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29 Words: The Reason Obama Won the Primary and Will Win the General

"The best way to show that a stick is crooked is not by arguing about it or spending time denouncing it, but to lay a straight stick alongside it"

-DL Moody

He just played it straight.  They didn't know how to fight it.  They still don't.  They won't in November. 


Comments (153)

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What a stupid post.

should be right up your alley then.

Nice one.


Perfect example of the "crooked stick" approach of a bitter surrogate...

Have to say, these surrogates here were some of the crookedest on the blogs, especially when it came time to justify the kitchen sink and it's inevitable divisive aftermath...

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Like usual, these things go over the Clinton supporters heads.

Thank you for a fine demonstration of the crooked stick next to the straight stick of this post.

LOL

Otto F:

Have you forgotten? You are not permitted to vote for Obama in the fall. So no worries for you!

Otto, you are a crooked stick.

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Nicely and succinctly said, MassDem.

Recommended!

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The sad thing about this post is I think you actually believe it.

Oceankat:

You are hereby served notice that you will not be permitted to vote for Obama in the General Election.

You may instead:

a) Vote for McCain
b) Write in Hillary's name
c) Vote for a 3rd party candidate
d) Write in anyone else's name, or
e) Sit out the election

Under no circumstances, however, are you permitted to vote for Obama. You will be monitored for compliance.

Thanks for your cooperation in this matter.

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You know ct, there's this gathering I go to that has occurred for about the last 30 years over the fourth of July. Just a bunch of hippies, sometimes 20 or 30 thousand of them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_Gathering

There are high spiritual beings that show up and down and out alcoholics and drug addicts and everything in between. Kinda like the internet, people who show up often chose a new name, a rainbow name. So you'll have Giggles or Nightshade, Sunshine and Hugger. You'll also have people who call them self Buddha or Eagleman Shaman. While often NA elders or people of high consciousness in various religious traditions often are there unless you sit down with them and really pay attention its hard to know who these people are. They tend to keep a low profile. But I've learned over the years that when a person feels the need to call themselves Buddha, Eagleman, or, well, clearthinker, its pretty much a given that they are not.

This is somehow supposed to bolster your argument that this post is stupid?

If anything, it makes your comment more ironic, since you clearly believe that subtlety is more effective than being in someone's face.

Why can't you take your own advice?

Oh! Oh!

What does my name say about me?

That you're not batshit crazy?

Oceankat, I am surprised and a little confused. From what I read of The Gathering I would think you would support Obama. I am totally confused now because it seems that Hillary's stances are completely anthemic to what the group you cited stands for.

From the page you cited:

espousing and practicing ideals of peace, love, harmony, freedom and community, as a consciously expressed alternative to mainstream popular culture, consumerism, capitalism and mass media.

Now I am not a Christian (at least not anymore), but his speech on the role of religion and politics espouses how we can bridge our differences, promote community and bring about a more unified country.
http://obama.senate.gov/speech/060628-call_to_renewal/index.php

Also on from the Gathering page you cited it shows the importance of community and activism, of which Obama has been a vocal advocate. The most recent at Wesleyan.
http://www.wfsb.com/news/16389467/detail.html

I am wondering why, as a Gathering attendee and advocate, you are so criticizing of a candidate that seems to reflect many of The Gathering's stances?

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rotflmao

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oceankat,

It's such a shame you went to all those gatherings (I've been to one myself, and spent time with Rainbow family on many more occassions - beautiful times... magic times...) ...

...yeah, it's a shame you went to all those gatherings and didn't even bother to drink the kool-aid.

Where was your mind at at dawn?

Rainboooooooow! Rainbow Jah!


You clearly must have left your bongos at home.

Bummer.

Nice image that tells the tale. I can see it as a political cartoon. Do you draw? in which a picture is worth

I don't but I guess it would be easy - stick figures?

You've made the other crooked sticks angry. Excellent!

I do seem to have touched a nerve, haven't I?

Buckminster Fuller proved there are no straight lines. Your perception of "straight" is only an issue of your tolerance for "crooked". However the definition of "straight" is relative to the environment. On a spherical surface, the "straightest path" between two points follows a great arc, not a latitude line, which is why planes fly over Iceland to get to Europe. Of course we're not talking so much about facts here as the consensus of village elders, kind of like you see in Papua New Guinea beating the ground with sticks and grunting a lot and occasionally shoving each other until the definition of "truth" reveals itself. (Tossing a witch into a pond is quicker, but not as fun).

Digress. Distort. Rinse. Repeat.

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Exactly how does taking 59 delegates from the Michigan primary, in which no one voted for Saint Obama, represent playing it straight? And of course this includes taking away a proportional four delegates from Senator Clinton based upon Michiganders who actually voted for her.

Yup, "straight-shooting" Saint Obama and his sycophants strike again.

Repeating the HRC "crooked-speak" is no way to win an argument.

I trust you realize, pmSF, that the 69-59 ratio was proposed by the Michigan state party, and enthusiastically defended by Carl Levin -- up till now, Hillary Clinton's chief backer in the state?
Is Levin now one of Obama's sycophants?

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Not only was it the Michigan Party and Levin behind it, but the RBC vote was 19-8. For the curious among you, that means that 5 HRC idolators nevertheless voted for the compromise, which was more than she deserved in any case.

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How terrible of Sen. Obama to allow Michigan and the DNC to resolve their problems! I mean, you'd think that this was a proposal by the Michigan Democratic Party as an equitable way to resolve it-- Oh wait, it was.

I mean, it's not like Sen. Obama could have said "Hey, the law that moved this was unconstitutional. Hillary said she wouldn't participate. She said it was a meaningless contest. Screw it, split it 50/50, we'll call it done."-- Oh wait, he could have, and it would have passed. But his campaign felt that was too draconian.

Finally, if you like the guy who runs fivethirtyeight.com, check out his analysis based on what *should* have happened for Michigan's primary. After going through it district by district, he came up with... 69 to 59, in Sen. Clinton's favor.

pmSanFran, you still don't get it, do you? Obama pulled his name from the ballot, which means he was above the system. So being above the system, when they reapportioned, he gets a portion of the votes from within the system. It's called tithing, something for the Lord, something for the higher power, one for the Buddha, etc. 4 delegates is only 6 or 7% or so, which is less than the common 10% that he would normally get, so actually he's being generous - he should have gotten 6. Because we know that Obama would have done much better with campaigning - look at how he did with the white vote in neighboring Ohio Indiana Pennsylvania Illinois.

This year was not the first time MI pulled this BS. In the two prior years that they did this ALL major candidates removed their names from the ballot. Clinton is the first one to fail to do so. You can see tose prior year results here http://www.michigan.gov/documents/MichPresPrimRefGuide_20863_7.pdf

Horrors of horrors, you mean Michigan has been fighting this screwed up system so many years? Try this article:

---
My smart friend Ron Brownstein, political director of Atlantic Media and a former political columnist for the Los Angeles Times, explained it to me this way:

We don't nominate presidents anymore by getting to the point where somebody has a majority of the delegates. We nominate someone when we get to the point that there is a communal sense that one of the candidates has effectively won the nomination and the race is over.
---
So Michigan and Florida know that the delegates themselves that in general don't matter, that it's who gets pandered after that matters, the ability to influence the election just be having the vote. And the DNC has proved this concept right yet again, by demanding for the last few months that Hillary just give up, and for allocating delegates that weren't earned. All your bases are belong to us, resistance is futile.

Sorry, "just by having the vote early".

This is just crap Des. The DNC had the country at its heart. We all know how the momentum thing goes. The only way to even that out is to have a good cross section of states who go first. One from the hearland (Iowa), one from the northeast (NH), one from the west (NV) and one from the south (SC). This gives a good platform from which to launch the rest of the primaries.

Levin's biggest bitch was he felt the industrial states were not adequately represented. Well if you want to slice and dice, there are a lot of subsets that are not represented. The fact is the DNC picked representative states by demographic makeup, hence the 4 in the preprimary window. I think it is shitty that these outside states hijack the primary process as a platform to scream. Why not do their screaming BEFORE the primary season begins. For that matter, where the hell was Hillary screaming about how unfair caucuses were before this primary season? She was loud enough after the 2000 election. Once in the sentate what did she do? I'll tell you NOTHING.

Yes and in all those years only one candidate has tried to game the system, Hillary. In the end she cheated and lost anyway. It must hurt to compromise yourself ethicaly for no gain.

Or Wisconsin

You are also disingenuous, Desidero. It was Sen. Clinton's apparatchiks in the state of Michigan who pushed hardest to move the primary up, believing that the earlier the primary, the bigger her boost would be from name recognition.
If you want to talk about political pussyfooting around and double dealing, let's start with where the problems with this ill-starred primary started.

My my my, how did the lovely Senator from New York get apparatchiks in Michigan - it seems so...so... Politburo-ish.

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"[H]ow did the lovely Senator from New York get apparatchiks in Michigan[?]"

Simple-- all it takes to be an HRC apparatchik (or more likely, apparatchitsa) is an abiding belief that she deserves to be president even though she is a pathological liar, even though what little she has achieved, she achieved not owing to her talents and especially not to her personality, but to the exposure that comes from having married Bill Clinton, and maybe also as payback for having that shit-eating dog of a husband diss her so cruelly.

Presidential candidacy is not intended as therapy for a character disorder or wounded self-esteem.

Nor are blog comments.

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Will you then subside?

Obama could have taken a 50/50 split. He had the votes. He opted for the 59-69 compromise as an olive brand a show of party unity. Clinton supported shat all over it.

pm sanfran, you know the anser to this question so don't be disingenuous. How does staking a claim on an illegitimate primary, with front-running candidates names not even on the ballot represent anything other than cheap banana republic politics? Get a grip.

"Disengenuous" twice in one thread. I'm afraid I'm going to have to call the language police on you. Sentenced to one evening with Roget's Thesaurus and a bottle of claret. We'll see who wins.

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My money is on the claret.

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I think you touched a nerve, like Donna Brazile and Everette Ward touched nerves. The truth may set you free, but evidently, it also hurts.

Being straight is certainly what got me behind Barack Obama.

He ran a fabulous campaign. Almost perfect. Played by the rules. Stayed focused. Maintained his dignity. Kept his cool. Talked to us like adults. Amazing.

And when he is put side-by-side with John McCain the contrast between the two will be overwhelming. Add to that his team's awesome technical skills in running a campaign, and I think John McCain is going to wish he had Bob Dole's numbers in November.

And, best of all, Clinton's supporters are going to have a Democratic White House in January!

Yes. Anyone trying to say anything about November is short on imagination about what it's going to be like in the debates.

After the debates only the 27% who still think Mr. Bush is great stuff will think Mr. McCain is the correct choice.

I've never seen that quote before. Nice and pithy like your post. Not surprising the quote came from a preacher man.

Yeah, we all know that preacher men are kooks right? I mean look and MLK....oh wait....

You're getting ahead of yourself. I was in no way demeaning DL Moody or preachers. I was just expressing that I'm not surprised that such a pithy and righteous (on the positive sense of the word) aphorisms came from the mouth of a preacher. I'm sorry you read something into the comment that isn't there.

Great response! Nothing like blaming the reader of your words rather than your nice and pithy phrasing...

I'd still like to point out Frank Rich's first strong Obama article which give great points about why the senator from Illinois will win:

By FRANK RICH
Published: December 2, 2007

"JUST 24 hours after Hillary Clinton mowed down a skeptical Katie Couric with her certitude that she would win the Democratic nomination — “It will be me!” — her husband showed exactly how she could lose it..."

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/02/opinion/02rich.html

I've gone back to this article several times over the course of the nomination battle and it's aged well like fine wine, and is stronger with time.

That's rich - a major columnist who couldn't manage to write an anti-war column working for a magazine that aided the administration by publishing false details and go-along-with-it op-eds for a year criticizes a freshman minority Senator for not leading an insurrection to topple a President with 90% popularity and over 70% approval for war.

Which part of "gonzo wacko deranged" do you identify with better? Obama spoke out "loudly"? Nobody even knew he spoke. Jesse Jackson Sr. was the headliner, and they didn't even film Obama speaking it was such a non-event. It was only through shameless self-promotion - the only kind Obama knows - that we even know this speech exists. (It's one of the few records of him we have from that archaic time back before we discovered stone, papyrus and paper trails). And now that we have Rev. Wrights "goddamn America", I think we can easily dismiss the part of the story that says this was a courageous speech.

I promised not to comment on idiotic posts anymore, but I just have to call this out as more troll idiocy from someone who has proved again and again that they are are not worthy of respect or even attention. We all need to not let this deranged McCain troll (or any of them) drive anymore conversations around here.

You may wish to disagree with Desidero, but this "troll thing" is rather silly and reflects poorly on any intellect you might want the reader to imagine you have. And that takes quite the imagination when reading comments such as this.

The need for many of you to treat threads as personal chat rooms in which one topic is "discussed," while discouraging others from commenting is lowly. It does the site no service, other than support the notion that its posters are more interested in some political version of MySpace. Shameful in my opinion. Even a bit troll-like, to use a word you favor.

When the person in question is clearly not willing to discuss anything in a rational and reasonable manner, that person is trolling or being a troll. I didn't just make that up and using the definition is hardly a reflection on my intelligence or lack thereof. It is a distinct type of poster with a distinct style that does nothing to contribute to the community or the conversation.

I find Desidero's comments above full of specific arguments and links. Not sure what you're talking about. This certainly seems to me some reflection of your willingness to express intellect thereof or elsewhere. There is plenty of good fun at TPM for satire, personal invective also, within pieces meant for that purpose. If you want to take on Desidero at issues of style, content, and personality, why don't you start a piece on that subject? I'm sure that such a piece would be interesting in many ways. And fun too.

But comments from you in this thread, a supposed thoughtful political discussion, make my point.

" I am glad that our troll brigade seems to consist of only a half dozen halfwits or so. Most of them showed up for this thread, making it easier to counter them all at once."

I repeat. This kind of playground mobbing does the TPM site no service, other than support the notion that its posters are more interested in some political version of MySpace and infotainment.

It's an issue of balance, thereof.

You are saying we should continue correcting the same spin over and over and over again from the same people? Or just stay silent and let the not-so-subtle whisper campaign continue without a response?

There are no facts and no links in D's comments above. There never are. They are uniformly nasty about Obama, his supporters and any points we may care to make about any subject at any time. He is unfailingly snide and presents fanciful opinions as if they were fact.

Perhaps you missed this gem:

It was only through shameless self-promotion - the only kind Obama knows - that we even know this speech exists.

If you are going to quote me out of context, perhaps I will share the piece that made me make that comment in the first place:
Axelrod is crowned the new Rove! Congratulations, Democrats, we've finally become Republicans.

The general election campaign should be an interesting sociological experiment, especially since Rove will have no qualms about race-baiting, and no legacy (that can be traced back to him, anyway) to protect.
Yeah, these guys aren't exhibiting "trollish" behavior at all. They present reasonable and rational arguments that intelligent people can discuss in intelligent ways.

To quote their favorite president ever: "Give me a break."

I am sorry if you feel it necessary to correct something that had nothing to do with you, but I can and will call anyone I want out for continuing to pollute the political discourse around here. If enough of us stood up to this bullshit before now, perhaps we wouldn't be two-steps away from George Orwell's worst nightmare.

I use a slightly different definition of Troll. I consider a Troll someone who never writes their own posts, but only posts snide, ignorant simplistic comments in other threads. I give Desidero credit, he posts snide, ignorant and simplistic comments AND writes his own posts.

Otto F is the prime example of a troll, he never tells you what he thinks, only that he doesn't like what you think. His approach is the height of cowardice and about as respectful as someone who throws rocks off of an overpass.

I wish I could ignore, but in absence of refutation, repetition begins to sound like truth.

I would agree that D is a special kind of troll, with a style that is different from Otto. Otto is obviously a troll, whereas D is much more subtle.

I am not even sure he is a republican in disguise yet or simply a smart ass who likes to tweak people's noses on-line. An ignore feature would be the best, then I wouldn't even be tempted to respond to bullshit and eventually most people would tune them out.

Separate from the issues of who has the right to "call people out" and whether I should have the right to "correct something that has nothing to do with.. (me) , I'd like to add some interpretation for Desidero's first comment. He's a fellow I almost never agree with politically, but if anyone at TPM deserves to be here by measure of a high level of intellectual sophistication matched with post-modern artfulness in its expression, I'd say it is he, thereof.

The original poster based his piece on this quote:

"The best way to show that a stick is crooked is not by arguing about it or spending time denouncing it, but to lay a straight stick alongside it"

Desidero in his first comment hinted at the possibility that thinking in a so-called "straight line" might be falling for the obvious. He did so by referencing Buckminster Fuller. I'm at a loss to see why this is not sophisticated and nuanced. He then says that " the definition of 'straight' is relative to the environment. Yet again a nuanced argument. He then invokes a more universal view of what constitutes informed thinking with
references to a global culture, and finally to a bit of anthropology. I don't agree with it at the surface level, but I get what he's saying, and I don't take it as his literal belief since his is a global mindset (read about his musical taste, for example). The final witch reference puts us into another historical world as well.

I see a link in another comment from him. I see a quote from the LA Times. There's more. That he couches his sophistication in provocative faux anger, or often real anger, and that his references might require a look-up here and there about an author, philosopher, a culture, and history --well I don't think that constitutes your definition of a "troll."

You just don't like his political position. That's not enough to try and keep him--or others --from entering a discussion.
One could make the point that this kind of marginalizing, because you don't want to hear a position, that you don't like or understand his style, well, that kind of repression is really George Orwell's worst nightmare.

If you want to remain fooled by D's rather obvious tactics, then by all means please go ahead. I have sparred with D many times and won't go out of my way to antagonize, but certainly won't allow obvious spin to go without comment.

It has nothing to do with agreeing or not agreeing. D takes the contrarian line, every time, to incite anger and division. To say that there is no such thing as a straight line and all is subjective is exactly the type of Doublespeak I would expect from that wing of the "democratic" party. That is DLC corporate-friendly revisionism all the way. Either that or he is a neocon here to make things worse between Clinton and Obama supporters. D's methods are transparent and obvious.

Not sure who made you the moderator, anyway. Since you don't use your own name, you could very well be Desidero commenting to me as some sort of alter-ego to continue the misinformation campaign he is bent on waging here. I wouldn't put it past him given the nature of his commentary here over the multiple weeks of my own personal observation.

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Jason, you're acting like a troll again.

Thanks, Mrs. No Pic Now a Pic, yes it is hard to imagine me considered a troll in the simplistic meaning of the (internet) word. Little baby Allsburg had a trolling contest into which we invested all our smug and variant talents into trolling contrariwise, period pieces, and other styles that required limber and may I say downright Simian proclivities to find the right level of contortion. But after a few days, the game wears off and I'd rather return to matters that actually interest me, whether posed as a riddle or a poem.

I'm afraid Jason is just not up to engaging in anything close to intellectual exploration, whether it involves confronting profanity, humor or just hold card facts. He'd rather dismiss contrary views and chalk it all up to conspiracy - if you notice, he's been getting a might bit paranoid of late and is starting to lash out at those he considers on his side as well. I'm afraid once you start seeing shadows, the whole world takes on quite a fright. Well, let's not tarry too much on this, the night is young and we've bigger fish to fry. You bring a line, I'll bring a pole, honey, honey, you bring a line, I'll bring a pole, babe....

And now that we've had our little moment of cross-cultural/species understanding, could I ask a small favor? Could all 400 of you or however many of you there are lurking here head over to Projecting Billy Glad and click Recommend? A killer post on Project Management, and it's dying a certain death, cut down in the prime of its life under the mawkish banterings by Liam on narcissism. Breaks my heart, not for me, but for the kid. And narcissus is turned to a flower...

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Taking an allegorical comment out of context and then working with the a literal interpretation of it is disingenuous in its own right. This doesn't take a great mind, only a devious mind, throwing up chaff.

Is this haiku? Rave on - I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness, starving hysterical naked, dragging themselves through the negro streets at dawn, looking for an angry fix....

Ya holdin', lady? Natch.

That's rich - a major columnist who couldn't manage to write an anti-war column working for a magazine that aided the administration

That's rich - a supporter of the candidate who aided the administration in killing a million Iraqis criticizes a columnist for the same reason.

If you can't manage to read the candidate's whole speech and absorb it, there's not much I can do for you. You can't just go from one doggie treat to another - occasionally you need some nourishment you can dig your teeth into. But that means giving up the facile witticisms of Frank Rich and heading off for more intellectual fare. Up to it?

If you can't manage to read a comment and absorb it, there's not much point in your posting a response. Once again, slowly: it's rich that a Clinton supporter such as yourself would criticize Rich for his failure to criticize the war in Iraq, when Clinton enabled the entire enterprise in the first place (and only changed her position to the extent she perceived politically necessary). Got it?

Here's a Scooby snack. Roinx?

People with lame avatars shouldn't throw bones.

Also spräch Alte Mutter Hubbard. And so her poor dog got none.

I beg to differ:
Obama on the war
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lP9pFKNVIds

Lets contrast shall we?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3jppzkF0QM&feature=related

Well, I still say Hillary comes out better on the exchange ("Hussein was absolutely no threat to his neighbors"? From where did Obama get that news in Oct. 2002?), but will confess I though there was no video of Obama's speech. Point Mageduley.

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To paraphrase:

"The best way to show that a schtick is crooked is not by arguing about it or spending time denouncing it, but to lay a definitive Youtube clip alongside it."

So much for the "Obama only said these things at a rally nobody attended" meme.

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amber, thanks for re-introducing this Frank Rich piece from pre-primary time, December of '07. It was wonderful to re-read it and to realize that Rich had his finger on a wide perspective ahead of others. His article does 'age like fine wine' and get 'stronger with time'.

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Yes, and if certain nut cases here think that failure to oppose Bush's Excellent Iraq Adventure disqualifies a mere columnist from being quoted, how can they back a US Senator who, having actual power to do so, failed to oppose the Iraq debacle?

Go read her speech. The transcript's easy to find. If you need any help translating from English to English, just ask.

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It's her vote that counted, not her ass-covering speech.

Precisely.

And then, after you read her speech, which she now paints as giving inspectors more time versus invasion, check out her meeting just a few weeks before the invasion:
"There is a very easy way to prevent anyone from being put in harms way, and that is for Saddam Hussein to disarm. And I have absolutely no belief that he will. I have to say that this is something I have followed for more than a decade. If he were serious about disarming, he would have been much more forthcoming. There may be progress, we may be destroying (some?) missles, but there is no accounting for the chemical and biological stocks, and I just respectifully disagree about what the proximate cause of any action that might be taken is"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZcY6TGfAxE
So much for her vote to give the inspectors more time huh?
I wish all women would listen, really listen to the questions these women are asking of Hillary. Her answers are decidedly neocon it is breadth and scope.

Obama has had several opportunities to vote to end the war by cutting off funding. He doesn't.

Neither does Clinton, but that's because there is nearly no difference between them on the issue of the Iraq War.

"The fact was, this was a big strategic blunder. It was not a matter of 'Well, here is the initial decision, but since then we've voted the same way.' Once we had driven the bus into the ditch, there were only so many ways we could get out. The question is: Who's making the decision initially to drive the bus into the ditch? And the fact is that Senator Clinton often says that she is ready on Day One, but, in fact, she was ready to give in to George Bush on Day One on this critical issue -- in fact, she facilitated and enabled this individual to make a decision that has been strategically damaging to the United States of America."
- Barack Obama Ohio Debate

Psst..your not supposed to let on. You're suppose to be positive but not certain. And then only at the last minute go: Bwa ha ha ha Obama's gonna win!

Who's that directed to army man?

It's only the best way when it works.

When it doesn't, it's the Kerry campaign.

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Damn!! I was all ready to say "right on!" until I saw S1m0n's post. And I guess he's right -- but, as much as I genuinely respect Kerry, from back in the 60s, and wish he'd become our president -- I think Obama is more skillful and will be able to make the mass of voters realize what is straight and what is crooked. ................. The irony, of course, is that compared to Bush, McCain far superior.

But a wonderful quote, MassDem -- it **certainly** explains the win in the primary!!

The big difference between Obama and Clinton in terms of strategy is that all along, he has been fighting over tomorrow, and she's been fighting over today.
He has, in other words, been one jump ahead of her at every turn. Often, by the time she had made an attack on Obama, he had already countered it.

The prefect example was his campaign's early fuss over superdelegates. On the surface, it looked like an attack on the party's system of electing nominees, but the real point was in underlinging the difference between elected and appointed delegates, and ensuring that the latter faced a crisis of legitimacy. Even then, the Obama campaign uinderstood that with his early lead, any clinton counter was going to come down to campaigning for superD votes. So, he took the steps to close off this route to victory. With the clear public impression created that elected delegates were more legit than superdelegates, he knew that the party would find itself unable to overturn the primary results. It was a *very* heads-up play; Obama was already playing the endgame before Hillary had really begun competing.

In the end, the party and the supers all ended up of the same mind--that Hillary was a walking disaster and they'd be crazy to pick her--but that wasn't foreordained.

Pm San Fran,

How is it that you can complain about getting a net gain of 10 delegates from Michigan when until yesterday there were no delegates from that state. Hillary didn't lose or have 4 delegates taken away because those delegates didn't exist until the Democratic rules committee voted to allow Michigan to come back into the fold.

Obama had the votes to split the Michigan delegates 50/50, but insted chose to give Hillary a net gain of 10 delegates and you still complain. Never being satisfied unless you get you way is not a good atribute to have.

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Hillary whined her way into bending the rules. Obama was not on the ballot in Michigan because HE FOLLOWED THE DNC rules! Michigan and Florida did not follow the rules. It's pretty black and white, sorry no pun intended.

I agree, Obama has run an ethical, solid, consistent and positive race. Hillary has, ala Clinton, run an aggressive, deceitful, dirty race. At last, ethics and integrity will prevail....BRING IT! I am ready for a straight shooter, unlike BUSH and Cheney.... CHANGE IS ACOMING....and I am very excited.... big sigh of relief. Free at last, Free at last.

The DNC didn't say to drop off the ballot. He's a shameless panderer, and did what would please New Hampshire and Iowa. Self-service actions don't count as noble efforts.

And Mrs. Clinton did not take her name off the ballot precisely because she new her self-interest would be served in bragging she won even though it didn't count. Shameless, Self-serving. teh only kind of politics she knows. If you have any examples of Mrs. Clinton being tempered by shame do tell.

She could not have been prescient enough to know she would lose the Iowa and SC and tie NV, and need to pretend later on that the vote really did count. But she sure intended to use it to her advantage.

Imagine trying to make the case to the unelected, non-representative branch of the delegate voters that they should overturn the decision of the majority of elected/representative delegates because she won an election that she knew did not count against opponents who were not listed on the ballot. Shameless.

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Wow, there's just no debating idiots like yourself who think of themselves as omnipotent and able to look into people's minds and discern their motives.

Do you think that the fact that the DNC vote came down two days before the deadline for removing your name from the ballot had anything to do with it? Of course in your stupid warped world that couldn't have anything to do with.

Take the f'ing party, it's yours. I've changed my registration to Independent and will no longer be sending any more money to the Democratic party.

Wow , I made you change your registration. You are either a pathetic wuss or a fraud. I suspect the later. Either way, if you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen. Where did I hear that one before?

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I assume you mean "latter" but of course the idiots who I leave the party to, like yourself, don't know how to spell let alone think logically. Have fun in your new democratic party.

... I think it should be "idiots, to whom I leave the party, ..."

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Assuming you're not a lying shill, don't let the doorknob hit you in the ass on your way out.

Carter and Kennedy interpreted it that way in 1980. Gore and Bradley did so in 2000. Your candidate is the first major candidate to interpret the DNC in that manner. When that many candidates interpret it the other way it makes Clinton look like she is being clintonian in her use of language, "it depends on the definition of participate."

Hillary is like the little league team who shows up at the field and claims victory by default because the other team didn't show up. (Never mind that the league headquarters specifically called everyone and informed them the game was cancelled).

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Your stuff gets weaker everyday, it is almost below my reaction threshold.

I dunno, "crooked stick"?

Can you imagine Nixon saying:

The people have a right to know if their president is a crooked stick. Well, I am not a crooked stick.

;-)

Rec'd!

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Axelrod is crowned the new Rove! Congratulations, Democrats, we've finally become Republicans.

The general election campaign should be an interesting sociological experiment, especially since Rove will have no qualms about race-baiting, and no legacy (that can be traced back to him, anyway) to protect.

In your mind the only way Hillary can lose is if the other guys cheat. So Axelrod must be Rove (why not Rasputin?) and Obama is Robert Mugabe.

It's absurd and makes you look a fool.

Of course, the fact that so many of Hillary's advisors/strategists believed that she could not lose speaks of how dramatically they underestimated their opponent. Sorry. Competition is unforgiving.

Clinton lost because she was unprepared for a straight up battle all the way to the finish. No excuse for that.

Great comment. I am glad that our troll brigade seems to consist of only a half dozen halfwits or so. Most of them showed up for this thread, making it easier to counter them all at once.

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Congratulations! You win the Most Ironic Comment Award!

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In your mind the only way Hillary can lose is if the other guys cheat. So Axelrod must be Rove (why not Rasputin?) and Obama is Robert Mugabe.

That's simplistic. And it's not what I'm saying.

First and foremost, I would never compare Obama to Mugabe. So fuck off for thinking I would.

Your comparison of Axelrod to Rove is way over the top and shows that your bitterness is clouding your judgment. I'm sure you;d rather hang out with those standup guys like Penn, Lanny D. Blumenthal and Ickes. Not a single untoward thought among them.

Mrs. Clinton herself made the unfortunate and ridiculous comparison to Zimbabwe. I was making fun of you since hyerbole seems to be the coin of the realm.

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If you could respond without attacking me and making assumptions about what's in my mind (see your first comment to me), then maybe we could have a reasonable debate. Obviously you can't do that, however.

In your second comment to me, you continue to attribute thoughts to me that I haven't voiced and make assumptions about me that are completely unwarranted.

So like I said: Fuck off.

Chill, Blow, there are more graceful, incisive, and might I say *cutting* ways to respond? Occam's Razor demands someone get hurt now and then.

Hillary's been compared to Rove and Clinton and Nixon countless times in this campaign. "Nixon in a pants suit" was one of Andy Sullivan's favorites, even as he was dreaming of a Giuliani/McCain ticket. At some point people just stop giving a shit.

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So a nationally televised committee meeting in which very strong Clinton supporters had multiple chances to make their case, and an equal vote (the FL vote was unanimous, and most Clinton supporters voted for the compromise) is somehow Rovian?

What on Earth are you talking about?

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Meanwhile, in an undisclosed location, far from the view of the nosy public:

The DNC’s Rules and Bylaws Committee is still not back and speculation among the press says they are hashing it out in private. Earlier today, FNC reported that a decision has already been made with regards to Florida. During a deliberation dinner that lasted until 2AM the committee members decided to go with Jon Ausman’s compromise and seat all of Florida’s delegates and give them half a vote each.

I guess you missed this part because it wasn't televised.

One word: Iraq.

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Two words: President McCain.

Oh, oh! I like games.

Three words: Bush dooms McCain

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I'll hold.

"President McCain" is the two word reason that Obama won the primary? That's plausible--nominating Clinton would have resulted in President McCain.

Love the avatar.

I'm a big Cowboy Bebop fan.

You, me, and many others.

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perfect

I'm torn. A good post, but a terrible, terrible thread. To recommend or not??

in my impartial opinion, you should recommend

The best way to show that a stick is crooked is not by arguing about it or spending time denouncing it, but to lay a straight stick alongside it.
True, but only to an impartial observer. To someone following the crooked stick, it is the straight stick that looks crooked.

Nice! - I love it, I wish I could recomment a comment on a thread.

As evidenced by the comments to this post. Great insight!

Straight is relative. From WSJ:

Rev. Wright's "like an old uncle who sometimes will say things that I don't agree with." A week later, Mr. Obama insisted, "I don't think my church is actually particularly controversial," suggesting that Rev. Wright was criticized because "he was one of the leaders in calling for divestment from South Africa and some other issues like that." The issue exploded on March 13, when ABC showed excerpts from Rev. Wright's sermons. Mr. Obama's spokesman said the senator "deeply disagrees" with Rev. Wright's statements, but "now that he is retired, that doesn't detract from Sen. Obama's affection for Rev. Wright or his appreciation for the good works he has done." The next day: "The statements that Rev. Wright made that are the cause of this controversy were not statements I personally heard him preach while I sat in the pews of Trinity or heard him utter in private conversation." […]Then, four days later, in Philadelphia, Mr. Obama finally repudiated Rev. Wright's comments, saying they "denigrate both the greatness and the goodness of our nation." But Mr. Obama went on to say, "I can no more disown him than I can my white grandmother. . . ." Ten days later, Mr. Obama said if Rev. Wright had not retired as Trinity's pastor, and "had he not acknowledged that what he had said had deeply offended . . . then I wouldn't have felt comfortable staying there at the church." (Never mind that Rev. Wright had made no such acknowledgment.) On April 28, at the National Press Club, Rev. Wright re-emerged – not to apologize but to repeat some of his most offensive lines. This provoked an eighth defense: "[W]hatever relationship I had with Rev. Wright has changed, as a consequence of this. I don't think that he showed much concern for me. More importantly, I don't think he showed much concern for what we are trying to do in this campaign . . . ."

Of course, Ayers was just a guy from the neighborhood (an English teacher?); Rezco was some guy he did five hours of paperwork for; his father was a goatherd; uncle liberated Auschwitz; father and mother met on a civil rights march; the Kennedy family paid for his father’s travel to America; etc.
Now, this might be more embellishment than embezzlement of the truth and it is all related to his family and associates (I left out the directly political stuff like Goolsbee/NAFTA). But, seeing as his story is central to his campaign, it’s important to lay a straight edge even to his biographical claims.

So what's your alternative? The Tuzla Tigress?

No. But let's be honest about it and demand better. Obama should have gotten in front of some of this early on. He may have wounded himself, not from his associations, but from his trying to play them off. He has not endeared himself to middle America with the "Appalachian" race stuff and fears of elitism and a tell-the-voters-one-thing (i.e. NAFTA, unity, etc.) image. You're right that there is nothing straight about Clinton's "sniper" story except that it was so absolutely outrageous and unreal as to defy an explanation of conscious fabrication. But the incessant demeaning of Clinton and her supporters as cheaters, racist, hysterical "femi-nazis" or saboteurs will cost Obama votes he can't afford to lose in the general. This has been an intra-party fight and I think the media has been on Obama's side for the most part. I only hope that it stays that way and voters end up seeing the real McCain (crooked as a dog's hind leg).

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"so absolutely outrageous and unreal as to defy an explanation of conscious fabrication"

She consciously tried to stick her story down America's throat even after the WaPo exploded it and Youtube blew away the remaining dust; she conveniently blamed it on sleep deprivation; she then lied about apologizing for it.

Let me set the scene for you. She is in front of a bunch of people (uniformed people, IIRC) and she says, ±, "Let me tell you about the snipers coming after me at Tuszla." This is well after she wrote (if indeed she wrote it, but at least she should have proofread it if, as is likely, some hack wrote it for her) in her book a reasonably accurate account of the day.

Now, I have two questions. What would make someone like her make up whole cloth some BS about sniper fire, and (2) What kind of deeply disordered thinking would lead someone to think she could get away with it in this day and age?

Would you prefer unconscious fabrication, and would you be willing to have another President with that problem?

I make no apologies for Clinton here, but I do think it’s in a different category of political embellishment than past political lies and is an interesting question. She plainly lied but if it had been invented out of whole cloth, it could not be forgiven. Obviously, for a politician under this electron microscope coverage to lie about an easily verified story (verified by her own writings, no less) likely means that they are not consciously lying but are misremembering.

As to whether the faulty memory is a mental defect or just a relic of a stressful and exhausting campaign is an open question. I think she was just trying too hard to bulk up her CiC bonafides and gradually escalated her story in her own mind, believing her own BS. That this appears to be the only big incident of a fabricated story as opposed to the usual spin they all do, I don’t think it says much of anything except as a passing political problem.

It’s troubling but can be excused. I put Obama’s many misstatements about his family history, though less fantastic, in the same category. Still, I understand how some voters would be leery after hearing these things. McCain , OTOH, seems borderline senile at times.

Since you mentioned NAFTA and Goolbee, just to verify, you agree with what Hillary said here?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dw1nx1Bqxg&feature=related

Hillary said he sent out "misleading and false information" on her position.
Really? What false information would that be?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YG00SWAqcvw

A far cry from mixing up the name of what Concentration Camp your relative liberated.

mageduley,
I can't view videos on this computer. I think the reference Clinton made to her position being distorted was about quoting her out of context saying that NAFTA would be a "boon," but it may be something else. I think all of the candidates have pandered and feigned positions on NAFTA. Again, Obama's problem with the Goolsbee meeting aside from the pandering was about the denials and obfuscations. Personally, I was outraged more by a Pres candidate making nod and wink deals with a foreign government (even Canada) behind closed doors though I guess it's not unusual and most voters didn't seem concerned about that aspect of it.

It is a shame you cannot see video, Don. Because I posted reports of the fact that it was actually the Clinton campaign giving the old wink wink and then framing Obama for it. Pretty sick if you ask me.

I watched the Olberman report, mageduley. It is a good example of how fabrications make the circuit and become “fact.” In fact, the quote by an “unnamed source” was denied by the PM's CoS it was attributed to. There was never any evidence of the Clinton camp talking to the Canadians who denied that she had and this was borne out by their investigation.

OTOH, the memo of the Goolsbee meeting showed pretty conclusively that Obama was signaling the Canadians that his anti-NAFTA rhetoric was just campaign pandering. Obama and co. had denied the meeting (non-denial denials) all along before the memo appeared. Anyway, it’s not that this episode is that bad in the realm of politics during a very long campaign, but with Obama’s above-it-all kind of posture, this hits him harder. And I hope that his people don’t think that any of these issues have been put to rest just because the press has moved on. What do you want to bet that the names Goolsbee or Pfleger or Ayers pass John McCain’s lips during a debate?

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What system are you referring to, the one in which the candidate pledges to remove her name from the ballot along with all the others only to sneakily leave it on and feign ignorance? That type of two-faced garbage is a system I have no interest in. Thankfully, the majority of the country and the Dems agre with me.

If the situation in MI was such a horrible blow to democracy, where were you and all the blowhards when MI was deciding to move their date forward? I didn't see any "die ins" in front of the MI Congressional building or the Governor's mansion a year ago.

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Please post a link to the pledges to remove candidates names from the MI & FL ballots. Thanks in advance.

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You all do realize that Clinton and Obama were not the only candidates at that time. Amazingly, Edwards, Dodd, Biden, Richardson, and Gravel all managed to abide by their own pledge and take their names off the ballot. Only Clinton, who also made the same pledge, decided to go back on her word and keep her name on it.

I thought Dodd remained on the ballot, no?

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Straight stick, eh?

Then there's the copy of Life magazine that Obama presents as his racial awakening at age 9. In it, he wrote, was an article and two accompanying photographs of an African-American man physically and mentally scarred by his efforts to lighten his skin. In fact, the Life article and the photographs don't exist, say the magazine's own historians.

...

Yet even Obama has acknowledged the limits of memoir. In a new introduction to the reissued edition of "Dreams," he noted that the dangers of writing an autobiography included "the temptation to color events in ways favorable to the writer ... [and] selective lapses of memory." He added: "I can't say that I've avoided all, or any, of these hazards successfully."

Straight stick?

well said indeed, you have proven that he is honest, even when it comes to his own mistakes.

Do I contradict myself? So I contradict myself.
I am large, I contain multitudes.

Basically, Obama is saying "if you find anything outrageously false, it's just a literary contrivance or unintentional". Kind of like a permanent hall pass.

Indiex:

You are hereby served notice that you will not be permitted to vote for Obama in the General Election.

You may instead:

a) Vote for McCain
b) Write in Hillary's name
c) Vote for a 3rd party candidate
d) Write in anyone else's name, or
e) Sit out the election

Under no circumstances, however, are you permitted to vote for Obama. You will be monitored for compliance.

Thanks for your cooperation in this matter.

We will be in great shape indeed if the only thing the opposition can come up with is Obama's fuzzy memory of what magazine he was looking at at age 9. Or maybe what Concentration Camp his relative did, in fact, liberate. Or maybe that his father was a goatherder when it was really is grandfather.

The question I have to ask is WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT FREAKING MAKE?

I think lying about your supposed "experience", lying about your supposed "in the line of fire" experiences, and framing your opponent for your own "wink wink" to a foreign country is a little more unsettling.

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Well said

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Even in Triumph Obamaistas can't help or stop their Clinton Hate Speak. Pretty sad.

After tomorrow Louisville, I will be on the LisB bandwagon and start giving HUGS to all Hillary supporters. The reason we are still posting against what we feel are unfair attacks on Obama is we need to start changing the mindset. Obama will be the nominee after tomorrow. Can you suggest any way we can stop the junk on Obama? We all want the same thing as democrats, we just disagreed about who would lead us there. Once that point of contention is over, I am hoping we will join the others to create a new democratic majority everywhere!

Won't that be a great breath of fresh air? We are so close we can almost touch it.

I am still trying to discover the disconnect between Hillary and Obama supporters.

I would love to hear more perspective from Hillary supporters.

If you're interested, please share your opinions.

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/05/an-honest-question-for-clinton.php

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In addition, one should always capitalize the first letter in the name of a political party. That is, unless one intends the word democratic to mean "advocating or upholding democracy". I imagine that, as a Hillary Clinton supporter, that definition has a certain objectionable quality to it. North-Korean-style single-candidate elections are apparently much more appealing to the Clintonistas.

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