Reader Posts

« previous | TPM CAFÉ READER POSTS HOME | next »

Toilet bowl effect and Hillary's base

In 1914, two years before he was appointed to the Supreme Court, a collection of articles by the esteemed Louis D. Brandeis was published under the title, “Other People’s Money — And How the Bankers Use It.” It was a sensation.
   In 1991, after a successful run on Broadway, “Other People’s Money,” a play by Jerry Sterner, became a movie featuring Danny DeVito as a ruthless liquidator of moribund businesses.
   In a monologue that has since acquired almost a cult following, DeVito’s character explains to the stockholders why it would be foolhardy to try to keep their company in business when new technology was going to make it obsolete.

  This company is dead. I didn't kill it. Don't blame me. It was dead when I got here. It's too late for prayers. For even if the prayers were answered and a miracle occurred, and the yen did this and the dollar did that, and the infrastructure did the other thing, we would still be dead. You know why? Fiber optics. New technologies. Obsolescence. We're dead, all right. We're just not broke. And do you know the surest way to go broke?
  Keep getting an increasing share of a shrinking market.
  Down the tubes. Slow but sure. You know, at one time there must have been dozens of companies making buggy whips. And I'll bet the last company around was the one that made the best goddam buggy whip you ever saw. Now, how would you have liked to have been a stockholder in that company?
  You invested in a business, and this business is dead. Let's have the intelligence, let's have the decency to sign the death certificate, collect the insurance, and invest in something with a future.
  A couple of weeks back, I was complaining to a friend about a comment I’d heard on NPR to the effect that Hillary Clinton had, in the recent Pennsylvania primary, won “the core constituency of the Democratic Party” by taking more of the white, non-college-educated, working class vote than had Obama. I just didn’t see it.
  Because I don’t think you can define the “core constituency” of the Democratic Party that way any longer, any more than you can claim the Republican Party base is still mostly made up of rich people.
  Whoever Hillary Clinton won in Pennsylvania, the total vote for her was less than half what the most conservative estimates had projected, suggesting that the “white, working class, non-college-educated” voter either is not a certain voter for Hillary or that the proportion of such voters has shrunk — or perhaps both.
  “It’s called the toilet bowl effect,” said my friend, going on to illustrate: When a toilet is flushed, a huge volume of water descends into the bowl and then whirls in an ever-shrinking vortex until it’s gone.
  Hillary Clinton appears to be capturing an increasing share of a declining constituency, and Democrats would be foolish to take seriously her effort to persuade us that because she can win the “Archie Bunker” vote she must be given the nomination.
  Pish and tosh, I say.
  A similarly deluded member of the punditocracy reminded us last week that ever since the 1960s (and its civil rights legislation) the only Democrats to win the presidency were from Southern states and he suggested that may still be true.
  I’ve got news for him:  The South has gone north, so to speak.
  I was born and raised to the age of 12 in the South; I have lived in New York, Ohio, and California since then, and now that I am back, I am here to tell you: This is not your father’s Old South.
  My experience qualifies me to speak with some authority about Yankee directness and California subtlety; about brazenly liberal folks in San Francisco but not so in some of its suburbs; about racism in New York, in Ohio and in California while better relations now exist between black and white folks in Texas.
  And I can state unequivocally that one of the best things about the South, what I think of as the “dear hearts and gentle people factor” hasn’t gone north; it’s still very much here, thank you.
  So, just as the Democratic Party can take heart that the “white, less-college-educated, working class” voter has, in the last 50 years, become less white and more educated; that the “working class” of decades ago have risen in skills and expectations; they will be well advised not to focus a disproportionate share of their money and energies trying to capture an increasing share of what has become a shrinking market.


Comments (74)

This is a brilliantly well stated exposition of an excellent point. My only regret is that I can only click "recommend" once. I tip my hat to you, Ms Guyol.

SO IN OTHER WORDS

Those goobers in pickup trucks never really mattered? Then let's send 'em back to Ireland.


Obama/iPod '08

A great analysis, and one I think is exactly right. This whole obsession with the "Reagan democrats", as this group of voters has for more than twenty years been mischaracterized, is an anachronism developed by the DLC in the 1980s.

The idea may have made sense in the '80s, but it ignores the great changes in the composition of the electorate in the ensuing years. And this year it ignores the fact that Obama and his camp have been realigning the democratic coalition, just as Reagan realigned the republican coalition in 1980, using a message of hope, no less.

How exactly are these folks democrats in any sense of the word? The group has, after all, voted for Reagan, Bush I, and Bush II twice. Only voting in some numbers for Bill Clinton by virtue of his bona fide bubba credentials.

A similarly deluded member of the punditocracy reminded us last week that ever since the 1960s (and its civil rights legislation) the only Democrats to win the presidency were from Southern states and he suggested that may still be true.

The foregoing brings to mind this line from a Joe Klein piece "....the media — like pollsters and political consultants — tend to look in the rearview mirror and pretend to see the future."

Klein piece

ARGH!

YE POST EXPLAINS WHY THE SEAS ARE BLUE!

ME BEEN NAVIGATING IN A TOILET BOWL! NO WONDER WHY THE STARS AREN'T ALIGNED!

AND THAT AIN'T A PIECE OF DRIFTWOOD!

UP THE MAST WITH YE!

SET SALE FOR CONSUMERISM!

ACQUIRE! MERGE! MARAUD! DILUTE! DILUTE!

ARGH!

Good points in an interesting post. Thanks.

The notion that working-class, non-college-educated whites is the core constituency of today's Democratic Party--and winning it by isolating it and pitting it against other groups--is an unbelievably dumb and outdated way of looking at the party.

Obsma's strategy uses big thinking--building a large coalition of voters and majority mandate--to advance a progressive agenda.

Now's the right time to do it. The Demcratic Party has the opportunity to take a bold risk on a new leader and a new coalition of voters (the odds have never been better) and reap huge rewards.

"Take a bold risk" indeed. But the potential rewards are astounding. Imagine the ascendancy of an entire generation of inspired, progressive Democrats.

That's game-changing power.

Meh-eh-eh-eh-eh.

8-)

And to the point:

"This campaign is dead. I didn't kill it. Don't blame me. It was dead on Super Tuesday. It's too late for prayers. For even if the prayers were answered and a miracle occurred, and the DNC did this and Michigan did that, and Florida did the other thing, we would still be dead. You know why? Netroots. New technologies. Obsolescence. We're dead, all right. And we're just broke. And do you know why we went broke?
Keep getting an increasing share of a shrinking constituency.
Down the tubes. Slow but sure. You know, at one time there must have been dozens of fundraising bundlers. And I'll bet the last bundler who could squeeze a dime out of a donor who wasn’t tapped out was the one that raised the most money overall. Now, how would you have liked to have been a candidate who relied on that last bundler? Like I did?
You donated to this campaign, and this campaign is dead. Let's have the intelligence, let's have the decency to sign the death certificate and donate to something with a future."

nathalie, you are a treasure!

Thanks for this wonderful post! Beautifully written. So lucid. Well backed up. And your toilet metaphor! Outstanding!!!

♪♪♪

Good to see you back and poking around, TheraP!

clearthinker, I just posted a couple of things on your rec post. I'd appreciate it you'd read and comment or better yet, "think." The problems we face are larger than black vs white. It's almost surreal!

Thanks for your kind words. I post when I feel I have something to contribute. When it's just a mud wrestle, I avoid it.

I have a few postings for you over there... as well on the issues of black-or-white. I don't want to hijack this thread, so I'll keep an eye out over there.

I always appreciate your psychological analysis!


avatar

Insulting Hillary supporters is not a way to get them to vote for Obama. That anyone has to actually spell this out for you says volumes about your post.

avatar

Obama will just have to win without you.

How is it an insult? The metaphor is about dwindling resources, i.e. the number of pledged delegates is dwindling and having a majority of the remaining delegates doesn't change anything. It's about the changing nature of the Democratic Party. Chuck Todd had it right.

Those who live in glass houses, friend...

That was supposed to be in response to Otto F

Well done!

avatar

Stop being a grouch Otto.

Nice post but I think you are making what is quite complicated seem simple. As with all Politicians you craft your message to where you are currently campaigning. Admittedly, Hillary has taken a decided turn towards Blue Collar Blues workers since coming North for Ohio/PA/IN. But if you take a look at elections in these states over the past 20 years it is precisely that voter that has swung side to side and decided elections. Take Ohio. John Glenn succeeded the now deceased Howard Metzenbaum on the back of that constituency. And, John Glenn, lost to Mike Dewine off that same group in 1994. So in the Steel belt states that voter is still very very important. Ask Rick Santorum.

When she was in the south, however, she didn't use this strategy at all. She understood the new realities of the south. Specifically Texas where the largest minority now is Hispanic rather than African American and that minority will shape elections for years and years to come. She recognizes this as well as any National Candidate obviously outside of Bill Richardson himself.

So, I agree we as Democrats must look at reality rather than living in the past. I disagree with your statements that Hillary doesn't understand this. She does and her campaign has showed time and again it knows it.

I would argue that this message tailoring has been one of her great flaws as a politician. Leaving aside the fact that it's election pandering, which is not admirable in itself, it wasn't even politically effective. Clinton's message changed from moment to moment until it was all but dissolved. She's experienced, she's for change, she's a hard worker, she's a fighter, she's a policy wonk, she's a regular guy. Some of these positions aren't even compatible. How does the policy wonk blow off the economists? How can the woman with 35 years of experience be a reformer?

If she did something right, politically, in the past month it was to find a message and stick to it.

And besides that, you make it so clear that "it's all about her!" She's this; she's that. She's the other! You can find her in the bar, on the 3 am shift, out hunting in the woods. She throws shots! Heck, maybe she even makes moonshine! (She learned it from her granpa.) She's come a long way from baking cookies!

It really is astounding, isn't it?

In 2004 Bush called Rove "the architect" for using his patented microtargeting to slice and dice and reward the parts of the electorate they need to get to 51% in the polls, and screw the rest of us.

In 2008 Clinton figures she can do the same thing with her own architect Penn (Mr. Microtrends) and forgets the vision thing that makes it all fit together.

It really says all you need to know that the sign held up behind every Obama victory speech has been the same from Day One.

Gengis: SATURDAY NIGHT FEVER CALLED

They want their costume back.


Obama/Obama '08

RenStimpy: YOU ALREADY USED THAT JOKE

Not any funnier. But maybe third time's a charm.

Eat/Me '08

So that wasn't barry out bowling in Harrisburg?

The white, working-class, not college-educated voter is not Bubba. If you want to write off Bubba, that's fine with me. I have never though people should be rewarded for racism, homophobia and downright meanness.

But the white, working class non-colleged-educated voter of the industrial heartland and the north/northeast is not an irrational voter like Bubba. Larry Bartels explains quite clearly that this voter is swayed by economic concerns more than anything and that in fact, contrary to stereotype, it is the better-educated, high-income middle class that is more swayed by social wedges.

This, incidentally, was true during the Vietnam War. Working collar opposition to the war was high and the educated elits polled much stronger in support of the war. And why not? it was the working class whose children were being sent to die. It was only the childish and self-indulgent tactics of the anti-war left who alienated the working class who would have been their ally in opposing the war.

I see this happening again with the condescension and contempt oozing from so many of you for working class voters. Nathalie may want to write of the working class white voter -- but shame on you all if you do.

Nice post Oregon.

I agree to a considerable extent with what you say, if you stipulate that you're talking about today's working class.

The numbers I've seen show a real difference in voting patters between younger and middle-aged white working class voters and their older, mostly retired, counterparts. Bubba was a lot more common among 80's Reagan Democrats than for today's working people.

Which further reinforces the fact that it's a declining constituency.

avatar

Since I lived through the activism against the Vietnam War, I found your conclusion that the working class was against the war interesting. It runs completely counter to my experience.

The working class--including those drafted who served in Vietnam--was strongly for the war. The war ended when this group turned against the war.

The anti-Vietnam rabble-rousers were certainly cenetered on college and university campuses--not the normal hang-out for the working class.

Obama's rise to power is simply supported by the same middle class, college-educated types who form at the bleeding edge of anything--including a generational change of power within the Democratic Party.

Why should we write off anyone? That's the problem. It's a bad strategy to put all eggs in one demographic basket, or, worse, to pit demographic groups against each other. That's just stupid.

avatar

Have any of you actually canvassed around election day? Obama's campaign sent me to the Carpenter's Hall in Hammond on Monday and then the SEIU office in Schererville IN. We had plenty of white working class folks working election day, along with black working class, Hispanic and people up and down the educational spectrum. Anybody who thinks working class voters of any color who are losing their jobs in droves in the construction and manufacturing industries are going to vote for a son of a son an admiral who's had a government provided social safety net under his butt his whole life isn't thinking any more clearly than John McCain himself.

Dems had a choice of candidates in the primaries, when it's narrowed to one Dem and one Repub it's going to be a blowout in our favor. There's a huge majority of people in this country who are fed the fuck up with Republican policies and their incredible corruption.


I think what Hillary Clinton understood, not soon enough, but relatively early on, is that she had lost the "elite" vote (which she now seems to want to kick even further away), and I believe this was a shock since her husband held up well with the well informed, educated Democratic voters and I don't imagine she expected them to jump ship to Obama in the numbers that a they have. Truth be told, they were already jumping ship by the time the Clinton figured out he is a credible candidate.

But then she lost the African American vote, possibly even before South Carolina. So where else could she go? I mean, clearly she's a politician of the first order, but there has been a back to the wallness about her campaign for a very long time now, and it kind of negates the validity of the point you seem to want to make about her "choices."

anna am, this is a sharp comment. I haven't heard Clinton's evolution as a presidential candidate described quite this way before, and it feels right to me. It goes a long way to explain Clinton's rejection of economists and embrace of the so-called "gas tax holiday", which in light of your comment, seems like a final, decisive split with educated voters, just as her increasingly direct appeals to "white" voters has severed any remaining ties to the black electorate.

She's from Illinois. She's from Pennsylvania. She's from Arkansas. She's from NY! She's from Wellesley. She's from Yale. She's .... a shape-shifter!

It's true. The number of states that she claims to be from is rather remarkable. (Of course, Obama laid claim to Kansas.)

Illinois, Kansas, Hawaii... they've both done it.

Yet no one has claimed Canada

Yes. I think this is right. If you think back 6 months, we had no frickin idea that Hillary Clinton, of all people, would turn out to be the hard-drinkin', straight-shootin' tribune of the white working class. We would have laughed if anyone had said that. Hillary was running a straight-out Dem establishment campaign.

The "white working class" stuff is a late-breaking stratagem born of necessity, because Obama has made inroads in all the other demographics.

Except for old people. But no one wants to be the hard-drinkin'
tribune of the over-65 set.

Excellent point about choices. But then, she could have tried to win back those "lost constituencies" instead of alienating them further. So, she never had a plan B and then went on to hastilit formed plan C, plan D... each more disastrous than the previous one.

avatar

Excellent analysis!!

Another point I would make......

The 'Old South' is becoming less and less like the Old South for a very good reason.....the relocation boom from Northeast to SOuthwest......

And the very states that were once solid RED but are now trending PURPLE or even leaning BLUE are the very states where the influx of new residents from the North and East have chosen in the highest numbers.

avatar

Oregon Activist,

You are absolutely right that no one should "write off the working class white voter." In fact, no group should be written off. I think the problem for politicians and their approaches to campaigning has been consistently wrong in that it identifies groups and assigns artificial values to them. As a result you get this kind of rhetoric. While I understand the basic premise of identifying your best customer, I wonder how much more successful political coalition building could be if every group was regarded equally as important as the next? Maybe I'm just naive.

I agree. I don't think the intent of the post is to "write off Bubba" -- though I admit the rhetoric is a little over the top, and it could be read that way. But I do think it's fair to resist arguments that imply that the white working-class demog. is more "central" or "crucial" than all the others. I also think it's fair to point out that we're living in an increasingly diverse nation.

Actually, if in order to keep Bubba we must adopt anti-choice, anti-gay, anti-Affirmative Action, pander to the ignorance of the anti-science yahoos and bring back religion in the schools, then hell yes, we write off Bubba.

Thanks to the What's the Matter with Kansas and a host of other let's pander to our poorer natures proponents there's growing support for ceding our social justice values to cull support from Bubbas. Certainly that is in play with the suggestions of Hagel, Nunn and WEbb as VEEP candidates - those are candidates whose values are antithetical to Obama's and to Clinton's social values, but they get proposed to get the vote of the folks whose worldview is so parochial they won't vote for someone outside the South.

If they are more loyal to the South than to the whole of America, write them off.

My argument is that is wrong, wrong, wrong to mix up white working class folks from outside the South with the theocrats from the South - they are nothing alike.

Well, I don't know about that, honestly. There's a certain amount of demonization of the South among liberals.

I'll admit that there are differences between Catholic suburban voters in PA and Baptist rural voters in TN. But it's not as huge as all that. I'm hearing some echoes of the sort of thinking that divides the country geographically into "red" and "blue." But surely, this campaign has demonstrated how much more complex and curvy the divisions actually are.

It's a lot more complex than that. Stereotypes are rarely on the money, and most of the ones you're using are rarely on the money. It's a more complex nation than Bubbas, theocrats and whoever else you don't being easily seen as enemies based on preconcieved notions about their values or attitudes.

I have several friends who fall into the non-college educated white working class. I think the best way to reach these people is to reduce the economic argument to several basic points. When the Republicans argue that letting the Bush tax cuts expire would cost everyone an average of $1000, point out explicitly that the 99 people making under $50K per year wouldn't pay anymore while the 100th guy making $10 million would pay $100,000. Bring back Bush 41's charge of Voodoo economics. Point out repeatedly that of our $9.5 trillion national debt, more than $7 trillion was rung up under three presidents: Reagan, Bush, and Bush. Trickle down has been a disaster for the workin' Joes. At the same time, the income divide between the wealthiest and the poorest is the greatest since the Great Depression.

Hammer these points home in commercials and all discussions. These aren't attack ads, but issue ads.

My friends don't pay much attention to political details. They are "gut" voters. The votes can be gotten, but Obama needs to reach their gut instincts.

Okay, I'll bite. Since ordinary, "Joe Six-Pack" folks aren't the core constituency of the Democratic Party, just who is? You seem to have missed out that part. Well, let's see: as of July 2005, the population was 70% white, 13% black, 14% hispanic and the rest accounted for a piddling 3%. So, racially, if you're discounting the significance of whites, you are claiming that the "core constituency" of the party is comprised of about 27% to 30% of the population. Yeah, you'll win a lot of elections with that lot.

Okay, maybe the divider is income. We've just grown too important to bother with the lower economic classes. According to these numbers from wikipedia, roughly 45% of the population earn over $50,000 a year, meaning 55% are under that number. I reckon that is where the "toilet-bowl" constituency lives. But wait, a disproportionate number of blacks and hispanics live in that unimportant, non-core constituency. So, we don't care about people making under $50K but that means we don't care about blacks and hispanics, either, unless they fall above the making 50K-line. I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader to determine what percentage of the minority vote we now care about.

Oh wait, maybe it's education. Hmm, 25% of young adults have postsecondary degrees. Of the 75% without a bachelor's or equivalent degree, around 20% of the young adults had "some" postsecondary coursework. The remaining 55% of young adults had high diploma or less. Okay, so maybe we'll only concerned about the two groups that have postsecondary education -- that would make up 45% of the young adult population. That kind of makes sense in a perverse way, since Obama and his campaign have shown zero interest in the "over 30" crowd.

In summary, after making the bald claim that "the butcher, the baker and the candlestick maker" are no longer the "core constituency" of the Democratic Party, the article makes no advances, such as identifying which groups have taken the place of working Americans as "really significant" to the party.

I find the commentary not only elitist (after all, you aren't blogging on TPM if you aren't already in the social and economic elite class), but dangerously shortsighted. You can't win an election of any significance without "Joe six-pack" and his candlemaking friends. Ain't ... gonna ... happen. Worse, the article makes the fundamental political blunder of assuming that somehow the needs of that "noncore constituency" are so far divergent from your own needs as an elite member of the "core constituency" that they can just be ignored.

If the only "core constituency" of the Democratic Party is comprised of bloggers and friends, plus the handful of Americans deemed worthwhile by that group, John McCain will win a 50-state victory.

I don't actually see that happening. I suspect your algorithm has a serious bug.

Thanks.

mp

Or maybe there is no "core."

Just a coalition.

From which, at least by implication, the author is excluding "white, less-educated" voters.

Thanks.

mp

Hmmm. I didn't read it that way.

Building a monolithic "core constituency" composed of any demographic group hasn't been the goal of the Democratic Party. Democrats have tried to piece together a coalition of working class, liberal educated "elite," and African American voters for a long time.

Indeed, we should continue to court the traditional blue-collar non-college-educated voter, but we should try to scoop up more than just the people who have been inclined to vote for Democrats in the past. Democrats need to find a way to build an increasingly diverse coalition of voters.

And it's just wrong, wrong, wrong to pit one demographic group against another. I think there's a perception among pundits and pols that Clinton is creating or deepening a racial divide between Democratic constituencies. I'm not claiming that this is intentional on Clinton's part; but in touting her popularity with working-class whites by emphasizing Obama's "weakness" with them, she contributes to a deepening racial rift in our potential Democratic coalition. If she is currently running for Veep (by creating a situation that might require putting her on the ticket to retain racial constituencies in the Democratic coalition), she is running a risky strategy. It's worrisome to me.

Laura, I'd had the same thought.

Why would she make the statement?

1) Pander to said "working class white voters" in an all-out attempt to win the nomination now that there are no upcoming states left with large AA populations?
2) Influence super-dels.
3) Wedge until the VP slot must be hers in order to achieve a November victory.
4) All of the above.

My money is on #3, with maybe a little bit of #2.

Well, if we're going to disenfranchise the well educated as well as the African Americans at least we could bar ALL candidates with Ivy League degrees from the Presidency.

But I think you're looking in that rear view mirror. When MN picked up 13 new Democratic seats in the 2004 election, 12 were from upscale suburban and Mayo Clinic/IBM Republican Rochester.

Maybe we could call these SAT moms and dads. They want their children to have a superior education, superior health care, a pristine environment and the best future to be had on earth. These Americans know that the US is falling behind in many measures of quality of life and that's the terror they feel for their children's future. They don't want to hide their heads in the sand. They want a change of course. We should be going after these voters.

It might be that, as I am not the first to point out, the needs of the elite align with the needs of the many. For example, many of these "SAT moms" don't seem to have any clue that the lack of affordable healthcare for the lower classes has any relation to the high cost of their own healthcare.

The only candidate in the race who has made this connection is Clinton. It doesn't look like she will be the nominee. So, assuming a Democratic win in the Fall, no significant progress will be made on the healthcare front.

That is a paradigm for the "new Democratic Party" being posited here. A lot of talk, very little walk.

Thanks.

mp

It might be that, as I am not the first to point out, the needs of the elite align with the needs of the many. For example, many of these "SAT moms" don't seem to have any clue that the lack of affordable healthcare for the lower classes has any relation to the high cost of their own healthcare.

I don't understand how you have come to this conclusion. Both Clinton and Obama have spoken at length about how our current, highly-inefficient-yet-ridiculously-expensive system of providing so-called healthcare to the poor helps contribute to high costs for everyone.

Also, you claim, as if it's a forgone conclusion, that no significant progress on healthcare will be made if Clinton is not the nominee. I don't understand your basis for that, either.

What are your concerns?

Michael - I think you make an interesting point. But you've taken the her 'business is dead' analogy too far - no analogy holds up perfectly when taken to the extreme. Nathalie's point wasn't that we need a new core demographic to replace the old one, nor was she suggesting that the demographic of 'Joe-six-pack' (as you called it) is going extinct like the buggy whip. Again, you can only take an analogy so far.

The point was that the core constituency that had been crucial to the Democrat's success is both shrinking as a proportion of the vote, but also becoming a much harder to target group because all the demographics are blending into each other a bit. To ONLY target a shrinking share of the market doesn't make sense.

The conclusion I draw is the same that Alex39 posted above: maybe there is no core constituency anymore. Maybe 'identity politics' is on the wane. At a minimum, forming a winning coalition of multiple demographics is much more powerful than forming a winning coalition from only one. But it may be more about forming a winning coalition of principals and ideas that a majority of voters are aligned with - outside of race, religion, gender, etc.

Going back to the free-market analogy, it's time to diversify. Sure, we can keep the buggy whip, but with this booming demand for automobiles we might wanna invest in production-line technologies, or steel, rubber, and if this automobile thing really takes off, maybe petroleum. Of course, we could go a completely different direction: there's this growing company called International Business Machines (IBM) that makes typewriters...

"winning coalition of principals and ideas"

Yes, I meant that, and I don't want it to pass unnoticed as though it were some cute play on words. Think about the implications. I'm not taking about a single set of agenda items, like a party platform. I'm talking about vision, the principals we stand on, the ideals upon which we draw inspiration for our ideas. Think about it.

Amen to that.

I think the main point is that if we keep losing by trying to court our "core" Constituency then why do we keep trying to court them?

That what I see Obamas campaign as, a new constituency, and if you look at the numbers he has arguably crated a constituency as large as the old core.

Now if we can keep a large part of the old core (Which he really dose seem to be doing) and add it into the new core then we win.

avatar

I'd like to add here -- no irony intended -- that the chance for affordable Healthcare for most Americans went down the toilet rather spectacularly (along with Democratic Party control of the House and Senate) quite a number of years ago under the inept "leadership" of a former president's unelected wife who now wishes to pose as the best hope for achieving affordable Healthcare for all Americans. Again, I intend no heavy-handed irony here. So stop with your hysterical laughing, fellow Crimestoppers! 

Yes, Senator You-Know-Her (currently from New York) has managed over the past sixteen years to memorize large numbers of factoid details about "Healthcare" while continuing to demonstrate no conceivable political or organizational skills for building the broad-based movement coalition necessary to achieve any real progress in this area. Quite to the contrary, You-Know-Her's slicing and dicing of easy-money "big states" and micro-marketing consumer demographics reveals her complete cluelessness as to how anything worthwhile gets done as opposed to merely sold.

As well: from what I've seen of Senator You-Know-Her over the past seven years, she has appeared far more obsessed with creating a fanboy-fascist public relations image as an "all tough and stuff" Xena-Warrior out to kick Saddam Hussein's irrelevant ass while banning burning flags and popular children's video games -- most of which prominently feature Xena-Warrior-like action violence of the sort You-Know-Her seeks to publicly personify. It escapes me exactly where in all this puerile posturing You-Know-Her ever sought out committee assignments and leadership positions in the Senate that might aid her and us in trying to achieve affordable Healthcare for all Americans. Again, no heavy-handed irony intended. I just do not believe You-Know-Her -- on many levels and about many subjects.

With the above observations in mind, I long ago concluded that Senator You-Know-Her had no real interest in Healthcare for all Americans. It seemed to me that "Healthcare" simply served as the only available vehicle for her own political ambitions -- while she languished as a discredited and humiliated "first lady" -- and that once elected to her first-ever political office, she immediately set out raising obscene amounts of money for her expected Xena-Warrior "commander-in-pantsuits" presidency-to-come. Whatever happened to all that supposed "passion" for Healthcare for all Americans? How does a cheap constitutional-amendment stunt and a backbench seat on the Senate Armed Services Committe enter into the big Healthcare picture here?

Bottom line, though, for a Vietnam Veteran working-stiff (with several college degrees) like myself: I would not and will not ever vote for anyone stupid enough to let a dyslexic dwarf chimpanzee like Deputy Dubya Bush make a monkey out of them over a venal, stud-hamster vendetta against the tinpot nobody Saddam Hussein (or the Iranian people) -- to the ruination of several nations, our own included. Bad decision, that. So bad that the word "bad" doesn't come anywhere near capturing its truly awful meaning. Calculating credulity on such a cosmic scale deserves punishment, not another golden-parachute bonus and/or fuck-up-and-move-up Peter Principle promotion to ever greater levels of incompetence.

I never knew much about Senator Obama before last year and didn't initially pay him much notice. His early and public stand against Deputy Dubya's (and You-Know-Her's) galactic stupidity in Iraq gained him my first serious consideration. Knocking You-Know-Her into third place in Iowa at the nation's first casting of ballots gained him more of my attention. Organizing and campaigning effectively in all 50 states, no matter how small, led me to suspect him of real ability and leadership. Super Tuesday and the following month of uncontestd February wins closed the deal.

In the two desultory months since then, You-Know-Her's desperate, guttersnipe mudslinging has only deepened my negative convictions about her while raising no doubts whatsoever about him. Senator Obama has won his victory with this voter the old fashioned way: he has earned it. I think he'll deliver on some form of reasonable Healthcare for most Americans. I think he'll end two monumentally misguided military quagmires. We the people he has mobilized and organized will make him do those things. If he accomplishes no more than those two important objectives: Peace and Healthcare for most Americans, then he will have done more for America than most presidents ever do. Anything else will only amount to frosting on the cake, so to speak.

Well written, Mr. Murray!

"done" - not "sold"

You make a good case!

♪♪♪

avatar

"I'd like to add here -- no irony intended -- that the chance for affordable Healthcare for most Americans went down the toilet rather spectacularly (along with Democratic Party control of the House and Senate) quite a number of years ago under the inept "leadership" of a former president's unelected wife who now wishes to pose as the best hope for achieving affordable Healthcare for all Americans."

Long-winded, and immature, and weak, and ultimately a cop-out. Senator Obama cannot run on the notion that we can blame Hillary Clinton circa 1993 if we don't get universal healthcare. Mr. Murry, are you saying that Senator Obama is blowing smoke when he promises universal healthcare? Or are you saying that you, with all those college degrees you tell us about, know something that Senator Obama doesn't. I didn't think so for either question.

Move on Mr. Murry. Election Central beckons; I hear lots of folks there are gonna be bashing the Clintons right on straight through November, and you seem ripe to play in the sandbox with them. You apparently already have your shovel.

P.S. This was an excellent post. Thank you Ms. Guyol. I would say this about demographics. As far as I can tell, a Democrat doesn't win in November without overwhelming African American support and substantial support from working class whites. No simple task, but things are what they are. Any Democrat who thinks he or she can win without both constituent blocs is just wrong in my opinion.

hey dumbass. Think you're going to elect Obama without all of "you know her name"'s supporters? Keep going. Things are as we thought they were in obamatown.

Then, as usual, you see only what you expect to see and are thus truly blind.

avatar

eh, fair enough, I say ship em off to Mexico in return for hard working Hispanic immigrants.

well, a few more well considered thoughts on affirmative action. Certainly, I would not compare African-Americans to monkeys. Let's take for example the bar exam. THERE IS NO WAY A MONKEY COULD PASS THE BAR EXAM. End of discussion. Now let's look at the bar passage rate for Howard University's law school. It has averaged around 50% for years, some years dipping below 50%. Compare that to a third-tier state school like U of Idaho, where the bar passage rate is about 85%. Clearly, there is a pattern here. Let's examine the numbers:

Monkeys: 0%
AA elite: 50%
Potato farmers: 85%

Now there is no way for monkeys to improve their bar passage rate. However, for AAs, it's not genetis, IT'S INCENTIVES. Affirmative action and its accompaniaments are a system of perverse incentives actually. There is no incentive to excel or to perform well on tests that test problem-solving ability. There is every incentive to wear a FUBU sweatshirt and say dumb ignorant shit, pretending that it's cutting edge cultural theory, and to engage in empty pathetic exercises like exchanging Kwanza cards.

Solution: easy, just let AAs compete on an open playing field, like everyone else. I'm betting they could handle it.

avatar
I was born and raised to the age of 12 in the South

Which means you are a Southerner. Doesn't matter where else you've lived, you're always welcome back home.

I'm a Yankee who moved to the South for a few years ('93-'96), and I can't tell you the amount of hazing I endured on a daily basis. I eventually learned it was because of my accent, which is distinctly un-Southern and therefore "not from" there. An outsider, someone not to be trusted. Plus, I'm blunt, which Southerners hate.

I seriously doubt the South I experienced has changed much in the last 12 years. As you yourself acknowledge, the “dear hearts and gentle people factor” hasn’t gone north; it’s still very much here, thank you. You believe that phrasing encapsulates one of the "best" qualities of the South. To my trained ear, I hear the subtle undertones of Southern pride and contempt and separatism. Other phrases like "Whoever Hillary Clinton won in Pennsylvania" and "toilet bowl effect" and especially your reference to the Yankee icon "Archie Bunker" tell me I'm right.

In other words, you're just as elitist as Obama's white Yankee demographic.

No, the Democratic Party should not depend on the South to help elect a black man for president. Chances are far better that those uneducated white Pennsylvanians will vote for him.

I don't know, gasket, sometimes we hear what we want to hear...

I'm a southerner and have many friends from all over the country who have spent many years, on and off, in the Southeast. Never heard any complaints like this from them. But I will say, there are some rough characters down here and those who still see a Northern/Southern divide, but most of those are older folks and you usually just shake your head and laugh about it because you know these aren't the movers and shakers, the local leadership, or anything near the future of the Southeast...and if you haven't heard bluntness from Southerners, they've been nicer to you than you think. I don't know how old you are, but it seems this is more a generational thing.

avatar

Hi drosz,

Of course I'm generalizing my experience to the entire South, which is unfair. I certainly can't claim a broad expertise based on living in one state for such a brief time.

But I did it because nathalie guyol did it. ;-)

And I noticed the original post contains the same vestiges of The Old South in its nostalgic reverence for "Southern charm" that I experienced when I lived there. And that's what I'm calling attention to.

It could well be a generational thing or even a regional thing within the South itself. I lived in Virginia Beach, a resentful brew of retired military, genteel First Family of Virginia descendants, NC transplants, low-budget tourists, and segregated blacks. It's the First Family descendants who sat me down and gave me "Southern lessons" (which is what I called them): described the rules for how to tame my Yankee rudeness, how to speak and behave in order to better understand the dominant (wealthy) white culture there. So my ear is fine-tuned to pick up those secessionist traces when I hear them.

I moved to Virginia Beach 4 years after the 1989 Labor Day rioting on the Boardwalk. I never got the Labor Day story from any local black residents, just from a few local whites. I could easily see the racial divide everywhere I went in the Hampton Roads area, however: in the workforce hierarchy, the housing hierarchy, the hierarchical attitudes between blacks and whites. The roots still run deep.

I know Virginia voted overwhelmingly for Obama in its primary. Despite that one-day phenomenon, however, I won't believe the South is "different" just because someone on a blog says it is. The actual vote in November will prove or disprove our Old South vs. New South theories.

cheers,
rtbag

avatar

Since one of the largest voting cohorts is the elderly.....how do you bridge the divide that has
been built based on the older voters NOT voting for BO?

For starters, I talk to my peers.

Well, for starters I talk to other seniors like me.

Great post Nathalie - thank you.

I've been trying to hammer the point around various blogs that Obama's gravitational pull has more to do with his generational sensibility (he's a Gen-X-er like myself) and his intuitive understanding of the rising 'creative class' future than with anything else about him, especially race.

As a matter of fact, his new generational sensibility is the substance of the "post-racial" label: I am so damn excited that he 'gets' the 'creative class' cultural phenomenon that I would strongly argue against Ferraro's claim that his being black is what got him where he is. No Geraldine and Hillary - even if he wasn't black, but tapped into this feeling for the socio-economic-cultural future of the country he would be contending.

There will be more Obamas coming of both genders and various races!

Post a Comment

</