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Seriously folks, you can stop writing about how angry Hillary makes you now.
Bashing Hillary, fairly or unfairly, is both unnecessary and increasingly beside the point.
I think most of us are well aware by now that you and other members of the community think she's disingenuous and cynical and that she should drop out. I'm not disagreeing with any of those things, but can't we come up with other things to talk about?
Just sayin'.
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Comments (254)
Indeed
May 28, 2008 3:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
After 6 solid months of repeating the same palavar, it would be asking too much to quit cold turkey. These people would end up running around in circles chewing on their tails, knawing on their excrement.
May 28, 2008 10:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'd say the same about all of the VP speculation.
May 28, 2008 3:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
Veep speculation is different, because it's an actual open question. But yes, it is something that can be way over-obsessed on by we political junkies.
May 28, 2008 3:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
This makes me really angry.
um. sorry. Reflex.
May 28, 2008 5:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
How can I stop when she and her people won't stop making me ANGRY! Every time I hear her raise the bar and change the rules, my f*&^%$@ head feels like it is going to pop. The lies, attacks, lack of respect for fellow party members. ARGHHHHHHH!!!!!!
May 29, 2008 12:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
The lies, attacks, lack of respect for fellow party members.
Funny. Exactly how I feel about Obama-bots.
It's my understanding that Obama supporters believe that they are the "new" Democratic Party and that all Clinton supporters are no longer needed ... or wanted.
I'm reasonably certain that Barack Obama cannot be elected to national office without my vote, and the votes of the millions of Clinton supporters you want to disappear.
Just sayin'.
Thanks.
mp
May 29, 2008 1:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
"I'm reasonably certain that Barack Obama cannot be elected to national office without my vote, and the votes of the millions of Clinton supporters you want to disappear."
Don't include yourself. My vote will nullify yours.
So there!
May 29, 2008 1:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
And can we please knock off the "Open Letter to _____ Supporters." Please??? Or I'll be forced to write "An Open Letter to Crazed TPM Open Letter-Writers."
May 29, 2008 2:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes We Can!
But we don't wanna, I'm afraid.
May 28, 2008 3:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Trying to do my small part to help begin to unify the Democratic Party, I had promised myself that I would halt criticism of Clinton in print and on the Web. There is, after all, so much to be said about McCain and Co. But this evening I find myself unable to carry through on this pledge. There are two significant reasons."
From "Why I Can't Stop Criticizing Hillary, yet (although I wish I could)"
http://msa4.wordpress.com/
[I wrote the above on May 26....sadly, I am still trying, although I have refrained from new writing blogs on her.)
May 28, 2008 10:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
Agreed. I've done my share of dialing for Obama. But my heart sinks when I look at the rec list these days, and see so many versions of the same point.
May 28, 2008 3:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
What's this? Why I do declare, it's a whiff of fresh air!. It's something new!
(scrolls down)
Oh well, nice while it lasted.
:(
May 29, 2008 12:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
Andrew,
It is like telling Josh to stop writing muckraker. For too long we have had the wool pulled over our eyes. Lies, corruption, deceitfulness.
Most of us have been posting here before this whole election got started. I personally started posting during the US Atty scandal.
Most of us here have a pretty good bullshit detector and when the fate of our nation depends on who will be the next president we have 2 democratic choices:
A decent, honest, ethical person with good judgment
or
A Fox news, Karl Rove, Richard Melon Scaife loving candidate.
You might as well tell us to stop criticizing the Bush Administration.
May 28, 2008 3:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, Josh doesn't write Muckraker.
But setting that aside, we focus on uncovering new information and persuading people to think about new things. Notice that we're not still writing about the US Attorney scandal, since folks picked up on that and everything...
May 28, 2008 3:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
On that -- I generally agree that the TPM talk blogs could be a little more interesting (including some of the junk I write -- usually reactionary). Maybe you guys could start highlighting good reader blogs on the from TPM page or the TPMEC or Muck front pages (as in highlighting in posts by you guys; not just those voted up on the side).
May 28, 2008 3:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Or maybe folks can just vote on better blog posts :)
May 28, 2008 3:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ha. That would be nice. But maybe a little persuasion through publicity or exposure-by-example might help.
Think of the more successful DKos diaries. They are nurtured by those who run the site. I know this isn't meant to be Kos2.1, but the idea of nurturing the good isn't terrible.
May 28, 2008 4:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
They are doing a good job of rescuing posts here these days with "The Ones That Got Away."
May 28, 2008 4:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think the RBC meeting coming up and speculation on HRC's arguments are pretty current. As well as speculation that legal activities might ensue from the decision. There are many topics on this primary that are still current and news is being added everyday. I'd love to say "forget it, lets concentrate on other newsworthy events" but this seems to be the most important in a lot of posters minds right now. It would be a mistake to ignore her and assume it is McCain vs Obama.
In my mind it is no different than posting the newest outrage in a congressional hearing. Granted there are different players, but they are all part of the Bush Administration. So too with the outrages of HRC campaign.
We can agree to disagree, but the recommended list speaks for itself. This is what people want to talk about.
I am sick of it too, Andrew, but ignoring it will not make it go away. Things will calm down once we have a definite nominee.
May 28, 2008 4:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
Great points.
As long as there is something to discuss that is topical (and let's face it, Hillary keeps making mistakes that cause a good portion of Obama's supports to scream "WTF?" at the TV) and there are agent provocateurs of whatever camp spreading disinformation or out-right lies about Barack, I am afraid this is what will be discussed and recommended on the site.
I've tried non-election related posts before and they fail miserably.
I also take exception to the idea that the current crop (or most past crops) of Recommended Posts are all based on Hillary Hate, an idea that is taking hyperbole and promoting it to reality. Most blogs that are critical; of Hillary or her surrogates carry a faint (sometimes not so faint) hint of disgust and disbelief, but are mostly on recent topics form the campaign and are hardly fact-less diatribes.
Some may even approach the level of vitriol that would be worthy of pause or censure. Most, though, are simply musings on the state of the campaign or attempts to debunk the corporate media narrative or highlight something that escaped under the radar. They use strong, uncompromising language, but that doesn't mean they are hateful.
This is what truth feels like. It can be ugly. It can be loud. But it is almost always helpful to move the discussion forward, no matter how uncomfortable it may be in the short-term.
May 29, 2008 8:04 AM | Reply | Permalink
But Andrew, we don't have a nominee! Can't we please whine until, like, June 4? Then we'll stop. We promise.
May 28, 2008 4:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ahhh..but can we keep that promise Bunnykit?
May 28, 2008 5:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think it will die down once the stories on TPM die down. You're asking the community to ignore fairly constant Lanny, Ickes, and Hillary quotes that are being posted all over the Election Central site.
I'm done with the primary, too. But until she decides she's done, she's is sucking all the oxygen out of the room (as someone else recently said). She's doing her best the poison the well.
May 28, 2008 3:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
Good point. If TPM would quit posting annoyingly meaningless polls and articles explaining how Hillary still has a chance to win, I think people would be a lot less inclined to express their feelings about her.
May 28, 2008 5:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree. But those annoyingly meaningless polls and articles will continue being posted until Hillary gives up.
But Hillary won't give up. Ever. When Obama takes the oath of office, she'll be twisting arms to become President Pro Tem of the Senate, and reminding people that seven Speakers of the House have died in office and Spiro Agnew had to resign as Vice President, so, you know, anything can happen.
May 28, 2008 7:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm not getting what's wrong with telling us what's being printed elsewhere. Hell, Greg Sargent posted quotes from a thing with quotes about Clinton's screwy calculus, pointing out in his post that her math was screwy, and the entire post got clogged with angry accusations that by posting it he was arguing that Clinton was right.
I'm guessing that there'll be posts here about Hillary even after Obama gets elected. That's what happens when we get too partisan. It's like the movement feminists who can't allow for the idea that women should be able to vote for whomever they want. They're still fighting the old fight; some Obama supporters will keep yelling the rest of their lives.
May 28, 2008 10:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm not saying there's anything wrong about those items being posted. They're being posted because the issues are unresolved, so the news items are relevant. When the issues are resolved, then those sorts of news items will no longer be relevant, and for the same reason, the comments about Hillary will drop by a couple of orders of magnitude.
Hillary will still be in the news, but I hope (without high confidence) that at some point she'll stop endorsing McCain, arguing that Florida voters should vote for McCain if the DNC doesn't seat all of the delegates, and all the other things that serve no purpose other than keeping her campaign on life support at the expense of hurting Democratic chances in November.
May 29, 2008 1:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
There's nothing wrong with it. But they should expect us not to respond to the items they post. And hearing, day after day after day, that Hillary still thinks she can win this thing is annoying and insulting to one's intelligence. We know, we know, we fucking know what she thinks.
May 29, 2008 6:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'd much rather yell about the deplorable state of the country than some two-bit politician who can't seem to get much done despite years of diligent effort.
I am pretty sure most Obama supporters would love to talk about anything but the primary election. Hillary won't concede, though, so the drama continues.
As soon as Barack is the nominee, we can turn to eviscerating McCain and use that as a springboard toward eviscerating the political and financial elites that are killing this country's future in exchange for 1,000 acres in Argentina.
May 29, 2008 8:10 AM | Reply | Permalink
i wholeheartedly concur. if those who run TPM would prefer to see less criticism of Hillary because its a done deal and she is no longer relevant, they should stop breathing oxygen into the hypocritical and bankrupt arguments the candidate and her surrogates put forward to justify their claim to a place in a continuing and relevant contest.
cuz, ya know, those kinds of arguments are what get us anti-hypocrisy/bankruptcy types riled.
May 29, 2008 2:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, it's like you're serving us big, steaming bowls of poo and telling us to eat up and keep quiet about it.
We want some good chow, dammit!
May 29, 2008 10:32 AM | Reply | Permalink
Seriously Andrew, you should complain to whichever joker came up with the brilliant idea of an eight-month primary campaign. After so many months of spin and lies and bullshit, sanity is becoming scarce. Folks just want it to be over, but are absolutely powerless to make it so. Of course they're restless.
May 28, 2008 3:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
I am looking forward to the 10 July, 2008 hearing of Karl Rove in the House Judiciary Committee in light of Scott McClellan's memoir.
May 28, 2008 3:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
Now you're talking!
May 28, 2008 4:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
Interesting. I'd like to know more. Does McClellan get into the selective-prosecution angle at all? I had the impression that was why Rove was testifying.
May 28, 2008 4:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'll believe it when I see the Master of Darkness actually appear at the hearing in his black cloak and mask.
May 28, 2008 10:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
OH, come on, we all miss BionicSoy. Did you ban him or what? Let him come back! Free BionicSoy!
Just kidding.
May 28, 2008 4:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
This really is good news for Hillary.
May 28, 2008 4:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
I have found it depressing how simple minded so many of those kind of posts are and at their great quantity. I once looked to TPM for pre-eminent political analysis and I really don't understand why TPM has let it go this far as to be branded with the Hillary obsessive compulsives therapy group.
If it was my website, I would have made a statement along these lines quite some time ago. If I were you, I'd make it clearer that it's coming from management, not just Andrew Golis, member. Of course, I'm not you, but you really should be aware that you have been branded this way by many elsewhere in the blogosphere after the big influx of bloggers with your new system They took over the website brand, and management just let it happen, and it is the website brand now according to many comments I have seen elsewhere.
It's not just the blogs, I have been struck by how many of Greg Sargent threads simply ignore the topic after a few comments and go into Hillary-hating group meeting mode, with reaffirmation after reaffirmation.
I am an Obama supporter but I am interested in politics, and a site specializing in Hillary hating is not at the top of my list, sorry. Many of the Hillary obsessed are going to continue until she leaves public life, so the nomination of Obama is not a solution to the problem of attracting this audience.
May 28, 2008 4:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think you're consistently confusing the reader discussions with the content created in house. We don't censor reader contributions, so with the exception of posts like mine pushing back on particular dumbness, the community will be what it decides to be.
If you don't like the reader posts, I think there are a few things to do:
1. recommend good posts.
2. write good posts.
3. ignore them and read the vast majority of the content.
I'm hoping to encourage folks to do 1 and 2.
May 28, 2008 4:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Kudos! (and good luck!)
May 28, 2008 7:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think more needs to be done here, Andrew. It sounds so convivial and idealistic to call the readers a community. But if more isn't done by management to provide the sort of structure that makes a real community possible, you eventually just get a mob. Over time, bad content drives out good. Pretty soon, the Reader Posts section will just resemble the comments sections on tabloid sites like Huffington Post, 600 or 700 one-line fragments of barking idiocy.
I'm particularly concerned about the effect of the reader generated posts on the in-house content, apart from whatever changes should be made to the Reader Posts section. It strikes me that the in-house side of the site is at risk, and the number of comments on Book Club posts and other non-election posts is shrinking, because the site is being swamped by the pure political junkie community being steered in from TPM EC. I'd like to see the reader generated content and the in house TPM Cafe content separated out into separate sites. When I'm in the mood to get into it over elections and political fights, I could visit one site, and when I am in the mood for more elevated discussion on issues and ideas, I could visit the other site. Maybe then you could then start to rebuild the Cafe community, and reverse the diaspora.
If things keep going the way they are going, soon Todd Gitlin and William Hartung are going to find that there is nobody left who is interested in commenting on their posts. It was somewhat embarrassing that old friend Matthew Yglesias could find so few people here who were interested in discussing his new book.
May 28, 2008 8:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes. There are some comments on TPM which are really worthwhile, and there needs to be a distinction between the 'low' and 'high' brow stuff. I enjoy reading short, snappy and witty threads about Clinton, or Election-related threads on VP (I think this contributes in large part to what TPM is all about) - but then I really prefer policy suggestions/discussions, or slightly more intense theoretical point made in more elaborate, considered posts.
Ultimately though, this division that you suggest shouldn't be properly contemplated until possibly the entire election season has died down. The end of the primaries will go a long way to re-establishing the balance here, and post-November will be a good time to step back and then re-evaluate, rather than doing so in the midsts of a heated election season.
May 28, 2008 9:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
Your points are well taken, Dan K. And some of us could see this happening - including all the dangers you mention - within days of the "new Cafe" back in Feb.
We were at times considered nay-sayers and complainers but what you write is a big concern and your points are well taken.
TPM was, except for EC, a site of "discussion" and basically a calm place. I still value the reporting. But am dismayed at the chaos.
Inner peace is called for. "Insight Meditation." I'm not kidding! It begins in our hearts. Peace. Calm reflection. Because retaliatory mobs do not make for reflection and wisdom.
That's what I meant above about "good luck." I applaud Andrew's finally turning his own personal attention to this matter. But boy... good luck, Andrew!
May 29, 2008 11:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
I, for one, am getting better at clicking on a post, scanning it, and if it's flamey I go back to the list. Move on, folks, nothing to see here...
May 28, 2008 10:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
The problem, Andrew, is that she just won't stop making us MORE angry.
May 28, 2008 4:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Have a drink, take a deep breath, and move on.
May 28, 2008 4:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Do you ever read TPM EC?
If you don't want people discussing the primaries, stop posting news related to the primaries. Seriously. Just today there are four or five news items straight from or about Camp Hillary.
I can see where you're coming from and why you don't like the incessant Hillary bashing. But you can't feed the frenzy and simultaneously complain that there is, in fact, a frenzy. (Well, you can, but it leads nowhere.)
May 28, 2008 4:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, but you see, those are NEWS and have NEW information. Also, the proportion of our HRC reporting (see Muck, the front page, analysis and opinion at Cafe) to other things is drastically different than in these discussion areas.
May 28, 2008 5:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Exactly, it's NEWS. Which is why folks get pissed off ANEW under the onslaught of freshly shoveled BS.
What you are really arguing for is shorter nomination process (and I'm with you on that). A nomination process that takes this long will always end up like this. I see no way around that.
May 28, 2008 5:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
That's really it. Clinton continues to fight, and so Obama's supporters are forced to continue to fight as well. If we Obama supporters were to somehow let this slip away in the final minutes and let in a Hillary miracle buzzer beater, because we grew complacent and stopped playing defense, we would never, ever, ever be able to forgive ourselves. So until she quits the battle goes on.
A couple of weeks ago, there was a vague message floating about in the media that the Clintons were just going to stay in until June 3rd, for the sake of honor and dignity, but were scaling down and beginning to pack it in. But that turns out not to have been true. She is still out there battling hard every day, disparaging Obama's candidacy and chances, working the refs on Michigan and Florida, etc. What are we supposed to do, just lie down and let her walk all over our guy?
May 28, 2008 7:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Exactly.
May 29, 2008 8:32 AM | Reply | Permalink
Ahh, I see, you don't want to know about the things that you don't like. If TPM tells you whatever insanity there is in the world, that means they are trying to upset you.
This is a classic "if you can't take the heat" moment. I'm for Obama, and I want to know what Hillary's saying. I'm beginning to be horrified by Hillary's antics, and sometimes I even find it kind of funny in a painful and sick way. And most of the time I don't get mad anymore; I file it away in case someone wants to hear it later.
This isn't an Obama-centric site, no matter how many Obama supporters congregate here. If you want Obama-centric, I hear DailyKos is the place to be.
May 28, 2008 10:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hey! Give credit where credit is due!
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/05/hillarys-concession-speech-pla.php
May 28, 2008 4:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Okay Dad...but can we still bash McCain? How about Lieberman?
May 28, 2008 4:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
I know that the reason I have trouble laying off of Hillary is the sense of betrayal - she was one of the good guys (gender neutral "guys") but then it changed...
May 28, 2008 4:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't think there's anything wrong w/ folks feeling betrayed, or generally being frustrated and upset with Clinton. I've had my moments, for sure.
But at a certain point I think folks need to just accept what's happened and start to talk about something else. For the good of the progressive movement (Obama's people can't live in a PTSD state forever) and for the sake of this community being an interesting place to exchange ideas.
May 28, 2008 4:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Agreed. Seriously.
May 28, 2008 4:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
Andrew, when this is all over, we'll all look back on this time and vomit.
May 28, 2008 5:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama's people can't live in a PTSD state forever
wow, that's an ugly and generalizing statement.
May 28, 2008 5:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh come on, take it easy. I'm not saying "all obama people" are anything. Conversations like this are really boring if people are just looking for reasons to be offended.
May 28, 2008 5:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm not looking for a reason to be offended. I'm taking it easy. No worries.
I am calling you out on your snarky generalization, because you're snarking on the people you are trying to influence.
Otherwise, I agree with you. More often than not I stay away from reader posts for the reasons you state.
I think I recall you writing about how hard snark is to pull off, and is better left off a comment or post. Atleast it was in one of your recent threads.
May 28, 2008 6:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's a puzzling comment anyway. We're not in the "post-trauma" stage yet. The primary campaign is, regrettably, still going on.
Believe me, I'm exhausted and can't wait until this thing is over. But I don't feel I can afford to check into the PTSD center yet, while the battle is still going on and my side is still taking fire.
I've been hearing several versions of this same argument from Clinton people for a few weeks now. The Clinton forces want to reserve the right to keep fighting, but demand that Obama supporters stop, because when we fight back it hurts their feelings. The healing can begin once Clinton suspends her campaign. If Clinton supporters really want that process to begin now, they should pound out an email to the Clinton campaign and tell them to stop.
May 28, 2008 8:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
I am not asking Obama supporters to stop fighting. I am asking them to stop hating. There is a difference between opposing someone and hating them. Some Obama supporters do not know that.
I prefer Clinton to Obama, but I certainly don't hate him. In fact, I like him and if I didn't think she would make a far better president, I would support him. If he wins, I will vote for him without holding my nose.
I have misgivings about him. Very serious ones. I am troubled by how conservative he is and how unambitious his policies are, particularly in contrast to his rhetoric. You could argue that his nomination is the true death of liberalism - since he has not argued a liberal agenda at all for the nomination. His rationale for being elected is all about "changing politics" but not with specifics.
I also have qualms about his open religiosity. I know I won't get to vote for an atheist for president in my life time, but I am not happy about someone who argues for increasing the presence of religion in politics and says having to say the pledge of allegiance, etc. never hurt anybody. Obama has expressed opinions about atheists that offend me. However, that's a given. I accept it. I don't hate him for it.
The thing is....I have many reasons to oppose Obama and yet still manage not to hate him. Now, if I wanted to I could obsess about his "you're nice enough" comment or rail against his arrogance in running for the presidency during his first Senate term...mainly based on the media reaction to one speech. If I obsessed on it, I suppose I could work up a good hate, but that's counter-productive.
May 29, 2008 6:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
Haha...okay, now it's time to roll out the necessary West Wing reference:
Andrew, you've descended into LemonLyman.com. Once you get these folks riled up, there's no stopping them. It's like Lord of the Flies in here. Watch out or all the anti-Hillary folks will just start fixating on you, instead.
Seriously, though, I'm behind you. If you leave the site for a week and come back it's a little unsettling because the main page is all new, and the cafe NEVER CHANGES.
I haven't complained because, then, I'd like have to, um, POST something different, and I just, like, don't have the time? But if YOU'RE complaining, I'll back you up :)
May 28, 2008 10:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
And for those of you who didn't know, I had Hobbes FIRST. BLEH.
May 28, 2008 10:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Andrew, I guess it depends on what personally bores you. I'm bored by and will therefore gladly skip reading the "stop talking about Hillary" posts, if you'll skip the posts where we keep airing our thoughts on the topic.
There are obviously people with a great deal left to say about Hillary -- and Hillary and company fuel this fire daily. When she stops fanning the flames , the fire will die. Until then, people WILL react.
May 29, 2008 2:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's not PTSD. The trauma isn't over, it's ongoing.
Look at it this way, Andrew - it's going to be over by November :)
Well, unless some kind of repeat of 2000 happens. In that case, it might take a bit longer.
May 28, 2008 5:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Andrew, you say: "But at a certain point I think folks need to just accept what's happened and start to talk about something else."
Problem is, it isn't "what's happened", it is what is happening. Now.
It's a bit premature to be accepting and moving on. If what she is doing is newsworthy enough to be reported here, surely we're allowed to take it seriously too, enough to comment about it.
May 28, 2008 6:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
A fair point...
May 28, 2008 7:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Let me try ..... If I have to listen to grumpy old McJohn McLame prattle on like a fascist lite Grampa Simpson for four actual years I might not make it. America will not make it. The World will not make it. Gimme the skinny kid.
May 29, 2008 1:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
We'll go away when she goes away.
May 28, 2008 4:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
You bastards!!
LEAVE HILLARY ALOOOOOOOOOOOONE!!!!!!!!!!!
May 28, 2008 5:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Charming Lamont.
May 28, 2008 5:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
They can't stop. They hate her more than they like Obama. They're doing more to hurt Obama's campaign than she is.
OK, maybe not more, but really, guys, you're making me look bad.
May 28, 2008 10:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
I actually thought it was funny. But what the hell do I know? I have PTSD apparently, after all.
May 29, 2008 1:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think that the Hillary bashing will quit the day after she makes a gracious concession speach. When do you think that will happen?
May 28, 2008 5:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Soon. She is not crazy. She or Edwards should be VP. I am serious to win this. They both help Barry a lot where he needs it. What if McLame takes Leiberman? Has anybody polled this stuff?
May 29, 2008 1:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
The VP choice has been polled. Edwards does best but claims he is not interested. I do not blame him. Webb polled almost as well and would make one hell of an attacke dog in the general.
PS I gave Hillary credit for not being insane several times in the process only to have her prove me wrong. I will wait for her to prove it this time.
May 29, 2008 3:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
On a more serious note, I think this fixation with Hillary has many deeply rooted causes, that actually are very interesting from a policy and political perspective. Her candidacy has raised the following issues:
1) sexism, or the lack thereof, in politics, and society
2) racism
3) entitlement, in the sense that we have moved into the deeply uncomfortable realm of family dynasties in power
4) electoral politics (how the DNC apportions delegates)
5) voting strategies (caucuses versus primaries)
6) fundraising, disclosure, and conflicts of interest
7)a palpable shift in the blue/red map as African American voters can really transform the southern vote--actually being empowered
8) integrity in the process--when can you bend the rules?
So, although it has been tiresome, I don't think it is all chitchat for naught. There have been some really raw and enlightening conversations about feminism, racism, and other issues. If Obama and Clinton were further apart on the issues, there would be more to debate there. I can't wait to see the real substantive discussions start once it's Obama v. McCain.
May 28, 2008 5:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Those discussions won't happen on TPM, not if its past history is anything to go by. The only Republicans on TPM have always been trolls and troublemakers. Sensible Republicans have been very, very rare. Not so surprising since TPM has never had what you could call a pro-Republican slant.
I would be happy to be wrong about this.
May 28, 2008 5:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, and those things have been hashed out over and over and over and over again on these pages.
I mean, there are still valuable things to be said on these topics, I'm sure. But I'm reading a lot of rehashing and short angry emotional posts that don't move discussion forward at all.
May 28, 2008 5:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh, come on, Andrew. Look at the current list of posts by Greg Sargent. It's like an invitation to engage in asinine conversation. I mean, do we really need to read about a Gallup poll that shows Hillary beating McCain by a wider margin than Obama at this point in the election cycle? I think not. Greg's one of the main instigators here. He seems to go out of his way...
May 28, 2008 5:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
I've got to say I agree - the bulk of the reporting at EC in the last couple of months has been what Hillary said, what Hillary is doing, what Hillary might do, how such and such piece of news will affect Hillary, etc. At least that is my impression. (And if it isn't, one of our usual trolls will be sure to drop in an OT comment to change the topic.)
Many of us have had pretty high expectations for Greg and Eric, based on past reporting, so it makes it just that much harder not to take the bait when they start to fall into White House Press Corps mode instead of applying a dispassionate, critical eye on the information they are forwarding to us.
Emotions are high, too - this isn't a baseball game with some of us rooting for one team and some for another. The stakes are real, and the consequences of the Democratic infighting might be paid for decades, just when we were experiencing real hope for the future.
That said, I do understand and share your frustration, Andrew, and look forward to the day when we are talking about other things! I just don't want those topics to have anything to do with McCain's nominations for the Supreme Court, or how many bombs we have dropped on Iran.
May 28, 2008 6:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, especially when the point is, for the Democratic Party, that both are beating McCain.
May 29, 2008 2:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
Kate, I wish we had more talk about that. Some threads touch on it, but usually peter out into flames. I'm particularly interested in the changing electoral map and the influence it'll have on the Democratic party. After all, they're excited to have a real fundraiser on their side, and will want to capitalize on that as much as possible.
Maybe sometime in July we can start having intelligent conversations about that.
May 28, 2008 10:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
I hope so too. I think emotions are running high, but these issues are below the surface.
May 28, 2008 11:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
I just want to let everybody know, for historical reference, that this was the day Audie Murphy died in a car crash.
I just automatically think of May 28 as Audie Death Day, in case that ever pops up in conversation and it seems inexplicable or inappropriate to you.
So don't freak out or make a big deal out of it if I bring it up.
May 28, 2008 5:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
You know, I was just about to post something about how tired I am of all of this, but it has a decidedly "tired of Hillary specifics" bent to it. So I shall resist in honor of your request. Although I am sad because I thought it was much needed humor in this regard. But, I do get you point. Besides we need to save up our energy for McClain bashing, and stopping Iran bashing, and speculative oil price bashing, and Republican VP whoever they may be bashing, and blogging, hoping, praying that Rove finally gets his from Congress bashing!
May 28, 2008 5:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Amen.
May 28, 2008 5:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
I for one will be so glad when this primary is over, because I finally won't have to put up with all the so called Democrats who have turned into haters ...
May 28, 2008 5:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Krugman is a douche bag and that opinion piece is a piece of shit based on