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TPM: Seriously, Fix @#$& Already!
After not having much to do with TPM's UGC (user generated content) for the last month, because the features sucked, I thought I would return and see what's new. After all, there have been some new hires. Sadly, it still sucks. I still can't edit my post, I still can't vote posts down. The comment stream is still too long to make much use out of. No mail box... The list goes on.
I'm still going to be visiting the site, I enjoy the main posts but until there is some movement to FIX THE PROBLEMS I don't really see the point in commenting or providing content to the site. At this point I read Andrew Sullivan more because he updates more often and has better inclusion of his readers.








Comments (43)
Not to belabor the point but look who has a link to the gore speech and look who doesn't... Credit goes to clearthinker for that.
June 17, 2008 2:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
Ok, I'll belabor the point. This is now on the recommended list: http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/06/test-title.php
I'll be back to check this post's comments but seriously... WTF?
June 17, 2008 2:38 AM | Reply | Permalink
Few people have been writing since Obama secured the nomination. That's why the current quality is low. There is now a post on the rec list with a mere 3 recommendations, which is probably some kind of record. (That said, it can also be entertaining to occasionally recommend an empty post.)
As to your main point, I believe that TPM's first objective was to stabilize the software, which they've done (more or less) and then to expand the features, which they're working on. These things take a lot more time to implement than most people realize.
June 17, 2008 10:17 AM | Reply | Permalink
Genghis, I think this is unfair characterization. We have had numerous posts on the flooding, oil situation, and even media analysis (e.g. Tim Russert).
Many of these posts have dropped off the board because they were lightly read -- while the more "easy listening" posts -- and those satisfying articleman's tenents -- have been recommended.
But don't blame the writing for that. Blame the fact that people would rather eat candy than vegetables.
If I didn't know you better, I would dare say your comment is almost self-serving as you haven't been around lately. ;-)
June 17, 2008 3:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Genghis,
Red, blue, yellow, purple -- man, is that a stupid picture of you!
June 17, 2008 4:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
To be fair, HuffPo also has no edit, and no mailbox/Pm system, but at least here your comments make it to viewing; every time without fail.
I always try to be a considered, and considerate, poster. I don't yell or scream, don't generally swear (I think I called someone a 'fool' once) and generally try to stay to the facts of the topic at hand and express myself as reasonably as possible. And yet fully 1/2 of my comments on HuffPo never get approved when they oppose the premise of the topic.
A prime example is the 'Global warming deniers on HuffPo..' thread. I pointed out that Gore lobbies his MMGW agenda because he is invested heavily in 'green' and not because he's a humanitarian. I provided a reasonable stance and included links to the businesses Gore has set up. It was never approved. But this made it:
HuffPo seems to be agenda supporting, not a place of honest and thoughtful discussion. When you oppose the running narrative with research and information you are passed over in favor of 'wingnut' (their word) replies in an attempt to show that anyone who doesn't agree does so simply because they don't have a braincell to spare.
At least here when I take the time to post it actually make it to the page and doesn't have to be 'approved' by some 'wingnut' who picks and chooses who has 'responded' to his topic.
June 17, 2008 5:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
If so, you could start by losing the animated avitar (that goes for all the others, too). They are really annoying.
June 18, 2008 12:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
sometimes you dont' get everything you want from life.
grown ups recognize this as a fact of life and don't constantly whine about it.
June 17, 2008 11:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
So...Diet,
You're posting about all the problems within TPM's UGC. You list a few of those problems. You say you spend more time at Sullivan's site because has a "better inlcusion of his readers."
Then your first comment within your own post is to try and buttress your argument about TPM's UGC by pointing to a post about TPM's choice of articles. WTF indeed. Did you hit your head on something? Are you OK?
Seriously... Please just go away...and stay away. It's clear TPM is no longer your cup of tea...so much so that you can't even keep your "arguments" straight. So, go on...leave. None of us will miss you.
June 17, 2008 11:50 AM | Reply | Permalink
I was being facetious about my praise of andrew.
>Then your first comment within your own post is to try and buttress your argument about TPM's UGC by pointing to a post about TPM's choice of articles.
If you checked the link out you'd see it was a test someone posted, It got on the recommended list. Obviously something isn't right with the recommendation system. If a post with no content can make the recommended list I'd rather not waste my time.
June 17, 2008 6:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, that's rather rude. He's asking for improvements, though in a belligerent manner himself to be fair, and all you are offering insults.
Republican by chance? Because you seem to be offering their 'method' of 'debate'. Truly, look past you differences and see to the issue. Would you not like to be able to edit your typos? Get PMs from other members? Are there not features you'd like to see and think are perhaps taking longer to implement than they should?
As someone who works on the net daily I know how easy changes can be, and how much they enhance a site and help it grow to excellence.
I like it here, but that doesn't mean I have to 'yes man' it.
June 17, 2008 12:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
I have complained on a few occasions to TPM about the difficulties we all experience here. Diet posts about a few of these things then tries to further his "argument" by jumping on the "Stop with the Hillary Articles" bandwagon. This has nothing to do with all of our posting problems. This tells me he's more interested in gratuitously and ignorantly attacking TPM... he's not simply trying to "enhance the site."
Please.
June 17, 2008 12:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
>"Stop with the Hillary Articles"
Huh? You lost me.
My fustration is mainly in the fact that it's been 5 months and there has been a grand total of 0 improvements in the UGC interface.
I still read and admire TPM as a whole, the articles and follow up that I've associated with TPM is bested by no other blog. In fact I still read TPM on average of 5 times a day. I just want to voice my frustration with the lack of progress on this side of the site. It could be so much more...
June 17, 2008 6:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm sorry, but where did he say anything about Hillary articles? I see a link to a 'Test title - This is a test to see what this looks like' post with 13 recommendations, but not Hillary? Why would a 'OMG LOOK AT ME!' post be on the front? Would a 'vote down' option not correct the situation?
I like it here, but posts like that being on the 'recommended' list just makes the site look like it's frequented by juveniles.
June 17, 2008 12:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
My mistake about the link. Forgive me.
His first comment, though, is about a post by "clearthinker" (seriously ironic name!) that talks about TPM's article about the media being unfair to Clinton and not posting something about Gore's endorsement of Obama.
How is this about technical stuff?
It's not about difficulties in posting or "enhancing the site." It's about jumping on the bandwagon that thinks TPM is biased.
June 17, 2008 1:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
No, the original post is entirely about technical problems.
The poster's comments might be interpreted as "Stop with Hillary content" theme, but also might be interpreted as an example of how one blog (The Daily Dish) compares with Election Central.
You chose the former interpretation. Fine. But be fair. The original post was entirely about technical issues.
June 17, 2008 1:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
Not that I should have to do this...if you had actually read all my posts I wouldn't...but here goes.
His original post was all about tech stuff. Yes. My criticism was about him saying "not to belabor my point..." his original point being about tech problems! but he then goes on to talk about "clearthinker's" post. Not about tech stuff. He's belaboring the wrong point...or is there no point at all, which is what I suspect.
My contention from his post and his comment is that he is simply part of the Legion of the Unhinged and was looking to gratuitously beat up on TPM. Which of course is fine. As is my saying that I think it's pretty stupid.
June 17, 2008 2:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
loki:
I suspect you wouldn't have been so upset at his mentioning my post -- which was not a "Hillary content" post no matter how you want to push it, it was an issue of priorities -- if you had agreed with what I said.
One thing is clear: between some of the technical issues discussed and the editorial choices, there are some dissatisfied customers. Whether they are dissatisfied enough to have their eyeballs leave remains to be seen.
Josh, I assume is, first and foremost, all about making the business model for TPM work. (He is, after all, using this as a revenue stream.) I don't know if the comments here and elsewhere jive with the overall site statistics, but if they do, he will surely pay attention to the comments here.
June 17, 2008 3:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
Gore endorsing Obama...not that important. TPM's coverage of how the media works, in this case in regards to Hillary, (with a little touch of how they treated Obama as well) much more important.
This is obvious. This is real news. This is what I think TPM is all about. They are not about bowing to pressure from unhinged Obama supporters. Don't let the door hit ya! ;^}
June 17, 2008 4:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Since you keep checking my blog, I'm sure you noted I also brought up the Pew/Harvard report that refuted the claim and did so in a much more scientific manner.
I know you won't agree with the report, loki, because it doesn't support your world-view, but at least be accurate when you try to slam someone.
Once again, I do appreciate your hanging on my every word and responding to it. Thanks!
June 17, 2008 4:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
By the way, for those interested, here is the link:
http://journalism.org/node/11266
June 17, 2008 4:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
I had been looking around for the Gore video and TPM is usually first with a link to content like that. Clearthinker posted that it was linked to over at Andrew's site. It was a little dig at TPM for being slow, it was a dumb dig, it didn't come off as humorous as I had thought it would.
June 17, 2008 6:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Fair enough, I didn't see the bandwagon go by :)
Mind you, harpying [sic] on about Hillary's campaign is so last month's primary, but I don't begrudge the grudge and don't mind posts on it. They give me a chance to ask how Obama was anything but fair, and much more than fair, to Hillary. But lacking a clitoris I don't often feel my viewpoint is taken on board. ;)
June 17, 2008 1:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Why don't you ask for a refund?
June 17, 2008 3:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
As loki redux pointed out maybe I should just leave and never come back and give up on improvements. Certainly if everyone did that the number of happy readers would be at 100%!
Rather I'd like TPM to know why my usage has declined so they might better understand how their readers view the site. My hope is that they improve features and create an even better site than before.
This isn't just a problem with TPM, I actually hardly ever visit HuffPo unless they have something newsworthy because they have really crappy comments and the UGC isn't worth reading for the most part. I really admire most of the people here and value their take on the news of the day. Unfortunately I find it increasingly time consuming and frustrating.
I've gone back to using reddit for UGC, their user community isn't as high a quality as TPM but it's far easier to use and less time consuming.
June 17, 2008 7:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't want expanded features!
I want the features they have now to FUCKING WORK!
June 17, 2008 6:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
I was being facetious about my praise of andrew.
>Then your first comment within your own post is to try and buttress your argument about TPM's UGC by pointing to a post about TPM's choice of articles.
If you checked the link out you'd see it was a test someone posted, It got on the recommended list. Obviously something isn't right with the recommendation system. If a post with no content can make the recommended list I'd rather not waste my time.
June 17, 2008 6:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm glad I'm not the only one that would like some site improvements. TPM is a great site for news and following a story but for UGC it's just too aggravating to use daily.
I can't edit my spelling errors.
I can't clear up the confusion in the main post.
I will have to check this post for the next few days to see if someone else replied because there is no mailbox or reply alert.
I can't remove or unrecommend my second comment as it was dumb and just created confustion.
I really would like to know if fly has a new post and what the gang here at TPM think about it but alas that too is rather time consuming.
June 17, 2008 6:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
I would just like to know how to edit my profile. I am stuck in this hot wool hat and cannot change my avatar to my summer cap. Plus other edits. It seems impossible. We are all trapped exactly as we are, stuck in time.......
June 17, 2008 7:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
Is that Ogre, from a Revenge of the Nerds?
The frustration with the post is an endless vacuum! I totally understand about the edit issues especially since I am not the best at spelling or typing. I hope it improves but the emphasis that TPM now gets from other media outlets is far more apparent than a couple of years ago. So I guess you can just chalk it up to growing pains for TPM. Of course that doesn't mean it isn't frustrating it just means I post here a lot less!
June 17, 2008 7:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree, love TPM, but c'mon, these things need to be fixed already.
June 17, 2008 8:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Reason:
TPM told us last WINTER that changes were coming. You can judge for yourself how honest they have been.
No 'EDIT' function. No 'DELETE' ability for ones own messages. No 'REPORTING' feature to get rid of trolls.
It's like using Compuserve Chat Rooms in 1995! :(
June 17, 2008 8:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
>It's like using Compuserve Chat Rooms in 1995! :(
I'm still laughing... LOL. I couldn't agree more!
June 17, 2008 9:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
What's a chatroom? Better yet, what's a Compuserve?
June 18, 2008 12:48 AM | Reply | Permalink
What's really sad is that posts of this kind are now so frequent that even when they are the most recommended posts on the site, there's no reply in the comments from TPM's management.
Guys, there's a problem.
Most of us liked the old software and format (which had more features) better than we like this one, which was buggy for months and then, after the bugs were fixed, has just left us asking for our old features back.
We used to have, to name just a few things: the ability to preview and edit our posts and comments and the ability to privately message one another. Also, discussion threads were once structured so that discussions could go off in their own directions. A big part of that was that when you went back to a thread you'd already visited, you were directed to the last comment you'd seen.
Can we please have our old functions back?
June 17, 2008 10:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for unwittingly taking on the duties of the weekly TPM-"heckuva job brownie"-software whiners' club thread. :-)
I think I speak for many by saying it was a pleasure to see you join the club.
We in the club have a lot of hope that, yes we can someday see things like an edit or preview feature and a tracking feature. We optimistically hope that many squeaky wheels may get some grease some day. We also believe just leaving the complaining up to a couple people allows the powers that be to shrug it off as sour grapes and think everyone using the site is just peachy keen happy with the software here.
Here was last week's thread, which you may have missed:
The complaints there took a humorous sarcastic approach. Your different take adds a nice variety to the series.
Judging from your laughing at GayIthacan's joke above (an oldie but a goodie), I presume you also missed the June 5 thread:
where I argued the point that no way was this software like a chat board circa 2003, but rather, it was more like ebay circa 1998.Here's a couple of new complaints I picked up in comments reading recent threads, as volunteer self-appointed secretary of the club, I post them on Notepad when I see them and them paste them a a comment on the week's thread.
Remember when you stop by next time to check for any complaint threads and exercise your club duty of recommending them. :-)
June 17, 2008 10:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
They have some seriously f'ed up backend code. It looks like they are either using multiple databases for user data storage, or they have some really bad replication going on. When I log in, I frequently get "Unknown user" and an otherwise blank page (but, I am logged in). I have to click back into the site and manually return to the page where I logged in. Sometimes I have my user handle showing ("Hi naugiedoggie"), sometimes I have my name showing ("Hi Michael Powe"). When I click "send" for a comment, I'll get an error, "bad username or password," and then I click a second time and the comment will be posted. For three months, my most recent comment in my profile was from 2005.
You can't follow your comment threads anymore. It used to be, you could look at your profile and see if any new comments had been posted in response to your comments. The comment rating system was good feedback, too. They did away with the two most significant and useful features and called it an "upgrade." Big Microsoft fans, I guess.
Complaints are just blackholed.
Funny, I started doing political exchanges like these during the first Gulf War in 1990-91. "Echomail" on the old FidoNet network. That system of direct interaction was slow -- basically like an email list -- but far more interactive than any of these "new, improved" "blog" sites like the reconstituted TPM or Huffington Post.
The technology has changed, but it doesn't seem like the people using it have learned all that much about effective communication.
Thanks.
mp
June 17, 2008 11:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, from following the "story" since February, I would say Josh Marshall and Andrew Golis have basically admitted to this being the case in past complaint threads where they have commented. They told us in explanation of why our our old pre-software-change Reader Blogs never got put back up. Those got put on a server separate from others that got put on a truck that got lost or something.
I have written about the other reasons before, but it bears repeating. In February, with the installation, they did bring over all the Contributor Posts going all the way back to the start, because they had those, BUT THEN it seems to me they screwed those up too over time and changed where they put them.
What they uploaded they seem to have done it in different ways and put it in different places at different times. For example, there is something called the Reader Blog archive page, with weekly archives. For the first couple of months since February (the Reader blogs lost on a truck, remember) they put Contributor posts there, and no Reader Blogs. Then they switched to putting new Reader Blogs there (the old ones are still sitting on a beta site) and no Contributor blogs. When you clicked on a contributor's name, in like Feb. and March, with the new software you used to be able to get all their posts back to February if not earlier, now you often (if not always) can't, only the last 10. I was trying to figure out where they are putting them now, maybe under the menu on TPMCafe front page? But I am not going to go chasing. In any case, so far I have seen A BIG MESS of the database, a big mess. I've seen a couple of contributors try to link back to their earlier posts and it doesn't work, as the urls have been changed.
Forgive me if I sound stupid, have only rudimentary tech understanding but have a lot of experience researching on the ent. Database corruption, isn't that the term? This luddite isn't sure of the full technical meaning but it sure sounds like what I have seen.
The reason this sort of gets my goat, my pet peeve about it, is that what they did shows no conception of what a blog is! Hello, purported blog software salesman and installers! Guess what? A blog is a diary! Most people would expect that you want that accessible by the name of the diarist first and foremost, and then in chronological order, you know, like a blog, a diary! Seems to me like they just don't get that concept in the way this whole thing has been installed. And these people that did the job here are going around selling themselves as blog specialists.
One of the problems is that I believe management here is happy with what they can do on the TPM home page, that the unsolved problems are in TPMCafe. They got what they wanted for TPM home page and ability to have fancy cross-linking to the subdomains, the wire feeds, and the video and stuff, to do a complex front page. I read somewhere an article on Josh and his plans that the video links are strong money makers, too.
You know, long ago and many times they said they were going to give us more than 10 recent comments per user and 10 recent posts, they said it several times, too. And now for a couple of months, you hear nothing. I suspect the taxonomy mess is the reason.
P.S. Oh, Andrew's post on the old Reader Blogs being off-line in a beta database is still easy to find on his user page, it's here:
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/05/02/we_need_you/
I did sign up for that and went there and looked at it, it's a mess in my opinion. There's no rhyme or reason or much sorting of any kind. You can't find anything by user name. I wrote the guys in charge an email asking "how do I find anything, what I saw, it makes no sense." I never got an answer. I know user Tom Wright also never got an answer from them after looking at the beta.
June 18, 2008 12:24 AM | Reply | Permalink
addendum:
when I said they changed urls on contributor blogs, I meant to say they changed them without providing forwarding. I realize that urls can get changed in transfer, but I've seen evidence they didn't do it correctly.
June 18, 2008 12:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'd be very happy just to have a preview function. That's likely to be a an easier-to-do front-end job than editing.
Besides, post-post editing seems like cheating. With preview, you can see what you're gonna post, then decide whether or not to go on-record with it. After-the-fact editing may invite substantive changes, not just corrections of grammar, spelling, or format errors.
The immutability of hitting send should give one pause. Just like sending e-mail, right?
June 17, 2008 11:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
I've experienced every one of the complaints listed above. It's the inconsistency that bugs me the most (as Michael Powe describes). There's just no rhyme or reason for something I thought was supposed to be based on logic.
I have to add my vote to the "it's just not a priority for them" bloc.
June 17, 2008 11:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
The blog editing is awful, the signing in is awful. On the flip side, I used to love Huff Post but they have outgrown the comment phase, and I don't even bother. Now that they are screening comments it takes forever to even see yours let alone the replies. I prefer this anyday. Also, quite a few bright people on here, and I learn things.
So, I would at least suggest that they correct the sign in and blog edit situation.
PS: Checked out reddit, hated that!
June 18, 2008 12:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'd add a comment of agreement, but complaining seems to have no effect, so I won't.
June 18, 2008 12:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
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