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With Us or Against Us?

Seems like a no-brainer to me.  I throw my hat in with the "against" folks.

In case everyone hasn't already heard, Sen. Clinton--tired of
co-opting John McCain's campaign material, dusted off one of President Bush's
golden oldies during a campaign speech in Indiana last night.  The line
was in reference to her gratuitously pandering "gas-tax holiday" idea.
 Always one to double down on a bad bet, Sen. Clinton stated she would
introduce legislation in Congress, which she framed this way:

I want them [meaning Congress] to tell us, are they with us or against us when it comes to taking on the oil companies?


OK--put aside for the moment that the "them" to which Sen. Clinton refers is a Congress that is controlled by the Democratic Party.

Put aside that the "us" to which she is referring are members of the Democratic Party.

Put aside that the Speaker of the House, a democrat, has said the proposal is going nowhere.

Put aside that no one actually believes Sen. Clinton's proposal is a good idea, which more than likely includes herself.

Putting aside all that, is there really anyone left out there--with the exception of the most dyed-in-the-wool Clinton supporters, that honestly believe this candidate is placing the interests of the country or her party ahead of herself?

Aren't we long past accepting this type of cheap gimmickry from our elected leaders?  If not, this is exatcly the type of vote-buying crap that we deserve.

Comments (34)

The junior Senator from New York clearly believes that she can never go wrong with underestimating the intelligence of the American voter.

Perhaps this belief is justified... but I hope not.

Boy have you nailed it!

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I'm gonna use my gas tax savings to buy me a big ole chaw of sum Grape Bub's Daddy Bubble Gum from down to over there at the penny candy store.

Then next week I think I'mon buy me another can o' them thar Vy-enna Sausages. Awww-haw... munch on that while I sharpen my slingblade. Awwww-haw.

Some folks call it sling blade I call it a kaiser blade.

Meheheheh.

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As I opined in a different thread, this puts Dems in the Senate in the awful position of either supporting a piece of crap (and being called on it later) or voting against it and having Hillary's words used against them in their re-election bids. Given that she needs these people's support more than the voter's at this point, I don't see how this is good strategy.

this puts Dems in the Senate in the awful position of either supporting a piece of crap (and being called on it later) or voting against it and having Hillary's words used against them in their re-election bids.

I don't think they're in an awful position. The legislation is crap and they aren't buying it. They'll do what they need to do. I think as time has passed, a lot of folks in Congress are feeling less and less beholdin' to the Clintons. Hillary's "with us or against us" words will only come back to haunt her.

When she says "with US" she must mean herself and McCain since no one else seems to think this is a good idea.

Has any Democrat besides those in her campaign come out in favor of the gas-tax holiday? I want to know so I can send him/her a letter!

It's Hillary and The Little Guy against every other single being and thing in the universe.

Scary lady.

OK--put aside for the moment that the "them" to which Sen. Clinton refers is a Congress that is controlled by the Democratic Party, of which she is a member.

With us or against us. Nice ultimatum there, Hillary. Guess what? Ultimatums in general make me testy. STUPID ultimatums are even worse.

Could she more clearly illustrate the differences between herself and "we're all in this together" Obama?

Give her time. I am sure she will.

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You're right. We shouldn't be talking about gas taxes. Let's talk about something else. Let's talk about Jeremiah Wright. Didn't Obama say he could no more renounce Wright than he could his own white grandmother who was sometimes afraid of the black men she saw on the street, and who sometimes issued stereotypical statements that made him cringe? Didn't he call her a typical white person? But then six weeks later, didn't he renounce Wright, after first claiming he hadn't heard Wright's comments, and then saying the media was wrong in playing the video loops. But suddenly he was outraged by the very same stuff. And insiders say Wright had been saying all that stuff all throughout those 20 years when Obama was so close to Wright. No wonder polls say that most think Obama only denounced Wright out of political expediency.

Oh, you don't want to talk about Wright? Ok. Guess we can talk about gas taxes.

Who said anything about Wright in this thread but you? Everyone gets it. Clinton supporters think Wright damaged Obama. I agree, now what?

This is about Clinton putting members of her own party in a tight political spot for her own political gain. Her gas tax proposal, even with the windfall tax, costs more money in the short term and long term for middle class Americans. She's pandering, it's political, so be it, Obama's drinking American beer like it's going out of style, not because he loves it, but apparently people like it...it happens and it's basically harmless although the gas tax holiday is one of the dumbest fucking ideas on the planet. But she believes she can spit in our Party members faces and get some political points? That's going too far. And she just made a huuuuuge political mistake if she really thought she could win SDs.

But perhaps she doesn't care anymore. It's been my contention she knows Obama will win in the Fall. So what to do? Perhaps you convince your supporters you are the rightful nominee although you're not. Perhaps you create such a large split in the Party, you can't be shunted to the side anymore. Perhaps you push your party into a corner and blackmail them into accepting you as a VP. Perhaps you don't care about making enemies in Congress because you're not trying to convince SDs to give you the nomination anymore, you know you've lost. You need to convince enough SDs that your supporters will not support the other nominee without your name somewhere on the ticket.

All politicians pander to an extent. That's part of what politics is. I accept that people seeking election will do things they might not do otherwise.

However, when Barack Obama hits the bowling lanes or orders a Bud--it doesn't effect the long-term best interests of the country. When Sen. Clinton panders, such as this gas-tax holiday proposal or--hmmm, say voting for war in Iraq, there are REAL & TRAGIC consequences.

I agree, my point was while the gas tax holiday pandering is bad government and will cost us more money both long term and short term, it's part of the game and no one's life is at stake. I accept pandering, but see it for what it is, just politics and part of the game.

However, this "with us or against us" horseshit will affect far more than just her election hopes...it harms every Democrat down the line. And when we're in a fight to get our guys out of the meatgrinder in Iraq, it might cost lives if the Democrats don't have the troops in Congress to pull it off. It's unacceptable, had she stopped at the pandering, that's one thing, but as usual she went too far.

Pandering is just part of the game for only so long as the voters reward it with votes. The truth is the antidote to pandering. Get the word out that this will only put money in the pockets of big oil and not help us at all. This pander only helps her with the ignorant. Help inform them so that we do not have to pay for their ignorance.

To the man whose only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

Meheheheh.

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Otto, Tell that story again about how you were listening to Randi Rhodes on Air America; YESTERDAY, even though she is no longer with them. Get back on your meds.


So tell us Otto, what does a Racist Scumbag, Aryan Nation Troll, such as yourself usually listen too. Is it your vast collection of Hitler's hate speeches!

Jeremiah Wright keeps gas prices high.

Jeremiah Wright's surge isn't leading to a conclusion in Iraq.

Jeremiah Wright is causing global warming.

Jeremiah Wright is reponcible for bad mortgages.

Jeremiah Wright has dammaged the US Constitution.

Jeremiah Wright let Russia slip back towards totalitarianism.

Jeremiah Wright is the most deadly curse in America today.

Jeremiah Wright is Otto F's inflatable love doll.

True:

Jeremiah Wright is the most deadly curse in America today. Rev. Wright is the Great Satan just like Keith Olbermann, Arianna Huffington and MSNBC.

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...does it surprise anyone that Billary is once again dividing the country or the democratic party as the case may be. Divide and conquer -- haven't we witnessed that ego-centric solution as the impetus of the Billary strategy. Expect more of that on a world wide release if, heaven forbid, she gets a toe in the White House.

Divide and conquer. This is the Clinton policy.

Yeah . . . but what is your policy with regards to Jeremiah Wright?

Jeremiah Wright Policy????

WTF would that be? Should we repeal the 1st Amendment? Outlaw egocentrics? How about this, let's get the FCC to establish the Jeremiah Wright News Channel with public funding?

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More divisive politics. Sigh. Am I aiding terrorism if I dont agree with obliterating Iran talk too?

According to Hillary you are ading terroism if you fail to vote for her.

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TPM reader GC via Josh...Please state Hillary's position on the Gas Tax Holiday correctly. While McCain's plan is a giveaway to big oil, Hillary's plan imposes a "windfall profit" tax on oil companies to make up for the lost tax revenue. So Hillary's plan breaks even. Instead of customers paying the tax, the oil companies pay the tax. The price of gas will stay the same.
But the bigger story is what a superior job Hillary did in neutralizing McCain's announcement. Everyone knows this is just politics; this idea will never become law. So examine it on a political basis.

Imagine this issue came up in the general election and Obama is the Dem candidate. McCain and the Media echo chamber start asking the question, "Is McCain actually the campion of the little guy? Is Obama really an elitist who doesn't understand the pain of poor folks?" Then Obama spends many news cycles "explaining" why it's better to not cut the price of gas, it wouldn't make much difference in the price anyway, this is just a gimmick,... You know the rule: If you are explaining, you are losing!

Clinton is focused on becoming the next president. Obama is overly concerned about being correct. Remember, this will NEVER become law. It is a political stunt by McCain and Hillary had the best counter punch.

GC captured the essense of it.

Unfortunately, the windfall tax that Clinton wants to use to offset the loss of income from the gas tax isn't a sure thing--it has to be voted through Congress. Also, its proceeds could go to more important things than offsetting the loss of income from the gas tax.

"Clinton is focused on becoming the next president. Obama is overly concerned about being correct."

That sums up this campaign perfectly, even pro-Clinton people see this (although, strangely, they think it's a good thing for her). If we don't stop Clinton, we deserve exactly what we get. Shitty government, political pandering, and an extreme difficulty in trying to figure out if your government is lying to you.

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Does anyone else think that while this might appeal to the people who aren't paying much attention (her base) it will be very aggravating to superdelegates who don't like ultimatums?

And their vote is the one that matters here.


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As a matter of permanent public policy, reducing the gas tax is a bad idea, but so is the over loose monetary policy and the fiscal stimulus package. In a period of economic downturn, however, acting quickly to stimulate the economy and lowering burdens by giving people a 30 cents a gallon break in gas prices is not a bad idea.

I know many economists are against the gas tax decrease, but I don't see how it's such a big windfall if you have an excess profits tax on big oil to pay for it. Economists don't like the excess profits tax either; many blame Carter's excess profits tax for the economic problems of the late 70s. Reagan did away with it and the oil boom of the early 80s began.

Working class people are hit the hardest by the high pric of gas. If the economy needs a fiscal stimulus, a gas tax holiday makes sense.

Indiex also makes an excellent point about demarketing the rethugs key ideas. Like in every election, the rethugs are going to call our candidate a "Tax and spender." Using the gas tax idea is simple and straight forward enough to reach directly to the vast majority of voters who don't spend their time watching the political news and writing long comments on blogs that only a handful of people will read.

Bush and the rethugs did it very cleverly the last two elections. Against Gore they turned the environmental debate into juxtaposing positions on drilling in Alaska. Most of us have never been to Alaska and will never go. If we had framed the debate over acid rain and the fact that pollution in the Great Smokey Mountains had reduced visibility by 80-90% over the last 20 years, we would have found more traction. Similarly, after 4 years of anti-scientific censureship and fossil-fuel-first-foremost-only energy policy, Bush came out for doing something (nothing useful, concrete or specific of course) about global warning in election cycle speeches and debates, thereby defusing our advantage among the unlearned, detached and apathetic masses.

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every expert has come out and said that if you hit the oil companies with a windfall tax they will push that cost on to the consumer and therefore the middle class will see no relief at the pump at all. also congress will never pass a windfall tax on oil companies nor will the president approve it so this is just a political ploy and you can fall for it but i bet the so called savings that we don't see a difference in pump prices this summer

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...so this is just a political ploy...

Yeah. It is. No question about it. Does it surprise you that politicians engage in political ploys?

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So your point is we should nominate Bush in a Pantsuit for more of the same. I would rather not, thank you very much.

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