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Shouldn't I/we be allowed to vent?
I sean669 am no Barrack Obama! I support him because of that. I am a working class citizen who has been following politics closely for about 10 years now. My original candidate of choice was John Edwards. Barrack Obama has shown me the tempermant, the eloquence, the patience, the hope, the wish for togetherness, and the will to end the old style politics that diss enfranchise so many of the people white or black. Over the last 4 to 5 months my admiration has only grown for this man. He has something special in my opinion. Moving on to the title of this statetment/question, I do not anymore respect Hillary Clinton. Originaly, my only problem with her was the Iraq war vote. That Problem began to spread everytime she explained away her reasoning for that vote, rather taking responsibility for that vote in my opinion! That was the extent of my personal disagreement with her as a voter. Over the last few months and especially the last few days, the tactics she has employed have again driven me to as close as you can get to hating someone without knowing them personaly.
At this moment, Im listening to a caller on the Stephanie Miller Show call in and proclaim, "she likes Barrack Obama, but can't stand his supporters". I can't help but think that Im one of those people she can't stand. Ironic she called in right now because it helps me get to the point of what I'm writting. When HRC makes the statement after a loss in Indiana, (paraphrasing) that she is the only candidate who can get all voters, emplying the talking point that white people will not vote for Obama, do I have the right to be offended, and show a human reaction like anger? Especially in light of the fact that Indiana alone proves that she is not 100% correct in her talking point rhetoric! When she makes comments that I am elite knowing where she comes from and where I come from, do I have the right to be upset and share that point of view? When I know for a fact that Obama was getting an enormous amount of white voters early on, and she let loose the kitchen sink strategy, may I be upset with her for not knowing where to draw the line? If I perceive her as using a strategy that republicans use to divide people, and she is doing that in a Democratic Primary, do I not have the right to voice my opinion that, that is unnaceptable? I know there are some democrats who want me to shut up, don't talk about this, don't say it like that, but I ask you, isn't that intellectual dishonesty if we ignore her behaivor? Also is if fair that Obama supporters should be asked to do whats best for the party, but "royality" of the party gets to behave as if they have no responsibility? I am no Barrack Obama, he is a great man. He is also running for President, and there are things he can and cannot say for fear of Back Lash. I am only a working class citizen who has whitnessed some terrible things the last few months and shouldn't I and others have a right to comment on them? Constructive criticizm is welcome if you choose, but shouldn't I have a right to vent after her behaivor? I have know problem moving on after that, and really want to be apart and accepted to the TPM community. Just simply trying to be involved and learn something everyday, which I do here!
Comments (65)
Of course you have the right to vent, but you need to realize that venting in certain ways will harm our chances to defeat McCain in November. Sure, your vent alone won't make that much of a difference, but just like with voting, a vent here and a vent there, and suddenly things are changed.
I understand that it's hard not to say certain things. I can't claim to be perfect myself, but I appreciate it when people correct me on it.
If we want to make sure that a progressive course is charted in November, we need to make sure that we don't annoy those who would be our allies in this goal.
May 9, 2008 12:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Just for the record, you already are part of the TPM community. :)
May 9, 2008 12:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
I second this. The standards for being part of this community are fairly easy to meet (they let me in). I always enjoy your posts, so you can be sure that I won't vote you off the island (so to speak) and I doubt that anyone else will either.
Meanwhile, it seems to me that we all have the right to vent a little, but not too hard and not for too long. We have too much work to do still right now.
May 9, 2008 1:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thank you Missouri....lol you said not to hard...which kinda of...errr..well you know...I will move on, don't want to beat a dead horse. I appreciate your comments, and your posts are almost always good. Im just a Pup in this arena, but Im not afraid to dip my pin in the ink. Im just learning here, but also admittingly am sensitive and can sometimes have a big mouth. But to the extent of being able to call any politician on their bullshit on these threads, this really isn't about me. It's about the Dem leadership, at least to me.
May 9, 2008 1:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sean, this weekend the Obama campaign is rolling out a 50-state voter registration drive. That might be one way to channel your anger, help Obama, talk to voters who share your feelings, and feel a whole lot better while doing some great work for the people of this country.
Unfortunately I'm tied up in a business meeting out of town this weekend, but in general I find that getting out in the real world with real voters always helps me get a little perspective after I've let TPM wind me up.
May 10, 2008 2:25 AM | Reply | Permalink
Scofflaw....I will soon. Was laid off in February, so watch my daughter in order to save money on day care right now. Your right, I have to find a better...errrr more productive way to channel my anger and I will. We just moved and things are tight right now. No excuses though, I have not done all that I should be doing.
May 11, 2008 12:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Jeez, I'm sorry to hear that, Sean. I hope things start looking up for you soon. Hang in there ...
May 11, 2008 9:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
Clinton believes that white voters won't vote for Obama but black voters won't vote for McCain. What she doesn't get is that she could be effectively pushing black voters out of the loyal Dems category for the foreseeable future and also that if the party comes back together for the most part around Obama he will still have all of the necessary base of support he will need to beat McCain.
May 9, 2008 12:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks Ben. Im starting to feel that Im being catagorized as something I'm not, and in alot of cases you show the leadership and understanding to respond, I appreciate that! I will just respond to you by saying it's such a struggle because contrary to popular opinion, black people dont always want to pull the trigger on race issues. We may be typcast as "angry" and unreasonable. What your saying is I have to walk softly, and that point of view can sometimes force me not to be human, and it's a double standard. It truly is not fair. All personalities are not the same, and we are made up of our life experiences which sometimes form our personalities. I will leave you with, I understand that the game is moving on to McCain. The continuing of talk that reinforces racial devide that Hillary used, should make people as angry as I am white or black. But this is about venting, not to rehash her and what I think. Point I'm trying to make is an intelligent woman such as that, knows that language based on spin, (not truth) does nothing to unite the party. I simply vent about that because it moves you further from that goal. What I cant understand is asking Obama supporters to not respond to that,(weakness) and allowing her to annoy us and not hold her accountable (Party Leadership) is sad and is not fair. We have feeling too. Now Im done, and ready to move on, I just want if people are open some to understand where my particular anger comes from. Thanks again Ben.
May 9, 2008 12:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
I just want if people are open, is for them to understand where my particular anger comes from.
I promise, I speak better than I type...lol...:)
May 9, 2008 12:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh, trust me, I understand where the anger is coming from. My tongue is bleeding a bit because I'm biting it so hard. :)
May 9, 2008 12:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
Me three; I've gotten so that spit doesn't fly from my mouth when I talk about Hillary, but only because I check myself constantly.
Venting is good, reduces the chances of heart attacks, and helps with stress. But Ben's right--if Obama supporters focus all our energy on attacking Hillary (which is exactly what's happening right now on TPM) we're cutting off our nose to spite our face. Remember--if you're filled with anger and hate, all that adrenaline keeps your brain from doing what it's made to do--think clearly and make good decisions.
So go ahead and hate what Hillary has done, but try to remember that she's still a human being and that she still deserves to be treated like one. Maybe shunned, maybe criticized, but not beaten. And maybe even let go of it so we can get cracking on getting Obama elected.
May 9, 2008 9:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Funny how you can reading someone's post agreeing so much and then it takes a turn off course. If you think I think should be beaten, your wrong. Im critcizing her behavior everything you say we should do, but maybe your speaking in general terms. Although I think she is a human being and all that you said, maybe she should remember she is a human being and stop acting in such a way that may make people think she is not! I wasn't the one who called her a monster. Whether that person retracted it or not, they probably no her better than I do. Im commenting on what I have seen!
May 11, 2008 12:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Think she should be beaten
May 11, 2008 12:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
There are a lot of people saying incredibly stupid things because they think it behooves them politically to do so. They are relying on you (the royal you) to not be confident enough or intelligent enough or independent enough or progressive enough to speak what's on your mind and in your heart in the face of their interpersonal terrorism. Screw them.
You (this time, not the royal you) have every right to be angry. Anybody who is patriotic and loves this country with their heart and their head should know that we deserve better, and further, should feel like we have an obligation to hold ourselves to a higher standard than what we've seen during the last seven years. Anyone who is truly a Democrat should know that "the Republicans are gonna do it in the fall" doesn't justify every horrible thing we say and do in the spring. Is Karl Rove our standard now? On the one hand, some people treat him like he's the big, bad wolf, but on the other hand, their admiration is showing...
"Your anger is a gift..." provided you channel it the right way.
May 9, 2008 12:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
And if it wasn't totally clear, I recommended this post so hard, I think I need a new mouse!
May 9, 2008 12:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thank you ondioline....so much. I wouldnt call it a gift, because I personaly carry allot of baggage. Allot of resentment. But here is the thing, Obama gives me the hope that I dont have to be that way! Indiana and North Carolina and You..Give me the hope that inlight of all the old style race baiting tactics....The good people will eventually provail. I especially like your comment about Rove. That is where we are and where the Democrats are. What kind of party are you going to be going forward. The kind that Hillary represents which is what you complained about the last eight years...All of you hillary supporters know you did, or the party of drawing a line in the sand that says we are better than that. People are watching, I am just one who comes here to learn and share, and am the messenger. It is a defining moment....
May 9, 2008 12:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sean, Obama gives me that same hope. He's opened so many new possibilities for us to realize that a healthy, just nation requires that we help each other carry that baggage. What I admire about him is that it's not just a moral platitude, it's a pragmatic principle. So, pass that suitcase!
May 9, 2008 10:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
and your comment about channeling it did not fall on deaf ears.....I get it!
May 9, 2008 1:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sean, I'm glad you are expressing your righteous anger. You're being truthful about how you feel. That truth helps prove Clinton is wrong, wrong, wrong to say these things, and to believe that black people will vote for her no matter what crappy racist things she says about us.
That being said, the best way to burn off that anger is to help Obama win in November!
May 10, 2008 2:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
Scofflaw...Im signed up and live in Denver. I will be doing everything I can...:)
May 11, 2008 12:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
Heh heh. You're so lucky to live in Denver right now! Maybe you'll get to see Obama's acceptance speech live! (knock wood)
May 11, 2008 9:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sean, excellent post.
Ben and Missouri Voter both point out that there is a danger in venting in certain ways and too long and hard, and I agree with them. But I don't think you are in danger of crossing those lines. Your post was an expression of righteous anger, directed against the words and strategies employed by Clinton and her campaign, and is a far cry from the juvenile name-calling and schoolyard taunts that pass for political dialog in too many forums (including much of the media, and sadly, way too many TPMEC comment threads).
My minister gave a sermon not long ago about speaking truth to power, and in it he told a story about a girl who sees a bully picking on another kid on the school bus. She leans over the seat and tells the bully: That's mean. Stop it.
You are bearing witness to an injustice (and yes, I think that playing to racial divisiveness is an injustice). That's not only a right, it's a responsibility.
One more thing: there's a difference between saying "You're a bully!" and saying "That's mean. Stop it." Which words do you think have more power to bring about change?
May 9, 2008 2:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
You are correct, and perhaps I should've been more specific. This blog entry is not one that I was thinking about when I wrote about the dangers of venting in certain ways.
May 9, 2008 2:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
NitPicker....Thank you for the Feedback. It truly does mean allot. The next time something gets my back up I will try to remember that of what you all say. Here is to me hopeing I did not cross that line, and in the future will always be concious of doing so, but remember we are human so I will fail at times.
Point takin about the difference you propose. I guess if I wanted to take it further, I would hope that person would be open to understanding the difference as well. One is just name calling, the other explains the actions that are the reasoning for the name calling....:)
May 9, 2008 2:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
May I offer something we can all agree on?
http://www.starpulse.com/Actresses/Pinkett,_Jada/Pictures/
If I can only figure out how to get past W Smith I might have a shot!
May 9, 2008 3:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
You do know who she endorses, right? ;)
May 9, 2008 3:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
I still would like if all possible the intent of my post to resonate..but just this once, I will humor you,lol... I see you and raise you!
http://www.iceposter.com/posters/Vida_Guerra/G238774_Vida_Guerra_Poster.html
Now, Im done with that...
May 9, 2008 3:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for the inspiration on a friday afternoon.
Now back to your regular programming
May 9, 2008 4:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ack! I'm surprised my government-computer browser would even let me follow that link!
May 9, 2008 9:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Not sure it's anger we're venting anymore, but I will admit I involuntarily recommend any post that generates discussion leading to Vida.
May 10, 2008 12:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thinking of Obama and Michelle's character, most of the TPM posters on this particular thread and how fine Vida Guerra is, all help me self medicate
LoL...:)
May 11, 2008 12:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Me?
May 9, 2008 3:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
so who do they go get to decide to ask if Hillary is a Biggot or not, (which I never said she was!) Tucker Freakin Carlson! I'm sure Pat "Racist" Buchanons opinion will be sought out today as well. Tucker goes and states statics that do not add up. Indiana is pretty much white overall correct? Hillary received up to 10% of Republicans who supported her. Obama still came to with 1-2 points of winning that state. Does that not suggest the math she is using in her numbers is off? Obama has gained more super delegates since February, how is this Lie of message that he has a problem resonating with the pundits? Tucker Freakin weasel carlson??? Are you serious Msnbc? I mean,come on serious?
May 9, 2008 4:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
My reading of the Indiana exit polls is that 10% of the voters in the Democratic Primary described themselves as Republicans, Hillary and Obama split them 54% to 46%.
May 10, 2008 4:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
Riiiiiiggghhtt....Lets down play the fact any sensible person knows the republicans want to run against hillary, and are using the Rush Limbaugh talking point about chaos as the reason republicans are leaving his party....(so much spin). You can chose to play with those numbers and say you believe that Hillary and Barrack are splitting that vote. I however understand that if they can make havock they will, they want to run against Hillary over Barrack...And Barrack is still winning over allot of republicans in a genuin manner. All can be true at the same time!
May 11, 2008 12:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
sean669, you are to be commended for this post. It shows courage as well as humility. A desire to learn and a conscience seeking justice for all.
It's important to recognize and acknowledge one's anger. And sometimes we all get carried away in the heat of the moment. But if you have a conscience, and it seems that you do, you yourself will know when you have stepped over the line and you will make up your mind to be more careful in future.
It's a wonderful thing that you have taken so much time to become an informed voter and a political activist. And just keep on having an open mind as you grow and learn.
You are not only a member of this community, you are a worthy member.
May 9, 2008 8:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thank you TheraP, Concious is the thing....Much Respect.
May 11, 2008 11:24 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'll send you some pom poms.
May 9, 2008 9:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
give me a break.
venting is good and anger shouldnt scare you.
telling and speaking the truth is what is important.
stay silent at all the false charges and keep being polite so some people can give you their blessing and welcome you into their 'community"and you become a tool.
the idea that speaking openly and truthfully is somehow on a par to rage and anger and weakens one argument is silly false and self defeating.
May 9, 2008 10:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
Lol...Ok Jadez...>Thanks for he input...Dont want to self defeat myself. Tool, Huh? Got it!
May 11, 2008 11:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
Sean, I read your post today while I was at work and I recommended it without replying, because I was too busy to log on. But I felt every word you were saying and I heartily agree.
Every person here today who has commented (with perhaps one or two exceptions) understands and appreciates the need to vent. Injustice is injustice. Righteous anger is righteous.
My frustration with this situation knows no bounds, too. But as you so beautifully said, Obama cannot and will not vent, therefore keeping his higher ground high.
Were he not prevailing, I would be angry at him for not voicing it.
But he IS prevailing.
The hope and the belief and the dream are proving true. Have faith, and hang in there. Love and peace,
Lis
May 9, 2008 11:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
geez.
he wasnt talking about Obama winning.
he was talking about his feelings.
the two are are the same thing.
May 9, 2008 11:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
No shit?
May 10, 2008 12:41 AM | Reply | Permalink
Ok Jadez....
Now your losing me, I am talking about Obama winning. We need a united party. HRC language is not uniting if she plays off the divisions we have based on race! She said herself she has strong support among certain people. Whether its a false or true statement, she should be using the type of language that unites and not divids! Im told she is a well educated woman, so I do think she knows what she is doing!...Im sure your parents taught you how to lose gracefuly, my only point is exploiting the racial divisions in Amercica is one thing, doing it when you have virtually no path to receive the nomination, is unforgivable. I defended this woman in the past. She has shit on me every step of her campaign.
May 11, 2008 11:38 AM | Reply | Permalink
Dear LisB...Thank you for taking the time.
And Yes he is, and that hasn't given me hope, but conversly can't help but notice how Clinton is taking that news. There is no death to which she will sink that I assume she thinks is too low....:)
May 11, 2008 11:29 AM | Reply | Permalink
Ouch...Depth!
May 11, 2008 1:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
Offering an opinion on current events that includes a critical viewpoint is more than venting. Pure venting is when you yell incoherent exasperated gibberish at the TV set or draw handlebar moustaches on pictures of Hillary because you think handlebar moustaches make Hillary look stupid. (Not that I've ever done that. Honest.)
I think it's all about forum and audience. TPM reader posts collectively and comment threads are discussion forums where a diversity of views arguably is good. If you or others of us here ever find ourselves at a podium addressing a preponderance of Hillary supporters who are wondering whether they should support Obama, more controlled and judicious discourse might be in order.
May 10, 2008 1:11 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thank you Bdh...:)
May 11, 2008 11:32 AM | Reply | Permalink
Sean, I found your post quite compelling for its honesty. I wonder about a next step which might have you moving to a realm in which you feel less anger. Perhaps this is a long way off. When you're ready, it would be wonderful to read something by you that is not angry at all, so that we may see completely your tender side which is pouring out of your words. Respectfully, Levi
May 10, 2008 1:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
Levi, I understand....and on some level that's fair. Remember Im sensitive and sometimes take things wrong. Lately most of my posts consist of anger because that is the emotion that I feel. Its all underlined why above. It is not who I am, only at this moment and time. Also, I am a gemini..so tend to fluctuate from anger to happiness often. It wont be long before (if you not have already) I posts things that are uplifting.....Im just trying to be as real to myself as possibly can!
May 11, 2008 11:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
Sean, I'm trying to calm down about Hillary too.
Good post. girl from the bronx has your back.
May 10, 2008 1:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
Me too. Got your back, Sean.
May 10, 2008 2:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks Scofflaw....that's how we role...:)
May 11, 2008 12:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
That's my Girl...:)
May 11, 2008 11:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
Sean, many of us have been venting since November of 2000, non stop!
Hang in, we're headed for the finish line.
May 10, 2008 4:01 AM | Reply | Permalink
Can't come soon enough....HRC started to threaten that with race baiting though. We cant have that stuff in a Dem Primary in my opinion.....
Thanks for replying...
May 11, 2008 11:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
Sean, I completely agree with everything you wrote. Say it loud. Say it clear.
But there's one more piece to this that goes totally ignored in Democratic circles.
THE CLINTONS ARE NOT PROGRESSIVES.
I tired long ago of listening to Conservative rants about Liberals - with the Clintons as the center piece of their diatribes. They were wrong. Hillary has only reinforced this.
The Clintons are economic Conservatives who dismantled much of the New Deal legislation, beginning with major elements of the Glass-Stieges Act that have caused the current mortgage mess.
They are social moderates who have been luke warm on just about every important social issue - from gays to labor to law & order to the social safety net. Only a moderate/conservative president could dismantle welfare & other social programs that go back to the New Deal. Bill clinton presided over the implementation of 9 out of 10 of Newt Gingrich's Contract on America. Gun legislation is the only element that was spared. What Liberal/Progressive president does that?
Let's be honest. We liked them because they won the White House & we were tired of living in the wilderness.
But let's be equally honest about the negatives. They disgraced the Party when they were in the White House & did nothing to build the Party as we lost both Governorships & seats in Congress during his term.
There is nothing Progressive or Liberal about the Clintons.
That was a good enough reason not to vote for Hillary. They added to that, however, the fact that they are mean spirited. Cast them aside!
May 10, 2008 7:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
Bill.
Personaly did think I touched on that. Things like HRC's response to Move on. To me, it's not rocket science. Not even touching on things you state in your wonderful comments, her will to defend that Iraq war vote, and things I stated she has done to stay alive in this race, show you that they are not true Liberal/Progressive's. Thats just my opinion. I was willing to let that slide, but will not let her slide by running as a republican and throwing people I believe are a big part of the base of the party, and attacking this man using the republican playbook...I atleast will vent about that, who knows maybe it will drive me to do more productive positive things rather than vent in the future.
Thanks Bill!
May 11, 2008 11:50 AM | Reply | Permalink
Sean: I think you have every right to vent, as do any of us who have been offended by the candidate herself and the words and messages that have come from her and her campaign. I, too, realize that I don't have the patience and temperament of Obama, and I am amazed at how he keeps his cool. Thanks for this post.
May 10, 2008 10:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thank you KateO...
Seems you got the message of that post exactly!
May 11, 2008 11:51 AM | Reply | Permalink
We should also consider that there are still forces outside the Democrats that are trying to cause division (appearing in media, trollish posters...). They aren't likely going to stop. So before you vent, think about who is trying to set you off, and for what reasons.
May 10, 2008 11:29 AM | Reply | Permalink
Well Bat....
I thought I explained in the meat of my post for people like you to understand why its important to not sit on your hands at certain. Apply what you said to me, to the Democratic Leadership. I gave an example of a woman who called into Stephanie Miller's show. Im tired of HRC supporters saying they hate us! It becomes offensive at a certain point. Our candidate is winning, how do we continually swallow the antics and games she continues to play and not say anything. Obama sets a high bar, at the same time again, there are things he can't say, but I think he feels just like us! Im not running, just a working class citizen who votes and is whitnessing elements of the HRC campaign that are not/should not be embraced by the Democrats. I will always call any candidate on that before I walk away from politics for ever.......
So when you ask me to think about that, I ask you and the Democratic leadership, what do you think the republicans will do with HRC's talking points now that she has used them in Dem primary. Of course they were going to play those games, but they had no credibility before she gave it to them! Just my opinion.
May 11, 2008 11:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thank you all for replying. I now feel that it's off my chest...I hope the Dem Leadership puts and end to this soon, even if they dont..I still think I got where Im comming from off my chest!...
I'm looking forward now...Thanks to most of you..
Happy Mothers Day to all My wonderful Mothers here too.....:)
May 11, 2008 12:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
As of Friday afternoon, Obama has won this nomination. Can't wait to help him win the election! Helps take the edge off the anger at Clinton's shenanigans, doesn't it ;)
I think Democratic Party's plan is to let the superdelegates come out in dribs and drabs till after May 20 so the Clinton supporters can get used to the writing on the wall, then let the cascade come crashing down.
I can't tell you how inspired I am by a leader who really believes that America can and should live up to its noble ideals ... makes me proud to be (on my way to becoming) an American. Unfortunately, I won't be a citizen in time for Nov. 2008. But I can help GOTV, and make sure that Americans' votes get counted!
May 11, 2008 10:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
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