I'd say the same about all of the VP speculation.

Agreed. I've done my share of dialing for Obama. But my heart sinks when I look at the rec list these days, and see so many versions of the same point.

I think it will die down once the stories on TPM die down. You're asking the community to ignore fairly constant Lanny, Ickes, and Hillary quotes that are being posted all over the Election Central site.

I'm done with the primary, too. But until she decides she's done, she's is sucking all the oxygen out of the room (as someone else recently said). She's doing her best the poison the well.

OH, come on, we all miss BionicSoy. Did you ban him or what? Let him come back! Free BionicSoy!

Just kidding.

I have found it depressing how simple minded so many of those kind of posts are and at their great quantity. I once looked to TPM for pre-eminent political analysis and I really don't understand why TPM has let it go this far as to be branded with the Hillary obsessive compulsives therapy group.

If it was my website, I would have made a statement along these lines quite some time ago. If I were you, I'd make it clearer that it's coming from management, not just Andrew Golis, member. Of course, I'm not you, but you really should be aware that you have been branded this way by many elsewhere in the blogosphere after the big influx of bloggers with your new system They took over the website brand, and management just let it happen, and it is the website brand now according to many comments I have seen elsewhere.

It's not just the blogs, I have been struck by how many of Greg Sargent threads simply ignore the topic after a few comments and go into Hillary-hating group meeting mode, with reaffirmation after reaffirmation.

I am an Obama supporter but I am interested in politics, and a site specializing in Hillary hating is not at the top of my list, sorry. Many of the Hillary obsessed are going to continue until she leaves public life, so the nomination of Obama is not a solution to the problem of attracting this audience.

Okay Dad...but can we still bash McCain? How about Lieberman?

We'll go away when she goes away.

You know, I was just about to post something about how tired I am of all of this, but it has a decidedly "tired of Hillary specifics" bent to it. So I shall resist in honor of your request. Although I am sad because I thought it was much needed humor in this regard. But, I do get you point. Besides we need to save up our energy for McClain bashing, and stopping Iran bashing, and speculative oil price bashing, and Republican VP whoever they may be bashing, and blogging, hoping, praying that Rove finally gets his from Congress bashing!

I would like to toss my 2 cents in with those who point out that much of the reaction responds to the coverage that the TPM staff provides. Over 50% of the coverage could/should be expected to incite negative feelings in Obama supporters directed at Hillary Clinton. Of the 12 topics on ElectionCentral, these 6 are all about BS that Clinton is pulling - most of them different angles on the exact same thing:

"Hillary: All Evidence Says I'm The Stronger Candidate"

"Dem Party Lawyers Say Rules Committee Can't Seat Full Delegations"

"Gallup: Hillary Is Right About General Election -- Sort Of"

"Hillary's Letter To Super-Delegates: I'm The One"

"Hillary Camp Again Invokes Florida Recount Debacle; Obama Camp Says They're Not Encouraging Protests"

"Harold Ickes: Hillary Will Need "A Few" More Super-Dels Than Obama To Catch Him"

That's like yelling "FIRE" and expecting nobody to scream and run for the exits.

Maybe first you should start by having a little talk with Greg. He doesn't even seem to think that the Idaho republican primary is worth mentioning, but we get 6 stories about Clinton's party-wrecking emotional breakdown. Is it any wonder why people keep obsessing?

What????????????????????????

and spoil all of our fun???????????

No way.... Besides everyday there is something new to be angry about or befuddled by or shocked and disappointed or something we must reject AND denounce (because simply denouncing or rejecting is not enough).

"Anyone can become angry; that is easy. But to be angry with the right person, to the right degree, at the right time, with the right purpose and in the right way — that is not easy." Aristotle

Then bring up a new topic yourself that is worth discussing. Whining about others' whining is pretty weak.

Hillary Clinton has spent her entire adult life in public service of one kind of another.

You may think Barak Obama is a better choice for president, you may not agree with her policies or the way she's run her campaign. But she has dedicated her life to trying to make things, in her opinion, better, and she deserves better than that kind fo comment.

If you support Obama, I would have to agree there is no reason to attack Clinton.

Repeat to yourself:

I want PRESIDENT OBAMA

Then think about nasty posts against Clinton and ask, "do they help you achieve this goal?" I don't always do that but I should and so should more of us.

Then talk about McCain or even throw in a conversation about an issue.

Failing that, pick on Andrew Golis (did you volunteer for the sake of the cause to be the surrogate for HRC when we are angry?).

Andrew,

This is the most disingenuous post I've seen from the "official" TPM staff. Stop posting every burp and belch from the Clinton Campaign if you think the election is over!

Hillary doesn't think the fight is over. She is now going to try GOP tactics to use the DNC ruling on MI and FL as a pseudo-referendum on the 2000 election. Complete with protesters a la what the Bush people did in 2000.

Do you remember how the Dems said "let's just let the process play out"?

That's the reason why we ended up with Bush. He simply acted as if he were elected.

For the record, I will note that my peak oil posts don't get nearly the same airplay -- either in terms of comments or recommends -- as my posts on the election. I have many ideas as to why. Perhaps it's because you actually have to have a deeper appreciation of issues to read them. I see similar "low-turnout" from other serious blogs here. But everyone now has an opinion of Hillary -- and she really does polarize everything she touches.

That's not leadership.

Hillary is toxic to the American political process. As David Geffen said (and I now believe): the Clintons lie so easily. She has made this campaign a referendum about her: her as a woman, her as a Clinton. I can't remember the last time she talked about a substantial issue facing the country in a careful manner.

Can you?

She has clearly shown that the only way she will let the process move on is to have been literally beaten into submission. I am happy to oblige.

Andrew Golis:
"HALP!"

Well if I wanted to talk about someone other than Hillary, Obama or McCain, I probably wouldn't be on a political blog. Hillary Clinton is still running, still claiming that she's the best candidate for the job. When/If she drops out, I'll stop criticizing her.

Hillary who?

Part of the reason every thread devolves into tired rehashings of the same argument is the four or five people who do nothing but post obnoxious and hate-filled rantings a that derail each EC thread into arguments.There are people who really who really do nothing here but troll and it might be nice if there were some way to deal with that--either being able to hide things from specific posters or some enforcement of the terms of service. I believe it would help the atmosphere around here enormously and discourage a lot of the irritation that leads to HILLARY SUX, NO OBAMA SUX postings.

Greg, you really can't expect people to cease commenting/complaining about the latest HRC development at this juncture, just when we are approaching the climax of a legitimately amazing/appalling/stupefyingly weird primary process that so many of us are passionately engaged in! This is it, man - this is life, this is participatory democracy and free speech in all its glory and ugliness.

No. Hillary is just another Republican who pretends to be a Democrat for her convenience (just like Bill), and she makes me angry. She makes me just as angry as Bush, Rove and Lieberman. There.

Hillary => angry.

OK? Angry.

Seriously, I left it in my locker when I was playing basketball and after I showered I came back and it was gone. The next day I saw her wearing one just like it and she saw me looking at it and laughed that cackle. Then she smiles and arches her eyebrows like she's daring me, "you got somethin to say? Huh, do ya? do ya?" Then she cocked her head at her secret service agents and gives me a real mean look like "don't even think about it, cuz one word from me and you'll be branded a dead sexist assassin."

I really liked that watch.

This isn't just about Hillary. Things go sour whenever we start to treat this site as a substitute for political action -- arguing and recommending blogs as if we were somehow "swinging" public opinion by doing it.

Hat tip to you. You got it right. It's a circle jerk in an echo chamber. You're a very reasonable Obama supporter.

I openened this and after I read it I thought... nevermind.
But at the close of the day... NO, it's not time for me to stop feeling angry and it's not time to stop writing about it. Anger is an expression of boundaries in my view. Now if the Clintons were not pushing against my boundaries every day with their outrageous comments, lies,and attempts to use and manipulate me and my fellow americans... then I would agree with you.
But there were a few that happened today so... sorry. I understand that people want it to stop... so do I but as far as I am concerned the day I stop feeling angry and stop expressing my boundaries with such unhealthy and undesirable behavior... that's the day I am allowing myself and others to be compromised, I become complacent, and I stop caring. From my perspective 'that' may have actually been what helped GW Bush get elected and stay in office...
too many people become too comfortable with the mistreatment and lack of integrity in their leaders. Seems like we should demand integrity, not expect corruption. WE need to 'change' if we want things to change.

Did Bush or Cheney ever generate this level of personal animus?
I don't remember seeing anything like it before.

I agree with Andrew that the Clinton campaign has been "cynical and disingenuous." I'm glad they lost. But one reason to pull back from the brink of Hillary hatred is that it's possible, just possible, that gender has something to do with it.

I hasten to say that I'm not accusing anyone of being "a sexist." I don't think sexism is a disease that some people have, while other people are disease-free. But I do think that gender shapes our perceptions.

When Bush lies to get power, he's an asshole. Nuff said. What do you expect?

When Hillary lies to get power, she's a monster. She has an abnormal, inexplicable thirst for power. She'll do anything. She never sleeps. She has a brazen disregard for criticism and public opinion -- you'd think by now she'd get the point!

I'm not denying that she lied to get power. I'm just suggesting that we need to be a little suspicious of our tendency to feel that there's something unusual, exceptional, monstrous about it in her case. That perception could, possibly, be related to gender. Another reason for us to chill a little.

When she, her husband, and her campaign stop undermining, I'll stop writing about how angry she makes me.

Now caucus states don't count, in case you haven't noticed.

It may be tiring for the regulars here to see yet another outrage-at-Hillary post, but when she or her surrogates come out each day with some new signal that they may go further, e.g. fight to the convention floor, etc. then perhaps the level of boil from the netroots needs to reach an even hotter outrage temperature for the DNC to take a leadership role.

AnitaBee is on point.

I've been disturbed by the idea of giving Clinton the benefit of the doubt. Talk about appeasement. Members of the press, as well as people posting on this site, keep telling us that's she's ready to wrap up. We back off only to find her actions are contrary to these statements. We're assuming that Obama's move to the general election is going to bring an end to the primary season. There's no evidence that she's going to leave without the "encouragement" of super delegates. Her rhetoric is that she has every reason to continue right through to the convention. At this point, it's not about the primary; it's about winning the soul of the Democratic party. In that context, who thinks that anyone should be less critical of Hillary Clinton?

Furthermore, I don't understand what we mean by bashing. I hate when Hillary is criticized for things that have nothing to do with the process. However, criticizing her for staying in the race and threatening to drag on this process is not bashing. Using the term "bashing" -- even if Andrew Golis suggests that some of it could be fair -- suggest some lack of fairness by those who don't agree with her. I don't think unfairness exists in this case.

An alternative to complaining is to take action. And Hillary’s supporters are working overtime lobbying the supers on her behalf.

For an easy to use, state-by state, daily updated list of all the superdelegates that shows who is still undecided, and how to contact them by phone or e-mail, visit our website:

http://www.supervoters.org

We are focusing on superdelegates who are also elected officials and accountable to their constituents. Our site has sparked petition drives to superdelegates in seven states including North Carolina, where we first organized.

Take five minutes and use the tools on SuperVoters.org to contact an undecided superdelegate near you.

Erik Ose
Co-Organizer, Voters for Obama
Chapel Hill, NC

All I can say is I wasn't a misogynist before this primary season. I completely am now -- proudly so. Luckily, since I'm gay I don't ever have to deal with another woman again if I don't want to, except for my mother and my daughter -- both of whom agree with me.

the thing we need to focus on is how to minimize the damage her out of control rage will continue to inflict on the party's nominee.

So you just wanted to say that Hillary is "disingenuous and cynical" and you want the Hillary bashing to stop. I find that rather disingenuous and cynical. But feel free to stop.

First of all, the emotional, psychic and intellectual bruises many experience as inflicted by Hillary's strategic destructive and outrageously divisive behavior are fresh hurts and not anywhere nearly healed. Furthermore, she and her followers are posturing and promising to add to those unhealed bruises with more bruising blows to our Democratic party unity in just a couple of days at the DNC meeting on Saturday.
In other words, it may be that these fresh bruises need time to fade before a lot of Democrats can stop throwing up their defenses and anger against what is expected to be continue from her camp.

Second, at the same time I write of so many feeling bruised, I also think that Hillary's supporters are coming from a place of feel too bruised. It is a rough time and I would feel better about Andrew's plea if he had included both side in the admonishment.

The problem for me with Hillary's current positioning and that of her supporters is that whatever comes from Obama and his supporters will be equally received as Hillary-bashing. If we continue to respond critically to Hillary's egregious behavior [assassination statement, popular vote substitution, etc], we are 'piling on'. But if we try to let all that go and focus on the general election, we are arrogant in ignoring Hillary and deaf to her last minute arguments.

Even though I am a Clinton supporter, I think articles and posts about the primary will of course continue until the primary is over. Perhaps the better thing to ask is that the people who spend so much energy hating Clinton try to spend a quarter as much supporting Obama or attacking McCain. You know, just to show that their support for Obama is something real and not just that he's not Clinton; to show they are capable of being for someone and not just against someone.

That would really change up the dynamic of the site a lot. I know that there are Obama supporters who support him for good, positive reasons and not out of a visceral hatred of Clinton. Many of my friends and colleagues support him for positive, rational and real reasons. Sadly, here the majority of support for Obama seems rooted in anti-Clinton hatemongering rather than in anything real. This makes me worry that the support will wither when Clinton isn't around to animate them anymore.

Of course, that's not true of everyone here. But you all know the folks I am talking about. They are prolific and dominate the conversations with their obsessive hatred of her.

Nixon for President!

(Just thought I'd change the subject.)

I didn't even realize that you're the fucking deputy publisher of this site. What an incredible bitch move. If you're sick of people complaining about Hillary, then perhaps you can come up with something worth talking about. How fucking weak.

Andrew, your plea to lay off the anti-Hillary posts might carry a little more weight if your staff weren't actively promoting stuff like this in the daily editorial recommendations:
"Doug DeLong explores and reports back from the Hillaryis44, the "Church of Hillary." His verdict: "anyone who would so easily abandon their party just because they're miffed that their candidate lost is not a true Democrat."

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/05/29/the_ones_that_got_away_6/

Or maybe your position is that it isn't OK to bash Hillary, but her supporters are fair game.

Just sayin'. :-)

I have read a couple dozen posts that say they'll stop hating Clinton when she stops fueling the fire - which they define as ending her campaign and making nice and going home. Two of them are folks who said just this last weekend that they have never seen anyone try to push her out of the campaign. It could be funny if it weren't about something with such high stakes.

The thing is, she has the right to run. Yeah, I was irritated that Jerry Brown didn't pack it in earlier in 92, but mainly because he was just embarrassing. I certainly didn't begin to imagine he ate children for breakfast and harbored secret hopes of getting the nomination by default. Of course, he kept running despite having no imaginable chance, but still there was not this sort of hatemongering. There was some laughter, mainly.

Obama's supporters seem to think this is a landslide. It isn't. The insistence that someone with nearly half the popular vote pull out before the last primary is incredibly arrogant and flat out wrong. Or, maybe it's that you see clearly that it's not a landslide? That it's so close she could make her case? You know, don't you, that he would not be in the running under the electoral college system - if primary votes were not proportionately allocated. Is that why you all are such bullies?

I am proud that she won't be bullied out of the race. I am proud to vote for someone who is not a quitter.

Golly, I am trembling in my stilettos, you manly man, you.