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Let's Obliterate Israel
I came accross this article on Huffpo. The responses seemed quite invective. I wonder what some of the folks here have to think about it? Both the article by Ginsburg and many of the responses.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/amb-marc-ginsberg/israel-at-60-how-about-th_b_100247.html
I should mention that I discovered TPM via Huffpo, and in reading many of the articles and posts here, I am glad to have found this little spot of web. Lots of wisdom to be sure.
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Comments (3)
Man, got to agree with you on that. I'm all for argument (some say I thrive on it) but there is this underlying current of anger/hate there - pretty much always.
I really think sometimes that they selectively accept/reject posts to keep fights going. I swear the only explanation for some rejections is that the posts were simply too peaceful - in the same thread where people are swearing at each other and calling each other racist/sexist and way worse.
One of the first times I came on this site, I read a comment from a lady describing how she was treated over there - and I remembered some of the exchanges she was involved with. I still disagreed with her - but it was nice to see her thoughts in a context where both her and the posters around her were not engaged in personally degrading warfare.
May 9, 2008 1:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
With the above in mind, I was reluctant to check out your link (I'm in a pretty decent mood) - but did anyhow.
#1 - I think that Mr. Ginsberg's article was rather beautiful and am very glad to have read it. I fully agree with most of what he said and feel awful that he had to deal with the responses that followed.
#2 - The responses are based on a common inability to differentiate between the state of Israel and the philosophy of Zionism. Ginsberg was speaking to the diverse nation, the commentary speaks to the philosophy most commonly projected on the nation by the powerful in America. I think this was probably best articulated by the comment "A Zionist is a wealthy New Yorker who pays someone else to live in Israel."
I personally feel that the philosophy of Zionism is no different than that of Nazism. It explicitly states that Israel is a Jewish nation where Jews are the only ones permitted true citizenship and full rights. The philosophy has been dominating in Israel, but it is far from universally accepted if you actually browse some of their local media. So I share some of the feelings expressed, but feel they were horribly misplaced.
It is difficult to blame them (the posters) though. We live in a nation where one of the candidates for president can't differentiate between Shiite and Sunni Muslims (despite being at war with both) and the sitting vice president insists to this day that Al-Qaeda was in Iraq before we invaded. Can we really blame them for not knowing their ass from a hole in the ground?
In this case, it wouldn't be convenient for the government (ours) to note the difference between Israel and Zionists. Our entire case against Iran is based on their president threatening to wipe out Israel. If anyone picks up on the nuance of the language, his statements could be interpreted in a couple of different ways. Him calling for the end of the "Zionist Entity" could *maybe* be seen as the equivalent to Americans calling for the end of neoconservative domination.
I think you can see the slippery slope there.
So as a result, the government stirs up a little true antisemitism - but it's a small price to pay for a new expensive war ... right?
It's obviously more complex than that - but that's my quick take (sorry in advance for any typos).
May 9, 2008 2:17 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks kgb99, nice thoughts.
I would say we differentiate in the sense that I would not equate Zionism and Nazism. Yes there are legitimate comparatives, certainly Hanna Arendt pointed out a few and became persona non grata in the process, despite the fact that she was an ardent zionist.
I will further state that I belive Israel does have a right to exist. Not because "God" says so in the bible. But how man has responded to war over time.
There are a large number of people that do not realize that zionism, prior to the Shoah, was not all that popular. I think that we all to often pularise Jews and that is a mistake. We do the same today regarding Christains in my humble opinion.
To me when I read Ginsberg, but think Golda Meir and her famous "There are no Palestinians" remarks I shutter, the hypocrisy is beyond the pale. To not even be able to recognize the fact that 93% of an entire nation is built on stolen land is incredible.
If Israel wants to be seen as a legitimate nation. A nation that is truly a democracy, a nation that shares western values, then the onus is on them to show it.
May 9, 2008 2:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
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