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A Better Class of Troll
Is David Seaton the best troll McCain can send to TPM? Come on! Dude is a weak troll at best and kind of insulting to boot. At least give us someone who is on par with the best of the Hillary trolls, who are now part of the progressive majority that will kick McCain's ass in the general.
I had my issues with "Louisville1976" but he was entertaining and well informed about many things outside of our respective candidates. Above all, he could turn a phrase and elicit a laugh every now and then. Seaton is simply pedantic and not the least bit entertaining. Not to mention cynical and pessimistic and detached from reality in any meaningful way for many of his posts.
I would suggest McCain actually invest some money in hiring better trolls. Otherwise, the thumping he'll get in November will be both historic and embarrassing.
Comments (63)
Rec'd.
You know, we don't really have open threads around here, do we?
One thought I've had is that it might be fun, anytime a Seaton or LaRouche post pops up, to just automatically treat such posts as open threads. Anything goes. Talk about the weather. Meet new friends. Share the day's events. Whatever. Anything besides actually discussing the subject of the post.
Anyway, just a thought.
June 13, 2008 7:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
Great idea! Kind of the opposite of the "not feeding the troll" tactic. Feed the thread until it bursts with random non sequiturs.
June 13, 2008 7:50 AM | Reply | Permalink
Much like the poetry rave of a couple days ago, all it should take is the first person to bravely declare: OPEN THREAD!
Or, maybe: THIS IS EXCELLENT NEWS!! FOR AN OPEN THREAD!!!
June 13, 2008 8:29 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yes! Let's put a twist on the Idiotic byline. The poetic allusion is delicious.
June 13, 2008 10:23 AM | Reply | Permalink
Open thread!
June 13, 2008 7:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm really digging this idea. I've already posted a mini review of Charlie Wilson's war, a complaint about the difficult homophonics of the anti-reflux drug Aciphex, and a little blurb about the flooding in Iowa--all courtesy of our newest blogger dominickdesid.
June 14, 2008 8:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
You guys rock. I was hesitant to just throw out an OPEN THREAD comment below bad posts, but no longer. Cheers.
June 13, 2008 8:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
And since this is an open thread, I suppose it's as good a place as any to post an apology to clearthinker for a rude reply of mine on another thread. It was meant to be snarky, but I failed to adequately signal as much in the comment, and so it just came off as mean. Sorry.
June 13, 2008 11:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
OMG. You're advocating Blanarchy.
No.
We must adhere to stick rules of conduct: be polite, be entertaining / non-pedantic, and never, NEVER, EVER feed the trolls.
Anyway, I had better go study my constitution. Andy gave me such a grilling the other day.
Do ya think Dumbya could do any better?
June 13, 2008 10:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
Some trolls are hard to spot.. and they feed each other until someone blows a gasket and responds as if they are legit.
Notice how Billy Glad is always the first comment on anything related to McCain? I mean, he must be sitting and waiting the way he alwasy gets the first word on a McCain related post... just go back and look, I am hardly exaggerating...
So, is Billy a bona McCain fide troll? And if so, doesn't that make his previous pro-Hillary concern-trollish defenses really subterfuge to divide Democrats into sparring corners?
I leave it up to others to consider, my mind is made up...
June 13, 2008 11:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
Well, I think he has said that he didn't have a dog in this hunt (referring to the Democratic primary), so…
In all seriousness, I think he has also stated that he is open to voting for Barack, although he has been strangely noncommittal. (I say strangely, because he seems to have very strong opinions, and I find it challenging to believe that he hasn't made up his mind on this already.)
June 13, 2008 12:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
At least you guys are finally admitting it. This is the second comment today that suggests not supporting Obama = troll. The other one was even more blunt. But maybe that's because not supporting Obama is supporting McCain? Yeah, tht would explain why these TPMers were just as adamant that not supporting Hillary = troll, too, right? I don't think who one votes for has anything to do with "trolling." But then maybe that makes me a troll under the new Rulz.
Now, I really think, in the interest of fairness to first time visitors, there should be some rules and SOPs posted to alert potential trolls(and the site should be renamed to TPMama or something as a heads up). Just the usual TOA- criticism of Obama is only allowed if it is excused as his "first" mistake that he will (as always) quickly learn from; worship of Obama is required but should always be moderated by some "of course, he's just a politician..."; he's not running on race despite all of the racist attacks his campaign must address everyday; his campaign mistakes and gaffes are absolutely genius; etc.
Anyway, you get the point. Something should be written under authority of management so all trolls,even the self-loathing little ogres, can no where they stand beforehand. You may think trolls would know who they are but when looking in the mirror, see only regular people. Maybe it's the mirrors.
June 14, 2008 1:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
Read what I wrote again. I'm not calling Billy a troll. I'm merely pointing out that he doesn't claim to be a Hillary nor an Obama supporter, and making light of that.
Billy's an agitator, but he's no troll.
June 14, 2008 10:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
Fair enough, Ben. I read it as 'he's not a troll because he's indicated he may be open to voting Obama.' That says to me that without a pledge to vote Obama you can be considered a troll. Hell, there used to be some hardcore conservatives coming to argue here, and it was fun and even enlightening at times. Now, good people are ridiculed simply because they criticize the One (er, I mean the nominee).It's becoming a monastery with everyone chanting the same chants over and over.
June 14, 2008 4:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
Why so cynical, Don?
How come we aren't allowed to aggressively counter obvious lies and innuendo? Isn't that what sank both Kerry and Gore?
Do you hate winning, Don?
Perhaps you could consider the idea that we support Obama for many reasons beyond your dismissive and unsupported one-dimensional view.
June 14, 2008 6:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
I guess I just hate Amerika, Jason...
No, I was really just being polite to Ben because he’s a civil kind of guy. Am I cynical about politicians? Yes. I prefer, skeptical, and I won’t believe Obama is anything other than an old-politics corporate centrist unless and until I see otherwise in his actions. Do I disparage others’ devotion to their candidates? Of course not, unless they are true-believers who cannot abide non-believers. And for months the Obama gang here has tried to run people off because they don’t genuflect to Obama.
You guys have been vile to Clinton supporters and continue to do so even in their loss. You dismiss half of the Dem voters because they supported the other guy and dismissed entire states of Dem voters (FLA and MI) that will be crucial in the general because it benefited your candidate at the time. Then you ask if I want to win. Of course I want to defeat McCain, and I think if some of the skeptics about Kerry had been listened to, we might have won then.
This is a site for discussion and debate. The only trolls are those whose only purpose is to thwart that debate not take part in it. I have yet to see a real troll here, other than a couple who were kicked out some time ago and the occasional spammer who gets deleted pretty quickly. A troll is not someone who doesn’t agree with you. A troll is not someone who doesn’t support Obama enough.
June 14, 2008 11:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Here's a buck for your thoughts, old timer. Go get yourself another drink.
June 13, 2008 4:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't think Billy really rises to the level of troll most of the time. He seems generally content to hang around and drop a few snarky non sequiturs into the mix, but usually nothing that would qualify as an opinion. What he lacks in spine, he more than makes up for in nonsense.
McCain troll? I doubt it. I suppose he'll probably vote for staying home and watching it on television.
June 13, 2008 6:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Take the kitty litter with you, Old Timer. Buy him a drink. Get him laid. Listen, kitty litter, I got the band. Which one were you? Shithead or Wimpy?
June 13, 2008 9:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
I sense a little testiness here, Pinocchio. Perhaps there's a real boy in there after all. Keep working on it. Growing a spine is the first step. Next come the cojones.
June 14, 2008 8:01 AM | Reply | Permalink
Really? Did we get the band wrong? DOA out of Vancouver is the buzz I hear. If that's not right, let me know so I can put the word out we have to keep looking. Frankly, I thought DOA was too generous a guess. Maybe they're the ones who supposedly ripped you off? Fill us in Kitty Litter. If you're really shithead, I'm impressed.
June 14, 2008 12:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
My dog has something called "walrus puppy syndrome". It's really weird. His back paws are all bloated up. So we call him Phinneus the Phat Phoot puppy.
Hey, I like this open thread....
June 13, 2008 12:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
There's not a mccain troll alive who can keep up with you all. They won't stay long before they go home to lick their wounds.
June 13, 2008 3:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
A lefty expat living in Spain, writing a weekly column for a Spanish daily, who thinks the current U.S. Democratic party isn't socialist enough and who has had a blog stating such views since Oct. 2006/a>
is a McCain troll?
That's a pretty damn sophisticated troll operation.
June 13, 2008 4:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
We are sophisticated, artappraiser. We burrow into important, thought leading blogs like TPM, pretending at first to be for Clinton or Obama, and sowing the seeds of dissent in an otherwise harmonious and unified community. Then, on Halloween, or on the first bad moon, we spring from the closet, wielding our McCain hatchets and we hack up every Progressive in sight. That's how McCain is going to win the election.
June 13, 2008 4:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
OIC. So did the McCain campaign get the sleeper cell idea from Al Qaeda, or was it vice versa?
June 13, 2008 5:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
I hardly think that Seaton's recent "if we can't prove it doesn't exist then we should assume it does exist until it's actually proven to exist and then we can stop assuming anything" logic rises to the level that it can be called "sophisticated", but maybe that's just me.
You're interesting, if puzzling.
artappraiser is insightful and interesting.
I'm not sure why you want to cast your lot in with Seaton.
June 13, 2008 6:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Who said I was? His view of the U.S. is not mine, no way.
I just really don't see the benefit to anyone of mislabeling him so ignorantly. Doing that, it's sort of the Bush way: are ye with us or agin us? McCain or Obama team? Force em into one of two camps.
Ever think it might be helpful to understand that there are other P.O.V.'s than Clinton v. Obama, Obama v. McCain? A whole nother world out there? This site grows ever more amazingly Amero-centric by the day.
I am amazed that so many commenters here can't even recognize classic Euro lefty thought with it blaring them in the face Seaton obviously is disgusted by what his home country has become and he's nearly a classic stereotype lefty . And so many commenters here are so ignorant of this classic view that they have to label it a "McCain troll" or a "Nazi". So clueless and Amero-centric as to reinforce the stereotype of "ugly dumb American" in Europe.
It's just absurd, back in 2003 the political blogs were full of more extreme Seaton types spewing "Amerika hate" and the blogosphere got labeled "America hating." Now that centrism is cool, his type is a McCain troll! Hilarious ignorance, Bush-style ignorance of the p.o.v. of other societies recreated in defense of Obama!
June 13, 2008 8:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
artappraiser - I know you're in the middle of a heated discussion, but how about putting up an avatar? Would like to see what art you like since you're an appraiser...
PS - I agree, there is a "whole nother world out there", and they all seem to be buying our ports, buildings, and beer companies. America is in fire-sale mode.
June 14, 2008 1:10 AM | Reply | Permalink
You seem to miss the point a lot, Ben. Maybe you're distracted. Big project or thesis or something. Facts. Accuracy. Knowing what's going on. Things that have some value in themselves. No? You don't have to side with Seaton to know he's no troll. You actually argue more than Seaton does, but no one thinks you're a troll.
June 13, 2008 9:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
No, you are correct, he's not a troll, but his most recent two posts are very trollish. Presumably you'd agree with that?
June 13, 2008 10:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
true. and i shouldn't have been so flippant. he's not a troll.
but anyone (seaton) who says america deserves 8 more years off bush, so they can get as disgusted as spaniards were after 40 years of franco, and thus will be more open to "real" change..... well, that sort of thing just strikes me as brutal. as in a man become a brute. maybe from a heart that's been brutalized, i donno. but yup, he gets his views and full and free airtime. he's just not voicing something i care to debate too much.
and so, i shall skip to the loo.
June 14, 2008 12:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
Hard for me to say. I don't read him much anymore. What I'm finding is any analysis of the relative strengths of McCain v. Obama bring the mob out screaming troll. I'm more interested in the culture of the campaigns now, and watching Obama pivot to the center now that he has the nomination.
June 14, 2008 12:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
What artappraiser said about mislabeling, I agree. I see mislabeling as a regular happening here at TPM, and I read almost everyday.
You may disagree with someone's style and suddenly they get labeled a "troll" or you may disagree with their presentation and they are labeled a "troll." Even content, I think needs to be seen with a pinch of distance.
Language use, personal idioms and tone need to be factors in determining whether a troll is indeed a troll. I say this as someone who gets perceived as a troll, I suspect, quite regularly.
Sometimes I even get flamed, denigrated and ridiculed. And sometimes I'm accepted right off as not a troll. It's always an interesting experience to see who does the labeling and who does not. Tells me a lot about who people are in their insides.
I've found that even in blogs, people have strict moral expectations of how people should behave, operating as an individual internal meter of custom, tradition and definitions of loyalty and also some view towards group think. As if there is some code common to all of us and we are all hooked into the same code-pipeline of a common sense. But sense common to whom?
The problem is that we don't know each other as people in real time. So when we write, all we proffer is our words. There are no hand gestures, no facial tics, no pheromones to indicate how we should be read. Only an archive.
Therefore, the way we get read has everything to do with where a reader is, emotionally, at the time they read that comment we posted. That's not to say that there aren't obvious and egregious breaches of collective custom and traditions. But those, IMHO, are rare, but yes, they do happen.
I feel a very clear imperative to not mob someone, unless they have shown some clear and visceral evidence towards real ugliness.
Just my two cents.
June 14, 2008 1:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
Jason:
It's Louisville1975, not Louisville1976.
You can't even keep your trolls straight.
June 14, 2008 3:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
Which is why I didn't cite you as being an entertaining troll. You are simply tiresome.
June 14, 2008 4:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
not Rec'd.
it only takes one call of open thread to start this nonsense.
one person to disagree with your honest question, your well-fleshed ideas, your earnest devil's advocacy.
then a mob of people might descend on your post with inanities about their cats, medieval poetry, unpublished personal works, etc. and hijack a discussion that you thought might benefit a community that you respect, and one that you thought respected you.
there is a zealous attitude about troll-hunting and troll-labelling here that is reminiscent of mccarthy hunting communists.
i for one will not participate in any mob mentality against newcomers; i will not take part in any shouting down of new voices. i also don't believe anyone who's been named by any commenter in this thread or the OP is actually a troll, i think they are long-time, strongly-opinionated, valuable, and rather clever members of the community. and disagreements with them can be very rewarding, although they can get ugly too.
about the only exception i can make to this is what happened to michelle b@#$#@%@'s first post the other day, the "poetry rave," i guess mr. hocking called it. DINOS who would make direct assaults on party unity in a presidential election year are either trolls and traitors, and can only hurt us and help the GOP.
reasoned discourse, smart questions, and yes, fair devil's advocacy (without actually encouraging democrats to jump ship, as michelle b did), even if it's seemingly coming from one particular poster again and again, shouldn't be interpreted as trolling.
that's just reasonable skepticism. a dear departed journalist would want us to respect and encourage reasonable skepticism of our own party just as much as the opposition.
June 14, 2008 2:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, Seaton is a prince in frog's clothing: http://seaton-newslinks.blogspot.com/2008/06/take-eat-this-valium.html. This is also a reply to artappraiser who seems to find this man's opinions so sophisticated.
June 14, 2008 4:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
your link doesn't work.
i only read the one blog by david seaton, the one where he speculates that since the rumors about the michelle obama tape haven't died, the tape might actually exist.
while it was kind of screwy in its logic, i didn't think it was enough to call him a troll.
i'll admit i haven't read any of his other stuff, which is why i wasn't ready to call him a troll yet. if you post 2 or 3 links to really offensive stuff authored by him, i will agree with you and call that a record of troll-type behavior.
June 14, 2008 10:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
n/m.
i found it.
i haven't read enough yet to decide, but it all looks like fairly standard rightwing positions.
sword of damocles, by itself, wasn't trolling.
posting it without being more clear about his personal politics was deceptive, though.
June 14, 2008 11:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
So, Seaton is a victim of "mob mentality" because he comes on this site and peddles the most inane bullshit as truth and then doesn't have the stones or ability to defend his arguments? Sorry, that has zero merit as an argument. He is neither reasonable nor a skeptic. If that's all it was, I wouldn't call it out for being "troll" behavior. Seaton was pulling the same shit when it was Barack versus Hillary. Now he is doing it on behalf of McCain. Posting half-truths and out-right lies and then crying foul when we call him out on it.
He's no Euro lefty at all, let alone a socialist of any stripe. He's a bitter ex-pat at best. He defends his illogical stances on things based on impressions of America formed 40 years ago and not updated since. He has a bystanders' view of America yet acts as though he is a subject-matter expert.
In the short time I have been here, Seaton has been corrected over and over by many people here yet he continues to post slanderous shit about Barack. I suppose it is incumbent upon us to simply ignore it. We don't have a duty and a right to call out these tactics? Isn't that how we got into our current situation as a country?
People call me an "Obama Troll" because of my passionate rebuttal of lies. So be it. I have yet to care what other people think of me or what I write. If pointing out obvious bullshit tactics around here gets one branded as a troll or, gasp, impolite, that is a price I am willing to pay.
June 14, 2008 3:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Why is it that when you use the word "rebutt" I picture you sticking your head up your ass over and over again?
June 14, 2008 4:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
For reasons I am not qualified to diagnose much less prescribe a cure.
June 14, 2008 5:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
Maybe the cure is up your ass. Keep looking.
June 14, 2008 9:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
You have an unhealthy fascination with my ass. That might be a good place to start your therapy.
June 15, 2008 9:03 AM | Reply | Permalink
I've just never seen a man stick his head so far up his own ass before. It's amazing you don't suffocate.
June 15, 2008 2:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
You don't understand jack shit, do you? It does neither you nor your candidate any good to misunderstand and mislabel someone who dislikes your candidate, you learn absolutely nothing by doing that, and your candidate gains zilch, maybe even negatives. Here it seems like you've never heard of a lefty who doesn't trust Obama, so you have to label them a McCain supporter.
News flash! There's another one of what you call those "McCain trolls" right on the front page of TPM Cafe right now, questioning and doubting about Obama:
Obama: Neoliberal, or Civic Republican? Or you can go over to the leftist site counterpunch.org and find this: Why I Can't Support Barack Obama You're going to be seeing a lot more of these "McCain trolls" as he moves further to the center for the election. Ya know, a smart Obama supporter on the net would be trying to help win over lefties who don't like him. But no, people like you dismiss them and label them McCain trolls not worth talking to, leaving them to follow through with voting for Ralph Nader or Socialist Worker's Party. I'm personally really worried about him losing more left turnout as he comes out with more of his centrist positions.
What a way to "help" a campaign, playing childish games about mislabeling people as trolls rather than trying to discuss and convince in good faith.
June 14, 2008 8:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
You sure have done your best to raise the bar around here, huh, Lamont? I am reminded of kettles and pots.
June 15, 2008 8:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
Mr. Seaton's words on McCain vs Obama are right there on page one of his blog - where he's certainly not shy about his pro-McCain and (quite viciously) anti-Obama views. I give him points for clarity on this at least.
(1) Seaton explicitly states that he supports voting for McCain, but wants a Dem majority to hold McCain in check.
(2) Seaton finds Obama to be "worse than George W. Bush," a "vile and unprincipled opportunist," and states that Obama is "either the most cynical demagogue who has ever graced our fair Republic, or bat shit crazy, or both";
(3) As he stated at TPM, he believes the "Whitey" tape of Michelle's exists, and debates whether Hillary, McCain, Rev. Wright or a 15 year old kid will launch it;
(4) Describes Obama's anti-rumour web-site as "a little sinister," and queries whether this is "out and out intimidation;"
And as I said, he suggests it would be in America's best interests to have another 8 years of Bush, to serve the same purpose as the 40 years of Franco did for Spain.
If I may, this guy is not a McCain troll. But nor is he a bog-standard Euro-Leftie, as some have proposed. He's either well into the world of Trot-talk (let's make things really REALLY appalling, then we get a revolution); or, he's a very deeply disillusioned & embittered exile. Both of which I'm happy to spend some time exploring, but not too frequently. Yup, he could be right on every single point. But so might LaRouche.
Which means, as I said, I apologize for calling the guy a troll - my dumb - but I also stand by my original prescription. When I see him, I shall skip to the loo. They got a better class of paper in there.
June 15, 2008 1:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
Second the motion. And take Jason with you. Wipe his head off.
June 15, 2008 2:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
Jason, I hear you. I am not saying that Seaton is victim of mobbing. I want to be clear on that.
All I was advocating is that we take him on a post by post basis. Perhaps you already have and are trying to alert us to a danger. I just looked him up. I find it interesting that he's placed himself so forcefully here. But again, why should he not. TPM is not an Obama site, even though most of the posters and commenters support Obama.
I'm saying that we need not be afraid of opposing views and should trust in ourselves to take these views on and shred them. Seaton is so yestereday, and bitter.
June 15, 2008 3:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
Trust me, if he was peddling the same bullshit about Hillary or any other candidate, I would be all over it.
I am not opposed to opposing views, despite what Billy Gladd and Don and others might suggest. I will fight forcefully and with every rhetorical weapon at my command to keep my candidate from being unfairly attacked or positioned with lies.
That is why Gore and Kerry lost, because democrats are such pussies when it comes to defending themselves. The neocons have been kicking our ass for 40 years with this shit.
I have had enough. In fighting back, we take the advantage back. I agree, though, that it won't be pretty.
June 15, 2008 8:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
Takes one to know one.
You, however, have the added "talent" of using ridiculously juvenile levels of hyperbole:
So ironic that you refer to Hearst's yellow journalism there, you seem to like attempting to rile about devious plots here, there and everywhere.
Humility, it's underrated, try it some time. Ever have doubt? Show it if you want to look like you know something.
June 14, 2008 7:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
So ironic that you don't comment to anything I actually said in that blog and go right to something that will make me look "bad" because Russert has since died. Is that the best you can do, Lamont?
June 15, 2008 9:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
PS: You wouldn't know humility if it hit you in the face with your own rose-colored glasses.
June 15, 2008 9:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
Perhaps you could step away from your primary election victimization long enough to realize that Obama supporters were no more demonic than Hillary, many much less so. Also, there is a difference between healthy skepticism and mental illness or paranoia.
Of course, your long-standing complaints revolve around how evil we are or hypnotized or whatever. Your opinions are hardly objective on this front. You take whatever chances you can to stick to the Obama supporters. So, if you are somehow claiming to be a democrat but keep slamming the democratic nominee, I hate to break it to you, but that is kind of trollish behavior as well.
Did you even bother to take the time to look up the man's record before you denigrate him as being politics as usual? It is quite clear from the positions he has perused his entire political career (both in Illinois and DC) has been decidedly outside the norm of democratic political thought and action.
But this is much more fun for you right? To try and drag us down into your cynical little play-world were everyone is out to get you and Hillary Clinton was the only true hope we had, which us evil Obama supporters ruined.
I am all for intellectual debate that actually respects the truth and reality. As long as illogical tools like Seaton keep coming around, I will keep doing my best to counter their insanity. I suppose I can add you to that list given your rants in here.
Read your post again, then come back to offer your opinions.
A troll is someone who post illogical nonsense, usually FILLED with lies and innuendo. Then, this person can't defend said crap without using insults and one-liners when people call them out on it. Being a troll has nothing to do with one's opinions, however stupid and ill-informed they may be. Being a troll is about method and Seaton's method is troll all the way. See below for just one of hundreds of examples.
June 15, 2008 8:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
This a reply was to Don Key's last up above.
June 15, 2008 9:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
Jason,
Okay, I’ve re-read my comment and wouldn’t change a word (I said what I meant to say). Now re-read your comment: I am not only a troll, now, but possibly mentally ill and paranoid with my long-standing complaints about hypnotized Obama-ites? I post on all kinds of threads. In fact, I almost wrote an effusive post praising a very good comment of yours on an impeachment thread the other day but had to leave and never got back to it. Just as well, as you’ve gone back to you’re Dr. Jekyll mode. The threads where I criticize Obama supporters here are usually about that (i.e. trolls, Clinotn hate, why some Dem voters aren’t coming back, etc.).
I have no idea how much you investigated the candidates, but I read reams of articles and news reports on the major ones. I suspect you may have missed a few about Obama working with corporate interests to get things thorough. I have listened to few of their stump speeches or ads. I came to my conclusions about Obama only after looking into his political history and trying to suss out his positions (he being the least specific on policy proposals). I was surprised, for example, last week when people acted shocked at his AIPAC speech because it was little different than his previous addresses on I-P.
This is a site for progressive political discussion but no one here has any more authority than anyone else, regardless of who they support or even if they are a Democrat. Name-calling (especially this subjective, ambiguous “troll” label) has no place here. If someone writes something that is so illogical and propagandistic it requires a reply, then take it apart piece by piece and show it to be the crap it is. If there is a real troll clogging up threads to the point of impeding communication, let Andrew know.
June 15, 2008 7:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
I never considered you a troll, Don, but you must admit that you have had long-standing issues with Obama supporters. Again, just calling us "Obamites" is extremely derogatory and dismissive of people who did every bit as much research on our candidate and came to different conclusions.
You seem to take issue with a term used on the blogs to indicate an obnoxious asshole. Would it be more acceptable to you if I simply called people obnoxious assholes? Would that become confusing if someone was being an obnoxious asshole just that one time and wasn't necessarily troll-like in their overall demeanor? Troll seems much simpler, if a tad more vague.
Personally, the only time someone becomes a "troll" in my eyes is after the umpteenth million time doing just what you suggested once again falls on deaf ears. Seaton is a perfect example. How many times do we have to debunk his lies? At some point, it saves time to simplify our complaints to: He's an obnoxious asshole.
As far as Obama, I have no doubt that he will partner with all kinds of people and organizations to get things passed. I also have no doubt, based on his novels and his resume, that he is far more progressive than he can actually run as and still win. Taking a ten-thousand foot view of the legislation he has championed, shows someone who can lay in long-term strategies and then pursue incremental steps to get there. Like government transparency and ethics reform become the building blocks of longer-term goals of changing the way the game is played in Washington. The first step to changing the rules, though, is understanding how the game is played. I don't begrudge Barack his short apprenticeship in DC learning the ropes and playing the game.
That is how a progressive runs an insurgent campaign from within the existing power structure and actually win.
Your constant nit-picking and inability to simply agree to disagree with our view of Barack is what starts to border on trollish behavior for me. I don't doubt that you comment on many things. I have seen plenty that you offered with which I agreed. However, when it comes to Obama and his supporters, you don't have a lot of objectivity and tend to go out of your way to paint the lot of as a bunch of low-info voters who have been taken in by the hype. This continues to be your opinion no matter how much we try to explain why that isn't the case. Trollish on your part? A little bit.
I'll let the community decide what is or isn't considered being a troll. It is obvious based on this thread that there are plenty of definitions to go around.
June 16, 2008 8:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
Truth is, I do have some long-standing issues with some of the contributors here who I think have spread some false viral ideas but I don’t think I project that on others. I argue when some still try to smear Clinton or non-Obama supporters, and the use of the “troll’ label has been one way that some have tried to filter out those who don’t follow their political POV.
Seaton is not the devil. If your or Obama’s ideas are sound, he can’t damage them. Argue with his ideas and show them to be ridiculous or ignore them but censoring diverse voices only reinforces what has already become something of an (scusé) echo chamber. I remember at one point in the heat of the primary when there were three recommended threads at the same time devoted to trollery and exposing the evil trolls or ridiculing them. How many of those trolls do you think were Obama supporters?
I don’t have a problem with Obama supporters (at this point, I’m one) and I used Obama-ites because I couldn’t think of another follower suffix that wouldn’t be offensive to some who may be, just may be, too sensitive about these things. I used to say Obamaniacs because that is what one intense Obama supporter used to refer to himself as, but then people started taking it as a slur. But really, Jason, does that compare in any way to the utter demonization of the Clintons and their followers? You’re right that I’ve focused too much on trying to combat what I saw as a lot of ganging up and bullying of some good people who had been a part of interesting conversations here for a long time (and half the Dem Party). Anyway, the primary is over and I’ll be as happy as anyone here if we start seeing more real issues discussed and less gotcha BS. Peace
June 17, 2008 1:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
Peace as well, Don. It is inevitable that we would each see things from our own perspective - mine as an Obama supporter, you as a Clinton supporter. Thus, any slings and arrows against our candidates will seem more numerous than for the other guy. Sounds like human nature to me. Glad we could at least start moving down the road toward rational discussion, though. :O)
June 17, 2008 6:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
Hey, SPQR, I find you to be a very thoughtful person who is willing to take another look at their positions previously held. That is a rare commodity on-line and one that am trying to emulute with varying degress of success.
I am not quite sure what the standard definition of trolling is, but I think you may have come close when a person's behavior on-line is pretending to an objectivity or political thinking that one doesn't actually have.
Case in point, Seaton. I will admit he is a clever troll, but anyone who spends then minutes on his site should be able to at least come away with the knowledge that he is far from progressive or a democrat.
June 15, 2008 8:50 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for this list, Quinn. I am not quite sure at this passionate defense of an obviously delusional head-case. You would think I called Mother Theresa a whore or something.
June 15, 2008 8:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
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