Mormons enter Calif. marriage fight
So says the Yahoo! News headline.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/po/mormonsentercalifmarriagefight;_ylt=Ao3UiXHep.KpFso3c06zFL2s0NUE
Church president Thomas S. Monson and his two top counselors call on Mormons to donate "means and time" to passing a constitutional ban Nov. 4.
A letter sent to Mormon bishops ... calls on Mormons to donate "means and time" to the ballot measure. A note on the letter dated June 20 says it should be read during church services June 29 ...
California Mormons -- there are more than 750,000, according to a church almanac -- have heard and heeded similar calls from their leaders before.
In 2000, a letter from the pulpit asked members to give time and money in support of Proposition 22, a ballot measure prohibiting California from legally recognizing gay marriages performed outside the state.
The blatant hypocrisy and shameless disregard for Mormon history shown by any LDS church leader or member who donates "means and time" to such efforts needs to be called out for what it is.
For those who've read articleman's post re Sen. Gordon Smith (R - OR), Gay Marriage, Early Mormons, and Davis v. Beason ...
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/06/sen-gordon-smith-ror-gay-marri.php
... you might remember this quote from Sen. Smith:
"Part of what I fear, as you start defining marriage -- we have a long history of doing that in this country, and my Mormon pioneer ancestors were the victims of that. They were literally driven from the United States in the dead of winter for following their religious beliefs. I don't want that coming back."
I share your fear, Sen. Smith. So, when are you and the leadership of your church gonna get out of the marriage-defining business?
Or are y'all still so traumatized from that 19th-century Establishment spanking of your naughty polygamous posteriors that you simply can't help yourselves when it comes to showin' the rest of America just how nice and assimilated you've become ... by gettin' out in front of the mob with your displays of disgust with the non-vanilla marriage flavor of our day.
A pox on all hypocrites.
There's a reason this topic is perpetually under discussion in the bloggernacle (the Mormon blogosphere): the leadership's anti-gay positions are cause for serious discomfort among thinking Mormons. Now it's the LDS leadership that needs to be discomfited.
June 24, 2008 11:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Just in case you didn't believe me about this bein' an endless topic of conversation among Mormon bloggers ... here they are pokin' fun at themselves and their proclivity:
Things We Can Argue About Other than Gay People
http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/06/things-we-can-argue-about-other-than-gay-people/
June 25, 2008 4:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
And just in case you come to this topic thinking that Mormons are a bunch of ignorant yahoos ... well, think again:
Institutional obsolescence, and other tales of romance and intrigue from the history book
http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=4586
June 25, 2008 4:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
And then there was this monster thread ...
BYU Changes Honor Code Regarding Homosexuality
http://www.mormonmentality.org/2007/04/12/byu-honor-code.htm
June 25, 2008 4:54 AM | Reply | Permalink
Gay Mormons Ask Church Leaders to Support Freedom and Equality in California
http://www.affirmation.org/media/2008_06_23.shtml
June 24, 2008 11:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Open Letter to California Mormons
http://www.affirmation.org/media/2008_06_24.shtml
June 24, 2008 11:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Affirmation Issues Statement on the May 2008 Ruling of the California Supreme Court
http://www.affirmation.org/media/2008_05_30.shtml
June 24, 2008 11:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Just in case some readers might've assumed my earlier reference to the bloggernacle was just some whimsical neologism of mine (Mormon Tabernacle + Blogosphere) ... no, it's real, it's out there, and Feminist Mormon Housewives is one of the better 'nacle sites:
http://www.feministmormonhousewives.org/?p=1860
And the 'nacle itself is neatly aggregated here:
http://www.ldsblogs.org/
Just FYI.
June 24, 2008 11:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
As long as I'm makin' introductions to the bloggernacle, this is what a 'conservative' 'nacle site looks like on the issue at hand (as opposed to a 'liberal' 'nacle site like FMH):
http://www.millennialstar.org/2008/06/24/supporting-the-churchs-position-on-ssm-part-2/
June 25, 2008 2:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
http://origin.sltrib.com/news/ci_9674302
The LDS have canvassed homes because of this issue. I'd suggest activists would do well to show up (preferably in Sunday best) outside LDS chapels on June 29th and politely ask Mormons to lay off the persecution.
June 25, 2008 12:29 AM | Reply | Permalink
Separation of church and state, as I've written before, is obviously not adhered to when the topics are marriage and abortion.
Gee, wonder if Romney is going to grab hold of this twister. Hmmm. Guess we'll find out soon enough.
June 25, 2008 12:38 AM | Reply | Permalink
Romney created his own lil' dust devil with this formulation of his from that big important speech he gave way back when:
"Freedom requires religion just as religion requires freedom."
Huh? Not even Romney could explain what that was supposed to mean, because it wasn't intended to be understood as anything, other than a big pander-bear hug from the Mormon, to make religious folks feel like, no matter what their religious beliefs, they were doin' the country proud just by dint of believin' 'em. Romney simply wrote them a free pass 'cuz that's what allowed him to ask for one in return. No questions asked. Like it should be. 'Cuz we're free.
So, anyway, whatever Romney's next big job in politics might be, I don't think he's gonna do much to help us sort out any of this. He'll aim for the opposite of clarity whenever it suits him, and in his case, that's almost always.
June 25, 2008 1:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
Romney on Falwell and the LDS ...
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2007/september/34.74.html
Lovely.
June 26, 2008 3:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
O/T, but I'm bummed I missed this:
Regina Thomas, LIVE-BLOGGING HERE! NOW!
http://www.eenrblog.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=1834
Oh well, at least I can link to the conversation that was had with Regina.
Back to dissin' Mormons who oughta know better.
June 25, 2008 12:50 AM | Reply | Permalink
While I'm O/T, might as well drop this in here on behalf of Cheryl Crist as well ...
______________________________
Hello, everyone! I am Cheryl Crist's campaign manager and I just wanted to take a moment to thank you for your support. We can feel that every day our campaign's momentum is building. Baird's vote on the FISA bill gave us a big boost over the weekend. We just attended the Clark County Democrats' Jefferson Jackson Dinner today, and the support for Cheryl was great!
Please continue to send what money you can. We have a relatively large district, geographically speaking, and with the high cost of gas it really ads up when going to events in every county. With your help, we can get some ads on the air, too!
If you live in the 3rd District, please join us in sign-waving and writing letters to the editor. We're also doing phone banking, tabling at farmers' markets and waving on street corners. There are lots of opportunities to contribute!
Thank you again, and keep spreading the word. We WILL replace a certain 'Bush Dog Democrat' this fall!
Best regards,
Kayla Saville
kayla@cristforcongress.us
www.cristforcongress.us
______________________________
GA-12 and WA-03 continue to be of interest. Cool.
June 25, 2008 12:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
" ... a rather telling political ad for Gordon Smith, a Republican senator (although you wouldn't know it from this ad) representing Oregon:"
http://www.openleft.com/showDiary.do;jsessionid=BF6B6ECEE972F1DC0C2FC78FFC498459?diaryId=6569
Maybe I should update Smith's quote from articleman's post:
Or somethin' like that.
June 25, 2008 1:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
O/T ...
Utah's Cannon out, Chaffetz in
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/6/25/2559/79577/480/541575
Some questions that came to mind after happening upon some alleged facts in comments at that dKos thread:
Is it true that Jason Chaffetz was once Utah state co-chairman of the Dukakis campaign?
Was his father really once married to Kitty Dukakis?
At this point, shouldn't liberals and conservatives both be equally tired of this kind of blatant bamboozlement?
Anyway, so does this mean that Bennion Spencer is our guy in UT-03?
http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,5143,695262377,00.html
http://www.bennionspencerforcongress.com/
My favorite link on Spencer's site is the one that purports to answer the question: "What is a Democrat?"
Because I think I understand why it's there: plenty of folks in his district have probably never actually met one - a real live Democrat, that is.
June 25, 2008 3:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
Utah Rep. Cannon ousted in Republican primary
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/2008/06/utah_rep_cannon_ousted_in_repu.php
BROCK VERGAKIS
AP News
Jun 25, 2008 01:00 EST
The Dem candidate's name is Bennion Spencer.
Here's to hopin' that ain't the only thing Vergakis got wrong in this graf.
June 25, 2008 10:54 AM | Reply | Permalink
Now that I'm done goofin' around, I'm gonna shush, and look forward to your comments.
I'd actually be deeply honored if any bloggernacle denizens were to show up here and grace TPMCafé with their thoughts on this topic.
June 25, 2008 4:48 AM | Reply | Permalink
Before I shush, let me present that invitation to the bloggernacle in the form of a question (since I was admittedly all over the place up top, as usual):
If, as with Prop. 22, LDS church members in California are again asked to canvass their neighbors in support of the church's position against gay marriage, what view would you take of activists on the other side of this issue who might deem it fair play to mobilize and park themselves outside LDS chapels on June 29th in a show of disagreement with your church's position?
June 25, 2008 5:24 AM | Reply | Permalink
Ain't part of the bloggernacle, but I believe in live and let live. What gays and lesbians choose to do is no disgrace to my marriage. What my wife chose to do is another matter.
June 25, 2008 8:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
For what it's worth, I've enjoyed reading your posts here. Cold comfort, I know.
June 25, 2008 1:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Could someone check the queue for lost comments? I submitted one several hours ago, and it's not showing. If it didn't go through, I guess I should resubmit.
June 25, 2008 12:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hey, Lila, if Kaimi's comment is stuck in moderation, pls release it. Whatever Professor Wenger has to say, I'd be totally thrilled to see him weigh in here.
Otherwise, Kaimi, pls resubmit. My ranting aside, I'd hoped that this thread might become an opportunity to hear from faithful, thoughtful Mormons on this issue ... and after all my trash-talkin', it's not as if it's gonna clutter the place up if your comment happens to post twice.
June 25, 2008 12:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
"it's not as if it's gonna clutter the place up if your comment happens to post twice."
Clearly, you haven't seen the comment yet. (grin).
I'll fire in a resubmit from my Word copy. (I wonder if it got flagged because it has several links -- I know Akismet sometimes flag those kinds of comments at my own blogs.)
June 25, 2008 12:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
No, you can't go laying blame on Akismet for this one. The weird glitch we have here at TPM is that you've got to first recommend my post before your comment will be allowed to appear.
I know, like I said, it's weird. But there it is.
June 25, 2008 12:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
Chino, they screen out posts with multiple links. She can get around that by breaking it into multiple posts, but don't put more than one link in at a time.
June 25, 2008 1:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hey, thanks for that. Good to know. Still, I liked my explanation better ... ;-)
By the way, what do you think of all this?
June 25, 2008 1:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, when in Rome . . .
Hope it works this time. If not, hey, I'll just blog it myself.
June 25, 2008 1:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
And we Romans are inveterate liars. Don't mind me, just post already.
June 25, 2008 1:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
As long as I'm hangin' out here, thought I'd pass the time and link to the latest from the bloggernacle:
California, Homosexuality and my Baptismal Interview
http://www.feministmormonhousewives.org/?p=1879
The worm is turning, folks. Because too many of us are too decent at heart for the charade to continue .
June 25, 2008 1:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
I will not be silenced! Live free or die!
Um, so, I give up. I went ahead and posted a version of my comment over at By Common Consent. It's at http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/06/same-sex-marriage-and-hypocrisy/ . Block that one, punks.
Now, I'm going to go storm the barricades. Liberte, fraternite, etc.
June 25, 2008 2:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hey, I guess it's my turn to get blocked! My comments ain't showin' up at BCC, so I'm gonna drop my latest reply in here:
Here's my take so far after reading your post:
RAF: Mormon defense of "traditional marriage" is problematic. (agreed)
Kaimi: Opposition to polygamy is just as problematic for gay marriage advocates. (agreed)
LDG: The LDS Church has decided to play offense on the gay marriage issue because, let's face it, a problematic defense of "traditional marriage" is still a defense. Were polygamy to become legal, well, I think the term is "instant nostalgia" ... (agreed? I don't know, but it's an interesting take on this)
So, yeah, hypocrisy on both sides, but I'm wonderin' if LDG hasn't hit on what's really behind the LDS Church's actions on this issue?
Also, I'm wonderin' - settin' aside talkin' 'bout "hypocrisy" for a moment - if anyone here might be interested to answer the question I invited the bloggernacle to answer?
That's not meant to sound belligerent. I think it's a fair question to ask.
June 25, 2008 11:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
These Morons want to prove that they're traditional marriage types. They're using their bigoted opposition to same sex marriage to create distance between themselves and polygamy.
Bigotry in the service of religion is still bigotry.
June 25, 2008 3:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'd agree that it ends up looking like a transparent attempt to build up traditional marriage cred.
At the same time, I wonder how gay marriage advocates might view the suggestion that their efforts are helping clear the way for the eventual legalization of polygamy? The recent California decision came with a footnote meant to reassure folks that it was not opening that door. I don't buy it and I wonder why it was necessary? I put 19th-century opposition to polygamy (which has carried through to today unabated) in the same bigotry basket as our waning 21st-century opposition to gay marriage. Bigotry, whether in the service of religion or in the service of the Establishment that Scalia types work to defend, is still bigotry, isn't it?
June 25, 2008 10:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree with you entirely. I have no problem with polygamy between consenting adults. It's none of my business.
But for mainstream Mormons who want distance from fringe Mormon polygamists, equating the two is good politics in another way: rather than framing the comparison as one of consenting adults doing what they want to do without harming anyone else, they frame it as a confluence of dangerous fringe cultures and, indeed, cults. A cynical and also successful ploy.
June 25, 2008 10:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well said. And I think you'd find plenty of mainstream Mormons who share our disdain for the cynical politics that looks to be driving LDS actions on the issue of gay marriage.
June 25, 2008 11:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sheesh. Akismet = on drugs. Kind of puts a damper on discussion.
Your comments are now out of the cage at BCC; we'll see if our Akismet filter eventually decides you're not a spammer.
June 25, 2008 11:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks, and thanks again for jumping in and making this interesting. I think I've still got two comments stuck in Akismet, but I see the first two got through. Cheers.
June 26, 2008 1:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
Heh, at first glance I thought the headline was:
My bad. I think
June 25, 2008 8:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Plenty of Mormons I know plan to vote for Obama. I'm not holding that up as proof of anything, but it does give me hope that we might be gettin' closer to bein' able to have discussions about topics like this without goin' all toxic on each other.
June 25, 2008 11:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree with this Mormon commenter about what an effective action might look like:
http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/06/same-sex-marriage-and-hypocrisy/#comment-184308
June 26, 2008 1:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
Tying up some loose ends ...
Here's the actual letter:
http://mormonstories.org/other/08028_00.pdf
I'm disappointed to see the overtly political message contained in this letter. And it makes several questionable assertions that would've been best avoided. Mormons deserve better leadership than this - they at least deserve not to be taken for fools and now they're gonna be stuck with a leadership that I'm afraid is gonna look terribly foolish and terribly uninspired after this gets decided. What a mess.
http://mormonmatters.org/2008/06/21/news-flash-lds-church-will-be-actively-opposing-gay-marriage-in-california-this-november/
June 26, 2008 2:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
In addition to possible non-member actions to counter this move by the LDS Church, there's this advice for members from Phouchg at Mormon Matters:
June 26, 2008 3:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
This coming Sunday, June 29, in California….
http://theculturalhall.com/?p=244
June 26, 2008 3:32 AM | Reply | Permalink
http://connellodonovan.com/abom.html
June 26, 2008 3:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
Note for when this all assumes its dKos diary form ...
It's worth mentioning that BCC deserves some serious credit. The site would seem to provide pretty good evidence that there are faithful Mormons who're unafraid to openly deal with this PR disaster.
June 26, 2008 5:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
Another log for the fire ...
http://watersofmormon.org/archive/2008/06/25/polygamy-and-same-sex-marriage-a-contradiction.aspx
June 26, 2008 6:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
And another (more substantial) log gets tossed into the flames ...
http://messengerandadvocate.wordpress.com/2008/06/25/california-saints-to-get-the-call/
June 26, 2008 6:10 AM | Reply | Permalink
http://mormonmatters.org/2008/06/21/news-flash-lds-church-will-be-actively-opposing-gay-marriage-in-california-this-november/#comment-20559
June 26, 2008 9:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
http://www.feministmormonhousewives.org/?p=1881#comment-435187
Exactly. If I had the choice to spend $5 million on political lobbying efforts against same-sex marriage versus $5 million on food and medical supplies, I’d choose to feed hungry children.
The Church is free to send out press releases and publicize its position against same-sex marriage. But asking members to spend their time and money lobbying against same sex marriage when they could be volunteering at a local school teaching children to read, or working in a homeless shelter is an unfortunate allocation of resources.
Furthermore, I don’t understand why the Church chooses to engage in a high-profile fight in California, while it remained silent and did not join in the coalition of organized efforts to stop gay marriage in Massachusetts. If gay marriage is such a dangerous threat to our social institutions, the Church should be fighting it whereever it rears its ugly head.
Comment by ECS
June 26, 2008 9:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
http://mormonmatters.org/2008/06/21/news-flash-lds-church-will-be-actively-opposing-gay-marriage-in-california-this-november/#comment-19664
June 26, 2008 11:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sen. Smith Learns that Polygamy ≠ Gay Marriage
http://www.asoftanswer.com/2008/06/18/sen-smith-learns-that-polygamy-gay-marriage/
June 27, 2008 12:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
My dKos diary is now live at:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/6/27/11291/1484/408/542680
June 27, 2008 12:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
July 15th update: My wild guess is that Obama's gonna win big in California this November. If I'm right about that, I have to wonder what Jeff Flint, co-campaign manager for the California Protection of Marriage initiative (the Yes on 8 side), thinks he's accomplishing by posting comments like these over at his place at the Red County blog:
As a partner at Schubert Flint Public Affairs, and as "one of the most widely respected public affairs and political professionals in the state of California" (according to the Schubert Flint website), you'd think he'd be savvy enough to avoid
a) pissing off California's Obama supporters, and
b) sounding like a 12-year-old Al Jolson.
If this is the best PR that the ProtectMarriage.com coalition money can buy, well, then it's already time to put a fork in Yes on 8, because it's done.
July 16, 2008 11:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
http://www.redcounty.com/placercountyca/2008/07/brown-press-release-look-at-me/#c68661
JEFF FLINT SAID:
I'm for change....blah blah blah...I's for bringing people together...blah blah blah...let me quote Obama some more....blah blah blah....
JULY 15, 2008 11:10 PM
July 16, 2008 12:17 PM | Reply | Permalink