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I'm Done

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Some of you who follow TPM closely know that I have supported Sen. Clinton for the Democratic Party nomination.  I have made a dedicated effort on her behalf, in the sincere belief that in spite of her accompanying and even obvious disadvantages, she would on balance make the better President among the remaining candidates. I  believe that now.  Millions of others believe that with me - just not quite enough, in the final analysis.

Now is the time and here is the place to end it. There is no acceptable way left to get there from here.  Last night tipped all of us over a divide on the risk/reward scale. To soldier forward in  the face of this latest concrete evidence holds a certain romantic appeal to which I am as temperamentally inclined as anyone, but finally - no.  I could evaluate the numbers and produce a mathmatical "answer", but it's not about numbers. You  just get a feeling. Day before yesterday, my feeling said, "Maybe?" Today, it says, "No."  It's that simple.

Let me congratulate all the Democratic candidates for their participation in this dramatic and historic event. We have broken new ground. With a lot of hard work (and just a little bit of luck), we have a respectable chance of carrying this revolution all the way to the White House.

To those who have been with Sen. Obama all along, you got  it right, so far. So far. My sincere congratulations to all of you as well. You've earned an honest triumph. It's your game to win or lose now. Get to work, and Good Luck.

To those who weren't with Sen. Obama, give him a fair chance and the honest benefit of the doubt. He has successfully completed arguably the most historic and perhaps the most improbable primary campaign in history.
He vanquished the legend of modern Democratic politics in a fair fight. Whatever the perceived defects that kept you from him in  the first instance, it's clear he is enormouly gifted. He must be doing something right. Try to put aside your differences, and understand what that is.

Best wishes and best of luck to you all.















Comments (165)

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Hear, hear.

Now, I do think Clinton will continue - but it's not going to be pretty. I also think she's going to stow the attack ads.

It's time to put our party back together.

Finally, A graceful concession! Kudos to you and your reasoning.

Very classy.

Though when you said "It's your game to win or lose now", based upon your comments "It's Our game..."

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A dignified and graceful post. I, for one, certainly hope you'll remain an active member of the TPM community - we've got a general election to follow, which should be at least as fascinating as the primary.

We've got a general election to lead...

Thank you onew, for your heartfelt post. We can come together and wrestle our country back from the disastrous policies of the republicans. Our candidates are not far apart on the policy issues. I am hoping that others will see that as well, as we carry the Democratic message forward to the White House. Your post increases that optimism. :)


Ditto! ♪♪♪

Gracious and intelligent comment. Highly recommended.

I am excited to see Hillary's most passionate (and loquacious) defenders join the Obama effort as the primary season winds down. All of us working together can defeat McCain in the fall.

Then we have a chance at delivering on the soaring rhetoric that Hillary's folks couldn't seem to buy during the primary season - but only if we can use this newfound passion to force Congress and Obama to actually deliver. I have no problem holding everyone accountable to this new American Dream, Obama most of all.

No leader gets a free ride in America anymore - from the boardroom to the cloakroom.

If we can cement this governing majority that is coalescing around Barack, I truly believe we can change this country in some very fundamental ways and use the web to multiply our effects a thousand fold.

We live in exciting times!

Here's to rallying around the party and figuring out how to beat McCain in the fall.

How about this as a new chant, combining the best of both candidates:

Yes, We Will!

What a very gracious post.

Thank you for that. I think this will pass - the bitterness - I hope. I do feel badly for those women who thought this was their last chance - I don't think it is - we'll have a woman now. Hillary brought us that much closer to it and I know we will.

I hope I live to see it - I have a enough administrations left in me that I think I'll see it and we all will.

Thanks again for such a really lovely and grown up post.

Texas. Just saying goodbye. Heading back to HuffPo where I have to be a nice guy. Nice to have met you. Good luck with your recovery process. I know how hard that deal is....

Thanks - but not necessary.

Dude, I've been sober for 20 years and I live with booze. My husband drinks. I cook with it. I have it in my house in Taos where I'm alone 3/4s of the time.

I don't mean to be cocky about it, and I appreciate your good words, but -

I'm ok. Believe me. I skipped AA altogether, made a deal with myself and kept it because by the time I quit I really hated drinking. Just hated it.

Not everyone is so lucky. Texas ! Don't stay in a clique. Invite new people into the process!

If I could figure out how to tap that reserve in me, I wouldn't have one bad habit.

Unfortunately it only works when you reach a point where you absolutely hate your life and I did - I hated myself, I hated booze, I hated the whole thing and all I wanted to do was to change it.


And if I ever get tempted - and I honestly don't much - occasionally when I pour the rest of a bottle of wine down the drain after I've used a bit to cook with, I think it smells good (whisky makes me sick). But then I remember how very much I hate the whole thing.

it's kept me happy for 20 years. I only got happy when I quit. I know that. So far, no problem with staying off.

I have someone in the family who has had a very hard time with a drub habit. Went through a fortune. Met her husband inside a clinic. They've made a life, a wonderful one. But I worry about them.

And yikes, one of them is a Clinton state delegate. Tough day for him.

Texas. I watched this board from afar for some times. You know, all the new girls and ladies want you to talk to them. The insider thing hurts TPM. You're the emotional glue at this place. I say open your arms.

Jeez, honey - if I knew who the new girls were, I'd be happy to.

There's plenty of love to go around - not like it's finite quality.

Thank you for the nice words. I'll try to tone down the bitchy.

You know, Blue Man, you keep talking about the insider thing, and speaking as a newcomer, I just don't see it. You have to earn respect a little, sure, and it's easy for good stories to drop off the list, but I think there are technical solutions to that more than cultural ones. There's a strong community, but, from what I've experienced, the barrier to entry is low.

Excellent post, however don't go away, take some time, get some rest and come back and make sure we do win in November.

Very nice.

Now, we can take down that flip-flopping war monger Pat Robertson-Hagee-pandering vampire McSame. The guy's a volcano ready to explode like he did when asked about his consideration of joining Kerry's ticket in 2004 by the NYT. He is bound to flip out in public during this race and show what a freak he really is. He can't keep his cool that long. He just can't.

With 24% voting against him in NC just like he voted against George W. Bush in 2000, I'm betting more R's will flip and vote D much to the chagrin of that fat idiot Rush Limbaugh.

Bill Maher made a great point when he talked about what an amazing contrast it will be the first time McCain and Obama are on the same stage: he's going to look his age and will be outgunned.

Once more I'd like to direct anyone who hasn't read Frank Rich's take on how the Republicans really have no answer to Barack Obama: "Who's Afraid of Barack Obama," December 2, 2007:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/02/opinion/02rich.html


Okay, weird. My avatar, not my post.

Nonetheless, a wonderful concession. I only hope Hillary will do the same.

If you've gotten mysterious harassment or unsolicited attacks from gotalife, readytoblowagasket, louisville1975 and others, it might because you share my avatar. It's sort of a virtual fashion faux pas.

Thank you for this eloquent and generous post.

I hope after time, you can be as excited about Barack Obama as I am...or as excited as you were about Hillary.

I have never felt this good about a political candidate in my life. I hope many more people will share this same feeling of optimism and elation in the months to come.

Better than the dying/dead Emperor McSame sitting on his worthless throne directing the Imperium of Man to further worthless wars, I'd say.

Great article! I urge TPM readers to glance it over. TPM is not lacking when it comes to vitrol (I have been guilty of that on many occasions), but it has been said many times that this site was among the more civilized. Let us all try to steer the conversation back in that direction.

Great post.

I think that at the edges, supporters on both sides have been nasty. Even some of us who try to be reasonable have gotten caught up in the process. Healing the party is going to happen from the bottom up. We can't wait just wait for the perfect statement from our candidate.

Thanks for reaching out. It restores my faith in the process.

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I'm with you one_wilson. I've been a strong supporter as well, but last night was the end.

Congrats to Sen. Obama and his supporters.

AR,
This post and your comment here feels like a great weight lifted. We can, as democrats, take on the challenge. What is the alternative really? Our county, as we know and love it, is in great peril if McCain gets elected. Here's to democratic unity on 08!

Wow! Even thou, AR? One_Wilson alone was a big deal to me, but seeing you both makes me, well, if you'll pardon the expression, hopeful. More so than I was already. Thanks.

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It is what it is. I had hoped for a different outcome, but it's time to let that go. I won't ever buy this whole "new politics" thing, but Obama sure is a good candidate other than that.

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Thank you so much for your post. I admit that there have been times when I lost my temper, but from here on out, let's play nice with our fellow democrats. I hope that after you've had a chance to rest, that you'll come back and help us get a democrat elected to the White House. We surely can't afford another Bush term---and worse than that perhaps is the life times of the supreme court judges McCain would appoint. One of Bush's supreme court justices said in the last few days that "torture isn't punishment" and John McCain said that he was committed to appoint more judges just like that. We could lose America as we have known it if we lose this race. Therefore, we cannot lose. And to win, we must all stand together. Thank you for your blog. It inspires more of us to be more kind and more generous. I am grateful for the change it made in me.

Yes we must as they say in Bible times come out as one man now and WIN this thing!!!

Thank you for this. Very well said.

I admit I have lost my cool on more than one occasion throughout this primary season (hell, who hasn't?), but you're right: now is the time to start coming together.

Hillary Clinton will go down in history as the most important woman in politics in the late 20th/early 21st century. That's not too bad a legacy if you ask me.

Thank you for your gracious post and generosity of spirit.

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He vanquished the legend of modern Democratic politics in a fair fight.

In the end he vanquished no such thing, and it wasn't fair, one_wilson.

Indiana was rigged. According to locals, it could not have been close for a number of compelling reasons.

I truly hope Obama's people aren't behind the results in Lake County.

I'm confused by your source... a strange, bearded man reporting on a "comical" blog? Zuh?

Anyway, you're not convincing me.

But what is apparently getting swept under the rug are the 1.3 million or so names being removed from the rolls in IN. Weren't there supposed to be about 2.3 million coming out to vote yesterday?

But there has not ever been an election that some sort of fraudy shennanigans threaten a fair fight. It's never 100% fair. I think one_wilson's sentiment is he's admitting Obama played fair.

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See below for more thoughts about this.

RTB,

Just as much could be said for the Operation Chaos, which the exit polls showed hard evidence of. You can reach for your conspiracy theories (ie Bill sees voter intimidation in NV), by why? Will it change the dynamic? Or just bring the dems down further?

The truth is Illinois Obama headquarters had an enormous effort. Canvassers by the busload came in vote drives. Obama's organizational website, just ask Genghis, easily sets up contacts/groups to do just this sort of organizing/carpooling/canvassing. Especially in the northern areas that were easy to reach on a day trip.

Please, aren't you sick of the fight? Obama erased her PA results with NC last night. No matter how you slice it, IN was not a big win for her by any metric. Please, just let it go.

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Just as much could be said for the Operation Chaos, which the exit polls showed hard evidence of.

You misunderstand me, mageduley. I think the Republicans did meddle in the Dem nomination. Just not in the way you think they did.

Republican fingerprints are all over Indiana (conservative Bruce Fein thinks so, among others): voter ID law, manipulated voter rolls, paperless ballots.

No one doubts that the voter ID law is a Republican crooked crock, but are you saying that it and other tactics were used by Republicans to try to manipulate a win for Obama?

You got that paranoid fantasy, and Obamamaniacs have had the "Operation Chaos" fear.

Eleven percent of the voters in Indiana were Republicans. 50-something voted for Clinton, 40-something voted for Obama. Percentages nearly matched the overall outcome. No matter who was manipulating what for what reason, it had no real effect.

So how did Republicans damage Clinton in Indiana? Why? What's your insinuation here?

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Please do me a favor and read my links first before you ask me a million questions, Bat Guano. Thanks.

It's three questions, actually.

I'll try to shorten it to one: How have the Republicans manipulated Indiana, and why?

Okay, it's a two-part question...

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I agree. Your candidate has won.

Though she will try to clear her campaign debt and play on through Kentucky using a unity against McCain theme, over the next several months Clinton will do her part to unify the party. If she does so, the least the Obama supporters can do is not blame her when he loses somewhere between Dukakis and McGovern.

Clinton is done. Any media talk about her running in 2012 is nonsense. Whoever wins this time will be reelected easily. Not all most most of The Perfect Storm of negative events, unpopular war, housing/debt/banking crisis, high energy prices, fears of recession, falling employment will almost certainly be gone. Any president will look like Einstein, Lincoln and Washington combined after 8 years of a president competing with Buchanan for the second-worst-in- history title. Anyway, no one will support her if she does run.

And she'll be too old to run against McCain's VP in 2016.

That's cynical.

The best thing to do is get behind Obama.

Give it a couple of days.

:)

Wow man.

Run with that.

Maybe start a website. You and Weaver could start an even better one

www.TheElectionObamaStoleFromClinton.com

or something.

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Wow. You're a class act all the way, Elliottness!

If the Republicans rigged the Dem nomination, then you'll be a lot more surprised when McCain gets elected in November than I will be.

Lemme guess that you've also spent a fair amount of time ruminating over the "hidden story" behind the collapse of world trade center building 7...?

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Non sequitur much?

Have I provided backup for what I think?

Come on, rtbag. You're getting into tinfoil hat territory here. I respect what Bev Harris does, but BBV is simply pointing to a possible voting irregularity. It could very well be true, but it doesn't indicate clearly any tampering to benefit either side. The other site, which you describe in your link as "locals", is an anecdotal account from one person. Please, you're better than this.

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No, you come on, DF. The vote results were withheld in Lake County. That's good old-fashioned fraud.

Bev and BBV is full-tilt CT hackery for there own CT cottage industry ends. If you are hanging your hat on BBV, you are headed down the path of WT7 crappola.

I disagree. Bev Harris has turned up some rock-solid dirt on electronic tabulation flaws. She doggedly pursued the issue with ex-California Secretary of State Kevin Shelley. He didn't listen and we voted him out. Debra Bowen was elected on a promise to thoroughly review these machines. She got Cal to give them the old thrice over and they were found to be completely faulty, just like Bev Harris had demonstrated.

I give it up to Bev because she's not a programmer, and yet she understands something that I have a hell of a time getting non-programmers to understand. Comparing what she does to 9/11 truthers is ridiculous.

RTBAG,

The other day you promised me, we would have fun again soon.

I assume this is it?

Somehow, I expected more...


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No, this isn't what I meant by "fun." It has to be a spontaneous choreography between the two of us. Like a dance. I'm not going to do all the work by myself, clearthinker. ;-)

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Did you watch John King last night, DF?

No, I don't want generally watch cable news. Do you have proof of anything or do you simply have specious allegations?

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To review the facts as I watched them unfold on CNN last night:

The vote results from Lake County IN were delayed by about 5 hours. The rest of the state (except for one tiny rural county) had released their totals. Lake County is the second-largest in IN.

The mayor of Gary said the Lake County totals were "held up" because absentee ballots were being counted manually, and the county would not release their vote totals until they had counted the absentees too. No one knows why, as this was not the procedure the rest of the state followed.

According to Jeffrey Toobin (a lawyer), withholding the vote totals is "suspicious" and a "disgrace," and opens the county to suspicion of foul play. Toobin wasn't the only one on CNN who started to freak out about it. John King did too.

As it turns out, Lake County has a well-known history of corrupt politics and vote fraud.

I'm not making shit up. Here's an article about it from the AP. And this is what I saw on CNN:

But as the clock ticked, the questions and accusations grew louder: What was wrong in Lake County? Was this more politics as usual in a county often suspected of harboring Chicago-style corruption?

A day after Clinton eked out a narrow victory in the primary, no one raised allegations of illegal activity. But some say old-school politics were certainly at play in the state's second-largest county, at the southern tip of Lake Michigan.

"They wanted to put Barack Obama over the top with Lake County's vote and games were being played like in the 1950s," said Hammond Mayor Thomas McDermott, who endorsed Clinton. "It went bad when a lot of people were watching."

The late returns came in a primary that attracted record voter turnout across the state. Many counties ran short of Democratic ballots and had to print extras, which had to be counted by hand. In Lake County alone, voters cast 11,500 early ballots — about three times the number cast in the 2004 primary.

Other counties, including Marion, the state's most populous and home of Indianapolis, also saw record turnouts. But those results were posted hours earlier.

The delay, combined with Lake County's history of fraud and corruption at the polls, set tongues wagging.

McDermott and Gary Mayor Rudy Clay — both Democrats who lead the county's two largest cities — sniped at each other in appearances on CNN early Wednesday, with McDermott challenging Clay on why machine totals weren't available earlier.

Not specious, DF! But before you shoot off accusations of speciousness, I recommend you do a little Googling about it yourself. Thanks!

1. apparently good or right though lacking real merit; superficially pleasing or plausible: specious arguments.

This is the very definition of specious. You have made allegations. There is the appearance of impropriety. This has raised suspicions. This is all well and good, but is there any proof of misconduct?

Occam's razor can and should be applied here.

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DF,

Yes, the "misconduct" is in withholding the vote totals. That happens to be misconduct in a democratic election, DF. It is enough to trigger an investigation.

That's all I know; I'm not claiming to know anything more than that. I think you are misreading my emphasis, but I don't know how to dial down that emphasis. I don't know which quote of mine you started with, or which quote you find hyperbolic. I'm reporting something I learned about the primary in Indiana. The accusations originated on CNN, not with me. I guess I failed to make that clear? I've been trying to be clear while responding to 7 or 8 different people, so please forgive me if I fucked that up. I can barely keep up with all of you. There is just one of me, after all.

I use Webster's, btw:

2: having deceptive attraction or allure
3: having a false look of truth or genuineness : sophistic

So, to me hyperbole means:

: extravagant exaggeration (as “mile-high ice-cream cones”)

So what have I said that's extravagant exaggeration? Again, I think you are misreading my emphasis.

Well, your initial salvo was over-the-top, but I can see that you've since acknowledged that.

Let's be clear though about how we're using the word misconduct. Are we talking about what the Brits would call a cock-up or are we talking about a nefarious act? There's a world of difference here.

If they failed to follow protocol, then this should be investigated. I'm a huge proponent of having a paper ballot for every vote for precisely this reason. Optical scanners are fine with me. They expedite the process, but can still be hand audited if something is amiss. However, systems like Diebold's GEMS central tabulation system should be outlawed. I'm not familiar enough with Lake County's voting infrastructure to know what sort of equipment was at play in these precincts, but if there is a paper trail then all that should be necessary to remove any appearance of malicious intent is to audit the totals.

Unfortunately, if there is no paper trail then it really doesn't matter how crazy it looks. There's no way to know what did or didn't happen without someone blowing a whistle, assuming that it was anything more than run-of-the-mill incompetence.

NO Man it was Rushlimbaugh!!!

This, I think, mirrors the sentiment of a great many Hillary supporters at this point - the rational, thoughtful and true-blue ones. The ones that aren't willing to throw away democracy for a figurehead.

We need you now more than ever!

Thanks.

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Wilson.....your delusional. Sleep on it and think about it.....it ain't over by a long shot

You Are

Chris - you are the one who is delusional.

Gonna pony up to help fund her campaign now that she has loaned it 11.4 Million?

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I have solidly every month. Thanks.

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And, some of us will still be in the party long after you've had your little flirtation with Democratic Politics. Some, have not only conviction of ideas but conviction of action as well.

Is your small d dick bigger than use lowly Democrats who are precinct committee people for some time now?

Shove your "I'm more of a Democrat" because I back a different Dem candidate hoo-haw.

McCain trolls for McCain!

Very good post. We await the mood of other TPM Clintonites. Not to gloat (well, give us a day) but to see if the fight goes on for the Clinton cause.

As I have said all along, I will support the Democratic candidate, whoever it is. I was hoping it would be Senator Clinton as I feel, like millions of others, that she is the better qualified and prepared candidate. However, at this point it looks like Senator Obama will in fact win the nomination and I will support him, just as I have done for the Democratic candidate in '92, '96, '00 & '04, with my time, my money, and my energy.

Lets get this done.

So I suggest a starting donation of $19.92, in honor of the Clinton's.

Or someone could start a "campaign" on the barackobama.com website for "Hillary Supporters Uniting for the Good of the Party"... or something like that.

And in response and if the outcomes were reversed, I would be saying the same thing about supporting Clinton were she the nominee, because we cannot afford to have a Bush third term, and we basically support all the same policy goals and progressives, and as Democrats.

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I second the notion. Very gallant poster. Obama and HRC are formidable candidates and they have both fought a tough, an almost impossible fight. Fair is fair and Obama has yet to sell his soul or his personal morals for a win.

I have always maintained that I admire HRC for her fortitude and as much as I support Obama, he can learn a few tricks or two from HRC. She is a policy wonk and that is where Obama needs to get better. He is more visionary and he is able to think outside of the small box that is Washington-that is where HRC failed. I, like many Americans are saddened that HRC messed this up so badly that she has single-handedly made herself a liability. Obama cannot and should not add her to that ticket. She has made him a better candidate, but we cannot argue the fact that she has wounded him deeply for the general election.

Both candidates will continue with their quest, but I am betting that HRC finally got it and she will continue on with a more respectful tone towards her future Prez. I take her at her word that she and Bill will work fervently to reverse at least some of the damage that they have caused. Obama's team is not totally absolved of guilt either. It is my hope that Obama's camp will remain humble and not take any one particular state, vote nor delegate for granted. He needs to continue his 50 state strategy now more so than ever.

Every state needs to see and hear him and judge him on his merits, not the words of third parties. I am confident that he will prevail b/c although he is not perfect, he is a fine, honest, compassionate and visionary leader-someone who is fit to lead us in a world that has changed dramatically right before our eyes. The experience that HRC bragged about and that McCain will undoubtedly tote, will prove to be a hindrance in the end b/c it narrows our views of US and the world. The myopia is so severe that we have become incapable to thinking outside of the box. Obama is perfect for this new world of thought!

Great point about the 50 State Strategy.

I wonder if that is why Dean is holding the Super Delegates back. If the democratic primary goes to all 50 states, then the framework will have been laid for another 50 state romp for the general with Obama having just did it once and prepared the way. McCain isn't even close to being competitive in all 50 states.

If that was Obama's strategy (or if it was just a happy accident) they (or fate) are brilliant.

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This is an excellent comment- so many great points!
I believe the 50 state strategy will help dems more than anything. Everyone is getting the chance to see our presumptive nominee up close. And think of the increased voter registration! We'll be a great force to be reckoned with in November.
I, too have found much to admire in HRC, even with all the aspects of her I don't like. As a progressive, white, 50+ woman, I really hope to see a woman president someday, and at first I intended to vote for Hillary. But, over the last several months I've come to realize that she just isn't the right person to move us forward.
One last point- I've learned an important lesson from living in a small Oregon town for the last 15 years, in contrast to living in a large city. And that is, in a connected community, people of opposing views have to learn to get along in order to hold society together and make progress. I think that translates well into the state of our party right now (and our nation). Let's come together around our candidate and move forward. We all have some bridge-building to do.
And, heartfelt thanks to one_wilson!

Where in Oregon?

Tigard (on the border of Tualatin) here.

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Thanks One-wilson! Take some time to deal, then if you still wanna fight please volunteer. I know Obama will need all the he can get in the general. Yes We Can!

Nice post, but I doubt that Hillary is going to concede....

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I'll be surprised if she doesn't concede today.

A respectful and magnanimous post. Very gracious, thank you.

You make an excellent argument for remaining Clinton supporters to consider.

Barack Obama has now won the most improbable nomination battle in history. He is talented, intelligent and most importantly a person of his convictions.

Though the wounds are fresh, they will and need to be healed. A democrat in the White House is essential in this election cycle. And yes, I would have said the same had Obama lost.

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It's easy to be a gracious winner, and very hard to be a gracious loser. I wish I could say I would've reacted the same way had the tables been turned. It must've been very hard. Kudos.

Yep, it is time to leave this echo chamber.

It was a hell of a fight but America did not want a fighter and the Obama supporters proved they do not want unity with the Clinton supporters with their hate.

Obama starts out losing Florida, Michigan and half the Dems. I wish him and his supporters luck in getting them back.

Meanwhile, the problems keep piling up with no solutions and I fear for my country.

Anyhoo, they rolled the dice and hoped he can do something. So good luck with that.

Now, back to your regular echo chamber.

God bless America.

Courage!

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I know this echo chamber is obnoxious, gotalife, but maybe you'll stay and help me educate the unwashed masses here?

Think about it?

"Educate?" You haven't paid much attention to gotalife's posts, have you.

In a way, he has educated us.

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You haven't paid much attention to gotalife's posts, have you.

You're the one who hasn't paid attention to what gotalife has been saying all along, Bat Guano.

Yet you acknowledge the Republicans structured the voting laws in their favor in Indiana.

If you think Republicans are going to let a Democrat get elected president, you've learned nothing in the last two GEs, you've learned nothing from the lead-up to the Iraq war, you've learned nothing from Bush-Cheney siphoning off as much power to the executive branch as possible over 8 long years.

You may be unteachable.

I've been mostly self-educated in the time since I got my lil' degree.

I know the vileness of the Republicans in the Bush era.I know it's going to be a fight. I'm sure they'll be doing crooked shenanigans with votes. The past near-decade I've gone from Dem-voting independent to Democrat.

Let's agree to agree: The Bush era needs to end.

Also let's agree that either Clinton or Obama would face the shitstorm.

My point about "education" was that gotalife's posts have been empty arguments of a few lines, crazy predictions of massive damage to Obama by Clinton, and "unatributed quotes that come out of no where."

Is that the kind of voice you think the Democrats need for educational purposes?

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I think gotalife was posturing.

readytoblow, we have an unfinished conversation here:

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/05/poll_despite_hillary_gains_in.php

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I haven't forgotten, but thanks for the reminder, FreeBubba!

Ready, Ready, Ready....you will throw your lot in with a republican troll? Gotalife is no Hillary supporter as his Right Wing talking points have made abundantly clear. You, as a dedicated true blue Clinton supporter, should not make a deal with the dark side.

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lol! Don't worry, I haven't thrown my lot with the Republican trolls! But I admit gotalife grew on me. I don't want him/her to go away.

For evidence of my intent to forever battle the Republican dark side, see my comment below.

Don't leave! Who's going to provide the comic relief now...

Silly trolls.

I am not leaving.

I am going to watch in awe of Obama's leadership.

He has to actually lead now.

The talk is over.

"Yep, it is time to leave this echo chamber." - gotalife, May 7, 2008 11:11 AM

3... 2... 1...

"I am not leaving." - gotalife, May 7, 2008 3:01 PM

ROFLMAO

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I echo this sentiment completely, and am glad to add my voice to yours rather than post a separate thread.

Although I still think Hillary would have made a better candidate, the choice is now between Obama and McCain, and that is a choice I think we can almost all agree on.

Congrats to Obama supporters on a race well fought. Here's to hoping we don't screw this up [again] before November!

Thank you for your comment Foreigner, lets take our country back. :)

Wow, very dignified post one_wilson! Kudos to you, thanks.

Excellent post.

I agree with those looking on to November, in the hopes that we will all unify to support the party against McCain. My optimism tells me we will even though I worry that the intolerance and divisions that were uncovered throughout this often divisive campaign may linger.

Bronx girl. I'm heading out. Go eat some White Castle burgers for me. Go Yankees! Go Jay-lo!

Thanks - I'm sure that wasn't easy to write. It's posts like this that give me hope that everything is gonna be alright.

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Very gracious. And I respectfully ask that after some down time, you join with us to prevent George Bush Term 3!

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It's your game too. This is still your country and McCain is not going to improve it. Take a vacation, get some perspective, then get out there and fight with us.

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Nice post from a respected voice. Any tips for Obama supporters to deal with (non-troll) HRC supporters pre and post her decision to end it? Any olive branch ideas appreciated.

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Using Slate's delegate calculator. I gave Clinton %60 in every remaining contest and seated Florida and Michigan at %70 for Clinton. That yielded a tie in pledged delegates. Maybe there's some detail that I'm missing by just toying with the calculator, but it now seems virtually impossible, even if the Michigan and Florida delegates get seated for Clinton to gain the lead in pledged delegates.

Thank you for facing that reality. It is time to take the fight to neocon John. Hillary and her supporters have demonstrated a lot of fight in this primary. You guys have driven me nuts on numerous occasions. I can't wait to see you driving the Reps nuts.

Clinton supporters like one_wilson would have made it easy to support Hillary if she were the nominee.

Clinton supporters like gotalife poison the environment for everyone. They stand in the way of unity.

Thanks one_wilson. I know how tough it is to be on that side of a nomination contest. You're the epitome of class.

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"It's your game to win or lose now. Get to work, and Good Luck."

This really bothers me. I have witnessed and I understand some of the bad feelings between Obama supporters and Clinton supporters, but let's be clear -- It is the Democratic Party's game to win or lose now! It is us against Bush/McCain. Let's not lose sight of what we are ALL working for in this election.

I would not have been thrilled to go to the polls in November and cast my vote for Hillary, but you'd better believe that I would have done it and I would have tried to convince everyone I know to do it. The stakes are too high for us to risk losing this election over hurt feelings and a split party. I, personally, never engaged in bashing Hillary's supporters, but I sincerely apologize for those who did.

I hope that all of Hillary's supporters will rally behind the Democratic ticket. Never has the Democratic cause and our vote been more important.


One_Wilson, you're pure class. While I wasn't a Hillary fan for a while now, I understand how truly disappointing it is when you're with her all that time and see it slip away.

Thanks for writing something nice while you're still in that emotional space, and thanks to the great majority of Clinton supporters who were voting positively for her and not negatively against him.

one_wilson,

You also argued your convictions with class when they were in defense of Senator Clinton. If more of the Senator's supporters will follow your example we will truly be in good shape and be able to start taking this country back.

Ironically, in the end we owe Hillary a debt of gratitude. If you can beat a Clinton, you can beat anyone. To say she has been Obama's marathon initiation to a national campaign is an understatement. It is like besting Lance Armstrong in the Tour De France.

Thank you!

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Thanks!

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Great post, and thank you. Obama has my vote regardless, despite my growing concerns about him. There is nothing he could do to turn me off more than the Republicans have. Barring a miracle, it is his nomination, and his presidency to win or lose. I have enormous concerns about what lies ahead, and I do believe that many Democrats will not support him. He's going to have to address that.

I respect your concern Otto. It is interesting though, if you have followed Obama's rise, like I have, it is amazing how he is able to change the minds of even the most hardend opponents.

Very gracious post. I resisted the urge to respond to the couple of trollish remarks, just because I didn't want to contribute to the sullying of such a good post.

Now we can turn toward the challenge of McCain and take back our country. OUR country. All of us together.

I agree with Phoebe....:)

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"To those who have been with Sen. Obama all along, you got it right, so far. So far. My sincere congratulations to all of you as well. You've earned an honest triumph. It's your game to win or lose now. Get to work, and Good Luck."

one_wilson,

I'm one who has been with Senator Obama all along...so to speak. But in fact, this election is about all of us.

I implore you to work with us since it is our game to win our lose.

Good luck to us all.

You first. And don't try to tell us you have, because that Eisenstein entry is anti-Obama drivel.

You first. And don't try to tell us you have, because that Eisenstein entry is drivel.

Thanks for a thoughtful post free of subterfuge, self-delusion and self-pity. I have written scathingly about Hillary, but you have outclassed me with your grace.

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DF,

Watching John King's quietly concerned reaction to the withheld vote results in Lake County made me start doing some research last night.

Jeffrey Toobin was actually the first one to say something about the impropriety of the vote withholding, followed by an extremely upset mayor of Hammond, Indiana, who vouched for Hillary's competitive performance throughout the county. (Only two mayors supported Obama in Lake County; the rest were for Hillary.) None other than Carl Bernstein of all people used the word "nefarious" about the Lake County results, and you have to admit he's no Hillbot.

Anyway, while Anderson Cooper was yammering mindlessly in the foreground, John King was obsessively checking and rechecking the timing of vote results for all of Obama's counties, but especially Marion and Lake, the two (biggest) counties where there were unexplained delays. King had noted earlier that Obama needed 60 percent to close the gap, and lo and behold, Obama got that.

Because Lake County is supposed to be Obama territory, my immediate thought was that Obama's side rigged the results in Lake County with the help of the infamous and nearby Daley machine. I know people who have worked on the ground in Chicago politics, so I know it's notoriously crooked.

However, I couldn't reconcile my initial reaction with what I saw earlier as Barack's and Michelle's oddly somber demeanor as they mounted the stairs for his victory speech. I thought Obama's speech itself was "off," and I thought they continued to look somber as they left the stage. To me, they seemed inexplicably upset or something, and this was long before John King inspired me do a little Googling.

Hillary's speech was way off, of course. It was a pre-concession speech without a clear focus. I believe she will concede before the next primary, and I personally hope that she does so soon.

But that doesn't mean I think the vote wasn't tampered with in Indiana.

So I started to do some research. I found the Black Box Voting info, a few seemingly responsible bloggers (we're not the only ones), I reviewed the voter ID law issue, etc. What I learned from my research made me start focusing on the Republicans instead of on Obama.

After sleeping on it, I don't think Obama had anything to do with the Lake County results. But I do believe the vote was manipulated. Clinton's demographics, the exit polls, the pre-vote polls, the late-breakers, the consistency of voting patterns, and yes, the anecdotal information all favored Clinton. The results don't add up cleanly. And where they are most suspect is in Gary, a long-foresaken city with a dubiously competent mayor.

Maybe you don't know me well enough to know I make a genuine effort to support my arguments, DF. If you don't, you'll have to take my word for it. In any case, Talking Points Memo is the home of illuminating the U.S. attorney firings mystery, so I think there's at least a precedent for me to express my misgivings in this forum. I hope Dems look into why the vote was withheld in Lake County, and if there's nothing to it, that'll be great news. But that jury (so to speak) is still out.

ugh...yeah it couldn't be as simple as they had massive turnout and it takes time to count votes. there has to be some great conspiracy out there.

but let me ask you this. if they were going to "rig" the votes as you suggest, wouldn't they rig it so that obama won?

geesh.

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yeah it couldn't be as simple as they had massive turnout and it takes time to count votes.

Have you ever worked the polls on election day? I have. An amazing machine called the computer counts the votes instantly. Doesn't take any time at all to count those votes. You print out the result totals from each machine at a polling site, and take those printed tallies to a central location, where the precinct totals are certified.

In Lake County, the electronic vote results were withheld for 5 hours while the absentee ballots were being counted by hand. There were 11,000 absentee ballots, but that's not really that many.

I can't remember who said it on CNN last night (John King?), but vote results are often withheld until it is known how many votes are needed for a candidate to win (exactly like last night). That's why it's considered improper to withhold vote results these days, and fraud is immediately suspected. I didn't make this up; it's been going on before you and I ever came along.

there has to be some great conspiracy out there.

Again, vote fraud is real, not a conspiracy. That's why there are laws, watchdog groups, sheriffs who check the polling sites, etc.

but let me ask you this. if they were going to "rig" the votes as you suggest, wouldn't they rig it so that obama won?

For all practical purposes, Obama did win Indiana.

Ready, I understand the need to try and disseminate. It is true that Hillary polled really well in IN.

But instead of looking for some kind of conspiracy against Hillary (which none of the MSM or Hillary campaign itself is claiming), maybe there is a more reasonable explanation.

From the exit polls:
* Seventeen percent in Indiana and 14% in North Carolina decided in last three days.

* The economy is the major driving issue, with 65% In Indiana saying it was the most important issue, and 60% saying the same in North Carolina. (considering IN voters are a lot sharper than they are given credit for, I think the gas tax pander coupled with other less than honest tactics may have swayed late voters)

* Voters in both states pretty much split evenly on the question of whether Wright was important in their vote. (so even though she polled higher early in the week, the controversy started to die out by election day)

* More voters blamed Hillary for negative campaigning -- 63% of Indiana voters and 67 % of North Carolina voters thought Clinton attacked Obama unfairly. Only 43 % in Indiana and 40% in North Carolina thought the reverse.

So my take is, you can go with the far out theory of voter suppression against Clinton because you believe her higher pol numbers should have won out, or you can look at the more credible facts available.

There is, however, more evidence of republican shenanigans to improve Hillary's chances rather than the other way around.

One more thing, while I know you have this idea that the "corrupt Daley machine" and the debunked idea the Chicago is still Al Capone territory, I would like to remind you that fine, honest, ethical officials hail from here as well. Think Patrick Fitzgerald, Paul Simon, or Dick Durbin.

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mageduley,

1) I didn't say "voter suppression." I said "vote fraud." See my answer to freaktown above for details about Lake County's results last night.

2) CNN is who put the idea in my head in the first place. So the MSM did report on it, before the Lake County results came in after midnight. Obviously CNN didn't know anything conclusively about what was happening in Gary to cause the delay. However, the "veterans" at CNN (Toobin, John King, Larry King, Blitzer, and even Bernstein) all talked about the possibility of vote fraud. John King was especially alarmed.

3) I admitted to my initial knee-jerk bias, and I proceeded to do some research to confirm or reject that bias. I changed my mind when I got more information, and I deserve some credit for that. I'm not even looking at conspiracy "against Clinton." Rather, I'm looking at overall Republican manipulation of the Democratic primary process. Just because Obama did well doesn't mean you should shrug off the idea of vote manipulation by Republicans, even in a red state.

4) Where are the Hispanics, mageduley? They constitute approx. 14% of the electorate in Lake County. Seems like they didn't vote yesterday.

5) About the Daley machine: I am going with a living, breathing, firsthand reliable source, not myth and rumor. It's fine with me if you don't accept that as a viable reference. I'm not saying everyone in Chicago is corrupt. But I have cited more than one reference that politics in Gary, Indiana, is known to be corrupt and disenfranchising and has been for years.

Can we agree there has been Republican shenanigans throughout the Dem primary? Doesn't matter who receives it, does it?

Fair enough Ready :). We will have a dem in the white house. With you and other passionate dems there is no way we can loose. Whatever bull the repubs try to pull, we have the sheer numbers on our side.

You're welcome to believe whatever you wish, but without proof it's just that: Belief.

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Many thanks for the permission to choose my beliefs, DF. I'm glad to know it's still a free country.

It's ironic to me that you've never refuted an argument with any actual proof yourself. Never. Not once.

Most of the time you offer only snark or condescension, and I've noticed that you rarely engage with people who don't believe in your beliefs. Kind of like George Bush.

What can I do when I offer "proof" that you refuse to think about? I supplied at least 5 links about something that's in progress. That's all the forensic evidence I can find because the event is too recent.

But back to the irony: It's ironic because for some reason I thought you were involved in science in some way. Yet scientists—at least the ones I have worked with from different fields of study—don't deny that certain information exists just because that information challenges them or makes them uncomfortable. My impression about your background must be wrong. My mistake.

When I evaluate the limited information available, I do not believe Obama will beat McCain.

Hope I am wrong about that.

cheers,
rtbag

Irony is you getting snippy with me when all I've said is that what you've offered doesn't add up to much. That's what a scientist does. You look at the evidence and follow the data where it takes you. Here's what a scientist doesn't do:

Because Lake County is supposed to be Obama territory, my immediate thought was that Obama's side rigged the results in Lake County with the help of the infamous and nearby Daley machine. I know people who have worked on the ground in Chicago politics, so I know it's notoriously crooked.

You started out with a belief and now you're hunting down facts to fit the belief. That's exactly backwards with respect for the scientific method.

You also started out, guns blazing, claiming that he hadn't actually won the nomination because of this. You're being reactionary and hyperbolic. There was similar circumstantial evidence of monkey business in Cuyahoga County, Ohio, in 2004. However, if you can't prove that it was nothing more than some sort of procedural screw up then you have nothing except suspicion. It doesn't matter what I think might have happened in Ohio (and I tried to make a big deal about it even so) and likewise doesn't matter here.

As for your bullshit about how I've "never refuted an argument with any actual proof", I'm laughing. Hyperbolic ad hominem crap. Half of the time you have something to say and you're civil, the other half you really earn your moniker. I never know which one of you I'm going to get.

For the record, I read all of your links and I'll read any additional evidence that you want to supply, but attacking me because I don't immediately jump down the rabbit hole with you is just foolish. Eventually no one, including myself, will listen to you if this is the way that you behave.

Doesn't it suck to get involved in one of these, DF?

Well, I'm done with this. It's absolute nonsense. There are a lot of things about the 9/11 Commission report that don't add up. In some cases, there is the appearance of impropriety and cause for suspicion. However, is there proof of misconduct?

As you know, it matters not what you believe. What matters is what you can prove. I mentioned Occam's razor above. The special applications, Hanlon's razor, applies here as well:

Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

I had an insect buzzing around until she finally burst. I find that most people who are unable to truly deal with critical thinking (e.g. talking in conspiracies, fuzziness, or out of belief), don't have an internal mechanism to constantly stop themselves and ask if they are on track.

Of course, to do science, you must constantly be open minded and constantly be the skeptic... at the same time. It's on that razor edge that exists the truth.

As I said, there are some that believe the Earth is flat and we never landed men on the Moon. Many of the publications quoted here are no different that FNC... but they reinforce people's own beliefs.

Billy Glad did have a moment of true brilliance by quoting Steinbeck. For weeks here, we've heard people talk about the "little guy", the "working class", etc.

I work for a living as most people I know. It's amazing how people are quick to judge up and down the line -- imbuing sainthood on people they see as suffering. I've worked with firemen. On more than one occasion, we had to wait before approaching an area until the cops come to escort. Why? Because people shoot at firemen. Firemen are unarmed. They come into a situation and risk their lives. And they get shot at.

And you wonder why firemen tend to vote for law and order and have more hard-line views skewing to the right? But you see, how complex the situation is? Who is the "working man" in that scenario?

Anyway, you and I had the same solution to the problem, DF. What a surprise.

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clearthinker, I suspect you haven't followed all of my comments, either.

In an election, withholding the vote is misconduct. But that doesn't mean blame can (or will) be assigned until an investigation is done. The vote withholding is being investigated. It is too soon to know what actually happened.

But, never mind.

Actually, I have, RTBAG.

Including the baiting ones you made to me the day after you extended an olive branch.

I'm very disappointed, my friend.

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Including the baiting ones you made to me the day after you extended an olive branch.

I'm very disappointed, my friend.

I don't know what you expect from me, ct.

Whether you mean to be or not, your written "affect" can sometimes come off as condescending-sounding. Maybe it's simply an affect that comes from academia (I say that b/c you've mentioned teaching and universities). When you sound condescending, ct, it offends me. I'm not baiting you, I'm frustrated that you make assumptions about how I think. Those assumptions then seem to lead to judgmental conclusions or miscommunications. Everyone hates to be pre- or misjudged.

I work to understand you, ct, and I can allow that I may misread your "tone" or intent. Since I have never met you, however, I truly have no idea what kind of person you are. I have only your written "persona," just like you have only my written persona.

I don't want to be enemies with you. But I have to stake out some territory here: I genuinely like and respect Hillary. I don't think she's unbalanced, evil, or destructive, as you like to claim. I honestly don't think she's the worst thing since the atom bomb. It's likely I never will think that. Maybe you think that's Kool-Aid talking. So be it. I know it's not, because I don't think she's perfect or ideal. I think she's flawed. I think she makes mistakes. And I forgive her her flaws and allow her room to correct her mistakes.

If you insult me by insisting that Hillary is unstable and only a muddle-headed person could admire her, I'm going to object. Depending on the degree of the (perceived) insult, I may object forcefully or sarcastically. You have to have noticed that as the minority group at TPM, Hillary supporters get ridiculed constantly, yes? It's like a clique here. I'm not trying to convince you to like Hillary, I'm just claiming a right to exist and express my views in this forum too.

Do you know how I chose my nick? Did you ever see this comment of mine?

I'm flawed, clearthinker, as is everyone. But I have my good points too.

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You also started out, guns blazing, claiming that he hadn't actually won the nomination because of this.

No, I didn't say he hadn't actually won the nomination. You misread me, DF.

Sorry you think that. It's my view that Obama won. It's also my concern that the vote was tampered with.

Btw, I also believe the vote was tampered with in OH in 2004. I grew up in Cuyahoga County. I know all about Ken Blackwell, etc.

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P.S. I also stated I'd abandoned that "belief" (or hypothesis) when the facts didn't bear out.

Like I said, I've been responding to several people in this thread, and I have no way of knowing which of my comments you've read and which you haven't, DF. If you ever come back to this thread, try to read all of my comments (to everyone). You might find me to be more temperate and consistent in my opinion than you currently believe.

Then again, I could be wrong about that too.

Just to be clear, and I wish I could find the damned thread, there was something from yesterday in the evening sometime where people were discussing that his win had likely clinched the nomination, but you responded that he hadn't actually won it and proposed that the vote had been tampered with. You've stated since that you don't really think that and so it seems like we're clear at this point on where the whole thing is at.

RE: Blackwell, that guy is a scumbag as near as I can tell. I also don't think too highly of Wally O'Dell or his operation.

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I probably did say something provocative last night (sorry, couldn't help it). But I totally think Obama has clinched the nomination. I thought it last night, too.

Fwiw, when I saw Obama's and Michelle's somber faces before his speech in NC, I thought something was terribly wrong, like someone had died or something. My completely unprovable theory now is that Obama knew something was screwed up in Indiana, and he was upset about the possibility of vote fraud or even the appearance of it, especially in his own backyard. In other words, I think Obama would never be party to rigging an election.

If I ever bring up Indiana again, please don't wonder if it's because I think there should be a recount or re-do. I'll probably follow the story to learn what happened (and how the Republicans were involved), although not in an attempt to undermine Obama's inevitability.

I'm trying to think if I hate anyone as much as Ken Blackwell. (How's that for hyperbole?) I mean besides Bush, Cheney, Gonzales, Rumsfeld, etc. And the whole Diebold thing makes me ready to blow a gasket. :-)

You've probably already seen this article by RFK Jr. about the 2004 election, yes?

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I can't help feeling there is a changing of the guard taking place here & the gracious letter above is what I'd LOVE to hear from Sen. Clinton right about now. I know she's going to probably ratchet down the rhetoric & do her damndest to raise cash to retire her campaign debt & I understand all that. I just wish she would reaffirm my previous faith & belief in her & Bill by putting the Country first this time & yes the party too. I believe that @ the first sign of negativity from her campaign from this point forward that campaign should be brought down hard. I wish I felt the old sense of trust I did from the Clintons when Bill was Pres. but we've seen way too much ugliness to trust it's over without something formal...

It's all love. Welcome back to the family. Slaughter the fatted calf.
(great post)

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What a gracious and generous-minded post. Let the healing begin. It's time for all Democrats, no matter who they've supported up to now, to rally around our candidate and help him gain the White House. I hope the tide really is turning and that the animosity will finally end. Great post!

Well said. I don't know if I could have been so classy if it were the other way around, but this tone is certainly what we need.

Your post is gratefully received by me, at least. I hope we'll hear more and more of this from Democrats all over the spectrum. And I believe that over the next few months we'll see, if not healing, at least and increasing conviction that the whole point of this endeavor is to beat the pants off John McCain.

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Thank you, thank you. We need to come together and now is the time. As an avid Obama supporter, I believe that he will live up to his promise, especially if he can mobilize people who have good will and generosity, such as one_wilson.

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My post is so far down that I don't think you will read it, but one_wilson, i am really happy that you made this post. Actually, I'm not just happy, I am sincerely thankful. It is gracious and amazingly big of you. I have been an Obama supporter since the beginning and I don't know, if he had been in HRC's position, that I would be as big as you. A lot of things have been said by many people in the party over this primary season, and I think that a lot of good work is going to be accomplished in the upcoming months. But the most important thing to do at this moment is what you have just done so eloquently: reach across a painful divide and shake hands with the other side. What you have just done is integral to beating the awful men and women who haver stolen power for the past eight years (destroying our economy, our international standing, our health care, the environment, eating away at human rights, killing thousands, etc). We can do it.
Good fight. And well done.

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THIS IS EXCELLENT NEWS - FOR HILLARY!!!!!!

No - wait - wrong sarcastic reply!

Excellent post - and a nice counter to the virulent animosity that has marked the boards for the past week or so.

Don;t leave us altogether! We need more voices of clam and rationality this election season!

Don't be a stranger.

you're not the only one who's done:

http://hillaryis404.org/

Thanks for saying as much. We're all really on the same team. And it's clear that we care immensely about our country and its leaders or, rather, in choosing its leaders. I think that more voices like yours will bring the Democrats the presidency.

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Well in the immortal words of the Dixie Chicks :

I'm not ready to make nice.
I’m still mad as hell and
I don’t have time to go round and round and round.
It’s too late to make it right.
I probably wouldn’t if I could.

I'm very late to this thread, but thanks a lot, one_wilson. It has to have been really hard to have written that post after the disappointment of last night's results. I know I couldn't have been as gracious as you, if the circumstances had been reversed. I'm so glad that you and some other Clinton supporters (even Otto F, who I'd assumed to be a Republican troll -- my bad) will be supporting Obama in the fall.

I sure hope you'll be joining us to work to make sure our Democratic candidate wins big in 2008.

I admire your gracious comments and appreciate your support of Obama. It's time to focus on November.

Great post! I really hope you and the other level-headed Clinton supporters stay here through the GE. Clinton may have hurt Obama a great deal in this process, but she also may have just given him the tough skin he's going to need in the general.

Contributers like you and AR have brought a lot of the cult-like Obama supporters back down earth, by challenging them to talk real politics. You've also reminded many of us that everyone is not convinced he can pull it off in the general and that the political organizing that we've done to get this far is only a taste of the fight we're going to have to bring to McSame.

If you haven't already noticed, many of us Obama supporters are also fighters and going all the way without the fighters from the Clinton side is a suicide mission. I know you'll be back, but just make it soon. We're going to have a lot of battling to do before november when the rightwing slime machine cranks into top gear. Let's take this country back!

Please help us do so. Even if you can't bring yourself to work for Obama, pick a local candidate, or congress critter or senator to work to elect.

I always wondered how to get a huge rating...

Apparently the topic helps!

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Nice post.

It's remarkable to consider what has happened in this primary. The highest levels of political power has, for democrats anyway, has been thrown open to women and people of color.

Amazing. We should all be proud to be democrats.

Kudos for this classy post.

Chapeau!

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Thanks for the admission. It's good to see the family back together.

I can somewhat confidently say that, even with everything Clinton's pulled, I would done the same thing were our positions reversed (except a lot more surly and sullen about it), as my opinion of the Clintons has always been "I wouldn't trust them around my hypothetical teenage daughter or my wallet, but the White House? No problemo!"

I doff my white cap to you. May you inspire others with your class.

I doff my rock to you... congrats on over 200 recommendations!

That is the first decent post from a Clinton supporter I have ever heard since this thing began.Probably the best ever given by a Clinton supporter.I only pray with all my heart that the rest of you Clinton supporters will follow suit.
Disunity is one thing you do not need when battling my Republican bretheren.If you intend to win this thing guys you must and I repeat must now unite behind OBAMA!!!The Old The Young The Rich The Poor people of all stripes must now help him WIN!!!To all those Clinton Supporters well done and well fought you will live to fight another day.

Everyone hates to be pre- or misjudged.

I agree. That's why when you have picked at my words to imply racism or sexism (see
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/05/women-arent-fit-to-hold-office.php )
I was disappointed. You had to work hard to do that... particularly since you read a lot of words by me.

I have never trashed a Hillary supporter personally, although I have made cases why Hillary would be a poor choice for POTUS. I have never called Hillary evil, as you claim, although I have called her a person with a huge sense of entitlement.

She is destructive to the Dem Party and to key issues in the national debate. This wasn't the case 5 months ago, but it is now. I'm not the only one saying this. Party leaders are as well.

I've never said she is worse than the atom bomb. And I've never accused anyone of Kool-Aid drinking.

So, I'm not sure where you are coming from.

I don't know where you personify comments about Hillary to comments about you. And, frankly, some of the "Hillary clique" post intentionally dumb or outrageous comments -- just to see if that can get a reaction. I tend to ignore these unless I see someone putting out a factually wrong thing. I'm much more interested in injecting observations that come from a different point of view. Surely if you read my posts, you know I'm not glued into the MSM like many here.

It's fine for you to like Hillary, but I don't understand why you expect a pass on her pandering, or divisive comments or other distasteful acts during the campaign. Maybe that "Hillary clique" is shrinking for a reason. I'm not here to convince you to abandon Hillary. But I am here to point out issues that I consider important.

Everyone has their own reason for being here. FlyOnTheWall likes to delegate count. I like to talk about issues that I don't think get enough coverage -- that's more to an election that constant poll taking, after all.

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So, I'm not sure where you are coming from.

Here's where I'm coming from:

Quoting the DSM, you once accused Hillary of having Narcissistic Personality Disorder. There is a tediously long history of characterizing women as mentally and emotionally unstable—it pervades fields ranging from psychology and science to literature, film, and pop culture. Check out a brief Wiki entry for a book called The Madwoman in the Attic for just one literary reference. If you don't enlighten yourself about the history of such bias and stereotyping, clearthinker, you are merely adding a cliched echo to the contemporary dialogue. It's a history like any other: if you don't know it, you are bound to repeat it.

Speaking of literature, you have equated Hillary with the pigs in Animal Farm. Another time you called Hillary a "rotting grape." You have equated Hillary's campaign with Goebbels' tactics (iow, Hillary is a Nazi). You've said countless hyperbolically negative things about Hillary. I can't remember them all, and I'd prefer not to.

When you went so far as to say you thought "fear-mongering" was worse than calling Hillary a c*nt, however, I didn't think I would interact with you again. This was a pivotal moment for me. I stopped reading your comments and nearly wrote you off completely. This is where I get the idea you have not examined the sexist stereotypes inherent in some of your views. I don't have to "work hard" at all to see that.

I don't ever speak about Barack the way you speak about Hillary.

The reason I asked you about the "1/2 black" comment is because I truly had no fucking idea what you were driving at. I still don't. I was criticizing the contradictions within your statements; I wasn't accusing you of racism. I don't think you are racist, and it's not a term I throw around.

So, yes, I have read many of your words, clearthinker. Have you read them yourself?

As for MSM references, you've quoted the AP, USA Today, NY Sun. How am I supposed to know what your MSM habits are?

I don't know where you personify comments about Hillary to comments about you.

In this comment thread you demonstrate how you have made assumptions about me without confirming what my views are first.

It's fine for you to like Hillary, but I don't understand why you expect a pass on her pandering, or divisive comments or other distasteful acts during the campaign.

Sorry, but making equations to pigs, Goebbels, and rotting grapes is not the same as legitimately critiquing pandering, divisive comments, or distasteful acts. Those are themselves distasteful comments, frankly, as "intentionally outrageous" as anything any Clinton supporter says (trolls excepted). Per Godwin's Law alone, any reference to Nazis is inflammatory and guaranteed to "trigger" a reaction in many people. So what if you didn't use the word "evil"? It's implied in such a comparison!

I do not see how you advance the dialogue between Democrats, progressives, or us when you articulate such divisive memes yourself.

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