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Debating like Children
Sometimes TPM is a whole lot of fun. Witty, urbane people making comments that I mostly agree with. Sometimes it is like getting smashed in the face with a brick, by someone who looked like a friend. Not as much fun.
I am really curious how some of you can justify your attitudes "debate" being called trolls or insincere or just stupid?
By purposely misunderstanding and pulling quotes out of context or reducing someone's argument to the absurd, you are dumbing down the discourse around here. By not understanding nuance and context or by not even allowing someone to have a distenting opinion without being jumped on by a bunch of potty-mouth kids with uneducated views based on easy lives and an obvious lack of much-needed ass-kickings.
It is the only explanation that makes sense, because many of you certainly don't speak as if you have ever had a hard day in your lvies. You speak as if you have never had to compromise short-term gain for long-term goals. You speak as if your understanding of reality if about a centimeter deep, even if it is miles wide.
So, please let me take this opportunity to get something off my chest. All you trolls, fuck off smartly. (I know that sounds like an oxymoron, but it is Navy speak for "with haste") All the rest of you douchebags (we all know who you are and could make a nice long list of idiots that most would agree on) I am done trying to be polite with people that have no intention of being civil. I am done trying to coddle you or reason with you or explain my point in a new and interesting way in the hopes that you just might get it this time. It is quite obvious you are either unwilling or unable to have civil discourse. So, you can fuck off as well.
Ah, that's better.
Comments (62)
I am really curious how some of you can justify your attitudes "debate" being called trolls or insincere or just stupid? This sentence should have read: I am really curious how some of you can justify your "debate" style without being called trolls or insincere or just stupid?
June 25, 2008 6:28 AM | Reply | Permalink
It takes one to know one?
June 25, 2008 12:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
Dude made a typo. Hardly "stupid".
June 26, 2008 4:12 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm somewhat with you philosphically. It is one thing to disagree with someone. It is another thing to tag that someone as stupid, ignorant, or worse. I think that the name calling and, to paraphrase you, "potty mouthing" discourage discourse.
That being said, don't you think that you are starting to do the things you dislike towards the end of your post?
June 25, 2008 6:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
I know, ironic, huh? I never claimed to be perfect in that regard, but have tried my level best to use specific points vice non-specific insults.
The last paragraph is a measure of my frustration and my determination to fight fire with fire. I have been polite out some misguided attempt to emulate my candidate for president. I am what I am and that's all that I am. (It's OK, I was in the Navy, so Popeye references are fine.)
A leopard can't change its spots, so I am taking off the gloves, to completely mix metaphors. :O)
June 25, 2008 6:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
The only way to fight true trolls is to ignore them. Any response especialy one that lets them know you are offended or angered is just what they are looking for. They have no point of view beyond being irritating. They will have multiple screen names and will argue from what ever side will garner the greatest anger. Their only goal is to 'stir shit with a boat padle'.
June 25, 2008 7:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
I hear you, Larry, but the problem is the trolls I am referring to "stir up shit" it in such a way as to confuse others who may not be up to speed on that particular issue.
They sow discontent and disinformation, which requires and offensive response and not a merely defensive one like silence.
Again, just my take on it and I am not even sure how it will pan out. Just venting more than anything else at this point.
June 25, 2008 7:48 AM | Reply | Permalink
What percentage of posters on this site do you suppose have multiple IDs and spend at least part of their day arguing with themselves in public?
June 25, 2008 10:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
Or, more likely, agreeing with themselves and recommend their own marvelous posts?
June 25, 2008 10:50 AM | Reply | Permalink
We have one who openly admits to doing this, don't we? And then, analyzing the results.
June 25, 2008 12:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Dude, this is the Internet. It's always been like this. I doubt it's ever going to get better.
June 25, 2008 8:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
I never use precedent to justify something that should be changed. That is the whole point of the election this year. America has been fucked up for quite a while but has managed to define needed changes.
Yes, it is the Internet. Yes, it has been this way for a long time. But it is more than that this year. This is a very important election that has some very important people shitting in their britches. If they can send out Agent Provocateurs to stir up shit they will. If we allow our own brand of naive illiterates to stir shit up without response it will have equally damaging effects.
It sucks that we have to defend against this shit from both democrats and neocons, but there you go.
Perhaps things will change if enough of us go on the offense to make it happen? Perhaps it will never change, but by countering these tactics head on we can take the advantage back? Doing nothing leads to nothing. That is clearly not a solution.
I am a staunch advocate of the best defense being a great offense.
June 25, 2008 8:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
"I never use precedent to justify something that should be changed. That is the whole point of the election this year. America has been fucked up for quite a while but has managed to define needed changes."
Couldn't agree more. We can still grow. The Internet culture is extremely young - in many ways - and we're all learning how to behave in an essentially anonymous venue. It's especially poignant when you're a moderator of an online site and actually know the people personally, then watch them in their (otherwise) anonymous identities. The biggest wienies in real life can be outright bullies online. So it goes.
But in the end, Jason, I agree that we don't have to assume forever that "that's the Internet." This is a fabulous opportunity for us to learn and grow as a culture. It will take time, and it won't always be pretty, but I sincerely hope it proves to be an avenue for some evolution in human communications.
Of course, I haven't taken any gloves off or decided to change my spots - or whatever metaphor works best. I'm still hoping that we can listen to each other and gain from it. I know you support opposing views when they are thoughtful, but perhaps we can read between the lines of the more hateful posts and recognize that some people just don't have the ammunition to use the truth or reason. I mostly ignore them or just point out that they haven't offered anything of substance to the debate. They don't answer back, because they have no substance to offer. Others will twist ideas to their will, which is common in debates - and politics - and it's up to us to keep them honest.
Anyway, that's what comes up for me. Still hopeful after all these years.
June 26, 2008 1:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
As always, a very thoughtful reply, Raider. I agree completely about the Internet already allowing a significant majority to evolve along humanistic paths in ways that haven't happened since the 60s. In fact, I think at the end of the day, the Internet will become the Evolution of the Revolution that started with my parents and grandparents.
This blog is more venting than anything else. Funny, I am way more patient with moderate republicans than with fellow liberals these days. Since the GOP turned everything they touched to shit in Washington, many are willing to discuss alternative ways of doing things as long as it doesn't involve putting them on a spit and roasting them over the coals of progressive vengeance. Some progressives truly seem to be out for blood this year.
It makes me wonder if they really aren't neocons (someone suggested College Republicans) stirring shit up in disguise.
I am still going to do my best to respond with reason rather than both barrels, though will open up if needed. This is too important to my unborn kids. I will continue to do my best to back down if someone else responds in kind, but I done trying not to offend idiots.
If I am lucky, I will get my Internet radio show going soon. Then I can really let loose! :O)
June 26, 2008 8:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
This so reminds me of this:
http://xkcd.com/386/
June 25, 2008 12:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh, that's just mean. Now I feel guilty.
June 25, 2008 12:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
What a great site. Thanks for the link. My current fave:
http://xkcd.com/242/
June 25, 2008 12:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
With both you and Jason, I just assume you'll take it all in the intended spirit - i.e., nothin' mean about it.
In that same spirit, pls don't kick my ass if I ask if you've bothered to rec this spectacular post:
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/06/mormons-enter-calif-marriage-f.php
And, yeah, that http://xkcd.com/242/ link got a chuckle. Cheers.
June 25, 2008 1:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
I recommended it. And I'll assume you've recommended this'n.
June 25, 2008 3:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
And who would want it to get better? Not I. Then it would be like going to school.
June 26, 2008 1:28 AM | Reply | Permalink
The Ad Hominem attack is part and parcel of the internet discussion group and has been since Al Gore invented it. One loses one's inhibitions when one doesn't have to look his/her adversary in the eye. The same principal makes war easier today. Aerial bombardment, smart bombs and guided drones all make things neatly impersonal. There is no blood on the attackers hands. No post-trauma.
You'll not change this with an open letter, and the therapeutic value will be short lived. Do what you can to keep the discussion on track, hold on to your own humanity and file away the recipes and bits of arcanery from the block posts. The egg salad recipe posted the other day was actually quite good...
June 25, 2008 8:54 AM | Reply | Permalink
I missed the egg salad recipe. Spot on with the other comments. Being a stubborn cuss, though, almost requires me to tilt at windmills.
June 25, 2008 9:11 AM | Reply | Permalink
TIlt. Hmmm..So that's why you couldn't get your face squared in the camera, yes?
June 26, 2008 1:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
Jason, you're right on the money (as usual). Personally, I've come to the conclusion that both my patience and my tolerance are completely used up. As far as I'm concerned, this nominating battle is over. Barack Obama is the nominee. For a few sore losers it will never be over.
I'll be voting in November. Until then, I'm pretty uninterested in either ignoring or fighting. If I catch a troll in my yard, I'll grab a stick and run them off the property. If I see one on the sidewalk, I'll probably just cross over to the other side of the street.
Sometimes it seems like the choice is between ignoring (endlessly) or grabbing a brick and getting in the fight. Both choices totally suck, of course. The magic thing about the Internet is that there are always other, better, more productive things to do with your time than ignoring or fighting.
Fight the good fight, brother. See ya on the other side.
June 25, 2008 9:03 AM | Reply | Permalink
Like everyone else in this unprecedented election season, I am making it up as I go along. I just noticed recently that being nice hasn't worked, so why fight against my natural aggressiveness? :O)
June 25, 2008 9:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
I don't know. I've tried it both ways. An interesting science experiment, perhaps, but some people truly have turned their heads into blocks of wood. On purpose. Can you fuckin' believe that? :)
What really torques my ass is the dead-enders who insist upon seeking out evidence against our nominee and bringing here to... I'm not even sure what their point is, to tell you the truth. To convince people that they've made a bad decision or something? It's completely asinine, but they're so earnest about it that you can't decide whether to slap them real hard or make them a bag lunch and watch in bewilderment as they hop on the short bus headed for wherever it is they go every day. You can scream at them, kick them, taunt them, be nice to them--whatever. It doesn't matter. They actually seem to thrive best on abuse. I'm not going to name names, but there's a certain bearded fellow who showed up here recently, and he seems determined to get his ass kicked on a near daily basis. To what end, I'm not sure. But it depresses me a bit to know that we're sharing a planet and a gene sequence. (Was it mean to say that?)
I like to remain active, but do these people have as their goal simply seeing how much of your time they can waste? Are the fuckers on to something truly destructive? And while it's some fun to see how far you can kick them, are they really worth a minute of your time? I don't know. I had so many knock-down, drag-out battles with staunch Hillary supporters during the nominating process. And I have nothing but respect for those who fought tooth and nail to the bitter end, and now they're fighting tooth and nail for our candidate. I'm proud as hell to know people like that. But these others--I just don't know...
June 25, 2008 9:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
Exactly right. Which makes it seems like all we can assume is that it is a Rovian trick to divide us (their perennial favorite) and unleash both barrels on each and every one.
Given that I have the flexibility this year to devote time to crushing any obstacle in our way, I almost consider it my duty to be on call. We have been getting our asses kicked by the neocons for 40 years. Anyone who can spend time correcting idiots or combating trolls will help win this thing. We all know that on-line narratives make it into the corporate media all the time. We have to fight back against lies and no-context diatribes at all costs.
I can't say it enough - This is how they have won in the past.
If this is a trick, the trolls deserve the abuse and we need to call them out every time. Like weeds, their polluted ideas will multiply unless torn out by the roots at every turn. If they are simply naive waifs who can't pull their heads out of their bums long enough to smell the reality of our situation, then I will consider it an object lesson for them to take away this year beyond the power of grassroots activism and generational change.
Either they will learn their lessons or continue making the same logical mistakes and getting the same black eyes.
June 25, 2008 9:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
I can't give them the benefit of having that much intelligence. I think they're just whores for attention, and not at all particular about how they get it. They've learned that being annoying pays big dividends in the attention-getting department. And when you read what they have to say, you quickly realize that being annoying is truly the best they've got.
I have a friend who used to call me on the phone whenever he did something mind-bogglingly stupid. Like running up thousands of dollars on his phone bill calling porn chat lines, or charging two dozen CDs at Target and then immediately selling them to a used CD place because (he claimed) that was the best way he could think of to raise some cash. For a year or two, I actually indulged him by feigning interest and concern. Then, one day, he was telling me about his latest misadventure and I just hung up on him. Didn't say anything--just hung up the phone. I didn't hear from him for a few days, then one day he called me and acted as if nothing had happened. We're still friends, but he's found someone else to annoy with his tales of stupidity.
I would love it if this site had an Ignore button under every comment. There are two or three on this site that I would definitely hang up on (and many more, I'm sure, who would be happy to hang up on me).
The problem with trying to correct trolls is that many of them are already aware that they're completely full of shit. That's the point. They play with whatever they find in their own diapers and expect us to say, "What a good baby!" every time they proudly present us with another of their brilliant turds.
June 25, 2008 10:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
I totally agree with this. I have been asking about an ignore button since one of my first blogs here.
June 25, 2008 10:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
So does that suggest that like me you'd be just as happy to send them to cornfield as argue with them?
June 25, 2008 10:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yep. We can lock them away in a little room preaching to each other and patting each other on the back or cutting each other off at the knees as they choose.
I would think that eventually, the only people getting ignored would be the ones who cause most of the shit, regardless of their motives. This was my proposed solution. Very easy from a technology standpoint.
I guess that the reason they don't give us that feature is that the controversy is good for ad sales. The more chum in the water the better.
June 25, 2008 11:10 AM | Reply | Permalink
You don't really need an Ignore button. There are a handful who just consistently post garbage. I sail right past their avatars. It can be annoying, because they also tend to take up lots of space in a thread, but...I'll accept a little annoyance.
June 25, 2008 12:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, guys, I know I don't really have to point this out, but the internet is a gathering place for the smart, the interesting, those who have a lot that's worthwhile to share - as well as the unbalanced, the losers, those with big f'ing chips on their shoulders, etc. etc. etc. And there's no screening. The doors wide open. I try not to interact with those who appear to be truly unbalanced, because I just need that kind of toxicity in my life. The ones that seem harmless, but are just off - I like to tease, just 'cuz it's fun. And those who are jumping on here to aggressively and intentionally misinform? I say take those f'ers on with a vengeance. I love it when BunnyKat really goes for it. Makes my day and I follow the thread with great intent and rec with wild abandon.
Hey, I don't regret that we have trolls here. They keep the place interesting. Give it a little color. And keep the rest of us on our toes.
June 25, 2008 9:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
Oopsie - meant to say above that I don't interact with the truly toxic, because I DON'T need the toxicity. You get what I was saying, I think...
June 25, 2008 9:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for getting the point of this blog! I am doing my best to order my responses based on your outline.
June 25, 2008 10:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
The only ones that truly bug me are the cowards who have the language skills to do better, but prefer instead to present their tripe as grande cuisine. You know who I'm talking about. They're good at what they do, and their reasonable sounding prose belies their venomous intentions. They're snakes, and they deserve to have their heads separated from their tales with a shovel. Unfortunately, even when you do, the head continues to bite and the tail rattles on and on and on...
June 25, 2008 10:33 AM | Reply | Permalink
Nice pun within a metaphor within an analogy. :O)
June 25, 2008 10:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks. I just wish I'd had the patience to spell it the same both times. :)
June 25, 2008 10:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
Well, yes, and that behavior is typical of a Narcissist. I think of it like public masturbation. They could take part in the forum here for the purpose of actually contributing something useful to the discussion. But, they choose not to do that. They use it instead as a means to stroke their own, weirdly disturbed psyches. I try not to get into a lot of interaction with those folks, because their purpose here is not good. And I don't want to get pulled into the shit that's going on in their heads. But, when they venture over into deliberately spreading misnformation, yeah, they need to be checked. But, I say, do it and move on, and don't let them pull you into the sparring, because the satisfaction of the sparring is what they're really seeking. Deal the blow, call them on their shit, and move on to something more productive.
June 25, 2008 12:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Jason, here's a perfect example of the problem: Right now, there is a completely inane and intentionally destructive/disruptive post riding high on the recommended list. Posted by a guy who has been riding the fence and playing the devil's advocate for as long as I can remember. He's simultaneously both for and against everything and everyone, and his main goal in life seems to be finding the most annoying position he can take on any particular issue. But he dips his line into the water, and the little fishies go for it every time. He's not even using real bait. He has nothing but contempt for his fellow man, and yet he's treated as someone benign and even friendly. A harmless amusement. And for the life of me, I can't figure how stupidity like his gets on the list. Who recommends these things and why? Do they get recs because the people involved in the discussion appreciate the original post, or is it the discussion they're recommending?
Or are they just too polite to hang up on the motherfucker?
June 25, 2008 11:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
All good questions. There doesn't seem to be much rhyme or reason as to why certain things end up on the recommended list. Click on each one on the list and the number of comments or recommendations varies widely. Very strange.
They need a web manager who can drive the 2.0 development cycle for them from a strategy perspective and usability perspective. TPM has done a great job crafting a political site, but they have totally dropped the ball on the technical innovation. I think the latter will be the determining factor.
That's the problem with early success. It hides bad habits that could have damaging results in the long run.
All it takes is a new competing site with better tools and a slicker strategy. I came here from Huffington Post because their blogging tools sucked. If someone comes up with something new that is better than TPM, I'll go there next.
June 25, 2008 11:22 AM | Reply | Permalink
The really stupid part is that WordPress is a free download, and it's infinitely better than what they're using.
I came to TPM when it was Josh's blog and he did most of the writing. I found him through an absolutely brilliant piece he wrote for the Washington Monthly called "Practice To Deceive". I read it, and I said, "Who the hell is this guy?"
I liked this site a lot better when it was Josh's blog. I realize it's grown beyond that, but the beginning of the end for me was when they did the redesign. And hired certain editors. Who shall go unnamed because everyone already knows who they are.
The thing is, there really aren't many alternatives. DailyKos and DU are loony bins much of the time. Huffington Post is fine, I guess, but too much about pop culture and entertainment news. I check in daily with Real Clear Politics. But for all its faults, TPM is still the best I've found. I just wish it was as good as it could be.
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2003/0304.marshall.html
June 25, 2008 11:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
You're right. You can't be nice around here. Many Dems have been wringing their hands so long they've forgotten how to make them into fists. The best way to remind them is to plant one right on their shnozzes. Anyone who grew up under the reign of a tyrannical older sibling (Lamont raises hand) knows how this works.
You're my new favorite poster. And by the looks of your avatar, you might almost be as unstable as I am.
June 25, 2008 11:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks, Lamont. I have found your comments to be both pointed and profound while remaining fair. Probably in the same percentage as my own. I am just offering a warning that the gloves are off for certain types of behavior. It's the least a pragmatic progressive can do.
June 25, 2008 12:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
PS: I change my avatar based on my mood. Time for a little stink eye around here. :O)
June 25, 2008 12:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Posts (and comments) like these remind me why I really, really like it here.
June 25, 2008 12:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Lis it is former republicans like you (I hope I am remembering that correctly) that give me hope that Jefferson and Lincoln and Roosevelt's party isn't truly dead.
Maybe we can go take it back together? Extreme Makeover: Republican Edition? I feel another blog coming on. :O)
Thanks for the kind words here and elsewhere!
June 25, 2008 1:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
I hope that felt good. Like the new avatar. ;-)
Jason, I've always liked your comments and your blog posts. I thought the one you did on the prison economy was one of your better posts. I wish more people had read it. You don't just post a link and then set to arguing, you make an argument and then set to arguing with commentaries. That's the best in possible blog posters.
I like reading your comments as well. You obviously have passion and are very well informed. I learn from you and it's always a pleasure to find you on a thread carrying on in your own inimitable way. I like arguments with hot chipotle salsa. ;-)
I'm so there with you on that one. Not fun. Painful, even. It's hard to determine when a flaming is going on though, at least for me. I'm snarky oriented more than serious and so for me I have to take a lot with large dollops of salt because of the limitations of the writing-reading interface on the net which excludes facial tics, hand gestures and pheromones. However, if in retrospect something clearly felt like a flameup, I try to remain civil. I have gone to the killing zone on other blogs and been grateful that I was not banned. I don't like doing it. I don't like that side of me when it surfaces, on the cyberspace or in meatspace. I don't like feeling so freaking implacable. I've learned that very few people are worth going there for, but that there are some causes that are worth it. But I get to choose them.
I do understand your concern with the Misinformers, I see nothing wrong with fighting back. They worry me too.
June 25, 2008 1:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for the kind words, Cricket. Our injustice system is perhaps one of my biggest pet peeves because it would be so easy for a society of people with good will to fix it. When did we become such blood thirsty automatons?
I enjoy policy debates over political ones any day of the week. We are in the middle of a campaign, though, so that is why such posts don't gain traction.
I do enjoy reading your comments as well. I learned recently from my little brother (Gen Y) that snark and sincerity can exist in the same sentence for his generation. Further, they can argue passionately for and against the same position just to get the conversations started. That sort of mindset and style of debate (less prevalent I think in the older crowd) can really explain some of the more intractable posters.
I don't think they are subversives as much as devil's advocates. A dangerous game to blame when the country is in such a fragile place, but they don't have the experiences yet to see that.
June 25, 2008 1:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Jason: I have abandoned TPM of late because the posts seemed to have devolved so much and there are a few vultures who just scan for what they see as roadkill or an easy target--a really negative climate for intelligent thought. I'm just as guilty because I just can't deal with it when one of the "regulars" zooms in and sprays shit all over you. I feel like I have to fight back and I get pissed. But, I'm tired of the overall climate here, and the personalities have become too much--it's like trying to have a conversation with cartoon characters. I've had some interesting discussions of substance with some TPM folks on interesting issues, and have learned a good bit, but I can't discern the trolls anymore. And there are so many people trying on different personas and avatars that it's just too hard to play the game, especially if you have a life and a full-time job.
June 25, 2008 7:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
I hear you, Kate. That's why I am simply assuming that it's going to be a fight and act accordingly. It is disheartening, but necessary if we are going to prevail.
I have learned that some trolls are more recognizable by their rhetoric than their avatars. I have also found a fairly consistent majority on this site who want to have debate untainted by emotional extremes. I have disagreed on some the most contentious issues with people on this site and came away with a more nuanced opinion as a result.
This post, like my other post currently making the rounds, is a call to arms and a battle cry. This election is too important to let the faint of heart distract us or the bad intentioned dissuade us. We sort out the hurt feelings after we win the election.
June 25, 2008 8:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, I guess we are all weary from the battle, but we need to win the war. My problem is figuring out who is on what side, which makes discourse difficult. I appreciate your insights, which are always thoughtful and provocative, even though your avatar makes me feel like it's 3:00 a.m. and I've had too much to drink and you're the guy sitting next to me who always makes so much sense but looks a little wasted. I appreciate your thoughts that we can't let the faint of heart distract us. I am feeling more emboldened now.
June 25, 2008 9:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Stick around, KateO. There are good souls here and much to learn.
June 25, 2008 9:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
This avatar is my stink eye look. Stick around, it will change. :O) Thanks for the kind words.
June 25, 2008 9:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
This is a reply to CarolBG and Jason "stink eye." I will stick around because, I agree, there is more good than bad here, and I do learn something every time I visit. I am going to try to be more circumspect, however. Thanks to both of you for your always reasoned and often humorous comments.
June 25, 2008 10:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Jason,
Maybe it's not as bad as you think? Or never was as witty and urbane as you think?
I mean that there was, is and always will be childish behavior around here.
Assface.
But if you filter it out, choose what to reply to and try to keep your cool (and I'm not always good at that) then it doesn't seem like a big kindergarten screamfest.
Morontroll.
I mean, it's all in how you look at things.
Turdwad.
If you don't see some things and do see the truth, which is that most of us, including you and me, find it fun to disagree with each other but also still win one another's respect, then you won't need to engage in so many angry, republican neocon troll rants.
:)
June 25, 2008 11:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, I disagree with your characterization of my blog as an angry, neocon troll rant. While I do believe a certain percentage of the idiots around here fit that description, many of childish progressives who like to play devil's advocate to "spice up" the conversation around here.
"So, we get what we had here last week. Which is the way he wants. Well? He gets it."
For anyone who knows the source of that quote, devil's advocacy is simply a way to spark an angry and immediate response. We Gen Xers are pissed. I suspect the Boomers (older?) who are here are pissed as well. Most people over the age of 30 or so won't respond well to that kind of tactic.
My little brother and I get into fights all the time over it.
As naive as it may sound, the older you get the more you take people at their word and don't automatically assume that it is a rhetorical device designed to stimulate the conversation and dissect talking points. The most common sense and obvious response is that this is yet one more attack we need to respond to with both barrels in order to get this presidential election won this year.
The types of disagreements I like to have are the one's had with you. We both enter it passionately and from totally different perspectives yet despite that disagreement can come to see the other side's point of view. That is debate that is necessary and productive and honest. If someone wants to rant and vent and carry-on about something in a blog. That is very cool as well, just be prepared (as I am) to come in here and defend yourself with a modicum of manners and intellect. I don't think that is so much to ask.
Besides, devil's advocacy is deceitful and only the devil wins.
June 26, 2008 8:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm in the middle of reading Obama's Audacity of Hope and it's inspiring me on to a mission of getting others to read it. It very much speaks to the subject of this post which is actually a symptom of a greater problem than just belligerence on a blog thread. There's a self-centeredness infecting all of us that keeps us from seeing another point of view. Obama dissects the entire political landscape and precisely identifies how a "deficit of empathy" is affecting our ability to have a successful deliberative democracy. It's a brilliant discourse that would make a great manual for a way to civil debate for a productive society.
The only thing, everyone needs to read it.
June 26, 2008 12:51 AM | Reply | Permalink
Right on, Craig. The Empathy Deficit is way worse than our monetary one and will keep us from achieving anything resembling significant change.
I wish I could be more like Obama - the dude is the most unflappable cat that I have seen in the public eye - but I am clearly less electable than he is.
June 26, 2008 8:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
Jason, I completely agree with you. I probably wouldn't have a week ago, but after suffering myself at the hands of the tactics and methods you mention, I can't help but agree.
One excuse I saw someone post was "it's the Internet." I don't find that to be an excuse at all for the shit-slinging Jason is talking about. Honestly, there is absolutely no reason that those here who consider themselves to be rational debaters needs to disgrace and degrade themselves "by purposely misunderstanding and pulling quotes out of context or reducing someone's argument to the absurd... By not understanding nuance and context or by not even allowing someone to have a dissenting opinion without being jumped on by a bunch of potty-mouth kids with uneducated views based on easy lives and an obvious lack of much-needed ass-kickings."
It happens way too fucking often, and I noticed it's happened more and more with this FISA stuff coming up.
All of a sudden it's an egregious offense to life as we know it to still hold any kind of positive opinion of Barack Obama. Seriously people (and here's where I'll get flamed right and left), grow the fuck up.
(Anticipated response: no, Chrono, you grow the fuck up.)
June 26, 2008 2:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
Seconded. People need to get a grip, and the trolls? They need to be ignored. It's tough, and I'm not perfect in that regard. But all they want is attention. Don't feed the animals.
June 26, 2008 4:25 AM | Reply | Permalink
I hear you, Sci, but I think it is more devious than that.
I think the neocon trolls understand (perhaps better than some of the true progressives around here do) that for every one of us who comments and blogs, there are perhaps dozens or hundreds who are there and never say a word. If we ignore disinformation and slander, we risk the chance that it becomes "fact" to that unseen and unheard audience. They must be convinced not only by our narrative, but also by our ability to be reasonable and think of the bigger picture. If there wasn't a vast audience watching us hash shit out on these threads then TPM wouldn't make a dime, because as far as I can tell, there are perhaps a couple dozen of us regulars. Maybe hundred? That's not nearly enough to drive ad sales.
With that as my guiding context this year, I choose to go on the offensive and address any hurt feelings later.
June 26, 2008 8:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
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