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Obama commits to eternal war

Any agreement with the Palestinian people must preserve Israel's identity as a Jewish state, with secure, recognized and defensible borders. Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided," he said. (emphasis mine)

Israel calls the city its undivided and eternal capital, but this status has never been recognized internationally. Palestinians want East Jerusalem, captured by Israel at war in 1967, for a future capital." Barack Obama, speaking to AIPAC, June, 4th, 2008 - Reuters

First things first.

No Palestinian leader is ever going to sign any agreement giving an "undivided" Jerusalem to Israel, because if he did so he would be signing his own death sentence. Not only would no Palestinian ever accept it, no Muslim anywhere in the world would ever accept it either.

That means that with Barack Obama as president there is no hope for peace in the Middle East. Absolutely that simple.

One thing is to guarantee Israel's existence or threaten Iran with sanctions or even attack, and quite another is to commit the United States to a policy which mortally offends every Muslim in the world... forever and ever, amen.

By choosing to award a holy city disputed by two religions exclusively to one of the religions, Barack Obama, having no other legitimacy to make that gift than America's military force, is committing the United States of America to a role in a religious war, as a belligerent in that war. By making this commitment, Barack Obama is literally declaring jihad against Islam... forever and ever, amen.

Doing this legitimizes Islamic radicals and terrorists everywhere... forever and ever, amen.

By endorsing this position, which is totally outside International law, Barack Obama has forfeited any credibility he might have ever had to provide a new direction to American foreign policy.

Comments (35)

Now that's what's called extrapolation!

Jerusalem is, after Mecca, the holiest city for Islam. For the United States to award that city exclusively to the control of another religion is to declare eternal war on Islam. It might help pull in some votes, but sooner or later it will have tragic results.

Seaton, you are not the Cassandra of the political world.

Obama is awarding the possession of a city which is holy to two religions to one of the religions, with no other legitimacy to do so than military force. Now, is that being a belligerent in a holy war?

To guarantee Israel's existence or to threaten Iran are not religious questions, but to award the possession of Jerusalem to Israel is.

Your claim that Obama is proposing to award Jerusalem to the exclusive control of Israel is without foundation in his actual words. See my comment below.

It's home to 3 religions.

The conflict is not between the religions. But between governments. That is what's substantially left out of your argument. BTW, Zionism is not Judaism. In fact there is a an intense dismissal of Judaism by some Zionists.

The 3 religions co-exist and have been doing that for centuries.

Jerusalem has been a city of Israelis, Muslims, and Christians for more than 2000 years. Divided? It is a walled city, and is no more divided than New York is with its Chinatown, Soho, Italian areas, etc.

The divisions occur when there is constant war based on religion. I don't think Obama suggested that we do all we can to continue religious wars. I disagree that it should be the capital of Israel because it is one more cause for conflict, and it is also not geographically good as a capital city if (for no other reason) that it has these factions.

If there is peace in the middle-east there will also be peace in Jerusalem.

Did Obama dispute that? I didn't think so.

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More importantly, Obama is granting possession of land in contravention of international law--acquisition of land is inadmissible from war (UNSCR 242).

Obama's problem, to wit, is expressed in today's Haaretz: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/990152.html

Apparently the Knesset is moving to declaring Jerusalem the capital of the Jewish people, that is, annexing the entirety of it for Israel.

Thus, despite Obama's die hard fans, his talk is not a matter of interpretation but a solidification of American policy behind the occupation.

This is no Zionist conspiracy. I just think Obama is--and will be--more interested in domestic political considerations than forging a lasting peace. The Palestinians factor very little into American political concerns and thus the conflict ill persist.

David, Obvious first point is that we can't "award" it to anyone. Second, where was he speaking and to who? How would you think he'd say anything else? Third, there are 3 religions that lay claim to the city. You forgot Christians.

Saying one thing in one place and another thing in another place is not a "Change We Can Believe In", really is it? Not exactly what you'd call a "profile in courage",no?

Am I missing something, or was that an incredibly stupid commitment to make?

Your analysis, and use of the term "exclusively", suggests you lack an understanding of some of the subtle and slippery diplomatic formulas in current use.

At the Taba Summit in 2001, for example, both sides accepted the notion of Jerusalem as an open city, and the Israelis accepted a proposal according to which Jerusalem would be the capital both states. Both sides accepted the idea of Israeli sovereignty over Jewish neighborhoods and Palestinian sovereignty over Palestinian neighborhoods. But this is presumably consistent with Jerusalem being an open city without any internal national borders or barriers. Thus Jerusalem would remain "undivided". In the end, Jerusalem would remain the undivided capital of Israel. It would also, and at the same time, be the undivided capital of Palestine. So no Palestinian has to give Jerusalem to the Israelis; and no Israeli has to give Jerusalem to the Palestinians.

n the end, Jerusalem would remain the undivided capital of Israel. It would also, and at the same time, be the undivided capital of Palestine.
Gee, now please explain to me the Mystery of the Holy Trinity.

Obviously under Obama's rules Israel would have sovereignty over East Jerusalem. The only way that Jerusalem could ever be an undivided city would be under international control.

Are you proposing the Jerusalem be divided?

If I were to propose anything, I would propose that Israel have an international status guaranteed by the UN and not be anyboy's national capital.

David proposes anything thats fascist oriented.

That's another thing that needs to be eliminated is the growing European Nazism that is in Jerusalem.

O, and the Vatican owns WAY too much land in Jerusalem.

Nothing is "obvious" here. Any possible settlement of the conflict that is politically realistic will clearly have to involve some very imaginative diplomatic formula regarding the status of Jerusalem, some way of assigning internal responsibility and control over different parts of the city without "dividing" it.

But even accepting your contention that the formula would have to put Jerusalem under some kind of international control or trusteeship, is it not perhaps compatible with that arrangement that the city under international control could also serve as the capital of a state? Or of two states? A capital city is just a city that houses a seat of government. Some states have no capital at all. Where is it written that a state's seat of government must lie within the sovereign territory of that state?

The city of Chandigarh is the capital of the two Indian states, Punjab and Haryana, but belongs to neither. Granted, in this case the states are, like US states, component parts of a single organized country. But that just means we need to find some way of creating a formal international model for something like the same arrangement.

Perhaps the city could officially fall under some kind of collective international sovereignty, with the international community then formally delegating perpetual administrative responsibilities of different parts of the city to Israel and Palestine, while recognizing Jerusalem as both the capital of Israel and the capital of Palestine.

Thanks for this additional data, Dan.

What's your understanding of why he said it?

I think he probably felt the need to clarify his position following some statements by his chief Middle East advisor, Daniel Kurtzer, in mid-May.

Got it. Thanks.

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Dan: The problem is that the sort of "pro"-Israel persons who attend AIPAC conventions surely read the term "undivided Jerusalem" to mean that Israel will retain sovereignty over Jerusalem. (See this website: http://www.onejerusalem.org/blog/index.asp) A peace deal is far less likely to occur if the Palestinians are prevented from obtaining their own capital in East Jerusalem, under their own sovereignty, or at the very least, shared sovereignty. I'm sure you're aware of all of this.

The problem, for me at least, is that one of the things that made me very much unwilling to support Clinton was what I saw as her excessive pandering on such issues. Now Obama may have been using the term more as you describe, in the sense of an "open city," but I'm sure that's not what the term means to many in the AIPAC audience.

I wouldn't go as far as David Seaton does - I still think Obama is by far the best of the three candidates we've been dealing with over the last months, and the most likely to help the parties come to an acceptable agreement, but I'm less sure of that than I was before he made this statement. I can easily live with the rest of his AIPAC speech, but why did he have to include that one sentence? In my view, he could have done what he needed to do to reassure those at AIPAC who may have doubted his willingness to support Israel as an important ally without it (or worse, believed him to be a secret Muslim). Please enlighten me if I'm missing something here.

Chill, everyone. The rhetoric to reality ratio on this issue is very high. I believe Richard Nixon also committed us to a one-China policy. Is there, in fact, one China?

Um, no.

Will Barack Obama personally dictate the terms of an accord between Israel and the Palestinians?

No.

So please take a deep breath, and focus on things that are more likely to make a difference in reality.

So please take a deep breath, and focus on things that are more likely to make a difference in reality.
The president of the US declaring Jerusalem (Al Quds)the undivided capital of Israel is likely to finally make more of a difference in reality than you might care to imagine.

Dan K's take on this statement makes way more sense than David's.
Obama has no standing to "award" anything to anybody. If there's ever a workable deal, it will involve some very, very hard bargaining, and what Obama said to AIPAC won't be a bargaining chip.
And please note a subtle nuance in Obama's statement: "Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided."
That is different from "must remain the undivided capital," which is the standard formulation used by Israeli (and most U.S.) politicians.
Despite which, from what I understand, the separation wall already actually cuts off some wholly Palestinian areas (villages or suburbs) that are officially defined as part of the city.
So much for "eternal, undivided."
Creative solutions are possible once the will exists. (Not yet, I might add.)
In one scenario, Israel might get to keep all of Jerusalem, while Palestine keeps all of newly demarcated Al Quds (which used to be known as East Jerusalem).
There are no internal barriers between the two, and some kind of bi-national municipal authority handles common services.
Yeah, I know all the arguments why this can't possibly work.
But Israel got out of Sinai, got out of South Lebanon, got out of Gaza, and is set to discuss getting out of the Golan. Some of those moves paid off.
A permanently garrisoned Eretz Israel is not going to fly as the solution to the country's security problems, nor to its social and demographic dilemmas.
Now that he has little to lose, Olmert said as much last week.
Was Obama pandering to AIPAC with his speech? Of course, he was -- as were Hillary and McCain. That's what AIPAC exists for; it revels in pander.
Could he have taken the opportunity to point out the many flaws in Israel's current policies?
Sure he could have, but he is not politically insane.
There may come a time when Obama has to knock some Israeli and Oalestinian heads together.
The start of his presidential campaign is not that time.
So, like Alex say, chill, David.

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The problem is the sensitivity of the topic. And for good reason. Read this: http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewForeignBureaus.asp?Page=/ForeignBureaus/archive/200806/FOR20080603e.html
It's a news article, dated June 3, 2008, discussing Israel's continued issuance of building permits to build more Israeli neighborhoods in Jerusalem, and the further conflict that's causing.

Israel announced on Sunday that it is planning to build 884 new apartments in two existing Jerusalem neighborhoods that are technically in the West Bank. Olmert said on Monday evening that the Israeli construction in Jerusalem is not inconsistent with the peace process, but the Palestinians insist that it is.

Under the heading "Standing with Israel against terrorism," Clinton's official policy paper, released last September and currently touted on her campaign website, states, "Hillary Clinton believes that Israel's right to exist in safety as a Jewish state, with defensible borders and an undivided Jerusalem as its capital, secure from violence and terrorism, must never be questioned." With the phrase "an undivided Jerusalem as its capital,"

McCain has made the same statement regarding Jerusalem.

Seaton, where ya been? You should stay there!

Now that Obama is firmly in place as the Dem nominee, I'm sure you will employ your vast expertise in global affairs to point out his naivete and inadequacy at every opportunity. Save yourself some time and effort and don't do it here.

He must.

For no one visits his proto-nazi, crypto-racist, blog.

This is disingenuous. You should be worrying about McCain's foreign policy, but you argue we should worry that Obama has re-stated conventional US policy.

Obama certainly does not argue that Israel should not negotiate---that is what Bush suggested. McCain is marrying himself to that bunch, and will end up with a foreign-policy team that reflects the failed GOP approach.

One thing is absolutely certain:

If we let Israel control our foregin policy we will have eternal war. The chief of Homeland Security is a dual Israeli-American citizen. Lieberman et al grovel to AIPAC, and just try to get elected without their approval.

Florida is controlled by two factions: the Jewsish vote and the Cuban vote. Wow! Two groups who do not exactly have the good of OUR country in mind.

It is time to have a grown-up in the White House who can actually be looking out for the good of our very own country!

I meant to say that those groups tend to have their own agendas in mind BEFORE the agenda of our country. I knew I'd get flack for it, but I do believe that our policies regarding Cuba and Israel as well, have been more favorable to Cuban-Americans' desires than that of our country. Same for many of our Middle-East policies regarding the Israel lobby.

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You are just a disgusting bigot, CVille Dem. I, and millions of American Jews who agree with me, have the interests of the U.S. very firmly in mind. Barack Obama paid tribute today to my friends and me who exercise their First Amendment rights to petition our government. If you want to cast aspersions on our loyalty, that is your First Amendment right, but I'm pleased that the Democratic nominee for President thinks you are a
idiot.

It is not bigoted to observe the truth: our embargo of Cuba represents 5 decades of a failed policy. The tiny island of Cuba is certainly no greater a threat than communist China, which we deal with (and borrow from) on a daily basis. Anyone with one grain of sense will acknowledge that we have more influence over countries that we DEAL with than those that we DON'T. And why don't we deal with Cuba? Because of a vocal group of Cuban-Americans who hold such a grudge that they don't care one bit about the big picture, (or what is best for the US, or even CUBANS, for that matter), and who threaten any politician who challenges them.

Refute that! I am not a bigot; I am a realist.

Second -- Why, other than to curry favor with AIPAC would Hillary Clinton have made her absurdly stupid and provocative comment about "obliterating Iran?" Was that in the US's interest? NO. If we had treated Israel as it deserves to be treated regarding their disgusting behavior towards Palestinians, this holy war would have been over 20 years ago. Who "benefitted" our policy? Certainly not the US, which is now hated throughout the Middle East because of our unconditional agreement with whatever Israel wants. The ironic thing is that Israel doesn't benefit either. They just stand on ceremony and declare themselves to be right. Problem is, they are wrong.

Bigot? No, I'm not. I'm also not blind, as you seem to be.

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