A few comments, pretty much all over the board:
1. I think Hillary's personality would actually be very well-suited to VP, but only if she and Barack can work well together.
2. I'm glad you addressed the Bill question, but I'm still not convinced.
3. There's a lot more support for putting Hillary on the ticket in the great wide world out there than there is in this self-selected, argumentative community.

Laughing so hard I'm crying.

Which means Obamanauts will hate it.

I think that my concern with Bill and, to a lesser extent, Hillary, is that I'm not confident that they can stay out of the limelight when necessary. Bill in particular seems unable or unwilling to control his mouth, but more importantly, the press loves to write about him. He could inspire hours of news coverage by blowing his nose. Hillary's strengths nothwithstanding, I don't think obsessive press about the Clintons is good for Obama as a candidate or as President.

And for another edition of What Digby Said...

PS: I'd be worried that Bill would be the perpetual mother-in-law, constantly offering unsolicited advice on how to raise the baby. As Hillary once put it, "Bill is a tough dog to keep on the porch." He's said many times that he misses being president and he'd love to do it again. He'd try to keep his place, but I don't think he could resist the temptation to meddle.

This just doesn't seem like a good fit to me, for many reasons.

Although it is not an official campaign slogan, clearly the theme Obama is trying to project is "a new generation of leadership". A second storyline - "Bill and Hillary return to the White House" - conflicts with that message. The Clintons are too big, and cast too large a shadow. Obama needs to be well out from under that shadow, and his administration needs to be the start of a new day. And we simply can't afford all the tabloid speculation about what the Clintons are doing or might be doing.

In the end, I doubt that Hillary Clinton really wants to be a vice president. Obama just has to say that the process of vetting and choosing a vice presidential candidate will be long and thorough, and won't be completed for a couple of months. By that time, the passions of the moment will have dissipated.

Your "walkabout" took about an hour or so. TPM is a hard habit to break I'm guessing.

Were I involved I would advise strongly against. Hard to talk about going forward with the past reverberating constantly, by keeping the Clintons around.

The Wall Street Journal is reporting that it will not be her because Bill refuses to be vetted. He will not release his doner list and other information that Obama would insist on seeing.

I dunno Desidero. I think that the folks who support her and who won't vote for Obama in the end are few and far between. I guess I feel that from a bare-knuckled political perspective, Senator Obama should pick someone who will deliver a state that is a toss-up.

I think you point out the speciousness of certain arguments against her nomination for the number 2 post, such as trying to be the co-president, and the concern about what was said in the midst of a political campaign. But, to the extent that a VP candidate can help someone get elected, I submit then that that should be the focus.

I completely agree with you Des. Except the Saturday part - I don't see that happening.

I actually had this debate with my brother last night, who had the same concerns about Bill. Here's my take on it:

Against McCain, it's a whole different ballgame. They won't have to attack on minute personality differences and little details. They have big huge gaping differences on the issues on which to attack on. And we're right on the issues, I think, in this election. For another thing, Bill is a fucking campaign machine. One thing I've noticed over the course of this primary is that he's had significantly more campaign events in one day than anyone else out there on the campaign trail. 4, 5, sometimes up to 8 events a day. The man is simply tireless. And people really like him. Put him in the right venues and he is an enormous asset. Same goes for Hillary. (One caveat: they both need a quick Youtube briefer - one thing I'm not sure they've fully understood the influence of during this primary - anything and everything they say is under a microscope that can be available to the world in a moment's notice.)

Secondly, Bill put it best earlier when he was touting the opposite line-up: they could be an unstoppable force. The sheer numbers of turnout that ticket could bring out in terms of the young, African-Americans, and women could blow out of the water any "Republican base" turnout (which I tend to think will turn out regardless). The excitement around the ticket would be incredible.

As far as governing, what is Bill going to do? Obama's not exactly a wimp, I really don't see him, even if Bill or Hillary were trying to control things, letting them. Bill will return to his charity work, which he's done great things in. Hillary can run the show on the issues that are her forte. Health care for one. And for those of you who note that it was her confrontational style that did it in in the 90s, I would say that Obama can say, we're going about this my way first, but she has an incredible knowledge of the details and players involved in that area.

And finally, for the concerns that the Clintons would overshadow Obama, well, I'd just say that he casts a pretty big light himself.

Honestly, I've come to a point where I'll be disappointed if she doesn't end up as VP. It could just be so damn exciting.

I prefer her in a cabinet post - secretary of defense - if any department needs someone who pays attention to detail it is that department.

Desidero,

I'm impressed with your conciliatory tone and lucid perspective, yet I disagree completely with the notion of Hillary as Veep.

1) Carter was right: The Clintons are ultra-polarizing and would rally the GOP base against the Democratic ticket
2) The job of Veep is beneath her, leading to restlessness for a more prominent role for that office and needless friction
3) Hillary's presence on the ticket would erase Obama's signature reason for being: Change trumps Experience (including McCain's) and would send independents packing to McCain's camp
4) Her RFK remark would erode her ability to govern effectively in the event of a worst-case scenario, regardless of her innocence in the matter
5) No amount of pre-briefing could prevent roving goodwill ambassador Bill from offering his own, in-depth, policy-wonk insights in the form of a foot in his mouth that would require a 24/7/365 rapid-response administration extraction team

The only reason I'd want her as VP is to teach her how to deal with her political opponents in the service of progressive change. If she could learn either by osmosis or, God forbid, by admitting her egregious failings--her arrogance and reliance on demonization and other dishonest polarizing techniques--and consciously devoting herself to learning Obama's alternative methods for creating change, I'd believe that she could be a great vice president and future president. She has all the other qualities needed.

I believe that she actually could learn and change as she sees Obama succeeding and as she begins reading academic and professional versions of his methods. Like him, she once was a devotee of Sol Alinsky, the famed community organizer; they differed in that she believed in the confrontational emphasis in Reville for Radicals, whereas Obama did not. He believed in empathizing with opponents.

I saw somewhere that Hill and Bill claim that they have been vetted and refuse to submit to Obama's vetting process (in which he checks into financial dealings, etc).

If that is the case, that should tell us all we need to know about playing VEEP to Obama's POTUS. Again, more of the same entitlement; more of the lack of being a team player. No WAY should she get this position.

Hey Des, nice post. You make a very reasoned and often compelling argument. And there's certainly good reason to consider Hillary as VP, though there can also be concerns that you raise, and others, against it. But in the end, Obama will evaluate Hillary and other possible candidates for the position based probably on political strategy, but also, I imagine, on his belief that they will stand with him for the real changes he wants to see. You noticed that the DNC has already announced no lobbyist contributions - and that's Obama's first step in real reform, while McCain talks about it and does the opposite.

So, I believe that Obama is dedicated to the change he advertises, and that his choice of Veep will be someone who he has talked with, discussed the future with, and considered in terms of the electoral map - all of that.

Hillary is one of the candidates. She has to be. But give them time to iron things out. Obama has run a brilliant campaign so far. Yes, he does have some potential weaknesses, but I have faith in his intelligence and political instincts to make the right decision, whatever that is.

Good one, Des.

I'm not so much jubilant as relieved. I think that six months from now we'll look back at this and realize that Hillary was such a tough competitor for Obama that beating McCain was easy by comparison.

I read the speech. He was not bellicose. Obama called for "tough-minded diplomacy" (his words). He spoke of US-led, coordinated diplomatic efforts, and advocated bringing international pressure to bear via sanctions and divestment. Obama explicity made the distinction between Ahamadinejad's administration and the Iranian people. He did not make threats of military action.

And again, he did not vote for a resolution that would help to provide cover for a Bush/Cheney strike on Iran (as HRC did).

Ummm... your categorization of women as list-making organizers is, dare I say, sexist.

Poor, confused green thing.

I see it from a different frame.

First, let me say I find the so-called unity ticket intriguing and exciting and always have. I also think it's real risky, has a high floor and low ceiling.

But she's got the power now of all those wins and delegates, she can be a "lion" of the Senate and a leader and power broker in the party. (Not to mention, you know when you leave a job, the "rolodex" is the most valuable thing, well, she's got an awful big one now.)

The vice-president job would definitely be a step down for her with what she has gained now, she would only be doing it as a duty to the party and if it helps Obama win. It wouldn't help her personal ambition, even for a future run. With this experience of being so close of a runner-up, she's just as good for a future run coming from the Senate, as from V.P. Maybe better, because if he ends up unpopular for some reason, she doesn't get the blame.

I really feel the need to add that she really did improve her standing as a leader a great deal with this run, if you think back to what her reputation was outside of New York before it started. (Despite the loudness of Hillary haters on the net, who I think give net addicts a mistaken impression of reality in the country.)

A cabinet position is more in line with her personal ambition, mho--if I learned anything from having her as my Senator and watching her run, she wants the power to make things happen. That's not in the V.P. job description (even Cheney has to attempt that by very underhanded means, heh.)

Basically what I am trying to say is that those Hillary haters who are thinking she wants the V.P. position because of personal ambition are thinking backwards. If it's all about personal ambition, she would refuse V.P. (She might want the offer, not implying that at all.) If she would accept it, it would be because she thinks it will help make the right things happen for the country, less personal ambition involved, more sacrifice of personal ambition.

There is a problem with vetting and the library donations. But I think the biggest problem is exemplified by Tuesday night. Instead of it being about the most historic nomination it's about her, her non-concession and jockying for VP. Even Ed Rendell said it would be unwise because she would tend to upstage the president. She's too strong a personality and is used to being at the top of the heap. She obviously is very comfortable wrestling for power and control.

Sorry, you'll just have to wait and see. No morning after lovey dovey booby prize for you.

The first polls already show that Hillary would give Obama a huge bump over McCain.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/107716/Gallup-Daily-Obama-Gets-Slight-Bounce-Clinton.aspx

We'll see it that continues. IMO that is what it really comes down to, because what matter is beating the Republicans in November, right?

It will be good working with you going ahead Desidero, I may not always agree with you but your views are well thought out.

First I would like to say that I will admit, I have fallen victim to the sabotage idea from time to time and I am not afraid to admit that I was entirely wrong about her on that.

I agree that she would be a good choice and I wouldn't be disappointed at all. I may have sounded like it from time to time but I have never been a Clinton hater, a Clinton tactic hater, yes. A Clinton hater, no.

I would however like Bill to stop asking for a waiver on the background check for the time between his presidency to now, because we all know if there is anything shady the republicans will relish bringing it out even if he has nothing to do with the race. I just worry about all the scandal, true or not too many people believe this stuff. Too many people are to willing to believe it.

I also think there are a lot of great choices out there that I would like him to have time to really go over the options. I personally like Wexler just because I want to see Bush extradited and charged for war crimes in Iraq. That's just me.

However I agree that it would she would be a great VP.

Hope I never crossed the line with you in the heat of the moment. I took too many of the cult comments and such too personally so I posted a lot with a raw edge. I look forward to taking Mcain on with you.

You know, it's really hard to tell if you are just saying something or trying to insult me.

If the first I agree.

If the second then I would appreciate a little more info so I can respond.