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President of Shell Oil says a barrel of oil ought to cost $35 to $65 right now.

If you're done being distracted by trolls who tell you Obama is going to invade Pakistan or deserves to lose because he won't singlehandedly veto the FISA bill here's something you really ought to pay attention to.

Check out the testimony yesterday on CSPAN about the Enron loophole.
This is the provision that has allowed speculators to game the market
and inflate the price of oil to double what it ought to be. The
president of Shell Oil says a barrel of oil ought to be $35 to $65
right now. This is the kind of thing you ought to be paying attention to. 

Phil Gramm, McCain's top economic advisor snuck that provision it into a huge omnibus
spending bill in December 2000 at the end of the session. There probably wasn't a Dem
senator or anyone in the Clinton administration who even knew that
version of the bill was in the package.

Go to:
http://www.c-span.org/

And scroll down to:
House Energy & Commerce Subcmte. Hearing on Energy Prices: Panels One & Two June 23, 2009

House Energy & Commerce Subcmte. Hearing on Energy Prices: Panels Three & Four June 23, 2009



Comments (62)

Thanks for the links, Mark. I'll check it out.

I could see speculation leading to unreasonably high prices if the 'speculators' were paying more and more for futures, like parents wanting Cabbage Patch Kids for Xmas. But they aren't.

This morning's WSJ says that so-called 'swap dealers', who represent about 30% of the market, generally hold as many short as long positions, meaning that they have as many bets for the prices to fall as to climb. How does that raise the price?

What the WSJ calls 'physical hedgers' refiners and such, that actually use the oil, hold another 40% of the paper. Why would they want to raise the prices of their raw material?

The remaining 30% seems to be in the hands of investors that have been advised to move away from risky, over-valued stocks to safer commodities. What control do they have over the price?

I attribute higher oil prices to two factors:

- Increasing demand hitting flat or declining supply.

- The lack of a real swing producer to flood the market.

Donal,

First, citing data from the Wall Street Journal and treating it as objective truth is the functional equivalent of citing data from Goldman, Sachs and accepting it as unbiased.

But let's assume for the moment that the WSJ percentages are accurate.

The 40% of the paper the Journal cites as being in the hands of "oil people," was what that market used to be about. Those were the players. Their decisions were made on cold, hard business facts, usually related to supply and demand. And the oil market maintained a relative homeostasis because of it.

The remaining 60% in the hands of "investors" and "swap dealers"--who the Journal claims and you repeat own as many short as long positions, and therefore exert a neutral (or zero) effect on prices, is a patently ridiculous assertion on its face; what's the point, tie up capital in a scheme designed NOT to make money?--didn't even exist just a short time ago.

It's the addition of these new players that has volatilized the oil market.

Iran's President has suggested that this is a conscience plan by the Western consumer nations to drive the price of oil up to a point where it becomes economically viable to produce non-Middle Eastern sources of energy, thereby making all that sludge under the sand nearly worthless. I don't buy that one either, but I give no more credence to Wall Street Journal reporting on Wall Street activity than I do to Armejehdinan (?) reporting on Iranian nuclear intentions.

Just as the public did not understand the dynamics of the Tech Bubble, or the Collateralized Bond Obligations (CBO) of the mortgage fiasco, so too is the public being hoodwinked and monetarily raped by people who do that for a living...a very good living, I might add.

I noted that the WSJ quotes those percentages (actually from the CFTC), not that they were objective truth, so let's limit ourselves to reality rather than spin.

The point is to have the *right* short and long positions, the ones that will prove correct and make money. If you know the market is rigged to inflate, your positions will reflect that advance knowledge.

IMO, the loss of a swing producer to stabilize the markets has opened the market to increased play, and there's no regulation that will change that.

Donal is correct.

Yes, that loophole is a Very Bad Thing, and should be closed, but the current price of oil right now has far more to do with supply/demand.

Speculation is going on, but it is not driving the sharp increase -- it's piggy backing.

Read http://www.theoildrum.com for more details.

Hello Mark. Speculation is playing some (probably limited) role. While it's always hard to pick out, you can see the same pattern across food commodities, metals & minerals Their motivation is clear also - Wall St is not a good place to invest lately.

The declining US dollar also drives up the price of oil - the US$ falls, other nations can spend the same amount of their currency to buy the same barrel of oil, only its US$ price is higher.

But underlying it all is NOT "cost" - which Shell is referring to. Yes, it may "cost" $35-$65 to get out of the ground (or oceanbed or oilsands.) As Donal said, it's the fact that global demand has finally risen to the point where it's close to supply - with few reserves left to turn on to dampen the price spikes. And with the short-term elasticity of oil being ~6%, you have to drive prices VERY high to knock down demand.

So even if we knock the speculators out, I'd doubt we see prices fall, even temporarily, much below $80-$100/bbl. And longer-term, it gets nothing but worse. World oil production's been stuck around 85-87 million bbls for some time. But China, India et al are gonna need 10's of millions of additional bbls - beyond replacing those we use today. Which is why we don't have to have hit any "oil peak" to be in trouble. Oil production could rise by 1.5 million bbls a year... but if demand rises 1.6 million.... the vice gets tighter, and prices could roar even higher. In short, $200 oil is entirely plausible, even if we knock out the speculative bubble aspects.

Thanks for the post, rec'd.

quinn esq,

Some of your numbers are a bit off, but I won't quibble with them here.

China and India are frequently cited as the primary suspects in the increase on the demand side for oil. There is no dispute that there demand is growing as they industrialize. But there are several other somewhat off-setting dynamics at play as well.

For example, China imports only 11-14% of the oil it consumes. Higher prices means that Chinese domestics supplies that are expensive to produce suddenly become economic when and if oil stays above $100/barrel or so. Therefore, the Chinese demand for oil, which it currently satisfies domestically by 85% or so, might be completely domestically supplied at the current prices. If so, the China-argument collapses.

The United States economy is today 40% less oil-dependant than it was during the oil-shock of the 1970's, though is absolute numbers the demand has increased. The trend, even before the latest surrender of the oil market to Wall Street, was for the Western democracies and Japan to move toward economies less oil-based, less heavy manufacturing and so on.

Scapegoating emerging economies like India and China is a politically shrew ploy by the masters of rationalization that Wall Street employs: the "analysts." They served their purpose nobly during the Tech Bubble and are doing so now in the service of the Oil Bubble.

FB

Thanks FB. Your two arguments are:

1. That China MAY meet it's increasing demand through increased domestic production. That's possible. I don't believe that to be the case right now, however. Same with other nations, like India. Imports are up, I believe.

2. That the US economy is 40% less dependent on oil nowadays. Question. I think you'll agree that much of the US manufacturing base has been moved offshore. How many barrels do you think are embodied in those increased imports of manufactured goods? As you say, absolute consumption is still up, which is worrying enough... but what about if the costs of oil are actually in all that steel, plastic, cars, etc. that we import today?

Thanks.

qe,

I do not have that info.

And I am not trying to say that oil is still a critical necessity to our economy.

What I am saying is that it is not as critical as it was during the 1970's and, most important, I am absolutely convinced that the current barrel price is composed 60% of Wall Street innovations.

For example, just 3 or 4 years ago (I may be off by a bit), investments in Oil Index Funds was something like $9 Billion; today it's $240 billion! That increase is in effect an increase in the demand side, not for actual oil, but for oil futures contracts.

It's not an easy concept to grasp or describe, but it's net effect is increases in the price of oil. Oil has become "securitized," just as mortgages did. The futures contracts are derivatives of the real commodity, oil.

I have not the intelligence, resources or time to fully explore the topic. But what we are seeing in the transformation of oil as a commodity valued for its "use" value being transformed into a commodity--like common stock shares--being transformed into a commodity valued for its "exchange" value.

The net result, be it for corn, wheat or rice, is a disaster for all but the Wall Street pros, of which I was one in my youth.

FB

Fully agreed that the speculators have driven oil and a lot of other commodity markets, nuts. Food being one where a lot of people will, and are, dying, but what the heck, eh? they got their 20% ROR's. Full agreement there.

I'd only say it probably costs $60-$70 maybe to pump this amount of oil (marginal cost), and maybe $20 is US currency decline. So I'd give $40 maybe, to speculation. 1/3. Still far too much, I think we'd agree.

Speculators cannot by themselves make prices go up or down. But they can exaggerate movements, and in the current environment of escalating demand, speculators and traders make price increases bigger than they would otherwise be.

I disagree on the supply/demand influence... there is plenty of oil and it's readily available for recovery. The future demand of emerging countries is currently being matched by reductions in Europe and the US. The net increase is about 1/2 of a percent per year of total volume at the 85% current worldwide production capacity mark/year. Increases in demand are scheduled to be met without incident utilizing inventories scheduled for delivery in early '09. Refineries are operating at 5.6% below last year's levels at this time and there is close to a 40 million barrel surplus, domestically, as of 1/08... in addition, this does not account for any SPR scheduled shipments nor does it account for the 8.8 million barrels that were cancelled for domestic delivery in April (because of the surplus).

..."Peak" predictions are part of the propaganda, too. I suggest, like everything else that smells in Denmark, that you follow the money for the real story. We are being hoodwinked by some of the creepiest and slimiest profiteers in history, and they operate without borders, laws, or conscience.

The mother of all conspiracies.

A lot of wishful thinking there, CP.

No need for conspiracy thinking. Finite resources, wasteful consumption, and realities of geology lead us to recognize that eventually world oil production will peak, and then fall. We haven't been preparing for that day. We should be. Oh and PS looks like that day of reckoning is actually here right now.

Lehman Brothers, a Wall Street investment bank had said that the current oil price bubble was coming to an end. Michael Waldron, the bank's chief oil strategist, was quoted in Britain's Daily Telegraph on Apr. 24 saying, "Oil supply is outpacing demand growth. Inventories have been building since the beginning of the year.”

If there's plenty of oil, why are they mining tar sands in Canada?

for the same reason they have been mining it since the 1940's... money.

Centerpunch, I dig the hat - and some of the arguments.

I agree, there's a whole lotta profiteering going on - same as in food, mining & metals. And the same sleight of hand arguments that "it ain't us" are being heard there too. But no more than $30/bbl... $50 at absolute most, I'd guess.

But the oilsands produced almost nothing until the last decade. And what's going on there now is mindboggling. Companies are sinking in $6 billion to produce 60,000 bbl/day plants. And it's every single big company imaginable, with the Chinese jockeying to get in. The oilsands investments lined up are >$100 billion. That's a whole lot of big boys, small guys, nations and pension funds putting their money into operations that - if they actually felt oil prices could fall below $65 - would be lost.

I'm not arguing the oil peak line - because I don't (and I think we agree here) - really believe the PHYSICAL limits to oil are the key. But prices just WILL go up, and a long way, if demand even gets CLOSE to supply. Whereas we once maybe had reserve margins of 4 million bbls/day, we've probably got less than 2 million today. Maybe some of that is because of hold-back, temporary pipeline disruption etc. - I donno - but it's too tight.

And developing nations just ARE cranking up consumption. And it's not just China or India. Oil-producing nations have a nasty habit of using their new wealth to subsidize their OWN consumption, so its soaring as well. Combined, all it has to do is CREEP up on production. Like you said, 1/2% a year. But that's enough, since the short-term elasticity of oil is so low.

If you wanna run some worrying math, just compare Mainland China to Taiwan or South Korea - look at population and then at oil consumption per capita. If we even assume that SOMEDAY China will reach the per capita consumption levels of Taiwan and South Korea TODAY, the world needs to add 40-50 million bbls of oil a day. No way. So - forgetting speculation and oil peak - the question for America is does it want to be in a decades-long bidding war with the rising middle classes of these nations.

Me? I don't. Time to get busy at home, getting off-oil.

Yes-- we need to reduce our dependence on any commodities that are not regulated, true enough.

My point is that there is a severe and disturbing reason for "unrealistic" price jumps like that which we are experiencing. There is undue pressure from the same folks that brought under-regulated securities bundling (real estate/mortgages speculation).

This is a SHAM... perpetrated by unregulated speculators that wield undue influence on the market. The fact is, everyone in the position to change the influence knows it, but they are profiting from it! Congress, Investors, Corporations, Financial institutions hell bent on recovering losses from mortgage speculation... EVERYONE knows it! The jig is up-- the shit will hit the fan, soon... and WE will be stuck holding the bag AGAIN!

How do they wield this influence?

Matt Simmons, and others, have stated that oil is still way too cheap. There are 336 pints in every barrel of oil. So oil at $140 a barrel, is roughly selling for $0.42 per pint. Gasoline at $4.00 gallon costs $0.50 a pint. Diesel at $4.80 a gallon costs $.60 a pint. That's less than a 16 oz bottle of almost any carbonated beverage, and some filtered waters. Given the work that oil, diesel or gasoline will do for you, they seem undervalued to me.

mbf,

Speculators most assuredly can "by themselves" make prices go up or down.

Who do you think took Juniper Systems company stock from $5 to $235? Clear thinking, investors?

Who do you think took a $65K San Diego condo up to $250K in 5 years?

In fact, no group but speculators can move markets this radically.

The problem now is that we are not dealing with stock or condo prices; we are dealing with absolute necessities like oil, corn, rice, wheat and so on.

FB

If there's plenty of oil, why are they mining tar sands in Canada?

Because they can do so profitably.

You yourself said The remaining 30% seems to be in the hands of investors that have been advised to move away from risky, over-valued stocks to safer commodities.

Quinn says:
So even if we knock the speculators out, I'd doubt we see prices fall, even temporarily, much below $80-$100/bbl.

You guys seem to be making my point. Investors want to move away from not only risky, over-valued stocks they want to move away from risky way over-valued Wall St. banks and brokerage houses that may go bust at any time because of the credit crisis they created. Hell some of these banks and brokerage houses are speculators themselves chasing the biggest fastest bucks they can hoping they can get in and cash out before they crash.

Yep. Money is fleeing Wall St, T-Bills and anything else at risk of the US $ or further financial "surprise."

Which is why Western Canada right now has the most buoyant economy in the Western World. There is just NO unemployment there, immigrants are surging, and property values going nuts. Why? Because they have 1/2 a continent, very few people, and they have enormous quantities of oil, gas, gold, nickel, potash, wheat, you name it. All of which have been going nuts. And the $ is pouring in not just through speculation, but direct corporate investment, and through pensions funds and such.

I mean, if you had enormous amounts of oil, that stayed fixed under your feet, in a stable country next to the US, no worries about Nigerian rebels or Chavez or Iran, wouldn't you? Your only real risks are that oil goes below $65, and that your cost overruns go too too nuts.

If it is profitable to mine, and cook tar sand, burning natural gas to do so, just to make synthetic oil, that says something about the availability of crude oil that can be pumped and refined as is.

Yes, investors want to move away from risky stocks to commodity futures that aren't likely to lose their value. I can't see that doubling the price of those commodities.

This is more insidious than simply supply and demand. Certainly China and India have something to do with the $$$oil but not the sole factor. Citigroup is not just your banker. They dabble in energy commodities. I guess they have to offset subprime/mortgage losses somehow.

Traveler's Group owned Phibro at the time of the merger. Despite the fact that Phibro has provided Citigroup with $2 billion in revenue over the past three years, the 205-page annual report for Citigroup in 2007 carries only the following one-sentence footnote on commodity income that acknowledges the existence of this company: "Primarily includes the results of Phibro Inc., which trades crude oil, refined oil products, natural gas, and other commodities."

Related article link: http://www.alternet.org/workplace/88995/?ses=75a11ea07c13287f5515b45c6fcb6d0a

It's a triple conjunction (at least.) Supply & demand... speculation and fleeing Wall Street.... & the US $'s decline. Just the recent 15% fall in the $ adds around $20/bbl if I do my math right.

Which is what half the world tried to tell the US "financial regulators" (my new favorite oxymoron.) They went ape-shit in lowering interest rates to try and bail out the subprime/bank mess.... and the risk always was that others would then step back and say, "Do I really want to invest in a place with 2% returns on "safe" investments ... a financial sector falling to hell... the dollar weak as hell... massive trade & federal deficits ... and a likely (real) inflation rate that's going to hit 6% to 8%." Errrrr. No. No thanks. And so, it's made these OTHER problems - like oil prices - worse.

The regulators wouldn't clean up the mess before, the gov't wouldn't bring down the deficit, and now the world is being asked to keep paying the tab? Errr.... "invest?" Sorry. Like the banks and others, they're gonna hedge themselves - out of the US. I mean, seriously, would YOU buy US Treasuries right now?

Its all tied together. The more I try to disentangle this mess the more I come back to the same point, bank deregulation. The architect and facilitator of this coupe de grace was Phil Gramm.

He greased the skids for Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act and Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000. This has placed this country (the labor-wage earning schmucks) on much weaker ground in a competitive global economy.

Any idiot that votes for McCain deserves what they are going to get economic roadkill.

Here's more: http://www.alternet.org/election08/87999/

For those with limited time, here's the summary:

--Gramm serves as co-chair of the McCain 2008 presidential campaign. As one of the candidate's chief economic advisers, he is mentioned as a possible secretary of the treasury in a McCain administration.

-When his new party won control of the United States Senate [1990's], Gramm rose to chairman of the Senate Banking Committee, where he was able to put his anti-regulation views into law. The Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act of 1999 repealed laws put in place after the Great Depression setting up protective barriers between commercial banks, investment banking firms, and insurance companies.

-Financial wizard Warren Buffett has labeled the risky new investment instruments Gramm unleashed "financial weapons of mass destruction." They have fed the subprime mortgage crisis like an accelerant.

-While the nation's investment bankers are paying a heavy price for their unbridled greed (in billions of dollars of write-offs), Gramm has fared quite nicely. He currently serves as a vice president at UBS AG, a colossal, Swiss-owned investment bank, the post, no doubt, a thank you for assiduously looking out for Wall Street interests during his 23 years in public office.

-Gramm's cozy Enron Corp. connections. Not only did CEO Ken Lay chair Gramm's 1992 re-election campaign, but Gramm's wife, Wendy, earned $50,000 a year as an Enron director from 1993 to 2001 (not counting perks that included stock options). Meanwhile Gramm pushed the company's aggressive -- and ultimately self-defeating -- political agenda to escape government scrutiny.

-A more notorious feature of the modernization act was the "Enron loophole," which allowed energy trading to escape federal oversight. It was Enron's electronic trading that led to the California electricity crisis of 2000 and 2001, as well as Enron's own demise.

-Wendy Gramm, the senator's wife, who served on the commission [Commodity Futures Trading Commission] afrom 1988 to 1993. Shortly after her resignation, she was welcomed onto the Enron board of directors, where she would ensconce herself on the happily deaf-blind-and-mute audit committee.

-Greenberger predicts that the fallout from Gramm's legislation will continue to grow, with capital drying up for all kinds of borrowing, including student loans.

-While McCain has promised to end congressional earmarks, Gramm, the legislator, once bragged, "I'm carrying so much pork, I'm beginning to get trichinosis."

I cannot emphasize this enough. This guy is in line to become the Secretary of Treasury in a McCain administration. McCain was in Houston, Texas this week giving an energy speech to Oil and Energy Executives. The picture that emerges when you start connect the dots is obvious.


This oil mess is a sham... We are being fleeced of the last bit of expendable/discretionary income we have left. We are in debt up to our asses, with overvalued assets and stagnant wages while inflation eats us alive as we stand dumfounded with hopelessness. We are fed fear and divided into sub-classes, wedged apart by hateful idealists... were does this lead? I don't know... But I do know it's a sham, and the name of the rose is our own ignorance.

Amen! Somebody has to pickup the tab for the real estate - mortgage bubble.

All this renewable energy talk by McCain is blowing smoke up my green/sepia ass.

At the possible expense of your thinking of me as a troll, I thought I'd let you know that I found Obama's weak-kneed acceptance of the FISA bill to be appalling. Does that mean he "deserves to lose"? Not in a race against McCain, certainly, but it does mean that one can have much less enthusiasm for the prospect of his being President. As for the price of oil, why should I accept that it ought to be as high as $35 to $65 right now. It was about $17 when the US occupation of Iraq began, and we were promised that the occupation would drop the price to $5. Even at $35, we are being scammed. And Obama's response to the FISA bill is a scam also, even if I may yet vote for him with McCain as the horrible alternative. But we're still playing the lesser-of-the-evils game here.

Its hard to get someone's attention on FISA (which I agree is a cave) when their home is being foreclosed and they can't put gas in the car to go elsewhere.

I am sorry - but I think the idea of $17/Barrel oil is never going to come to pass unless there is a serious economic crash. And if that happens, you will probably not be posting on any internet blogs and will yearn for life as it was before the crash.

Whether the current oil price is manipulated or not, the cost of producing oil will not be going down anytime soon. Oil is getting harder to produce, and the rate at which it is being produced is declining. New finds are also declining and the result is an overall flat line production curve that will begin declining if there is not serious investment in holding it flat.

This means that habits will have to change until we find a new source of transportation fuel that can handle the American Dream strewn across the globe. It also means that the arbitrage of high oil price versus recovery costs is focusing on the gap between supplies and demand in the future. Sure we can produce more oil in more places, but the time line required to bring it into the production stream coupled with the technology cost and high risk of failure (or lower than expected recovery rate) means that oil will not be dropping soon. It might settle into the $70-100 range if demand dropped, but only time will tell on that. On top of all of that you also are facing the fact that as we dredge the bottom of the barrel (bad pun) the oil we recover will require new refineries and modifications to the old ones - refining is a specific process and geared to a specific crude. The crude that is left is dirtier and there is not much refining capacity for it. As I understand it - some refineries are paying premiums on the sweet crude of yore - that means beyond the current price we are belly-aching about for the aforementioned reason.

The only speculation that I see is the cross roads between the new carbon constrained market and the perceived cost of creating renewable fuel sources.

What do you want - cheap oil or a "green" and renewable fuel source? Because without high oil prices, the other will not manifest.

Of course everyone prefers green and the new market forces may end up forcing the much needed development drive.

The point is that the price of all commodities has gone through the proverbial roof since 2000. You can review Michael Masters testimony to the Committee on Homeland Security here:

http://hsgac.senate.gov/public/_files/052008Masters.pdf

This overall rise is clearly out of proportion to historical trends, even compared to the oil shock of the 70's. It is however very coincident with the Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000 that was introduced by sleight of hand by McCain's buddy Senator Phil Gramm. The combined effect with the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act of 1999 has been a magical fleecing worthy of a Houdini performance.

These people have a hand in our collective pockets and nobody seems to notice. Meanwhile, we are arguing about Michelle, Cindy and bullshit like PUMA.

This election is a no brainer unless you are on the board of a major international bank. Wake the fuck up people.

avatar

Oil is never going to sell for $35 a barrel again, and probably not $50. That is why General Motors and Ford are closing SUV factories. Frankly, it is about time Americans faced up to the fact that $2 gas is history. We need a real energy policy.

We've always needed an alternative energy policy, but we don't need to be held-up at gunpoint to get it. YOU have a responsibility to govern your own consumption... Have you woken up? and when?

To be "frank", many Americans HAVE been aware of alternatives but there is no substantial supply chain established and they are left with conventional energy offerings by a shrinking pool of suppliers. It is my view that innovation has been strangled in the crib to maintain status quo. Are you an American? I, for one, am proud that Americans have adopted many sustainable technologies without having to be "forced" to, aren't you?

How do you know what oil will sell for in the future? $2 gas is not necessarily history... only time can tell what will happen to correct the markets.

Yes, you do need to be held up at gunpoint to get it. You've had 30 years to get off your asses and lower your oil consumption or get off oil completely, because it is clear to anyone with non-negative IQ that eventually oil is going to run out. You did absolutely zilch. So don't start whining now about how unfair the world is.

You Moron, Oil is nowhere near running out and you are sheep's raped ass for believing it. YOU are doing absolutely zilch because you are a fool for being led by the nose to be sheared.

You are also a dickhead for for being wrong about thirty years... we didn't need to reduce consumption because there was no NEED, except to deny others who were/are unduly profiting from yours and others ignorance to the FACTS.

My IQ is 152 as tested, making you WRONG AGAIN.

What have YOU done to reduce YOUR country's consumption, smart ass?

Piss-Off

Very convincing! Not.

Really, because most reputable oil engineer's don't agree. They have been predicting Peak Oil for years. Some work for oil companies, some work for governments, but all came to the same conclusion - oil will run out someday soon.

Actually, I don't think oil will completely and irrevocably run out anytime soon. But that's not really relevant of course - we are now at a point where demand begins to markedly outstrip supply. Because supply is highly unlikely to dramatically rise anytime soon, all this means that the price has to go up until the demand goes down far enough to match the supply.

Of course it doesn't take IQ 152 to realize that this was going to happen. You have a limited resource, you keep using it, it's going to run out.

How do you explain the rise in price of all commodities across the board not just oil, ie food/agriculture, metals, oil etc...
Are people in China and India suddenly hungrier in the last year and half?

No. They have more money. In other words, they are now competing harder against Americans (and the rest of the world) for the same limited resources.

All those other commodities (as well as just about every single other thing we buy and sell in our modern world) depends on oil for transportation to their target markets. Oil goes up means everything goes up. Cause and effect.

That's a fantastic line of argument in idealist utopian world where all Americans are the moral leaders of the free world. But we don't live there. The preponderance of people--even Americans--get motivated when they are forced. I have to admit this even in my own life.

So in your argument, for instance, we were forced to recycled newspapers and plastic? I remember making the choice independently...

If you read the post you will notice that I said "Many Americans" .


You and others take liberties with written words that are plainly in your face, yet you are still ignorant of their meaning. I now understand what I am up against. I didn't sign-up for teaching reading comprehension 101, but I'll play your silly game.

Thanks for the O'Reilly line of argument ("many say..."). I'm talking about sheer numbers. Throwing away or recycling newspapers has little-to-no obvious effect to the average American financially speaking. Energy is apples; newspapers are oranges. It doesn't cost you much to recycle (especially when your city provides curbside pickup), but it does cost a great deal to make sustainable energy choices. But beyond that, your focus is all wrong. If you want the infrastructure to support new choices, you have to put a gun to the head of capital to make it happen. You just do. We live in a free market system. Deal.

On the newspaper front, Sheer numbers is what makes it work. "Little to no" effect you say? I beg to differ.

Again, If you could read and COMPREHEND what you read, you would see that I made the same argument you did regarding alternatives to oil and infrastructure. The difference is that you seem satisfied to take it in the ass, and I choose to make YOU aware of the FACTS so others that don't like to take it in the ass can make an educated decision as to remedy.

"We've always needed an alternative energy policy, but we don't need to be held-up at gunpoint to get it. YOU have a responsibility to govern your own consumption... Have you woken up? and when?" ie; we choose by market forces. When market forces are conducted in an "unfair" playing field choices are limited. Until people like YOU are educated to the FACTS, you are unable to affect the market because our choices will be LIMITED. Understand?

For your benefit, I will repost the previous (above) comment:

"Yes-- we need to reduce our dependence on any commodities that are not regulated, true enough.

My point is that there is a severe and disturbing reason for "unrealistic" price jumps like that which we are experiencing. There is undue pressure from the same folks that brought under-regulated securities bundling (real estate/mortgages speculation).

This is a SHAM... perpetrated by unregulated speculators that wield undue influence on the market. The fact is, everyone in the position to change the influence knows it, but they are profiting from it!"

This is my CORE argument. There is severe misunderstanding of the facts on your part as well as others who have posted here. There is an untruth being perpetuated as a basis for arguments, mainly, that oil has peaked, is close to peaking, or is diminished to the point that demand is outpacing supply. If your argument that 200 plus years of supply (factoring in increased demand) is a finite supply, I would agree with you on that point. If however, you feel that an immediate overhaul of energy systems is warranted to the economic detriment of those at the bottom of the pecking order on the scale we are now experiencing, then I would react as I have (above) and call others dickheads and morons for being led to a needless slaughter.

Yes, we live in a free market society that is rigged, not free market... This is the argument, do you understand? My point was to quell the noise of ignorance on the subject... the very ignorance that keeps us in the position of a "rigged" market. If technologies were not stifled by active sabatoge and unlawful influence, and a free market were to be allowed to thrive, alternatives would be in place NOW at a substantial level. So much so, that I would argue that Gas would be less than $2 per gallon.

I would be interested in understanding how you came about identifying 200 years worth of oil supplies?

As for capital needing to have a gun held to its head - perhaps the previous poster went about making the point poorly - this is not far from the truth. Capital often needs to be coerced into doing something that is beneficial for society despite a perceived lack of returns. Highway system anyone?

Green Tech/Fuel is getting investment because of the belief that there will soon be a regulatory (US) system that will mandate its profitability. And that loops right back around into the price of oil.

Don't be too sure about the price of gas. Remember that a large portion of the run-up in price is really a devaluation of the dollar. It's trading today at $1.56 to 1 EUR. Five years ago it was at parity. That means that $4 gallon of gas would cost about $2.75 if you were buying it with 2003 dollars.

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mans best is correct. In 2000, when I was in Australia for the summer Olympics, I could buy an Australian dollar for about 44 US cents, now the Aussie $ is about double that, 90 cents. I also noted the Sydney airport made LAX look like a piece of crap, which it is, good for 1955 but not 2000-emblematic of much of America's infrastructure.

Americans don't seem to realize that there are consequences to the choices they make for their leadership. Electing incompetent shoddy dissembling leaders and starting endless and unnecessary wars, has the outcome of inflation and neglect of needs on the home front.

out of the loop you are a troll. Please take your arguments to one of the many other threads that are about FISA where you can stamp your feet and hold your breath turning blue until you've proven to the whole wide world what a superior person you are.

Great discussion. How does the fact that many oil exporting nations are limiting their exports in a response to peak oil production coming and going?

I read a book a few years ago called The End of Oil and it mentioned pretty much everything the more educated posters are mentioning here. One thing was that as production has been declining, exports have declined at a faster rate. That what we assumed would be the result of peak oil production has actually been magnified greatly by oil exporters closing down the spigot.

Somehow, I have to think that factors in to this somehow as well. This movie was pretty good and interviewed all kinds of experts.

They call that spigot-closing the Export Land Model.
Check out http://graphoilogy.blogspot.com/ for more.

Way over my head, but I'll take your word for it. :O) Did I get it essentially right in layman's terms?

Good link thanks. Are there any graphs/data on the anticipated change if we drill in McCain's head, I mean offshore and the Artic?

The more educated posters?

Here, educate yourself:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/6/15/185128/086/538/536448

More on the real reason behind high oil prices
By F. William Engdahl
Online Journal Contributing Writer


Jun 3, 2008, 00:24

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As detailed in an earlier article, a conservative calculation is that at least 60 percent of today’s $128 per barrel price of crude oil comes from unregulated futures speculation by hedge funds, banks and financial groups using the London ICE Futures and New York NYMEX futures exchanges and uncontrolled inter-bank or Over-The-Counter trading to avoid scrutiny.
US margin rules of the government’s Commodity Futures Trading Commission allow speculators to buy a crude oil futures contract on the NYMEX by having to pay only 6 percent of the value of the contract. At today's price of $128 per barrel, that means a futures trader only has to put up about $8 for every barrel. He borrows the other $120. This extreme “leverage” of 16 to 1 helps drive prices to wildly unrealistic levels and offset bank losses in sub-prime and other disasters at the expense of the overall population.
The hoax of Peak Oil -- namely the argument that the oil production has hit the point where more than half all reserves have been used and the world is on the downslope of oil at a cheap price and abundant quantity -- has enabled this costly fraud to continue since the invasion of Iraq in 2003 with the help of key banks, oil traders and big oil majors. Washington is trying to shift blame, as always, to Arab OPEC producers. The problem is not a lack of crude oil supply. In fact the world is in oversupply now. Yet the price climbs relentlessly higher. Why? The answer lies in what are clearly deliberate US government policies that permit the unbridled oil price manipulations.
World oil demand flat, prices boom . . .
The chief market strategist for one of the world’s leading oil industry banks, David Kelly of J.P. Morgan Funds, recently admitted something telling to the Washington Post, “One of the things I think is very important to realize is that the growth in the world oil consumption is not that strong."
One of the stories used to support the oil futures speculators is the allegation that China’s oil import thirst is exploding out of control, driving shortages in the supply-demand equilibrium. The facts do not support the China demand thesis however.
The US government’s Energy Information Administration (EIA) in its most recent monthly Short Term Energy Outlook report concluded that US oil demand is expected to decline by 190,000 b/d in 2008. That is mainly owing to the deepening economic recession. Chinese consumption, the EIA says, far from exploding, is expected to rise this year by only 400,000 barrels a day. That is hardly the "surging oil demand" blamed on China in the media. Last year, China imported 3.2 million barrels per day, and its estimated usage was around 7 million b/d total. The US, by contrast, consumes around 20.7 million b/d.
That means the key oil consuming nation, the USA, is experiencing a significant drop in demand. China, which consumes only a third of the oil the US does, will see a minor rise in import demand compared with the total daily world oil output of some 84 million barrels, less than half of a percent of the total demand.
The Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC) has its 2008 global oil demand growth forecast unchanged at 1.2 mm bpd, as slowing economic growth in the industrialised world is offset by slightly growing consumption in developing nations. OPEC predicts global oil demand in 2008 will average 87 million bpd -- largely unchanged from its previous estimate. Demand from China, the Middle East, India, and Latin America is forecast to be stronger but the EU and North American demand will be lower.
So the world’s largest oil consumer faces a sharp decline in consumption, a decline that will worsen as the housing and related economic effects of the US securitization crisis in finance de-leverages. The price in normal open or transparent markets would presumably be falling not rising. No supply crisis justifies the way the world's oil is being priced today.
Big new oil fields coming online
Not only is there no supply crisis to justify such a price bubble. There are several giant new oil fields due to begin production over the course of 2008 to further add to supply.
The world’s single largest oil producer, Saudi Arabia is finalizing plans to boost drilling activity by a third and increase investments by 40 percent. Saudi Aramco's plan, which runs from 2009 to 2013, is expected to be approved by the company's board and the Oil Ministry this month. The Kingdom is in the midst of a $50 billion oil production expansion plan to meet growing demand in Asia and other emerging markets. The Kingdom is expected to boost its pumping capacity to a total of 12.5 mm bpd by next year, up about 11 percent from current capacity of 11.3 mm bpd.
In April this year, Saudi Arabia's Khursaniyah oilfield began pumping and will soon add another 500,000 bpd to world oil supply of high grade Arabian Light crude. As well, another Saudi expansion project, the Khurais oilfield development, is the largest of Saudi Aramco projects that will boost the production capacity of Saudi oilfields from 11.3 million bpd to 12.5 million bpd by 2009. Khurais is planned to add another 1.2 million bpd of high quality Arabian light crude to Saudi Arabia's export capacity.
Brazil’s Petrobras is in the early phase of exploiting what it estimates are newly confirmed oil reserves offshore in its Tupi field that could be as great or greater than the North Sea. Petrobras says the new ultra-deep Tupi field could hold as much as 8 billion barrels of recoverable light crude. When online in a few years, it is expected to put Brazil among the world's "top 10" oil producers, between those of Nigeria and those of Venezuela.
In the United States, aside from rumors that the big oil companies have been deliberately sitting on vast new reserves in Alaska for fear that the prices of recent years would plunge on oversupply, the US Geological Survey (USGS) recently issued a report that confirmed major new oil reserves in an area called the Bakken, which stretches across North Dakota, Montana and south-eastern Saskatchewan. The USGS estimates up to 3.65 billion barrels of oil in the Bakken.
These are just several confirmations of large new oil reserves to be exploited. Iraq, where the Anglo-American Big Four oil majors are salivating to get their hands on the unexplored fields, is believed to hold oil reserves second only to Saudi Arabia. Much of the world has yet to be explored for oil. At prices above $60 a barrel, huge new potentials become economic. The major problem faced by Big Oil is not finding replacement oil but keeping the lid on world oil finds in order to maintain present exorbitant prices. Here they have some help from Wall Street banks and the two major oil trade exchanges -- NYMEX and London-Atlanta’s ICE and ICE Futures.
Then why do prices still rise?
There is growing evidence that the recent speculative bubble in oil, which has gone asymptotic since January, is about to pop.
Late last month in Dallas Texas, according to one participant, the American Association of Petroleum Geologists held its annual conference where all the major oil executives and geologists were present. According to one participant, knowledgeable oil industry CEOs reached the consensus that "oil prices will likely soon drop dramatically and the long-term price increases will be in natural gas."
Just a few days earlier, Lehman Brothers, a Wall Street investment bank had said that the current oil price bubble was coming to an end. Michael Waldron, the bank's chief oil strategist, was quoted in Britain's Daily Telegraph on Apr. 24 saying, "Oil supply is outpacing demand growth. Inventories have been building since the beginning of the year.”
In the US, stockpiles of oil climbed by almost 12 million barrels in April according to the May 7 EIA monthly report on inventory, up by nearly 33 million barrels since January. At the same time, MasterCard's May 7 US gasoline report showed that gas demand has fallen by 5.8 percent. And refiners are reducing their refining rates dramatically to adjust to the falling gasoline demand. They are now running at 85 percent of capacity, down from 89 percent a year ago, in a season when production is normally 95 percent. The refiners today are clearly trying to draw down gasoline inventories to bid gasoline prices up. ‘It’s the economy, stupid,’ to paraphrase Bill Clinton’s infamous 1992 election quip to Daddy Bush. It’s called economic recession.
The May 8 report from Oil Movements, a British company that tracks oil shipments worldwide, shows that oil in transit on the high seas is also quite strong. Almost every category of shipment is running higher than it was a year ago. The report notes, "In the West, a big share of any oil stock building done this year has happened offshore, out of sight." Some industry insiders say the global oil industry from the activities and stocks of the Big Four to the true state of tanker and storage and liftings, is the most secretive industry in the world with the possible exception of the narcotics trade.
Goldman Sachs again in the middle
The oil price today, unlike 20 years ago, is determined behind closed doors in the trading rooms of giant financial institutions like Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, JP Morgan Chase, Citigroup, Deutsche Bank or UBS. The key exchange in the game is the London ICE Futures Exchange (formerly the International Petroleum Exchange). ICE Futures is a wholly-owned subsidiary of the Atlanta Georgia International Commodities Exchange. ICE in Atlanta was founded in part by Goldman Sachs which also happens to run the world’s most widely used commodity price index, the GSCI, which is over-weighted to oil prices.
As I noted in my earlier article, (Perhaps 60 percent of today’s oil price is pure speculation), ICE was focus of a recent congressional investigation. It was named both in the Senate's Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations' June 27, 2006, Staff Report and in the House Committee on Energy & Commerce's hearing in December 2007 which looked into unregulated trading in energy futures. Both studies concluded that energy prices' climb to $128 and perhaps beyond is driven by billions of dollars' worth of oil and natural gas futures contracts being placed on the ICE. Through a convenient regulation exception granted by the Bush administration in January 2006, the ICE Futures trading of US energy futures is not regulated by the Commodities Futures Trading Commission, even though the ICE Futures US oil contracts are traded in ICE affiliates in the USA. And at Enron’s request, the CFTC exempted the Over-the-Counter oil futures trades in 2000.
So it is no surprise to see in a May 6 report from Reuters that Goldman Sachs announces oil could in fact be on the verge of another "super spike," possibly taking oil as high as $200 a barrel within the next six to 24 months. That headline, "$200 a barrel!" became the major news story on oil for the next two days. How many gullible lemmings followed behind with their money bets?
Arjun Murti, Goldman Sachs' energy strategist, blamed what he called "blistering" [sic] demand from China and the Middle East, combined with his assertion that the Middle East is nearing its maximum ability to produce more oil. Peak Oil mythology again helps Wall Street. The degree of unfounded hype reminds of the kind of self-serving Wall Street hype in 1999-2000 around dot-com stocks or Enron.
In 2001 just before the dot-com crash in the NASDAQ, some Wall Street firms were pushing sale to the gullible public of stocks that their companies were quietly dumping. Or they were pushing dubious stocks for companies where their affiliated banks had a financial interest. In short, as later came out in Congressional investigations, companies with a vested interest in a certain financial outcome used the media to line their pockets and that of their companies, leaving the public investor holding the bag. It would be interesting for Congress to subpoena the records of the futures positions of Goldman Sachs and a handful of other major energy futures players to see if they are invested to gain from a further rise in oil to $200 or not.
Margin rules feed the frenzy
Another added turbo-charger to present speculation in oil prices is the margin rule governing what percent of cash a buyer of a futures contract in oil has to put up to bet on a rising oil price (or falling for that matter). The current NYMEX regulation allows a speculator to put up only 6 percent of the total value of his oil futures contract. That means a risk-taking hedge fund or bank can buy oil futures with a leverage of 16 to 1.
We are hit with an endless series of plausible arguments for the high price of oil: A "terrorism risk premium;" “blistering” rise in demand of China and India; unrest in the Nigerian oil region; oil pipelines' blown up in Iraq; possible war with Iran . . . And above all the hype about Peak Oil. Oil speculator T. Boone Pickens has reportedly raked in a huge profit on oil futures and argues, conveniently, that the world is on the cusp of Peak Oil. So does the Houston investment banker and friend of Dick Cheney, Matt Simmons.
As the June 2006 US Senate report, The Role of Market Speculation in Rising Oil and Gas Prices, noted, "There's a few hedge fund managers out there who are masters at knowing how to exploit the peak oil theories and hot buttons of supply and demand, and by making bold predictions of shocking price advancements to come, they only add more fuel to the bullish fire in a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy."
Will a Democratic Congress act to change the carefully crafted opaque oil futures markets in an election year and risk bursting the bubble? On May 12, the House Energy & Commerce Committee stated it will look at this issue in June. The world will be watching.
F. William Engdahl is author of "A Century of War: Anglo-American Oil Politics and the New World Order" (PlutoPress), and "Seeds of Destruction: The Hidden Agenda of Genetic Manipulation" (Global Research). He may be reached at info@engdahl.oilgeopolitics.net.
Copyright © 1998-2007 Online Journal
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Housing Market Boom = Real Estate Speculation = Higher Prices for Homes

Housing Market Crash = Investors Run For The Hills = Crashing House Prices

Investors Run For Safety = Oil Futures Speculation = Higher Oil Prices

Pending Ethanol Boom = Move To Corn Futures Speculation = Higher Corn Prices, Dropping Oil Prices

You think it's weird paying $4 for a gallon of gas? That price will drop as soon as we're paying $5 for an ear of corn.

Can you imagine what would happen if Social Security was privatized and speculators had all those trillions to dump into the market? *shudder*

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There is an ignored elephant standing in the room as everyone argues about the 'real truth' behind the rise in the cost of oil.

That elephant is the reality that the oil buddies/toadies Bush and Cheney & CO. will be out of power in a few short months.

During those few short months, whatever additional profits could be squeezed out of the American public WILL be squeezed out, as well as any other perks possible for special corporate interests hurrying to get special treatment whether 'retroactive immunity' or enabling legislation on offshore drilling, or approval for environmentally questionable other projects. The squeeze at the pump is softening the public to allow further rapacious behavior down the road.

One such project is the REX natural gas pipeline which was begun by a couple of Enron fellows, and which is absolutely pushing to get final approval from the Bush installed FERC team before the end of the year of Bush's reign. [You won't read it from the Enron types themselves, but investors and allied natural gas companies are already counting on a near monopoly that will be increasing the cost of natural gas some 150% within a few years of completion of that project.

If you're done being distracted by trolls who tell you Obama is going to invade Pakistan or deserves to lose because he won't singlehandedly veto the FISA bill here's something you really ought to pay attention to.

First allow me to congratulate you on your courageous defense of this position in the actual debate on these topics.

Also accept my kudos on your pin-point accuracy in your depiction of my (trollish) stance on the topic.

Finally, you deserve nothing but admiration and respect for pointing out how much more important our money is than our civil liberties. Thank the Great Bwahooha that America's Founding Fathers felt the same way when they pledged to each other their "lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor."

You have pulled off the politico-ethico-philosophical hat trick.

Dear Tankard,

I hear your own thread calling you troll.

I hear your own thread calling you troll.
You forgot "evil," "demonic," "neoconservative," "Republican," and "sick." Shape up.

If I remember correctly Saudi Arabia said they'd increase production by 200,000 barrels earlier this year. Then upped it another 300,000 barrels in May. But they themselves have an increased domestic demand of 800,000 barrels.

If you read the Oil Drum you see a lot of pretty detailed tea reading about int'l demand, production, reserves and capacity. Good extrapolations but very murky due to the secrecy involved by all the major players.

That doesn't change the fact that big money is pouring into oil and commodity speculation and pushing prices up to unsustainable levels.

A perfectly sensible friend of mine, hardly a radical, opined a few weeks ago that capitalism
just might kill us. I'm starting to think she may be right. We've got to rein in the top 1% before they wreck everything.


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