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How did you choose your favoured candidate?
So, I'd say this discussion is quite a simple one: say why you picked the candidacy you support, and discuss your reason and the reasons of others in a polite fashion (except for you, "present" and gotalife. You are allowed to post your reasons and participate in the discussion of your reasons, but I don't have the patience to police you in the discussion of others' reasons, which I know I would have to do if I let you, as I've been here long enough to predict your lack of common courtesy).
I'll start by saying I am an early Obamanaut, having picked him, I believe, before Iowa.
The reason for this is a strange one, being an admittedly niche issue that really doesn't effect (affect? screw it, I'm lazy) me directly.
I picked him over video games.
Obama is the only prominant candidate (as opposed to Mike Gravel [god only knows what he thinks], Kucinich, and, lets face it, Bill Richardson [my secondary choice]) who hasn't villainized them and called for their restriction, as opposed to Clinton, who is one of the most vocal critics of video games on the left.
Now, many of you are probably thinking "video games? He chose his candidate over video games? And he said that it doesn't effect him directly: does that mean he doesn't even play video games?" Well the answers are yes, yes, and my game system is a PS2, my newest game is Kingdom Hearts 2, and I never get around to playing anything anymore, so yes, though the other site I'm active on is Penny Arcade, and I'm somewhat in the culture.
So now the younger among you are probably thinking "omgwtfbbq?" and the older among you are thinking "what the hell does omgwtfbbq mean?" and both young and old are probably thinking "why won't he stop with the question and answer writing?"
The answers are:
1)If you think about it, does the gas tax holiday thing really matter, as it was never going to pass? Of course it did, and the reason it does is the same as why Clinton's rhetoric on video games matter. They both show that Clinton is willing to say or do anything to score political points.
The "harm" of video games is the most vacuous issue in modern politics (and yes, I have been paying attention for the last eight years). Video games are no more harmful than television, movies, punk, graffiti, rock, rock 'n roll, comic books, science fiction, jazz, radio (probably much less that this, as I video games have yet to produce a national panic resulting in people fleeing their towns and Hitler calling it "evidence of the decadence and corrupt condition of democracy."), swing (flappers, anyone?), ragtime, records, minimalism, burlesques, the printed word, writing, or auxiliary verbs. The opposition to them, just like all the things listed above, is pure pander, and a distinctive trait of a person not to be trusted in a position of governance (unless the person is really old and/or stupid, in which case he might actually believe it).
2) ongwtfbbq stands for "oh my god, what the f-ck, barbecue, and is an acronym used in half-serious surprise or perplexity.
3) Because I like this structure.








Comments (148)
Video Games!? Well OK, talk about a generation gap :)
I came to Obama early. I have to be honest Hillary concerned me. I was worried about her high negatives and the Bush, Clinton Bush, Clinton. This could end up being 28 years of the Presidency being held by two families. I digress. So Obama interested me and then I read Andrew Sullivan's article and I was there.
May 11, 2008 7:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
As I said, it wasn't so much the games themselves, but the rhetoric about them.
Can you post said article? Was it the one in the NYT over how Obama was going to be a great diplomatic internationalist? (that one started the lean)
May 11, 2008 7:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
The was in The Atlantic here's the link -
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200712/obama
Being of the Vietnam generation it really struck me.
May 11, 2008 8:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks.
May 11, 2008 9:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Your most welcome.
May 11, 2008 10:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hillary gave interviews with game magazines and such, here's one interview, and it seems clear she's concerned about hidden sexual content in one interactive game, as well as whether the ratings system is enforced for sales to young kids just like movie theaters enforce ratings.
While I may expose my kids to certain content earlier, it's my choice, and other parents may have different standards - she seems to be asking for credible publication and adherence to standards. She cites studies referring to the effects of visualizing violence by young children - do you have anything specific to contradict this? Do you object to limiting access to Hustler by 9 year olds, and is it beyond the pale to make the sale of Hustler to 9 year olds criminal or at least carry significant fines? Similarly, do you object to parents wanting to limit access to "Henry, Portrait of a Serial Killer" or various Italian cannibal flicks to young children? Is an interactive video game where they can participate in decapitations and disembowlments just a free speech issue for 4th graders, or do parents trying to prevent a Columbine have some say or obligation to pay attention to their children's entertainment selections? Hillary doesn't make a blanket statement that all these games are bad - she notes that it can be individual. Plenty of kids may find that Death Race 2000 is no more behavior affecting than cowboys and indians or watching the Three Stooges, but some kids have trouble distinguishing reality from fantasy. What's your opinion on parental rights and duties, and how they can be effectively upheld for video games?
May 12, 2008 1:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for adding that context, Desidero.
May 12, 2008 2:22 AM | Reply | Permalink
The problem is that these concerns are covered by existing policies.
May 12, 2008 8:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
Obviously she felt different. What existing policy?
May 12, 2008 9:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
Keeping track of what your kids do or do not watch is the parents responsibility, not the government or the store. That was the whole point of this blog. To say it is the government's duty to "protect" our kids from video game content because parents won't is a pander. It is speaking to most repressive and reprehensible instincts in our already overly-religious country.
Enforcing the rating system is reasonable, but any kind of censorship, self or otherwise, is ridiculous, Pollyanna and not in keeping with any studies done on the subject. Someone who is going to be adversely affected by video games will have the same affect from Bugs Bunny - it is the individual make-up not the media. There are already warning labels to provide context before a game is purchased. Anything other than that is up to the individual and shouldn't involve the government at all.
If your kid gets his hand on a game that you don't approve of then you take it from him. If you don't care enough to police what your kids watch, then why is that my concern or the government's concern? Just like if your kid sees a movie you find inappropriate. Does that mean we shouldn't make those movies? I agree that there should be more reasonable standards for rated R trailers. They have gotten over the top for where and when they play.
However, to initiate some sort of across the board witch hunt for some mythical enemy to American Families in "Hollywood"
is clearly going overboard.
May 12, 2008 8:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
Government regularly censors what's on the airwaves before 10pm. Also ridiculous? Sorry, it's American reality. Government also pushes Hollywood to self-policy (read: self-censor) with MPAA ratings. What's the witch hunt to which you refer? The legislation was simply to say "if the rating says no sales to under 18, don't sell to under 18". We have similar for alcohol and tobacco and porn magazines and handguns. Can't see why this is controversial at all. The parents are responsible, if they don't mind the kid watching it the parents can buy it. Allowing sales to minors and putting the burden on the parents to catch them is a pretty backwards approach - they've already specified content suitable for a specific age, and then you want to require detective work from each and every parent rather than the more obvious point of sale.
May 12, 2008 9:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
So why are video games pornographic? They already follow the same guidelines as movies.
May 12, 2008 9:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
If they're rated the equivalent of R or X, then they shouldn't be sold to under-18's without parental permission, not that an R rating is "porn" or even an X necessarily. What exactly are we debating?
May 12, 2008 11:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
"We have similar for alcohol and tobacco and porn magazines and handguns."
Movies do not have these laws. They're followed by convention, but they are only enforced through the civil courts.
May 12, 2008 4:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Theaters are a few chains that police themselves rather well. It is a much better controlled environment than hundreds of thousands of stores that sell video games, and the distributors have a lot at stake in making sure their self-policing works relatively well.
May 13, 2008 12:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
What about movie stores?
May 14, 2008 10:25 AM | Reply | Permalink
No where did I say we should allow sales to minors or that we should have standards, but if somehow a minor gets his hands on an adult rated game, it is up the parents to be aware of what video games their kids play. Period. The only one responsible for this is the parents. You don't need to be a detective to know what your kids are doing.
The witch hunt I refer to is in how you frame your rhetoric.
Somehow "Hollywood" is responsible for ensuring that nothing is produced that could possibly offend a small segment of the population or that they are somehow responsible for some people's piss-poor ability to be parents.
May 12, 2008 10:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
I only add that if anyone on TPM knows about the psychic effect of computer imagery, well.....take a look.
May 12, 2008 11:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
No, Hollywood can produce as much porn as it wants.
It simply can't sell porn to minors. It's the law, and a rather simple and basic one at that.
Yes, parents still have to try to track what their kids do anyway, but they have the right to know that stores are not selling content illegally to their children. As long as the kids are under 18, it's the parent or guardian's decision, not a store clerk's. You can go through the same equation with any other controlled item - why can't a clerk sell a 9-year-old rum? Isn't it the parent's job to watch what the kid does? Why force companies to put fences around large pits in the ground? Isn't it the parents' responsibility to track where their kids go?
May 12, 2008 11:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
And regarding "you don't need to be a detective to know what your kids are doing", some parents work 70 hours or more a week for survival. That's part of life - I've known a fair number of immigrants running grocery stores in this position, nurses pulling lots of overnight shifts, and other cases of overwork to try to provide for the kids.
May 12, 2008 11:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
None of those examples have artistic or journalistic merit, which you have to say is absent in a product before censoring it (that is how the supreme court struck down laws governing what can be put in film)
May 12, 2008 4:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
No, it's being withheld from children, not censored from the adult market. Plenty of toys have markings to state their intended audience.
May 13, 2008 12:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
But it is still legal for children to buy them.
May 14, 2008 10:25 AM | Reply | Permalink
What about rap?
Obama, the first presidential candidate to call for shock jock Don Imus to be fired for his racist comments about the Rutgers University women's basketball team, has said it's troublesome to condemn Imus' "nappy-headed hos" slur without addressing similar language used by rap and hip-hop musicians.
from Jake Tapper
May 12, 2008 11:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
If this is still about video games, the issue is not to restrict speech of artists, it's to allow parents the choice of restrict that access to their children. Presumably parents should be able to restrict Imus and rappers and other forms of unwanted misogyny if it's over the airwaves or via CDs and games.
May 12, 2008 1:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
That sounds a bit crazy... but I don't think it is.
You're right, Hillary is a panderer extraordinaire. She might want to ban violent movies or violent weapons (you know, guns and stuff) but no, it's video games. Old people don't understand video games and young people don't vote, therefore it's safe to lead the righteous fight against video games.
May 11, 2008 7:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Now your reason.
And yes, I will pop up in other discussions to remind you until you give your reason.
May 11, 2008 7:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry, forgot about that. Dynasties = bad. Pandering = bad. Twisting the truth beyond all recognition = bad. Entitlement = bad. That's Hillary. I never thought she was this horrible, but she did her best to leave no doubt.
I initially didn't pay much attention to Obama, but the more I heard of and from him, the more I liked him. He really is a brilliant orator, he sounds sincere, he takes what he does very, very seriously. He strikes me as someone who might indeed change things, and for the better at that. Someone worth voting for, not just against his opponent. The way he energized young voters is impressive.
Out of Clinton, McCain and Obama, only Obama seems to live in the 21st century. That alone is a good reason to support him.
May 11, 2008 8:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
And there you have it.
By the way, I liked your vid game comments.
May 11, 2008 10:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
I concur. The dynasty angle had me moderately biased against Senator Clinton's candidacy.
When I was listening to her last fall, though, I was beginning to think I could support her after all, perhaps even enthusiastically. Then the primary campaign started. First, Obama's rhetoric resonated with me more than Clinton's, and I sensed a real charisma that Clinton lacked. She was good on the stump, no doubt, but she wasn't inspirational, and I thought Obama could inspire.
The flap made over Obama's comments about Reagan probably are what convinced me to back him, for multiple reasons:
1. Obama's comments showed he was thinking very strategically, that he believed he could push the country to the left, countering how Reagan pushed it to the right. That vision is important.
2. The flap Clinton made over it distorted what Obama had said: it wasn't an endorsement of Reagan or his policies, but it was an honest recognition that Reagan was an effective politician and leader.
3. Yes, Obama's comments did take a swipe at Bill Clinton's record as president, but, IMO, justifiably so. Clinton was elected in 1992 with control of both houses of congress, but he left with the Democrats in a minority in both Congress and most statehouses. Certainly the country was far better off under Clinton than it has been under Bush, and Bill justifiably deserves credit for that, but where Reagan led the country closer to his own vision, at best Clinton mollfied and perhaps slowed a continuing rightward drift in the American electorate. He was unable to lead it back.
Now it's far from clear that Obama will be able to deliver on his promise, but the more I heard of both candidates, the more it became clear to me that Clinton was running to become president simply to hold the office, to be the first woman president, whereas Obama was running for president to put the country on the right course.
Obama is not perfect, but he's saying (to me) all the right things: he generally uses the first-person plural (yes we can), where Clinton tends to use the singular (when I am president...). Obama is aware he makes mistakes and is willing to admit them, which is a refreshing change from the Bush years.
While I had already decided to support Obama, as Senator Clinton and her surrogates increasingly sought to portray Obama as the "black" candidate, I was increasingly repulsed. I have an odd mixture of admiration and contempt for the strategy. Clinton has done an excellent job at dictating the "issues" the media discuss: Rev. Wright, "bitter-gate", Obama the elitist, the gas tax holiday, etc. Also, at first the attacks were vague or subtle enough to provide plausible deniability that race-baiting was a conscious strategy. Bill Clinton's mentioning Jesse Jackson was to me a case in point: his words were nothing but complimentary to both Rev. Jackson and Senator Obama, but they did achieve the goal of equating the two in the minds of many listeners.
Trying to use race to marginalize Obama is, in my opinion, terribly wrong. I thought at first it was also bad tactics in a Democratic primary (although I thought it might be effective in a general election). Senator Clinton's relative strength in many recent primaries has me questioning whether it has been much of a negative for her among rank-and-file Democrats. But I do think the tactics have hurt her significantly among superdelegates, who, ironically, may be serving their intended purpose well.
To me, Senator Clinton never really made a strong, positive case why she should be president. Her campaign ran on its "inevitability", and it stressed her experience, but it didn't really emphasize why she wanted to be president or what she hoped to accomplish. And later her campaign morphed into an almost total negative one: vote for me because Obama is too inexperienced, or too black, or is simply unable to win the general election.
Obama wants to bring "change" (leaving open that different people may expect different types of "change"). He wants to end our costly occupation in Iraq. He wants to bring improved (albet, as Paul Krugman constantly reminds us, not universal) access to health care to our country. He is concerned that our economy is not benefiting most Americans, and he hopes to improve that.
On policy grounds, there is still little difference between the two, and either would be a significant improvement over Bush or McCain. But on style grounds, and potential, I find Obama far more appealing. He truly does send a new message to the world, that America is not simply George Bush and his "with us or against us" brand of unilateralism. But based on the tone and handling of their campaigns, I trust Obama far more to make a cleaner break from the policies of Bush. I believe he can inspire more Americans towards a shared purpose, and we can make America a better place.
May 12, 2008 12:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
In Obama, we have the first highly charismatic liberal politician since John Kennedy. This is a chance to finally elect a liberal President, after a very long dry spell filled with Republicans and pandering centrist Democrats. With President Obama working together with a Democratic congress, this country might finally embrace compassion as part of our public policy. Maybe we can put behind us the ugly Republican ethic of selfishness. It will be a difficult election this fall, but the potential rewards are immense.
May 11, 2008 8:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
Slightly off topic, but remember that:
JFK didn't want to deal with Civil Rights, it was forced on him.
JFK had a rather hawkish view on geo-politics, one of the reasons he widened the war in Vietnam.
JFK cut taxes on the upper brackets.
Jimmy Carter had a Dem Congress and was very frustrated by it.
Just trying to keep the historical record and analogies straight...
May 11, 2008 8:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Then he's better than JFK! JFK 2.o.
May 11, 2008 8:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
Before you jump for joy, this was yet another calibration point for me on your posts.
May 11, 2008 10:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
The difference between Carter's dem Congress and this one is eight years of Bush and an American public that has woken up, at least a little bit, the manipulations by those in power.
Obama will only be as successful as we are at convincing our Congressional representatives that they will lose their jobs if they don't change the way they do business.
With an involved American electorate, which is one of Barack's cornerstones, many of the past historical "realities" about our government can change dramatically.
Otherwise, your comments are spot on. JFK is far more myth these days with regards to his actual politics. He was far from progressive.
Though, I hope he would have changed, as did Bobby, had he lived long enough.
May 12, 2008 8:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
There was a column in Entertainment Weekly by Mark Harris about a speech Obama gave to some Hollywood types. It was about censorship and how we shouldn't, standard Dem stuff, lots of applause. But then Obama went on to say that Hollywood needed to start taking some responsibility for itself, that his girls shouldn't see commercials for Hostel VII during American Idol. And Harris said there was a lot of silence in the auditorium. This is very Obama, a belief in what government should and shouldn't do, and a believe in personal responsibility, and not in the code Reaganite way. He calls for people to meet him halfway, and this is unusual and one of the things I really respect about him. (This was the column writer's moment where he chose his candidate.)
I was an Edwards person. I believed he wanted to be president because he wanted to help poor people. And after the depredations of the last 8 years, that seemed to be the real moral task of the next administration.
Then Obama won Iowa, and I sensed, suddenly, that the world had changed. I had thought he was a DLC-er, a Clintonian, too eager to be a centrist, and a bit too religious for my tastes. But I watched his speech after Iowa and was moved--by the man and his words. And so I started to pay attention to him. I asked my friends who supported him why. Many had read his books when they came out and knew then that this man should be president. I looked at his positions and watched him on the trail and came to believe that he was the exact person we need at this moment in time. I thought he could change the country, fundamentally. And that he would crush the Republicans.
May 11, 2008 9:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
2/3 of Black households have single parents. While grandparents, relatives and friends often pick up the slack, there can be quite a bit of time unsupervised. Let's see, Grand Auto IV, the sequel to the game Hillary referred to with hidden sexual content, has killing policemen and picking up hookers as part of its game sequences. With over a million Blacks incarcerated, maybe Blacks have a good deal of interest in making sure their kids don't get sucked into foolish macho game playing that can turn into more than foolish behavior confronting the police.
Now, what does Obama do if Hollywood doesn't self-censor and still shows Hostel VII previews? Will every game producer self-censor as well?
May 12, 2008 2:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
Somehow, I see the problem here being with the overabundance of single parent families, not the fact that kids may or may not play a video game in which they have the opportunity to shoot a cop.
May 12, 2008 6:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
I would agree, but careful who you bring this up around - it's a politically sensitive subject, and has been for 2 decades at least.
May 12, 2008 9:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
Oh, I know. And I understand the issue people have with this. I just personally don't think it is the biggest problem facing us, or that it is worth the shrill anger and airtime it seems to use.
But, I am young and grew up around this stuff, so, it seems normal to me. I'm not saying that makes it okay, just trying to illustrate why I personally believe it's not a problem.
May 15, 2008 8:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
Erm, I was talking about the video games, not single parents. The latter is an issue I definitely feel is a bit too rough to productively bring up currently.
May 15, 2008 8:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
This is like saying the problem with automobile accidents is not that there are too few ambulances but that there are too many accidents.
Sure you have to drain the swamp but meanwhile its a good idea to have a strategy for alligators.
May 12, 2008 12:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
No, it's like saying there are too many untrained drivers out there.
May 12, 2008 1:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
You can get movies containing the killing of police during prime time, so I don't see why video games should get special status.
May 12, 2008 8:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
You can set video lock on your settop box, and there are limits as to how graphic a police killing will be during 6am-10pm viewing hours on non-cable TV. DVD rentals also should follow age ratings. Additionally, there's an extra element to interactive video games that allow the player to kill the cop, not just watch. Some parents may find this participation a bit disturbing, especially if they happen to be in law enforcement.
May 12, 2008 9:51 AM | Reply | Permalink
"some parents" I think this phrase is key. Some parents think that teaching evolution is going to make children violent.
And who doesn't have at least basic cable these days?
May 12, 2008 9:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
Parents who care can put cable lock on the programming. If they don't care, that's their choice. Get it yet? Parents' choice, not the kids'.
May 12, 2008 11:33 AM | Reply | Permalink
I care and do not use a cabel lock. I prefer to parent. Besides the lock is useless to me. The programing I really object to comes right on in and some that I approve of is blocked. That leaves me with the tools of actualy supervising my child.
May 12, 2008 12:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
That's perfectly fine - use the tools available as you wish. Similarly, if your kids want the controversial video games and it's fine by you, buy them for them.
Though I would say there are many styles of "parenting", and those that don't match up with yours might be quite valid as well. Some people don't even have TV or video games. Fancy that.
May 12, 2008 2:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Stores do not controll what my children buy. I do. If you do not there is no amount of regulation that can put you in controll. I do not expect retailers to enforce the ratings. They are a tool for me to use.
As for adult content hidden in a mature rated game, I could care less. I think that the policy of treating sexual content as adult and violence as mature is rediculous. Once a game is rated mature or adult that is just a clue that I need to investigate the game more before giving or withholding my approval.
May 12, 2008 2:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Posted in the wrong place my bad.
May 12, 2008 4:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
I do not object to others parenting method unless their method involves having the government get involved in making our parenting choices for us. If you object to the content of games don't buy them for your children. Do not expect the government to prevent them from doing what you are incapable of preventing them from doing. That is not the job of the state.
May 12, 2008 4:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
Parents' choice, not the government's, thank you...
May 12, 2008 4:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
My point exactly. Thank you for wording it more plainly than I am capable of.
May 12, 2008 5:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm a lazy writer, can't waste words :)
May 12, 2008 6:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
So you don't mind if I give your kids smut or drugs or whatever outside the schoolyard, because you're the parent and you'll be able to control them. No need to bring the government in, you're the parents here, all powerful, all seeing.
The points of the issue was that self-policing wasn't working, games companies were emboldened enough to slip more and more controversial material into games, kids had easy access to this, clerks in stores paid no attention to ratings whatsoever, the Entertainment Software Ratings Board was not working, and not every parent is a super-parent able to keep track of all kids' movements 24x7 so they asked for assistance.
What progressives seem to forget is that issues like these are important for some people and ignoring them or laughing at them is one of the reasons Republicans have such an easy time staying in power. You can read Hillary's interview here and background here and here including a study noting significantly higher rates of classroom problems with kids who played more violent games.
Of course it might have been the legislation was designed to make the games industry know she was serious so that they could take their self-policing more seriously.
May 13, 2008 12:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
People are not giving these games away they cost upwards of $50.00 apeice. If your kids have that kind of walking arround cash to freely spend on things you do not approve of I would argue that you should be more woried about the drugs they are buying than the video games and government regulation has done nothing to help with that. You and the people who are anxious to be pandered to on this matter are willing to give up your freedom for no gain in helping to parrent your children.
May 13, 2008 3:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
Those studies always lack a control, which is necessary because violent games are a good way to let off steam.
May 14, 2008 10:28 AM | Reply | Permalink
I knew during the 2004 speech that I wanted a President Obama someday. For anyone else who remembers the line, he had me at the word "Awesome." To me, that was the signal that I'd spotted a Democrat who could actively resist culture war divisions.
And yet, I dithered a bit about experience and electability and whether this was the right year. But on Martin Luther King's birthday, I realized that we were coming up on the 40th anniversary of Dr. King's death, and I realized who I wanted to have as the voice of the Democratic party for that event. In that moment, it wasn't about being sure about electability. It was about being sure who I wanted to fight for.
Only after that did I look into the organizational strength of the campaign and become quite sure that we're looking not only at electability but at the opportunity to realign the country for a generation.
May 11, 2008 9:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
I came to Obama slowly, as an "anyone but Hillary" voter. She's my Senator, and I think she's a corrupt panderer. I'm a Democrat who's inclined to agree with Dennis Kucinich, so Obama was a big leap of faith for me. But watching how he's run his campaign, I truly believe he has the kind of character and moral fortitude of someone I feel good about supporting. I don't have to agree with him on every issue, I trust he's a good man. I think that's why old power (like the Clintons) have such issue with him.
May 11, 2008 9:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh yeah, I should note that my reaction against Clinton wasn't as strong as I wrote here.
I guess you could say that my opinion after that point was "Clinton's policies are pretty good, as far as I know."
She was third after Richardson (I admit that I thought about electability when ruling out Edwards).
May 11, 2008 9:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
I knew generally what it was---I remember the schoolmarmish voice of senator clinton scolding Obama for being naive and inexperienced---I googled and this guy's account seems as good as any.
This scenario is once again running is course in Pakistan even as we speak. The Musharraf regime is on the brink of going the way of its predecessors. There is nothing new about this in the compass of Pakistan's past history. Like his predecessors, Musharraf is flailing about trying to retain his mandate by tampering with the country's judiciary, pursuing 'Great Game' stratagems in Waziristan, Afghanistan and Kashmir, and seeking ways either to rig the impending national elections or, if that fails, employing the gimmick of 'emergency rule' to prevent them from taking place.
The last resort of this latest attempt to govern Pakistan in the same old manner, unfortunately with the United State government, as usual, acting as an enabler, seems to be what Obama senses must come to an end.
His declaration that the Pakistani junta will no longer be given carte blanche to stonewall further on dislodging Al Qaeda from Waziristan cannot, therefore, be dismissed as the ranting of a politically immature novice, as his detractors aver; it is the right thing to say and should be seen as another instance of Obama once again getting ahead of the pack, as he did when he voted from the outset against the Bush administration's Iraq fiasco.
It indicates that Obama has thought more deeply about the Pakistan conundrum than have his fellow candidates in both political camps.
One hopes that he sticks to his guns and does not allow his detractors to erode his resolve. A sane political solution for Pakistan hangs in the balance.
Harold A Gould is a visiting scholar in the Centre for South Asian Studies at the University of Virginia, United States.
Other issues are more important to me---but this was the one that sold me on Obama. The rest fell into place.
May 11, 2008 10:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama felt that we should be hands off on Pakistan regarding the Bhutto assassination, that they're well able to police themselves:
Clinton also called for an independent, international investigation into Bhutto's death, "perhaps along the lines of what the United Nations have been doing with respect to the assassination of Prime Minister Hariri in Lebanon." Obama said he doesn't share that view. "It is important to us to not give the idea that Pakistan is unable to handle its own affairs," he said.
Of course the same day his Foreign Policy adviser stated “Senator Clinton’s view has been closer to Bush’s, which is to see Musharraf as the linchpin but democracy as something that is desirable, but not necessarily essential to our security interests,” said Rice, “Whereas Obama feels that democracy and human rights in the context of Pakistan are essential to our security.” so it's hard to say what role Obama actually advocates.
May 12, 2008 3:01 AM | Reply | Permalink
No it isn't. He wants to stop propping governments up and interfering in internal affairs.
You know, 14 points and all that.
May 12, 2008 8:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
A year ago my position was:
1) I didn't support an HRC candidacy, because
a) she f'd up the healthcare assignment, her one official job for the administration of her husband;
b) her high negatives made me believe she would be unelectable, bringing out the GOP base in a way no other candidate would;
c) I disliked the idea of caroming dynasties--Bush/Clinton/Bush/Clinton; and
d) I had very little faith that she stood for anything but personal gain.
2) I was agnostic on the other mainstream candidates. At one point I took one of these online quizzes and found my political positions lined up most closely with those of Christopher Dodd. Having attended high school in Delaware I was intrigued by the prospect of Joe Biden. I laughed in nodding agreement with a Salon article that said the vast majority of progressive Dems probably should be backing Kucinich (whom my dear sister supported in the 2004 primaries) but of course we won't because we believe he has no chance. I liked what Edwards was saying about poverty and other elements of his populist message.
3) But I was also very, very interested in Obama. Despite my sympathies with Edwards' populism I consider myself a pragmatist and tend to dislike messages of polarization and us/them discourse. His message of trying to forge a new national consensus touched me very deeply. I had appreciated Obama's 2004 convention speech, and I read Obama's speech to evangelicals (I think it was back in 2006) and marveled at what he had to say there, too. (And found myself highly irritated at folks on the left who trashed him for that speech.) I thought remarks he made in Milwaukee the night of the Va. Tech massacre were sensitive and well put. His biracial status was a plus--it would have gotten him nothing in my mind if he hadn't demonstrated a basic sensibility and temperament that spoke to my highest political ideals, but considering that he had done so already, his race was, frankly, a plus.
In time my support for Obama congealed, although at that point it was cloaked in a fundamental assumption that, "it would be cool if he won, but he probably can't pull it off" and that by the time the Wisconsin primary arrived I'd have to choose between Edwards and Hillary (no difficulty there). Foremost, I wanted to be sure we picked someone who could win.
Then Obama won Iowa, and I signed on emotionally as I had not yet done up to that time. Only after that time did I get around to reading the Sullivan piece in the Atlantic (although I'm a regular reader of his blog) and found that the arguments he made for BHO resonated very strongly with me.
May 11, 2008 10:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
I was one of those disengaged people that didn't used to bother voting because I didn't really see the point. I don't really know when I started to pay attention to what was taking place but I started to become really disturbed by some of Bush's policies. Abroad as well as at home. It also bothered me that things could never get done in DC because the Democrats and Republicans were always at a deadlock and it didn't really make a difference when the Democrats had the majority. Obama got my attention when he declared that he would be willing to talk to Iran. Finally, someone willing to talk with America's enemies. Then, I was drawn in further when he used inclusive language for Republicans. And he showed that he was more than willing to work with Republicans and that he has worked with Republicans to get stuff passed. It was just really refreshing to see someone who is willing to work with others that don't necessarily have the same point of view but is open. So, I've been volunteering and donating my time and money ever since to try to get him elected.
May 11, 2008 10:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama: willing to talk to The Islamic Republic and The republican Party
May 11, 2008 11:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
my reason is a little closer to my heart than video games, i have two children a son and a daughter, and they are biracial like Obama. So at first i have to say it was that, the idea that i could show my children that finally in america the saying you can grow up to be president of the USA included them. then as the campaign went on my choice was reinforced by the absolute brilliance of this man and his vision of America. i wish sen. clinton had run a more honorable campaign so that my daughter would have had a better role model but i know that day is also coming.
May 11, 2008 10:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
I chose Obama the first week of November, two months before the voting began, and I chose him because I saw a speech of his on Youtube and I realized, wow, a conscious and sentient person finally is running for President. I thought - he hasn't got a prayer against the do-or-die Clintons and their insider advantage, but I would stick by him until disillusionment set in and vote for Hillary when she inevitably swept the primaries.
And then something funny happened in Iowa...
May 11, 2008 10:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
I flippped a coin. Hillary lost that is why I am supporting her.
May 11, 2008 10:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
You're being flippant. Ha! Sorry.
May 11, 2008 11:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama has been my state senator for many years then subsequently my US senator.
Two specific incidents started my support for Obama.
His Call to Renewal speech given in 2006 showed how he can bridge the divide between democrat and republican, secular and religious, and shows he has a deeper understanding of the American psyche which will allow us all to heal.
Transcript here:
http://obama.senate.gov/speech/060628-call_to_renewal/
Video Here:
http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid463869411/bctid416343938
His ethical standards, not only in his own life, but in his public life as well, has led him to fight tirelessly for sunshine and accountability.
If anyone has been reading TPM long enough, you know that corruption, cronyism and corporate influence will be America's downfall if it is not exposed and pushed out of "our" government.
http://obama.senate.gov/issues/ethics_and_lobbying_reform/
There are very few decent people willing to get into politics, still less are able to navigate the sea of Washington. It would be a great loss to America if he is not given the chance to serve us as President.
May 11, 2008 11:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
LOL many? How long is many to you?
May 11, 2008 11:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
That would be seven or eight years as state senator. And I do believe that's longer than Hillary has been in elected office.
May 11, 2008 11:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
Eight, apparently.
I think the Bush administration has proven just how long eight years can be.
May 11, 2008 11:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
Jinx!
Now you owe me a soda. Luckily I don't like soda, so now you owe you a soda.
May 11, 2008 11:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
That's really strange. I'm not a big fan of soda either.
May 12, 2008 12:01 AM | Reply | Permalink
Longer than Hillary has held elected public office. 8 Years as a state senator before he was elected to the US senate. And he got elected with no connections and an unusual name. He was elected on merit alone, not a "brand name".
May 12, 2008 9:38 AM | Reply | Permalink
Got elected on merit? Didnt the Republicans run Alan Keyes against him? I could have beaten Alan Keyes!
No slight against Senator Obama, I think with the right people around him, he will make a good president, but to say his election was somehow meritous, not hardly.
May 12, 2008 10:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
That he got the democratic nomination for the senate was the "on merit" part. He was a long-shot at best well before Keyes came into the picture. See balheadeddork's comment below.
May 12, 2008 11:10 AM | Reply | Permalink
I am an American living in Japan. When I looked at the info on wikipedia, it was August of 2007. I wasn't paying much attention to the news, and was not at the time in any way involved in politics. I looked at the wikipedia pages for the three frontrunners at the time, Clinton, Edwards and Obama.
Choosing Obama seemed obvious. I think it was a combination of his bio and his voting record. And a quote about how he came to the Christian church. I am an atheist, but the quote got me thinking, and I liked that. So I became an Obama supporter, and got more involved in politics, and started following the news alot more closely.
I have been really impressed with Obama's conduct throughout the campaign. I trust him to tell the American people the truth, even when it is difficult, and that is rare in a polititian.
I am puzzled by those who characterise him as a smooth talking car salesman, 'cause that is not my impression of Obama at all.
May 11, 2008 11:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
Take a look at the NYTimes article on Nuclear Leaks.
May 12, 2008 12:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Take a look at the NYTimes article on Nuclear Leaks. Obama lies a lot but is very smooth about it.
May 12, 2008 12:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Totally cliche, but for me it started with the 2004 National Convention speech. Obama's content, the way he framed his arguments, his diction, his charisma -- all made me think, here's someone who can combine the "intellectualism" of an Al Gore with the personal connection of a George W. Bush. Here's someone who can make intelligence an asset in national politics again. Then I spoke with my grandmother who lives in Illinois, and whom I consider the ultimate swing voter, since she's voted for Nader and for Bush in the two previous elections, and she was excited about Obama. From it was a gradually increasing commitment level, as the information I gathered (from Lawrence Lessig's slideshow to Obama's speech on faith) generally backed up my initial impression: this is someone who can win the presidency, and who, in doing so, would not only pursue policies that make sense, but would do so with a calculated, nuanced intelligence and the ability to inspire "ordinary" people.
May 11, 2008 11:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Why is he better than your own parties Candidate?
May 11, 2008 11:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
Interesting question. Had to blink a couple times when I first read it; took a minute before I even knew what you were talking about!
I guess the answer is that I consider myself more closely aligned with Democrats on many issues than with Greens, so I don't really feel like I have a candidate from "my" party to compare. I register Green because I believe strongly in the importance of environmental advocacy and because I think it's important to give voice to some of their ideas, even the ones with which I disagree.
Also, I'm not sure the Greens have selected a 2008 candidate yet, which makes the question a little difficult to answer. If we assume it'll be Nader, he's basically lost all credibility with me. Also, after the last seven years, I think it's absolutely critical to get a Democrat in the White House in 2009.
May 12, 2008 12:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
They wouldn't take Nader, so he's running independent. This year, I believe they're backing Gravel.
May 12, 2008 8:10 AM | Reply | Permalink
Would love to know from you why the Greens actually separate themselves out and then pretty much end up voting Democratic most of the time. I know its probably not always that way but it sure seems like it. To me the Greens seem like a disgruntled splintered group from the main Democratic Party. I guess what I am asking what issues are Green separate from Democrats on?
May 12, 2008 9:03 AM | Reply | Permalink
LVille,
I can't answer this quickly, and right now I don't have time... But I promise I'll come back to this thread and write a reply this evening.
May 12, 2008 11:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks
May 12, 2008 12:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hi Louisville1975,
If you're interested, check out the Green Party's own list of issue differences. In general, they favor more dovish, more socialist, more socially liberal, and stronger environmental policies than the Democrats, but are certainly much more aligned with Democratic positions than with Republican ones. In some ways, I think looking at the Green Party as a disgruntled Democratic splinter group makes sense, but that over-simplifies the situation a bit. When it comes to national elections, I think the voting patterns of Green Party members can be best understood as a short-term/long-term balance of interests. Those who feel that the longer term interests of promoting a more pacifist, socialist, anti-corporate agenda are more important won't vote for a Democrat in a national election; but those who feel that the near-term interest of (to use 2008 examples) ending the war in Iraq as soon as is practical and improving access to health care are so important that they outweigh the other concerns will vote for a Democrat.
Though, now I'm over simplifying a bit. Like anything, there's a spectrum at play, and there's certainly overlap between the more politically traditional Green Party members and the progressive wing of the Democratic party, and individuals place more emphasis on certain positions and values than on others.
The Greens also support electoral changes that would support more expression of third (and fourth, and fifth) parties in the political structure, which, of course, the entrenched Democratic and Republican hierarchies generally oppose. I guess another aspect that short term/long term dichotomy I mentioned earlier is that staunch Green Party members tend to be people who believe that change to policies and our political structure can be better effected by exerting external pressure than working within the existing power structure.
For me, party affiliation is based on three factors: (1) I was raised that way, so even as my views have shifted more "mainstream", I still support some of the basic principles; (2) I believe that a stronger Green presence puts more pressure on Democrats to consider progressive values; and (3) there a few specific policy areas that are important to me and on which I'm aligned more closely with the Green platform than the Democratic one: environmental protection and equal rights (specifically LGBT rights, as Dems are generally strong in supporting other groups).
It'll be interesting to see how the Green Party vote plays out. I know that seven years of GWB have made me about a hundred times more motivated to make sure we don't end up with another Republican administration, and I wouldn't be surprised if that's a common trend for Green Party voters.
Oh, and FWIW, I just checked the Green Party website, and it looks like their convention will be in mid-July. At the moment, Nader is in 2nd place for delegates, and the leading candidate is Cynthia McKinney.
May 13, 2008 12:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for the information Paige. I will take the time to go over it. I never took the time before...Think it might be time now.
May 13, 2008 11:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
The night that then IL State Sen Obama gave the keynote address to the 2004 DNC I listened and then used Google to find out all that I could about him. I read his speaches and articles from chicago news papers about his career in the state legislature and the biograpy on his campaign website. In a couple of hours of research I learned all I needed to know. I vowed that when this man ran for president as he surely would he would get more than just my vote.
I have folowed politics since elementary school but wasw always a spectator. I had never seen a candidate that inspired me to do more than vote. Obama made me vow to give my money and my time. I have lived up to that vow. I have already given more than I can afford and will give more. I took vacation to work for the campaign during the primary and will do so again for the general election. I spent my Saturday doing voter registration in public housing. I will not rest until McCain is defeated. Even then I will be ready to work and mobilize to convince my senators and representative that it is in their best interest to support president Obama's initiatives.
May 12, 2008 12:15 AM | Reply | Permalink
I was initially impressed with Obama but supported Edwards on policy positions. Though I had tremendous admiration for her intellectual and political skills, I was always leery of a Clinton nomination due to the hostility she provokes from the right and the voter motivations that would fuel.
When Edwards was basically ignored by the press and therefore the public, I easily gravitated to Obama. The more I learned of him the more I was struck by how this was a man made for the moment.
The progressive movement that has been growing since 9/11 with the anti-war issue, picking up health care, global warming, foreign energy dependence, constitutional abuse, torture, the Katrina failure, predatory lending, EPA failures, NAFTA and job outsourcing, divisive politics, media consolidation, etc., etc., etc., has been a movement in need of a leader. Not one to just work at politics as usual, but to recognize the depth and breadth of our discontent and speak to it. And not just speak to it, but organize and lead it. I think Obama is answering that call.
And I think the rest is up to us.
May 12, 2008 12:17 AM | Reply | Permalink
Btw, your comments about video games reminded me of this bit from the Music Man:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=LI_Oe-jtgdI
May 12, 2008 12:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
OMGTYSM Scalfin. I thought the same thing about the video game 'pander'. And I'm an old white woman, old enough that I am expected to support Clinton (at least according to the pollsters).
But, I play MMORPG's, so do my adult sons and we have each have an x-box.
This country is on the verge of bankruptcy and she wants to start up some branch of Homeland Security and hire Video Game Police to protect us all from ourselves Thanks, but no thanks..
Obama FTW!
May 12, 2008 12:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
Not quite, it was about enforcing ratings on games distribution so that young kids wouldn't buy objectionable material without parents' consent.
What exactly is your objection to this? While I have personal objections to the MPAA code for movies in terms of simplistic ratings for a complicated array of artistic and prurient movies, I tend to see less subtlety with the games terrain, where sex and/or violence play a more straightforward role in the game's ethos.
May 12, 2008 3:12 AM | Reply | Permalink
You should take a look at some of the movies made right before The Code was instituted.
May 12, 2008 8:14 AM | Reply | Permalink
So the Code took out artistry from games and pushed them into more stereotyped bins?
May 12, 2008 9:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
Let's just say they were a little more edgy before Hollywood banned ankles.
May 12, 2008 9:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
Ah, the movie Code, je compris. In any case, we've bounced back from those years, but there will always be content a majority of parents don't want shown to their kids. Those tastes will change over time, but doesn't change the basic principle.
May 12, 2008 11:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
I like the principal that says that the government has no role to play in setting those standards. Just as they have none in the MPAA ratings.
May 12, 2008 12:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
That's fine with me as well, but what happens when stores start ignoring the labels and selling adult content to kids, or game manufacturers start hiding adult content inside non-adult rated games, as was the case of the one game?
May 12, 2008 1:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Stores do not controll what my children buy. I do. If you do not there is no amount of regulation that can put you in controll. I do not expect retailers to enforce the ratings. They are a tool for me to use.
As for adult content hidden in a mature rated game, I could care less. I think that the policy of treating sexual content as adult and violence as mature is rediculous. Once a game is rated mature or adult that is just a clue that I need to investigate the game more before giving or withholding my approval.
May 12, 2008 3:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
They didn't hide it, they edited it out! What the people who pulled out the hot coffee mod did was the same as if someone figured out how to see the bodies under the sheets in a Bond sex scene.
May 12, 2008 4:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Like the flight simulator inside Excel. But they published the key to the info, so their editing/disabling was for nothing. Bad move. Actually good move for sales I'm sure.
May 13, 2008 12:54 AM | Reply | Permalink
I was once active and political, but had tuned out in disgust for most of the Bush presidency. You could say I was a success story for the Bush/Cheney "Disillusion as Many Americans as Possible" plan.
Obama was always in the back of my mind as a quaint possibility, but cynicism kept him from me for sometime.
I too am of mixed heritage. My mother is white and my father is a Filipino immigrant who worked the strawberry fields in the central coast of California.
One thing was constant: my vague and nagging suspicions of a Hillary Clinton candidacy.
When Obama won Iowa, my interest soared. I watched the NH debates and was pleased by his performance, as well as with Hillary's, knowing her to be a force with which to be reckoned. When the exit polls came out screaming an Obama win, I was optimistic, but then a bit deflated when Hillary's last emotional bid got her the win. I defended her moment as genuine, FWIW. I was now fully engaged.
Next, came SC. Bill's infamous comments threw me immediately, completely and unequivocally to Obama.
I cried watching his victory speech and immediately signed up on mybarackobama.com and raised almost $500 from a small group of family and friends. The rest, as they say, is history.
May 12, 2008 1:10 AM | Reply | Permalink
Since the Green Party hasn't had its convention yet, I can't answer this question in more detail.
May 12, 2008 2:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
For me, it was Richardson, Edwards, Obama, not necessarily in that order. Was excited about all three, the amount of excitement varying day by day. A pure toss-up at the end of last year.
I thought Clinton would be the nominee, which got me as excited as I felt when Kerry became the nominee.
Then my state of Michigan seemed to not matter. I voted for "Uncommitted." Obama made his rise. Saw his early speeches, early wins. He rocked the convention in 2004, but I had assumed he'd wait until next time. But no! Over the past few months it's been so obvious that he's honest, not pandering, not jerking chains nor reacting with knee-jerk partisanship.
The notion of video game positions guiding your judgement makes sense. It's the kind of pander you'd expect any politician to make. But it's pointless, as pointless as promising to police naughty rock or hip hop. As pointless as the gas tax holiday.
I didn't know Obama hasn't come out as a GTA hater. Thanks, Scalfin, for giving me yet another reason to like the guy.
I just sense that Obama is the real straight-talker.
May 12, 2008 2:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
But why Richardson? Why Edwards? You favoured them over Obama, so they were your favoured candidates.
May 12, 2008 8:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
I honestly couldn't make up my mind. Richardson has a lot of experience, and a variety of experience. Edwards because I like his style of populism, because I liked him more than Kerry, because I stood out in the rain to hear him speak in 2004. Obama because (this was my thoughts last year; my reasons have expanded) he was so freaking inspirational at the 2004 convention.
May 12, 2008 9:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
I started off enthusiastic about Clinton, Obama and Edwards. My first hint of a problem with Obama came in S. Carolina when he invited a rabid homophobe by the name of Donny McClurkin to MC his campaign's southern gospel tour. McClurkin has said that gays are a curse and are out to kill America's children. He used the tour to preach against gays. When the controversy erupted, Obama attempted to explain it away by saying he was only trying to bring gays and conservative Christians together. I saw it as pandering to black Baptist bigots. Next came Obama's assertion that Hillary had belittled Martin Luther King when she said that it took Lyndon Johnson to push through the civil rights legislation of the 1960's. I saw that as divisive and playing the race card in an attempt to drive a wedge between Hillary and her black supporters. Meanwhile Edwards' campaign never caught on. Gradually as more things came to light about Obama I came to the conclusion which I still hold, which is that Obama has many negatives and vulnerabilities including but not limited to Jeremiah Wright, and I sincerely believe Obama is unlikely to beat McCain. Meanwhile my respect for Clinton grew. I see her as the stronger candidate, and the one that would have beaten McCain. I hope to be proven wrong, but I am not expecting it.
May 12, 2008 4:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
You know Otto, as contentious as you like to be I am not surprised that you prefer Hillary. Thank you for your honesty, this explains a great deal.
May 12, 2008 4:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
He never made any such assertion. You are giving him credit for the statements of others whom he does not controll.
May 12, 2008 8:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
You know it is amazing how you can attribute real outrage among the American People and blame it on Obama. Let's revisit her statement shall we?
From MSNBC:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=7BB4Vvgn_4k
Hillary won NH on a combination move - Emotion, Fear Mongering and making a dubious analogy to MLK.
As far as her newest racial slurs. Listen to the audience at The Daily Show with Jon Stewart. It is not Obama gasping, it is the audience.
http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=168061&title=riggle-hillarys-americans
May 12, 2008 9:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
I should add that if Obama puts Hillary on the ticket I would once again be hopeful for a Democratic victory in November. If he does not I believe he will not capture that many Republican votes, and he will lose a considerable number of Hillary supporters.
May 12, 2008 4:10 AM | Reply | Permalink
Obama can easily find a running mate who appeals to the same demographic that she does without bringing all her baggage.
May 12, 2008 9:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
Right now, many people are still viewing the race in terms of Obama vs. Clinton. That won't last. Once she officially concedes, people will start comparing Obama to McCain. And I don't think McCain has a chance. He's hated by much of the Republican base, he's got tons of legal baggage, and his ever-evolving positions on nearly every issue make him an extremely weak candidate.
I've always believe that his only chance was for Hillary to get the Democratic nomination because she's such a polarizing force. Hillary would be reason enough for many Republicans to vote for McCain.
But admit it--your position on Obama has softened since the inevitability of his nomination has set in, right? He'll do just fine.
May 12, 2008 10:23 AM | Reply | Permalink
Obama got me at the 2004 convention. (That sounds awfully close to quoting Jerry MaGuire, sorry). I was bummed the first time I saw him on Meet The Press and he said that he was going to finish out his first term as Senator from Illinois. I was rather hoping he would bite the bullet and run - even though he didn't have the name recognition.
As the drumbeat chiding him to go ahead and run was building, I started paying very close attention. It became evident that John Kerry was instrumental in talking him into the immediacy of this whole endeavor, and that there would be substantial Democratic Party (basically the whole anti-Clinton crowd) support if he were to go against his previously stated position. Then he did it, through his hat in the ring. I have been hopeful for our future ever since.
May 12, 2008 4:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
I actually started off in the Hillary camp, with some interest in Edwards (but put off by his pretty boy looks and manner) and Obama and Biden (but didn't think either had a real chance). Hillary's performances in the early debates and Obama's lack of same hardened my preference for Hillary.
Obama started to win me over with his Jefferson-Jackson speech in Iowa and then with his win (and speech) in Iowa. I still liked Hillary but figured I could support Obama and started to believe he was for real. Then came South Carolina and the Clinton's decision to start poisoning the waters on race. She lost me then and Obama's incredible speech after he won that primary pulled me in hook, line, and sinker.
I still figured I could possibly live with Hillary after the more civilized debates around Super Tuesday but I was a solid Obama supporter. After Obama's February wins and the Clinton's going harshly negative in Ohio and Texas, I completed the turn and became a full-on Hillary hater. I wouldn't vote for her (or Bill) for dog-catcher now. Particularly the way they're continuing to try to burn down the house in 2008 now so she'll have one more shot in 2012 convinces me she should be committed or otherwise taken out of public view.
One candidate wounded but still appealing to our better angels. The other mortally wounded and turning into a Monty Python-esque comedy of horrors and appealing to our basest instincts. Obama may lose in November, but I sort of doubt it. And Hillary will never again get my support for anything. Too bad - she had a lot of potential.
May 12, 2008 7:23 AM | Reply | Permalink
OK, so it's not Monty Python, but it's Brazil:
May 12, 2008 7:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
Too bad that Brazil is more in tune with the current zeitgeist than anything Monty Python...
(Funny how one director can do both Python and Brazil though.)
May 12, 2008 5:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
I trust that this (and other similar sentiment others express) is simply venting understandable frustration at the Clintons.
I try to remain as pragmatic as possible about voting, and I can always imagine the possibility of a worse candidate. And I would certainly take Hillary over a worse candidate. And I believe McCain is a worse candidate. His aura notwithstanding, he's actually been formally reprimanded for impropriety (Keating 5), which so far Hillary has not. And their stands on many issues are so different, and I find Hillary's positions generally preferable, that in the highly unlikely event that she winds up with the Democratic nomination, I would vote for her over McCain easily. As, I hope, would most Obama supporters.
But given present political realities, I do firmly believe that Obama supporters would have much stronger reasons to hold a grudge against Hillary than Hillary supporters would against Obama.
May 12, 2008 1:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't have a TV but I remember going to someone's house in town to watch the Dem Convention and being completely turned off by the whole thing. It was a circus, not a convention. Yuck.
So then an election that was not properly contested in court in OH, just another problem like the 2000 election problem in FL. Yes, I firmly believe both elections were stolen.
But I could never vote for someone who promotes NAFTA. Before it ever passed Congress, I knew it was a terrible idea for labor and the environment. So Clinton was not an option. Screwing around with bimbos? Boy, if you're going to hold that against him you'd better rethink JFK.
So it couldn't be Clinton. And I'm her demographic, except that women's lib has always been wrong about what it was fighting for. (I see the whole movement as fighting for women to be able to have heart attacks at 55 like men. The movement should have been fighting for a 20-hr work week for both genders so children had parents. Now we have children being raised by daycare and nannies and everyone working way too much for their physical, intellectual and spiritual health.)
Then Iowa. This guy won, and I found myself looking at his Youtube victory speech. And he was saying things that sounded like they were honest. You gotta be kidding, this can't be real.
May 12, 2008 8:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
I think what influenced me the most to investigate and then support Barack Obama was the fact that his mother - his most important early influence - was an anthropologist. Have to admit to bias, since I'm one too. She was not an academic anthropologist but worked in applied development projects that were focused on empowering women. This type of nurturing is certainly a large part of the reason for Obama's world view, foreign policy perspective, and his feminism.
I'm tired of the ethnocentric, xenophobic rhetoric that is passed off as "debate" in this country, and is a driving force behind our position on the world stage.
Hopefully Obama can begin to change that.
May 12, 2008 9:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
I have been evaluating the political scene since the early '80's and view Ronald Reagan's presidency as the turning point when original American values became secondary and when any functional balancing of powers was forcefully and intentionally dismantled.
When Reagan did his power play against the air traffic controllers' union, he used the presidency to take out the power of the only organized force [labor] still strong enough to countervail against the power of corporate greed, such corporate greed gaining ascendancy within the military-industrial complex [warned about by Eisenhower] and holding power by the decades long focus on a 'cold war'.
Since the Reagan presidency, we have seen a sharp decline in the national government's willingness to invest in and further 'the common good'. Instead, we have seen the national government become functionally married to and only answerable to the corporate powers. In the 80's, there were about 1,000 lobbyists in Washington and today, there are more than 35,000 lobbyists in Washington.
A corollary development to maintain this unbalanced [against the common good] Washington power structure is the politics of dividing the electorate by wedge issues and emotional issues, to essentially divide and conquer the will of the masses, using the mass media to divert the public from the deeper problems suffered by the commoners.
Into this historical context comes a brilliant organizer who has done the one thing that can begin to change Washington and re-establish a better balance of power going forward. Obama has grown a mass movement of citizens, which is the only power we citizens could hope to have to alter the entrenched power of the elites who were given the keys to the kingdom by Reagan.
It signifies everything to me that Obama rightly says he needs all of us to work on the changes needed, i.e., that we have to do this together. That is so true.
It signifies everything to me that Hillary Clinton speaks only in terms of her being a 'fighter' on behalf of the little people......and that she will alone 'take on the powerful interests' if only we choose her. That is so unreal as to be laughable, in light of her compromises about 'lobbyists' and especially in light of she and Bill adapting themselves into that unbalanced power structure elite category to the tune of 109 million dollars.
May 12, 2008 9:23 AM | Reply | Permalink
I think Ronald Reagan's main contribution to American politics was testing and proving the theory that politicians can lie without apology to the American people and get away with it.
May 12, 2008 10:17 AM | Reply | Permalink
I started a Hillary supporter (mostly based on my admiration for Bill's Presidency). I liked Obama early but didn't think he had a prayer against the Clinton machine. I listened to all of the candidates & believe any one of them would be an immense improvement over Bush. Along the way I started reading about the candidates & surprisingly the more I read about Obama the more there is to like. The more I read on Hillary the more I saw a record of political opportunism & pandering that didn't square with my views. As much as Obama won me over, Clinton lost me with some of the things she's said & done & the horrible way she's run her campaign.
May 12, 2008 10:04 AM | Reply | Permalink
I originally supported Chris Dodd, and I continue to believe that he was possibly the most qualified candidate in the race (when he was still in the race). I switched to Obama when Dodd dropped out. Obama was always a strong second choice for me because I believe he has an altruistic spirit and a basic trust in and respect for his fellow man. And I like the idea that he's leading an insurgency against the power elite in Washington. His populist approach to politics makes sense to me, and I agree that if a president doesn't have a wide mandate from the people, it's very difficult to get any major work done. I believe Obama will use the huge voter database he has built whenever necessary to nudge Congress in the right direction on policy initiatives.
I've never considered voting for Hillary Clinton. I see the Clintons as a divisive force, both in the Party and in the country at large. I don't believe Hillary would be a good or effective president.
May 12, 2008 10:14 AM | Reply | Permalink
Please go into Dodd more.
I tend to believe that favoured means out of the whole field, as in who you would vote for if it was wide open (well, maybe not that much, but this is the simplest way of putting it).
May 12, 2008 5:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
I favored Richardson for his executive experience as governor and foreign policy work under the Clinton Adm. But what eventually got me to look much more closely at the Obama campaign was the fact that he opened an office here in Boise.
I drove by the office every day with its bright signs on the windows and at first I was dumbstruck. Idaho, the state that national Democrats had written off, the state that overwhelmingly voted for Bush twice, the state where Democrats were used to getting beaten up in the state legislature...and Obama opened up an office, with a paid staff!
My husband and I visited the office took as many of the informational brochure as possible. We also talked with the volunteers, some of whom had come from different parts of the country. We went to several meetings and people of all ages showed up--17 year old high school volunteers to a group of ladies in their 70s who brought food and treats for the phone bank operators.
But what ultimately hooked us was Obama's visit to our city. No other Democratic candidate made the journey and that was an important distinction. For many of the 14000 of us, crowded into the stadium, it was the first time that Democrats and sympathizers saw each other. The 50 state strategy was at work that day.
Finally, Obama did not constantly play defense against the Republicans. Democrats have been on the defense for decades and we have allowed the Right and the Republicans to frame the debate and the issues. Obama's confidence about this country, its potential and promises, and his work on reshaping the electorate and bringing into the Democratic fold new people are not only inspiring but more practically, it gives me a sense that things will get done.
May 12, 2008 10:24 AM | Reply | Permalink
I started to follow and like Obama during his 2004 senate race.
The Chicago Tribune was my daily paper, so I had a daily recap of the insanity in both races. It was easily the most FUBAR'ed contest I'd ever seen. It's not an exaggeration to say the Democratic nomination fell to him. Blair Hull had more money than anyone else and the lead for most of the race and Dan Hynes was a child (literally) of the Chicago machine. But Hull had some domestic abuse history he wouldn't come clean about, and Hynes didn't have much to offer beyond his name. If either had been competent Obama wouldn't have stood a chance. Just getting the Dem nomination was a lottery ticket in itself, but then the Republicans imploded and Alan Keyes moved in from Maryland to take their nomination. I remember thinking many times through the spring and summer of 2004 that this Obama was the luckiest SOB on earth.
But I started to notice Obama's substance in the car wreck coverage of that race. His speech on Iraq in 2002 was a breath of fresh air. Then I found the old Chicago Reader story about his work as an activist and his decision to get into politics. I also really like how he campaigned in the general. He and David Axelrod got into a car and drove through countless small towns downstate that summer, before the speech at the DNCC made him famous, stopping and walking the sidewalks to introduce himself and talk with voters. It was unheard of for a Chicago Democrat to do that, and against Keyes it was totally unnecessary. But I like that it showed he wasn't just running to be the Senator of Democrats from Chicago. He won almost all of those rural counties, too.
I think what locked it up for me is when Obama stood up to the Daley machine and did not block the re-nomination of Patrick Fitzgerald to be the US Attorney for the Northern District of Illinois. That took stones. All this happened in the first six months after Obama took office in Washington. Dailey desperately wanted Fitzgerald to go, and it was widely believed that Obama was threatened with a primary challenge in 2010 if he didn't push for a new appointment. Republicans had their own reasons for wanting Fitzgerald to go, of course. All of this meant was the only one who could push Fitzgerald out at the end of his term was Obama because he was the only one with clean hands. When Obama refused to play along, Fitzgerald got his second term. Daley was said to be beyond furious.
Something to remember about the whole improbable rise of Barack Obama. The only reason it happened is because Karl Rove pushed the incumbent Republican Senator Peter Fitzgerald into retirement for not being sufficiently loyal to the Bush White House and Denny Hastert. Senator Fitzgerald only quit the Senate because Rove promised to have the WH back a primary challenger against him, which would have cost the self-financing Fitzgerald tens of millions of dollars out of his pocket. If Fitzgerald had stayed in the race, he probably would have won.
May 12, 2008 10:33 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for the close-up view from Illinois! Very illuminating.
May 12, 2008 4:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
The Iraq vote. One reason why I didn't support Hillary from the beginning.
Hillary pissed me off with her Iraq vote and lost my support completly with her snobbish refusal to apologize and more importantly admit that Iraq vote was her greatest politicl mistake.
Also, I noticed her moving to the right of the war and foriegn policy issues in the earlier debates (she took primaries for granted and began positioning herself for the general) From the beginning it was clear Hillary was a big NO. It obviously became clearer nd clearer down the road.
Hence I had to look elsewhere. How I ended backing Obama I will get to that later.
May 12, 2008 11:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
Otto....
Interesting perspectyive.
But as a gay man... I can never forget what the Clintons did in the 1990's.
My generation will always be haunted by DONT ASK DONT TELL. It was a sham policy and I felt that Clinton threw his gay supporters under the bus.
And I will never never never forgive Clinton for signing the Defense of Marriage Act. I know a veto would have been overturned... but it was a matter of principle. That act will prevent marriage rights for gay people for multiple generations.
And before you say that was Bill, and not Hillary... Hillary doesn't get to claim the victories of Bill and not get burdennd by the failures.
I simply don't trust Hillary's gay rhetoric. I've heard it all before, and it was all a sham. I prefer Obama's measured and controled steps when it comes to gay issues and policy. baby steps will get you to your objective. Obama isn't going to delive the "whole enchilada" but he isn't promising the whole enchilada. Hillary is promising the whole enchilada and is going to deliver nothing in the end... just like Bill.
That kept me from ever supporting Hillary, and Obama's message inspired me.
Any time a gay peron starts ranting about Obama and how great the Clinton's are...all I say is DONT ASK DONT TELL and DEFENSE OF MARRIAGE ACT. It's an ugly and horrible legacy on gay issues.
May 12, 2008 11:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
I love this thread.
I first came to Obama because I read The Audacity of Hope last summer. I wasn't following the primary race closely yet. I hadn't seen the 2004 convention speech because I don't like political speeches. (One lesson learned from Reagan - don't trust a silver tongue.)
But I kept hearing things about this Obama guy, so I bought his book. I was astounded. He wrote honestly and thoughtfully and intelligently. He presented a world view that I truly respected. Not one I agreed with completely (I don't like religion, for example), but one that I could respect. The book demonstrated integrity, a coherent set of principles on which he based his life.
I was wildly impressed and yet not sold on his chances for the presidency. I thought he might be too naive. I feared people wouldn't accept him. Right up until Edwards announced he was dropping out, I was torn between Obama and Edwards. On Super Tuesday, I caucused for Obama and was pleased and excited when he won my state, but I still didn't really think he would get the nomination.
And then, he kept winning. He responded with grace to everything that came at him. By the end of February, I started to believe. And then there was NAFTA-gate and mud and Wright, and again, he handled it all. And he gave a speech that actually restored my faith in speeches.
Everything that has happened this primary season has strengthened my faith in Obama, and I am astounded to find myself excited about a presidential candidate.
May 12, 2008 12:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama on September 6, 2005 about Katrina
" There's been much attention in the press about the fact that those who were left behind in New Orleans were disproportionately poor and African American. I've said publicly that I do not subscribe to the notion that the painfully slow response of FEMA and the Department of Homeland Security was racially-based. The ineptitude was colorblind.
But what must be said is that whoever was in charge of planning and preparing for the worst case scenario appeared to assume that every American has the capacity to load up their family in an SUV, fill it up with $100 worth of gasoline, stick some bottled water in the trunk, and use a credit card to check in to a hotel on safe ground. I see no evidence of active malice, but I see a continuation of passive indifference on the part of our government towards the least of these."
This told me all I needed to know. He would not take the race baiting, he could recognize the failings of the system, and his response would include ALL of those effected, not just a narrow community.
May 12, 2008 12:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
'the least of these' ...
C'mon, everybody knows what Jesus 'really' meant ... no way it means that we should view New Orleans the same as any other American city. Or implies that we had any responsibility to act accordingly.
"Whatever you neglected to do unto one of these least of these, you neglected to do unto Me" is just New Testament boilerplate.
Everybody knows that.
May 12, 2008 1:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
My support for Obama is predicated on several factors.
1. I used to work in the local political/government arena, and so my own philosophy of leadership was heavily influenced by those experiences. I am always keenly interested in "what makes people tick" and so spent a lot of time observing those individuals in leadership and support staff roles who seemed to be particularly effective and well-respected, and from those observations I developed a sense of what qualities they seemed to have in common. Because I live in a very diverse community I had an opportunity to observe women and other minorities in leadership roles, and what they did to transcend the usual perceptions, biases, barriers that go along with that. I also live in a community that has a very active citizen involvement (in fact I had some community liaison responbilities) so I've seen what a difference an inclusive, collaborative leadership style can make in a community.
2. I read Obama's first book right after he came to national attention at the 2004 Democratic Convention, and I was very impressed with his life story (at least as it stood at the time the book was published, before he entered public office). I was very impressed with his writing which revealed a high level of intelligence, but combined with warmth and humor that suggested this is a person who has achieved a real balance in life. I admire that quality in people.
3. I've since followed Obama's career, his speeches and his writings, and though I think I'm realistic in assessing his missteps and gaps in experience, he also most closely embodies the qualities and leadership philosophies that I look for. I have no crystal ball to predict how he'll actually perform as president, but then neither does anyone else, so I do look at other factors in his background, as well as the way he and his staff has managed his campaign. I don't expect perfection or infallibility, but I do look for an ability to learn quickly from mistakes, I look for how a candidate grows and evolves through challenges.
4. Although I was initially willing to support Hillary as a close second choice, I have been increasingly disappointed in her and her surrogates choices and rhetoric. I'm in her demographic group (I'm a white middle-aged grandma) but she has fallen short in my estimation, in a number of ways. I truly wish she had a better sense of herself, and I also wish she would have made the choice a difficult one for me.
May 12, 2008 1:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
What he said!
May 12, 2008 1:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama has been my first choice all along for two main reasons:
One, his consistent opposition to the War in Iraq (I was personally opposed to it from the start as well, and have a hard time getting past the votes to authorize it); and
Two, the fact that he taught Constitutional Law at one of this country's premier law schools. The Constitution is going to need a lot of expert TLC, and not just partisan patchups, in this next administration.
The fact that he's a great motivator and a great speaker is icing on the cake.
May 12, 2008 2:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
I began by looking at who had the foresight to not support the Iraq invasion, and that narrowed it down to three candidates, only one of which was a real candidate, Obama. FYI Richardson was not opposed too invasion when it began as evidenced by some on-air quotes in the 2 weeks before the invasion (Google Richardson cheerleading Iraq War).
May 12, 2008 3:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
Who were the other two, and who would you have supported in an open race and why?
May 12, 2008 5:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
I wrote: "I wouldn't vote for her (or Bill) for dog-catcher now."
Fosberry responded: "I trust that this (and other similar sentiment others express) is simply venting understandable frustration at the Clintons.
I try to remain as pragmatic as possible about voting, and I can always imagine the possibility of a worse candidate. And I would certainly take Hillary over a worse candidate. And I believe McCain is a worse candidate."
I bounced this around a LOT when I was concerned that Hillary might actually get the nomination. And I honestly don't know how I'd feel by November. But my feeling now is that I couldn't vote for either Hillary or McCain. Which I know is a cop-out on some level. I couldn't vote for McCain on policy grounds. I could easily vote for Hillary on policy grounds, but I don't know that I could reward her (and Bill's) behavior in this campaign with my vote. I feel like they've descended to Nixonian and Rovian levels in this campaign. I expect the Republicans to disgust me and am never shocked by it (which is a big part of why they never get my vote). I'm pretty amazed and angry to see the same kind of crap in a Democratic primary.
Its very possible I'd calm down by November and vote for Hillary if she'd been the nominee. But its also very possible I wouldn't. I'm glad I won't have to find out.
May 12, 2008 5:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
If she got the nomination, you might actually start liking her style by November, as you can't deny that nobody pisses people off as effectively as Hillary, and McCain has a notorious temper. Things would become very nutty very fast.
May 12, 2008 5:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
Scalfin - are you perhaps of Canadian or British (or Aussie etc.) extraction? "Favoured" is not something Americans usually write...
BTW it's "affect". Both "effect" and "affect" can be used as either a verb or a noun, but unless you are in love with long words, "effect" is almost certain to be a noun and "affect" a verb.
May 12, 2008 5:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
No, I think I picked it up reading Sherlock Holmes and The Lord of the Rings in the sixth grade (although I may have started Holmes in the 5th).
May 12, 2008 8:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
Is the the one who said that? Wow! I remember noticing that someone said that, but having something else more important to do than noticing who it was.
Wow!
Yes.
May 12, 2008 6:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
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