me You repulse me You disappoint me You make me want to puke. You’re talking in circles You're talking in riddles You’re talking in gibberish You're talking trash You're talking like a two year old. You can go to hell You can kiss my ass You can leave You can take your shit to another blog. I'm warning you I'm telling you I'm advising you I'm this close to troll-rating you. I'm sick of your crap I'm sick of your attitude I'm sick of your comments I'm sick of your emails I'm sick of your purity. Mine's better, smarter, faster, more organized, more effective and more experienced than yours, whatever it is. I say so I know so I was there I heard it from the horse's mouth I saw it on the internet I found it on Wikipedia I have a friend who took a class I got it from Fox News I read a press release from my congressman. Knock it off Cut it out Get a clue Do your homework. Clearly you don’t understand Clearly you don’t listen Clearly you don’t get it Clearly you haven’t tried it Clearly you weren't old enough at the time Clearly you're out of touch Clearly you're running around with the wrong crowd Clearly you want us to lose. One more word One more peep One more comment One more outburst One more syllable and you'll regret it. Don’t give me that attitude Don’t play that card Don’t change the subject Don't act so surprised Don’t be so stupid. Go to hell Go pound sand Go back to your mommy Go screw yourself Go to Little Green Footballs. I'm sick of you I loathe you I hope you get what's coming to you, crybaby.
"With all due respect."
July 9, 2008 4:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Recently I saw a comment on dkos that called the people defending Obama's FISA decision "Republican collaborators." That's one of my all-time favs.
July 10, 2008 12:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
I have chosen to give Obama the benefit of the doubt, but I don't think you should shut up. And there are definitely a few trolls who promote the status quo that got us to where we are because they think they benefit from it. Such people don't want change. They pose as regular old commenters and try to squelch any movement toward holding leaders accountable because that's the prerequisite for change.
That said, although people have a right to say how they feel and should make their demands known to the politicians who work for them, it doesn't hurt to be strategic and thoughtful about the consequences of what is said and when. So that is what some non-trolls have been trying to say.
I want Obama to fight, but I want him to fight the right battle at the right time. I will say what I think about the issues, but will defer to Obama's strategy judgment for now, with the following in mind:
The public tolerance for lies and misrepresentation is nil and Obama is smart enough to see that. If it did turn out that Obama is insincere, he'll be more despised than Bush and instantaneously be turned into a lame duck by his own ex-supporters. I doubt he'd go through a grueling campaign just to waste the opportunity of a lifetime.
If, as some suggest, Obama's current move to the center is because he has plans to move into the oval office and then say, "I never really promised that; I technically said x,y and z," we'll have to deal with that when the time comes. If his overall message turns out to have been misleading to get votes, I'm guessing he'll be a one-termer,
The difference between this election and what other politicians have gotten away with in the past, is that after so many Bush-lies, people are paying much closer attention now. So Obama is walking on egg shells and I respect him for having the courage to try to maneuver in this political minefield. I think he's going to do the right thing, but go ahead and say what you think!
July 9, 2008 5:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't often say this about anybody, and with good reason, but I think Obama may be smarter than I am. I am sure he is a better politician.
Therefore, I will withhold judgment until further events unfold. And, yes, I will vote for him.
July 9, 2008 5:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Anyone calling for good manners and perspective is not "squelch any movement toward holding leaders accountable" over these issues.
Disagreeing with one's candidate and talking about it on-line is one thing. Taking every opportunity to scream and clutch at your chest, proclaiming to the GODS that Obama is dead to you is something else entirely.
Either that person is an agent provocateur (O prefer troll because it is easier to spell) or a simplistic and naive democrat in need of a spanking. Either way, many Barack supporters feel we are his first line of offense against that shit an act accordingly. I find nothing unreasonable or illogical about that.
For most of us, neither the harsh language nor the troll labels come out until we have exhausted our thesaurus trying to explain something politely. This to people who hurls sarcasm and hyperbole instead of reasoned debate.
July 10, 2008 7:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
this again?
how can obama "move to the center" when his positions and policies are exactly the same as when he was running in the primary?
i've yet to hear a satisfactory answer to this.
July 9, 2008 5:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
You will not get one either. It is the people who were suporting Obama based on emotion and the media narative who think he has changed because the narative has changed. Those who were paying atention know he has been remarkably consistent.
July 9, 2008 6:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Those who were paying atention know he has been remarkably consistent.
Of course.
October 2007: "To be clear: Barack will support a filibuster of any bill that includes retroactive immunity for telecommunications companies."
January 2008: "The FISA court works. The separation of power works. We can trace, track down and take out terrorists while ensuring that our actions are subject to vigorous oversight, and do not undermine the very laws and freedom that we are fighting to defend.
"No one should get a free pass to violate the basic civil liberties of the American people -- not the President of the United States, and not the telecommunications companies that fell in line with his warrantless surveillance program. We have to make clear the lines that cannot be crossed."
June 2008: "My view on FISA has always been that the issue of the phone companies per se is not one that overrides the security interests of the American people."
July 2008: Votes against filibuster, votes for bill.
Remarkably. Consistent.
July 10, 2008 2:48 AM | Reply | Permalink
I don't believe Obama has changed his views, but he is trying to give that impression. After years of openly supporting every gun control law proposed, after refusing to sign the amicus brief in the recent SC case, after simply replying 'YES' to the question 'Should handguns be banned', he NOW claims to support the 2nd amendment, that he agrees that it is an individual right, etc. He hedges by claiming that he still supports 'sensible' gun control, but refuses to define what that means. That is one example of why people are saying he is shifting positions.
July 9, 2008 8:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
except its completely possible to support an individual's right to own a handgun AND think that there needs to be some control measures in place to protect society from people and weapons that could be dangerous. those two things are not mutually exclusive.
for some reason, the "netroots" (or whatever you want to call them) think that we nominated a firebrand leftwing liberal when in fact, Obama is much more of a pragmatic centrist than a traditional "liberal".
i'm telling you guys, he's gonna make you proud because he's actually interested in solving problems and actually GOVERNING.
and you're first sentence is kind of confusing. he's not changed but he wants people to think he has? because being a flip flopper worked so well for kerry, right?
July 9, 2008 8:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
I should have said he wants the general populace to believe that he is a centrist, while his base to believe he is a leftist.
The problem with gun control is that it's supporters often call for compromise, but never give up anything. It's not a compromise if you want all my sandwich but just take half. I get nothing in exchange, you just take less from me, and there is nothing to keep you from coming back later to take more. This is why after compromising on the 34 NFA, and the 68 GCA, the NRA dug in it's heels.
Regarding people and weapons that could be dangerous, I would focus on the people, as they can be dangerous with anything. It is sad that millions of violently deranged people are walking the streets instead of being treated for mental illness.
July 9, 2008 9:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
They will fixate on the word troll, but it is the wussie characterization that has pierced their balloon. Nice shot.
That said, Obama has got fight in his chest but he's also got calculus in his head, and that is why he has and will continue to win. I disagree with him on FISA, but I also trust him with his political instincts as I would trust Michael Jordan with the basketball. A little push and shove is good, but artistry takes the game. I can say the following of no other politician: he is out of my league.
July 9, 2008 5:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
slam dunk. nothing to add.
July 9, 2008 8:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
lol, of course, people who have objected to Obama's sellout on FISA have been called trolls hundreds of times...that they don't recognize that you are just providing a little tit for tat in a satiric way shows their penchant for irony begins and ends with supporting slavery jokes (at least for today)
My preferred nominee voted against FISA - which was no surprise to those of us who have known all along who the real progressive in the race was.
July 9, 2008 6:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
ah yes Oregon Activist, but that bitch is calculating! She only did it to hurt Obama! She knew there was nothing he could do (like, uh, vote against it), and she just can't let it go. DAMNIT! now we'll have to listen to you damn Clinton freaks tell us she did the right thing and he did the wrong thing, just go away! That isn't good for Obama, shut up. Oh, nearly forgot to add...Troll.
July 9, 2008 7:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
I reject, denounce, and anti-recommend the rampant and disgusting persecution of trolls on this site. Trolls are people too.
July 9, 2008 7:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
If this post is, other than to toss out another round of name calling...
an attempt to state the frustration some of us feel at the apparent impotence and spinelessness of our Democratic leaders...
if this post is to say, we want bold politicians who stand up like James Stewart in Mr. Smith Goes to Washington and filibuster until they drop, galvanizing a nation and exposing the phonies for what they are...
if this post is a call to arms or a cry for help...
Then I share the pain. I may be moderate at times in my approach, but that doesn't mean that my inner James Stewart is missing. But I'm not there. I'm not running for president. In fact, I wouldn't wish the job on anyone I truly loved, but Obama chose to put himself in the grinder. And I will back him until he's elected, not silently, but firmly. I will disagree at times, and applaud at times. But I will be there to raise money for him, to make what donations I can, and to campaign for him, and to vote for him.
But when he steps into office, I will be among those who scream for him to do the right thing - to hold the criminals responsible for their treason against this country, to protect our rights under the Constitution, to repair our sunken values and our dismal world image, and to restore our stewardship of the environment and help lead us to energy independence and more individual responsibility to our world.
But if this post really means to say that anyone who disagrees is an impostor, then, sad to say, it's just one more meaningless jab at what TPM is about - which is a forum for us to share and to learn and have OUR voices heard. All of them.
July 9, 2008 8:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
I thought this post too obvious; basically, I'm tired of watching anyone who doesn't support Obama 100% have their motives questions, being called Trolls, or "PUMAS" or whatever that stupid term is. Of reading insightful commentary on why Obama is doing the wrong thing *strategically*, followed with replies of "Great, you're making John McCain very happy", or "Keep talking and elect McCain".
This is TPM. 98%+ are voting for Obama. 98% absolutely do not want McCain in office. I don't think Obama's vote on FISA is just *wrong* in terms of what it does to our country, I think its a *horrible* strategic error. He loses enthusiasm among his base, AND appears a pushover to those "in the center". Those "in the center", or worse, the "independent", don't know much about FISA. What they come away with is: did this guy vote according to his beliefs, or is he a calculating politician? Sadly, I believe Obama has hurt himself with both groups.
Does that sound like someone that wants McCain elected? Or someone who "doesn't get how politics work?" I mean, the past two weeks its been *hammered* over and over here that "Obama is smart! He GETS IT. He KNOWS you have to move to the center to win in the general!" Then he says, "no, I haven't moved to the center". Whats the response here? "It was the MSM saying he was moving to the center". People, come on.
Again, here's the point again - if you think "shutting up" and "not disagreeing with Obama" for the next 4 months are whats best, you're wrong. But I do believe you are GENUINE in your belief that its the best path. Makes no sense, but you want him to win, I believe that. Those of us who believe he's making terrible mistakes, and that speaking out will not only pressure him to do what HE knows is right (anyone here really think he'd vote for FISA were he not thinking politically?), but show him we are substantial enough to get him elected. That he'd do better to follow his heart and mind, leading to a pumped up base that would donate and work their asses off; rather than try to get those mythical "centrist" and "independents" who want him to vote with the Repubs, which only dampens enthusiasm among his base (or at best, forces them to come up with all sorts of "I can read his mind, here is what he's doing" explanations that sound nutty.)
Bluntly - NO ONE WANTS MCCAIN ELECTED HERE. Tell me I'm wrong, but don't call me a troll, or tell me "you're not a real dem", or "you obvs hate Obama", etc. etc. etc. blah blah.
July 9, 2008 9:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hey del, some of us just didn't agree with you 'FISA fanatics'. I wasn't convinced and none of your arguments really proved your case to me. I do think Obama screwed up big time, since he alienated some of his base. He miscalculated. But I certainly am no apologist. I just disagree with people trying to hammer me in the head with the FISA dogma because Markos told them to. It was almost an article of faith, and a freaky explosion totally disproportionate to the bill. And I don't have to hold my tongue either.
My view: Obama screwed up, but Netroots overreacted and hurt their own credibility a little. (Looked overzealous and worst of all, weak and unable to real move votes)
July 9, 2008 11:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well howdy. You'd be incorrect calling me a "FISA fanatic". I don't read Kos, TPM and Atrios is what I have time for. I don't "listen" to anyone for the "answer", I gather info and then figure it out myself (right or wrong).
FISA was when I realized my worst fears (not exaggerating, I can't take it anymore, I'm starting to become one of those crazies who think both parties are bought with the same money), that Obama would do as all the other Dems have done. Crap.
Please, can't just one Dem stand up and speak the truth? The people *want it*. They DO NOT see it as extreme. I'm near convinced you can stand up and say, "This country is fucked up!", and the candor of the moment would lead to massive support and enthusiasm, FINALLY a pol willing to speak to us as humans.
Someone will do this. Someday. It sure isn't Obama. And all of you who blindly support him, make excuses for him right now, you'll be with us at some point, upset with him, claiming you just "didn't see it at the time".
Better than McCain? Sure. Pretty low bar though. My plan for guaranteed victory? Since we know he's better than McCain (by far), why not just shut up and let Obama move to the RIGHT of McCain? VICTORY!!!! Then, uh, he'll be this awesome guy of the people, cause...just cause.
July 10, 2008 1:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
You must be a McCain troll. C'mon, admit it.
Oops, I actually meant:
You're either a McCain troll or a fucking moron. Which one is it?
July 10, 2008 1:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry. I was trying to channel Jason there using one of his classic rhetorical tropes, but the tags didn't come out right. My bad.
July 10, 2008 1:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
I raise my arm, the white glove soon to strike your uncouth, savage fa...oh, ok, putting the glove back kind sir. Yeah, I saw that guy today; he has a creepy avatar, like you'd expect "free candy" to be written along the bottom, near the rusty fender back right. Or something. Very tough to volley with that chap.
July 10, 2008 2:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, I saw that guy today; he has a creepy avatar, like you'd expect "free candy" to be written along the bottom, near the rusty fender back right. Or something. Very tough to volley with that chap.
Not all that tough, really :) Pretty easy to prove him wrong, and very entertaining to watch him either (1) fulminate or (2) turn tail and disappear when it happens.
Having said that, wouldn't want to be in an alley with him and his free candy around.
July 10, 2008 5:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
You quite obviously are a troll, or you wouldn't do your best to take down legitimate critiques of your combative and illogical bullshit.
Further, you have nothing criticism for Obama on a single issue. Nary a word about McCain's failings. You showed up here not long after the first dust-up over this issue and have followed your "script" to a T ever since.
Sorry, but troll fits as a definition for your tactics.
July 10, 2008 9:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
Further, you have nothing criticism for Obama on a single issue. Nary a word about McCain's failings. You showed up here not long after the first dust-up over this issue and have followed your "script" to a T ever since.
Bzzt. Wrong again. And again.
Been around for a while, little boy. And supporting Obama, at that. I will cop to being combative at times, though. It's directed at idiocy on issues, though, not as a lock-step partisan of a particular candidate, no matter how asinine the candidate's positions are at a given moment.
Wouldn't you rather be right about something for a change? Anything?
July 10, 2008 9:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hmm. It appears between (1) fulminate and (2) disappear, Jason is, for the time being, deciding to fulminate.
July 10, 2008 10:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
You have yet to prove a thing wrong about my comments. You are all insults and bluster and sarcasm and persecution complex. You aren't even a half-assed opponent. Keep trying, junior.
July 10, 2008 9:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
You have yet to prove a thing wrong about my comments.
Riiiight. Of course not.
July 10, 2008 6:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
At least I have the balls to post as myself and have some original thoughts now and then. You are a one-note wonder. You can't dispute my critique of your naive musings, so you take a shot at my avatar. How is mom's basement these days? A little humid in the summer I bet, but cooler than the rest of the house.
July 10, 2008 9:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
You're actually going after someone for having an online pseudonym? Seriously? Someone better tell vox populus, observer2, Alex 39, likelydemented, workerbee, dillumiati, Libertine, theCleverBulldog, barefooted, gettex, del7, Ben, codegen86, The Beetle, Logico, freaktown, AdAbsurdum, Oregon Activist, Genghis, raider99, Desidero, Dis n Punish (nice Foucault ref there btw, Dis), and Dorn76 that you have a problem with that.
And when you stoop to the "mom's basement" level of commentary, you know you're out of arguments. Once you hit that, you're through the bottom of the barrel.
July 10, 2008 9:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
This post mentioned trolls.
Recommend.
July 9, 2008 8:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thank the Great Bwahooha that someone finally posted an article that provides Obama supporters and their opponents an opportunity to question each others' motives and characters.
I was afraid it would never happen! Everyone on both sides had been so circumspect, polite, and well-reasoned so far.
And there are so many new, stimulating arguments raised here! What a breath of fresh air!
July 9, 2008 9:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Genghis is right that trolls deserve more cred. For instance, it turns out that Abraham Lincoln, of all people, was literally a Republican troll!
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/07/time-to-make-a-difference-july.php#comment-2956646
July 9, 2008 9:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sometimes trolls morph into respected members of the community and some become "pets" of sorts who are tolerated because their contributions are so predictably amusing.
Once in awhile, real trolls get disappeared aka "banned" from TPM.
So, watchout kiddies, you never know when the bell will troll for thee.
Including you, john, you sexist MCP troll you.
July 9, 2008 10:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
I would appear far more cool-rific if I knew what MCP meant. Is it good? Or are you a troll?
By the way, anyone bans me, I got me a plan. I'll just use the edit function to keep updating past posts! [turns to distant voice, its saying something about edit function...]
July 9, 2008 10:46 PM |