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The Beginning of the End (Or How I Learned To Love The Math)

I've declared repeatedly since the PA primary that this race is over soon after May 6th. Despite the high anxiety of Obama supporters and all the talk of Clinton momentum, I stand by this projection. My reason for saying so is very simple. There will not be enough remaining votes after May 6th to make a difference. Not to the delegate count. Not to the popular vote. After May 6th, you won't need any fancy delegate calculators to see that. It will be obvious to all. Once it's obvious, the media announces the inevitable, Clinton's money dries up, and the undeclared superdelegates move in greater numbers to Obama.

May 6th Projections

Let no one accuse me of May optimism. For my May 6th projections, I've selected the most Clinton-friendly polls to be had:

Indiana
4/30-5/1 ARG Clinton +9 (Avg. Clinton +5.5)

North Carolina
5/1 InsiderAdvantage Obama +5 (Avg. Obama +10.6)

Now let's see what these numbers would mean...

The Delegate Count

According to those Clinton-friendly polls, here are the delegate results after May 6:

Obama
Has: 1,837*
Needs: 188 (37% of remaining pledged + supers)

Clinton
Has: 1,699
Needs: 326 (63% of remaining pledged + supers)

Now, let's say Clinton wins the remaining primaries by an average spread of 10 points, which is extremely optimistic, especially since the largest state to vote after May 6th is Obama-friendly Oregon:

Obama
Has: 1935
Needs: 90 (30% of remaining supers)

Clinton
Has: 1818
Needs: 207 (70% of remaining supers)

So even under optimistic conditions for Clinton, Obama only has to convince 30% of the remaining 274 superdelegates and 19 Edwards delegates to vote for him. Clinton, by contrast, would have to convince 70% of them to vote for her. I do not imagine that she'll be able to do that without a solid popular vote win. By solid, I mean counting the caucus states and not counting MI. She may be able to convince some superdelegates to buy the twisted logic of including MI while excluding the caucus states but surely not 70% of them.

* For purposes of calculation, I've assumed that the delegates will be split roughly according to the projected popular votes, though in reality, it's more complicated than that. In addition, the Obama campaign claims more delegates than attributed to him at realpolitics.com. I've used the more conservative number.

The Popular Vote

Including the caucus states and Florida, Clinton is behind by about 317,000 votes. According to the Clinton-friendly polls, after May 6th, she'll be behind by 313,000 votes. How big would she have to win in the remaining primaries just to tie Obama in the popular vote? 59%. That's an 18 point spread. Raise your hand if you think Clinton will win the remaining states by an average of 59%. In this entire primary, Clinton has won only a single state by more than 59%. Arkansas.

(Note: I did not include Puerto Rico in the popular vote projections because I don't have voter numbers there and because it's not clear how they should count towards the total, since Puerto Ricans can't vote in the general election. If you were to include PR, the percentage would be slightly lower.)

How It Will Play Out

After the vote, the major news outlets will have their math geeks run the numbers, and they will say that Clinton has to win between 60% to 70% of the remaining votes (depending on the May 6th results) in order to win the popular vote. Then the news outlets will roll out their political analysts who will say that Clinton has as much chance of winning 60% (or more) as Obama has of bowling a 300. Then any superdelegates who were waiting to endorse Obama will cry "Yahoo!", and hop off the fence. Then the news sources will start counting down the number of delegates for an Obama win. Then Clinton's money sources, ashen faced, will put their wallets in their pockets. Then Richardson and various Obama supporters will call for Clinton to concede. Clinton will protest of course. She'll say she's a fighter. She'll say she's going all the way to the convention. But it won't matter anymore because the pundits will start their postmortems, the superdelegates will make their pronouncements, and everyone else will watch the clock tick down.

Homework Assignment

Count the number of journalists who employ the cliche, "writing on the wall," in the next three weeks.

Announcements

If you live in the NYC area, come watch the IN/NC results on May 6th at Revival, 129 E. 15th St., New York, NY.

Please join our group, TPM-aholics, at my.barackobama.com to help organize for Obama. We're planning a fundraiser in June. Please friend and contact me at TPM-aholics if you'd like to participate.

These events are not supported or endorsed by Talking Points Memo.

Calculations

You can see the spreadsheet I used for the calculations here:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pGeAYzG6mYCJZkbsfDIvJEA

There are some minor discrepancies due to rounding errors.

Data Sources

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/democratic_vote_count.html
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/democratic_delegate_count.html
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/04/23/935854.aspx
http://www.pollster.com/08-NC-Dem-Pres-Primary.php
http://www.pollster.com/08-IN-Dem-Pres-Primary.php


Comments (188)

All of your data does Not excuse that Collar!

But I hope you're right.

I just want to clarify my position, and I'm going to hang off Bionic's well-positioned to do so.

Some people have read me as saying that Clinton will drop out soon after May 6th. I was not and don't believe that she will.

Others have read me as saying the math shows that a Clinton win is mathematically improbable, which is true but not the point.

This post isn't about the math. It's about the story. In order to convince people that she's still a viable candidate, she needs a plausible story about how she can pull this thing off. Since March, her story has been that she can win the popular vote, get MI/FL counted, and convince enough superdels to vote for her. It's a reach, but imaginable.

After tomorrow, that story falls apart. What the math shows is that she won't be able to win the popular vote. So she needs a new story. Unfortunately for Clinton, there aren't any more good stories. If she were to be nominated without the pledged delegate count or the popular vote, or by some theoretical "nuclear" option, there would likely be riots in Denver and a civil war within the party. I can't see how it's reasonable to expect 70% of uncommitted superdelegates to sign on for that.

I'm sure that she can convince some people, but without a plausible story for her path to the nomination, there will be important voices--pundits, superdelegates, party leaders--who will stop taking her candidacy seriously. Because their voices affect the race itself, there will likely be a snowball effect where what they say makes her story even less plausible, creating more doubt among other voices.

Her campaign is in some ways ingenious, and perhaps they'll come up with a new plausible story that hasn't occurred to me. But I don't think that they have any stories left in their playbook.

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none of that explains the collar, dude

did you lose a bet or something ???

you could tell us, we promise not to laugh

hey, keep it down in the back there, I promised him we wouldn't laugh (heh heh)

I bet that someone would post a hilarious collar wisecrack every thread. So far so good.

Ahh, but what if she goes nuclear? The Clinton camp appears to be admitting they will fight to seat MI and FL during the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee May 31. With half the folks on the committee supporting HRC, it may work. This is looking like her most likely path to the nomination, with the remaining races merely used to push the argument that this is a "close race."

Hillary Clinton's campaign today acknowledged plans to try to win seating of the disputed Michigan and Florida delegations to the Democratic Nation Convention at a meeting of the party's Rules and Bylaws Committee on May 31.

First, counting FL and MI won't give her a pledged delegate advantage unless Obama gets 0 votes, which seems ridiculous. Second, she would still need the superdels. If it looks like Clinton has used party connections to ram through rules that screw Obama, it will be the same as if the superdels were to take the nomination from him without MI/FL. That perception is something that the party will work very hard to avoid.

I actually expect them to come up with some compromise that counts FL and MI but in such a way that it doesn't take away Obama's victory.

Ahh, but what if she goes nuclear? The Clinton camp appears to be admitting they will fight to seat MI and FL during the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee May 31. With half the folks on the committee supporting HRC, it may work. This is looking like her most likely path to the nomination, with the remaining races merely used to push the argument that this is a "close race."

Hillary Clinton's campaign today acknowledged plans to try to win seating of the disputed Michigan and Florida delegations to the Democratic Nation Convention at a meeting of the party's Rules and Bylaws Committee on May 31.

LET ME BE THE FIRST TO CONGRATULATE GENGHIS FOR HIS INCISIVE ANALYSIS.

He nailed it and as of right now, Wednesday 1:12 AM May 7, 08, evenINCLUDING Fla & Mi HRC cannot catch Obama in popular votes or delegates.

The nuclear option is moot as well.

Congrats again Genghis and all you Obama supporters.

Now let's unite our party and go out and win us a general election.

Yes, you've learned to love the math, but have you learned to stop worrying yet?

If I have any worry, it would be that Clinton pulls off some kind of poll-defying upset in NC b/c I don't fully trust polls. But no, if IN and NC go according to my projections or better and Obama doesn't check himself into drug rehab or proposition a cop in an airport bathroom, this thing is over.

Genghis;
I am generally with you, but I saw a troubling story on Huffington Post yesterday:

"Clinton considering Nuclear Option."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/05/04/clinton-camp-considering_n_100051.html

I will not relax until Obama has this thing literally in the bag: Clinton concedes and both Bill & Hillary announce their support for Obama.

I have no sinister projections such as she is running for 2012. I just simply do not trust her.

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She could pull huge numbers in WV and KY, and the compliant, lazy press will say she has serious momentum.

I have come around slowly to accepting that this thing is over. Fl and MI, if seated as is, is tantamount to stealing the election. Obama's support and money dry up. Completely. He could inspire me to do a great many things, but he could not inspire me enough to support her under those circumstances, or the party that allowed it to happen.

About a quarter of NC's votes have already been cast (unless turnout gets even MORE out-of-hand on Tuesday). From the polling available, early votes have been splitting about 60/40 O/C (really more like 59/37, but I like evens). I think something earth-shattering would have to happen to give NC to Clinton. Earth-shattering, as in the eastern half of NC from Greensboro to the coast literally breaks off from the mainland.

Short of that, I'm not seeing it. All the same, I'll be feeling a lot better tomorrow night when this is over.

Yay, math!

I'm an idiot. I misquoted the title and didn't even catch it when you obliquely point it out. Wish I could edit.

I'd just like address a comment by one_wilson in an earlier thread, suggesting that uncommitted superdelegates could vote for Clinton even though she loses the pledged delegates and popular vote:

Sen. Clinton's case rests entirely on 4 more or less sequential steps: winning an overwhelming majority of the remaining contests; closing the PD count; closing the popular vote count; and then convincing the bulk of the 300-odd remaining SD's that her star is dramatically ascending, where her opponent's star is dramatically headed the other way.

It's of course possible for 70% the superdelegates to defy the popular vote and pledged delegate count, but I think it's extremely unlikely. Many, like Carter, have already indicated a willingness to vote with the pledged delegate majority or the popular vote. Furthermore, were superdelegates to give the nomination to Clinton under these conditions, it would likely spark a massive schism within the party, as rightly or wrongly, there would be a widespread perception that party insiders stole Obama's nomination. I expect that most superdelegates get this and will vote accordingly.

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I can't wait for her to make the "I win the popular vote by including Puerto Rico" and "The states I've won have more electoral votes" arguments at the same time.

Let me reconcile that false contradiction for you, George.

We are going to advocate Puerto Rican statehood, and with it, the right of Puerto Rico to receive electoral votes.

This is consistent with our crusade for Guamanian voting rights, which I ask you to view and recommend:

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/05/our-campaign-for-guamanian-vot.php

I'm Bill Clinton. Clearer now?

Read and recommended. "Gotawife" is a great handle for you, Bill. But "goat-life" would actually work pretty well in your case as well.

Meheheheh.

hee hee hee hee hee

Hmmm, fat fingers look like sausages.

Salty!

Meheheheh.

Bill - Goat - Scalia three way is going to show up in my dreams tonight, I'm just sure of it.

Curse you all!!! Pox. Venom. Vitriol.

You are very, very bad people.

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I think the media is much more capable of rooting this thing on into more chaos than you give them credit for. From what I've seen, about one in ten is capable of the clear sort of logic you expect them to suddenly grasp.

This comment is in no way meant to distract from the depth and quality of your analysis otherwise, it's just the only thing I might take to task.

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One in ten media-type I mean...

agreed

What I want to know is (and really, this is a topic for another post, if not an entire dissertation): the media hires experts to do this same sort of analysis, and the public then trusts the "math" of those experts. So why, if these experts continually misrepresent the situation in order to dramatize it, are they still employed? Why aren't people watching these experts getting fed up with facts spun to play to the "media narrative" and demanding news sources that they hire less biased experts? (To be specific, I'm not talking about a pro-either-candidate bias. I'm talking about a pro-drama bias.)

The media corporations, of course, operate primarily to advance their own interests. So how did we, as a society, arrive at a situation where news-drama is more commercially valuable than plain old facts?

I've argued this point with several people here, and in life. In my opinion, the "drama" that you cite is a problem, but the real problem is the actual corruption. By corruption I mean things like the recent Pentagon "retired military analyst" war crime, or media consolidation and ownership by foreign/multinationals, or spin doctors on the payroll, or blackouts on stories like Sybil Edmunds, etc. There is such a thing as a lying by omission, and I believe the "drama" that you, and so many, cite is such a lie. It is a cover for actual corruption.

Ha! My bad... Sibel Edmonds.

Very Good Point California';
Perhaps with Obama in the White House we can start a grass roots movement to enforce the original congresional ruling about the media: "it is a public trust."

I would like to legislate that the "news" go back to reporting and be removed from the bottom line financial calculations. Whichever stations will not abide by the rules will not get to call their broadcasts "news" anymore.

They will be called "entertainment" and then people can be educated to take their stories with the grain of salt which they deserve!

I just wish Obama could win Indiana and NC on Tuesday. If he does that, it's over.

I fully expect a Rev. Wright press conference tomorrow that will be carried on all major MSM outlets and then replayed every hour on the hour for the next two days and the 3rd installment of the eve of the primary desperation ad (3am Call for Texas/Ohio and the Osama ad for Pennsylvania).

You're either kidding or paranoid, man. Wright will wait until after IN and NC.

Just to make (again) the point that it's not all about math:

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/05/you-hillary-supporters-should.php

Me? I can happily wait and see what the next 4 weeks reveal. Particularly since I've already had my (small) say and that's all I'm going to get.

I'm not sure that post is the one that you meant to link to. It has a link to the huffpo article about Clinton ramming through FL and MI. Seem as likely to me as 70% of superdelegates voting for Clinton when she loses the pledged and popular vote. Party officials are do not have a history of suicide pacts.

And for the record, the only way counting FL & MI gives Clinton a lead in the pledged count is if Obama gets 0 delegates from MI.

It's the correct link.

As far as suicide pacts, it's been a while since there has truly been an open convention... I imagine the MSM would love a floor fight.

It's really all up to the Dem Party Leadership at this point.

There is no Democratic Party Leadership, where the convention is concerned. That leadership set up the rules to be followed, got the candidates and the states to agree to the rules, and they are now set in stone. Howard Dean is the head of the DNC, but the most he can do is try to persuade the super delegates to make their decisions soon. Nancy Pelosi has already made her position clear, as has Harry Reid. The days when the big money people and the big unions ran the party are long gone.

In another thread it was mentioned that the delegates can choose anyone they please if neither Obama nor Clinton have a majority of the delegate votes. That isn't the case either. Delegates pledged to Clinton and Obama were chosen because they are committed to the very bitterest end to their candidate. They will vote for that candidate til the cows come home. I just don't see a single scenario that ends with Clinton being the candidate. (I hate to mention the one scenario that does work for her, so I won't.)

I'm not afraid to say it. She could poison Obama's pledged delegates

I missed this one

I now realize that I have caused great sadness to Hillary Clinton, her advisers, and a zany poster named workerbee

But who's got the "zany" shirt? Besides, it's the Obama campaign dealing out that poisonously colored technicolor kool-aid to the SD's. You got the story totally backwards.

It certainly looks like Obama has it all sewed up. Frankly, I'll be relieved if some one puts away the nomination, we need to start getting after the GOP. Those National polls are pretty disturbing.


Ha. I forgot about that--speaking of old battles.

I haven't seen bevd around lately. Perhaps she's gone off to the "Grey Havens", aka projectlucidity, with the other old-timers?

No, she was around yesterday or the day before - she pops in every once in a while. Poor woman - I hope her son comes home soon (if he's not already home).

I don't think so. She had some rather good posts today on the gas tax "holiday."

It seems she took Laura's advice. Probably a good thing. Just so you know, normally she has a pretty good sense of humor. I can understand why beating McCain is the most important thing to her right now.

Yeah, I felt a little bad going after her in that thread. I got frustrated when I tried to reach out sympathetically and got slapped back, so it definitely wasn't the nicest comment I've written. She seemed to mellow out in subsequent posts. I can see that she does indeed have a sense of humor and am glad that she hasn't abandoned TPM.

Me too.

I think you were pretty funny actually. But then I would.

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She has always been clear that she'll vote for the democratic nominee whoever it is. End of story.

Yeah. I noticed Bev's sense of humor a few weeks ago and complimented her for finally revealing it. Turns out she has a fine wit! I suspect it might be pretty twisted, too. I deeply admire a perverse sense of humor.

Genghis, I think you should keep trying to tickle ol' Bev's funny bone. I have a feeling coaxing Bev to let loose and get playful would be quite a coup.

I shall take it on as my personal mission. I never see her though. Or you for that matter. This community has gotten so damn big.

I think it would be suicide for the dem. party if it comes to the nuclear option. They'd most likely alienate most of the AA voting block (the most loyal voting block in the dem party).

Yikes....

Don't even want to go there myself.

I'm not entirely convinced that we're at a stage where we can hope that the media begins to count the clock down.

It seems more likely that we've become trapped in a Groundhog-Day-esque scenario in which it's always the *next* contest which is pivotal.

My worry is mainly that superdelegates will wait until after the primaries have finished before declaring - and even then it will happen as a trickle - so that on June 16th, or some suitably random date, the chairman of the nowhereville democratic advocacy party for nothing-much-in-particular, who also happens to be a superdelegate, finally declares - and, OH, WAIT, woah! Obama's the nominee. All of a sudden, Chairman Nobody becomes the deciding factor in our nomination, and the name "Democratic" becomes a punchline. Meanwhile, we're the laughing stock of everyone else, because it probably takes the media about a week to realize that Obama has the necessary delegates, or because they're still buying the Clinton crap about actually needing 2200 delegates.

In short, I'm glad that you left the "How I learned to stop worrying and..." part out of the title.

It seems more likely that we've become trapped in a Groundhog-Day-esque scenario in which it's always the *next* contest which is pivotal.

Thing is, there are no more pivotal contests. No room for momentum, no firewalls, no possible hail Mary's. The sum of the delegates in the remaining primaries isn't much larger than the sum of the May 6th delegates. And popular vote after May 6th (not including PR) is smaller than the popular vote on May 6th.

In short, I'm glad that you left the "How I learned to stop worrying and..." part out of the title.

An oversight. A shame because it would have improved the tittle.

Anything to improve the tittle!

I did not endorse the comment by that woman, MonicaL.

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Not even if she wins KY and WV by 65% or so? You think she won't spin that as huge momentum.

The woman is brazenly saying that she was never expected to win IN, for God's sake! She lies like Bush. Amazing. Totally astounding.

Obama will have a pledged delegate majority by May 20th, and effectively be the nominee-elect at that point. Nancy Pelosi and Jimmy Carter will endorse the day after as a result. Trust me on this one. ;)

Interesting analysis, I hpoe it pans out.

Has anyone stopped to think about what Hillary's support behind Obama might look like after everything she has said and done so far??

Will she come out in her concession speech and formally put the red boxing gloves down to the absolute dismay and horror of her most ardent supporters?

Will she tell us all that anyone capable of withstanding the "vetting" process she put Obama through is now truly ready to be CIC?

Will she tell us that having the gift to inspire many is truly a gift and that there really was some substance beneath the eloquence?

He really isn't just an empty suit, oh and it's clear he is Christian and is really one of us, latte drinker and all.......?

This is REALLY going to be interesting to see.

There is some talk that she's angling for veep and that's how the party will come together. You're right, that would be an interesting speech. I'm not a big fan of the idea, mostly because she's been acting like the worst of the Republicans, but I can see why it would be necessary.

Clinton as VP is impossible, no way it could happen at this point.

There is an article on Huffpo about Hillary going nuclear, ie an attempt to force MI and FL to be seated. Let's not kid ourdelves, they know the score in terms of vote projections and what that means in terms of securing superdelegates. I also think we will see a bit more than the 4/22 - 5/6 trickle of superdelegate endorsements for Obama. This means instead of needing 70% of the remaing supers, it will quickly rise to 80%, while Obamas 30% will fall to around 25% (Try for example putting 18 supers into the Obama camp and say 14 into the Hillary, if you feel like having some math fun).

I agree about the superdels trickling in and lowering the percentage. I didn't put them into my projection because it's not really projectable.

I think the "nuclear" option is outside the realm of possibility. It would "blow up" the party even more surely than the superdels voting en masse for Clinton.

But have you considered that Rep. Urbinato, who as you faithfully reported here at TPM has recently endorsed Barack Obama, has indicated he might switch to Clinton if she gives every superdelegate a pony?

On a serious note, thanks for the update on the math. The frustrating thing is that she and all the Clinton insiders KNOW the math, they know the impossible odds and yet they continue to blast away at the presumptive nominee.

More and more people are telling me that they will not vote for Hillary if she somehow gets the nomination.

I don't really understand Clinton's motives, Rep. Urbinato. I suspect that she's been hoping for an Obama meltdown. What's significant about May 6 is that it's really the last chance for such a meltdown to occur (excluding a true checked-into-rehab meltdown), and the polls don't indicate that the one in the works. So as of Wed., we're looking at a very different landscape.

(Also, I suspect that Clinton and some in her campaign may be slightly delusional about her chances. Talk about drinking the kool aid.)

It has begun to dawn on me that an upset in NC is her last hope of staying in the race. So I'm taking the day off on Tuesday and I'm going to go knock on doors here for Mr. Obama.

Many of your run of the mill Clinton supporters know that she's a long shot at this point, but don't really know just how much the math is in Obama's favor.


Special Agent P.J. Urbinato, you are the vessel of our hopes. She must stopped. There is no else who can save us now.

Seriously though, good on you for going door-to-door. In the event of an N.C. upset, the sad game continues.

Many of your run of the mill Clinton supporters know that she's a long shot at this point, but don't really know just how much the math is in Obama's favor.

Obama supporters too. But if your mission is successful, I expect the curtains to come on on this charade. There simply won't be enough votes left for people to pretend that Clinton can still pull it out.

Let's hope it's all over on Tuesday night. One math note from NC: about 500,000 people cast their vote early which is equal to half the total vote in the 2006 midterm general election. I know that the Obama campaign has been pushing this hard and assume these numbers benefit him. We'll see.

(one other thing- if somehow HRC pulled off the upset here, it would likely only be a popular vote victory. The way that delegates are divided by congressional district favors Obama). I'm predicting at leat a 10% victory for Obama.

I worry about a bizarre Clinton upset in NC too, because I am a worrier, but I'm still willing to believe this margin will be double digits or close to it.

polling that accounts for early votes has shown a consistent, large obama advantage - generally b/t 17-20%. he's done well there, and it will make a huge difference, esp. if (as predicted) the early vote ends up being around 25% of the total. That means he's got about a 5% guaranteed win even if they split the remaining votes 50/50, right?

unless my math is way off...

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Of course, I ran my own numbers and declared Clinton doomed shortly after the Potomac Primaries, and confidently predicted that the superdelegates would coalesce around Obama after Ohio and Texas had their say. The situation hasn't changed in the slightest, and won't really change even after Indiana and North Carolina.

What I'm trying to say is that it's dangerous to underestimate the ability of media and political elites to blithely ignore facts. We're in a cycle in which Mike Huckabee kept winning states long after he'd effectively been eliminated, declaring his confidence in miracles over math; in which McCain and Hillary have both embraced a gas-tax plan that will do precisely the opposite of what they claim, and dismiss their critics as malevolent elites; in which the results of state-level primaries are sometimes vitally important, and sometimes inconsequential, largely depending on what the last round of polling showed. A cycle, in other words, in which logic has not played a starring role.

Your math is impeccable. Your logic is flawless. And that's why I'm hesitant to embrace your conclusion.

Any explanation of the situation that requires more than two steps is unlikely to end the race. This thing will be over when another few dozen superdelegates endorse Obama, raising the percentage that Hillary needs to win beyond the bounds of plausibility. (You and I may realize that she hasn't a prayer of winning 50% of the remaining supers, much less 70%, but the general public does not.) It's my suspicion that there's a growing sentiment that the race has played itself out, and that there's a large block of congressional supers poised to endorse Obama and end this thing. But they're not willing to shoulder any risks; they don't want to be seen as ending it. They'd much prefer to be seen as ratifying the results of the primaries. So if he wins NC and IN, they'll come down off the fence, and declare the race over. If he loses IN, they'll probably wait around for a more propitious occasion, and the race will grind on. It shouldm't, mind you. But it will.

Oh sweet Texas - if only he'd won the popular vote there...

Given the rest of the calendar, if this thign doesn't end after Tuesday, I don't see how it will end until after all the primaries are held.

The Obama camp is smart to start the delegate countdown to the nomination - will be an event that gives Clinton a reason to bow out of the race.

Your math is impeccable. Your logic is flawless. And that's why I'm hesitant to embrace your conclusion.

That was very funny, FotW. That should be the title of your next post.

Your math is impeccable

High praise from the master.

I think that the difference between March 4th and May 6th is that after March 4th, there was still a Pennsylvania. If Clinton had scored a true landslide in PA and followed it up with huge successes on May 6th, she might have had a (long) shot. But there aren't any more Pennsylvania's after May 6th. She could win OR and landslide in KY and WV, and it won't make a lick of difference. As I wrote downthread, there are no big plays left in the game.

Don't get me wrong; I don't think that the pundits will declare the race over in one fell swoop, but we're going to start hearing a lot more about the end of the race, which will contribute to the feedback loop of superdelegates falling off the fence, which will then spur more talk of the end of the race, and so on.

And if I'm wrong, then you get to say, "I told you so". But my stick is in the sand.

... and then after Pennsylvania, there was still an Indiana and a North Carolina, and after Indiana and North Carolina, there will still be a West Virginia, and a Kentucky, and an Oregon, and a Puerto Rico, and a South Dakota, and a Montana. And yes, that's it for primaries. (Finally!) But after that, who knows? The chance that some ridiculous scandal will finish off Obama? Delegate scrambles in various caucus states? A decision by the credentials committee on whether to seat any MI or FL delegates?

After Pennsylvania, a smart-but-non-political friend mentioned her impression was that Clinton was "pulling ahead" of Obama. Because that's what you get if you read the news headlines.

I agree with Fly on this one. After each "firewall," the math looks essentially the same, and somehow the Clinton campaign finds a way to keep playing. I don't know what the next be thing will be this time, but I'm not going to believe Clinton is out of the race until she concedes.

After each "firewall," the math looks essentially the same, and somehow the Clinton campaign finds a way to keep playing.

It's not about the math. It's about the story. Now you can always make up a story about how Clinton can still win. Heck, Obama could be revealed to be a space alien. But important people have to believe that the story could come true. After May 6th, when it becomes essentially impossible for Clinton to win the popular vote, the story becomes a lot more far-fetched, and fewer important people will buy into it. My projection is that enough important people will stop buying her story to change the narrative of the race.

Again, you make sense. My brain agrees with you. But I've learned to stop trusting my brain.

100% agreed. Fly, you mentioned in your previous post that Supers are waiting for "cover." Could you speculate as to what form that "cover" might come in? A Gore/Carter endorsement? A manufactured Clinton scandal waiting to be uncorked? Obama holding a major speech claiming to have won, and accepting the nomination?

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The Clinton people seem "know" math like Karl Rove "knows" math. Maybe that is in an appendix of Karl Rove's playbook that the Clinton folks seem to be using.

But Rep. Urbinato was for Clinton before he was for Obama! Does that make him more, or less, likely to switch back?

You can't trust Rep. Urbinato - he'll likely go with the candidate who sends him a pony.

Thanks Genghis

Yeah nothing that you can try and reliably predict, just a hunch on my part. If it does happen, it will hopefully help her decide it's time to call it a day. They ran a tight race and this could give her a positive exit strategy.

TPM-aholics? Clicking that link would be an admission I refuse to make. I am perfectly capable of kicking this habit whenever I choose, you should know.

The first step is acceptance

And here I thought the first step was finding a dealer...

You know, that comment would go so much better with your TPM-aholics bottle avatar.

I thought that you were clearthinker until I read paige's comment. Quit toying with me.

I'm really glad you went with the Clinton-friendly outcomes... I hope it doesn't come to a 5-point victory in NC, though an 8 or 9 point Clinton win in Indiana wouldn't surprise me. You're undoubtedly right that this result would leave far too few remaining delegates for HRC to prevail, but she hasn't had much of a mathematical chance for a month or two. The media have already decided that math doesn't really matter. I think a near-10 point HRC win in IN and a narrow Obama win in NC would certainly feed the media narrative of Obama's Failings. Don't you think that is how they would interpret such an outcome? Add to that crushing Obama losses in KY and WV, and you have yourself a very unpleasant close to the primary season for Obama -- no matter what the mathematical reality is.

Maybe for a day. The thing is that we're so close to the endgame that I expect the pundits to take a hard look at Clinton's options, harder than they have to date, and they won't see a lot room for movement.

I apologize for another football analogy, but think about how a sportscaster reacts to the end of game with one team far ahead. As long as he can, he'll milk it for excitement, speculating about what the losing team might do to come back and getting excited when they complete big plays. But eventually, you reach a point in the game when the losing team cannot realistically come back, and talk of hail mary's and onside kicks starts to seem silly. So then the sportscaster switches modes and starts talking about the inevitable result and what the winning team did right and what the losing team did wrong and what an historic game it has been.

I expect that to happen after Tuesday. The pundits will see that there are no longer any big plays that can get Clinton the nomination. The last "big" primary day is May 20th, and it's half the size of May 6th, so it's not big enough to get excited about, and then there's nothing of importance after it. That is to say, Clinton could conceivably still score one last touchdown on May 20th, but she's down by too many points for it to matter. So not seeing an option to get excited about, the pundits will switch over to postmortem mode. They'll start discussing her strategic mistakes and Obama's incredible successes, and they'll begin looking forward to the general election. After all, the primaries are just the division championships. We still have the superbowl to look forward to.

And unlike a football game, what the pundits say can actually affect the race. They'll start using words like "presumptive nominee" and talking the about Obama-McCain matchup. Clinton's attacks will slide into the background. As people internalize her inevitable loss, they'll stop donating, and the superdelegate holdouts will feel more comfortable endorsing Obama, which then encourages more "the end is nigh" talk from the pundits, and so on.

I hope you're right! If so, we're good as grav