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This post is not about elections or trolls. It was inspired/provoked by several factors:
1) A series of awful Clinton-hate posts in the recommended list, devoid of substance, objectivity, and journalistic value
2) An eloquent post by roo_P imploring bloggers, particularly Obama supporters, to produce thoughtful, positive posts
3) An excellent, insightful critique by dws which missed the recommended list entirely
4) A complaint by longtime cafe member, artappraiser, that the forum software is utilized for the masses to happily enjoy churning out whatever their heart desires and form their own in-groups where they then jeer or cheer within group
5) A post by Yoda Urbinato for the sole purpose of testing the maximum length of a post title, which nonetheless made the recommended list. (No disrespect to Yoda, who has produced many an excellent post.)
I've been feeling for some time that the quality of the cafe threads has been deteriorating. We still see terrific reader journalism from time to time, such as flyonthewall's latest, but they're becoming scarcer. Instead, we see anti-Clinton screeds, undigested links to videos and news items ("Obama snags another delegate"), and jokey meta-posts*. The reader posts, which used to require some talent and/or research to make the recommended lists, are starting to become indistinguishable from the comments, which require nothing more than a computer and too much time on one's hands. It's my impression that quality posts are still common, but they've been drowned out by the poorer ones. The cream is no longer rising to the top.
* I don't claim to be innocent in all this. Indeed, I have perhaps been a pioneer of the jokey meta-post, and I do love them dearly, but I recognize that they are of little interest outside a select crowd.
I see several factors behind these changes:
1) The quantity of posts has increased. Depending on traffic, a post may stay on the recent list for less than half-an-hour, not enough time for people to see and recommend it. In addition, some bloggers have become extremely prolific, posting multiple times per day (or even per hour). The first change is welcome, though it has some negative consequences. The second is not. Posting multiple times a day on a regular basis is kind of egoism, and it brings no value to the cafe.
2) Recommendations are more partisan. Traditionally, the cafe has tended to follow Josh Marshall's example of melding political passion with objective journalism. Lately, the former seems to have taken over. A pro-Obama post is far more likely to make the recommended list than a pro-Clinton post. Yes, because of the preponderance of Obama supporters, there are many more good Obama posts on the site, so it's not surprising that they outnumber the pro-Clinton recommended posts, but there have been many inferior pro-Obama posts that have no business on the recommended list and, were the word "Obama" replaced with "Clinton", would have quickly disappeared with barely a recommendation. Simply put, people have become more likely to recommend a post because of its political position than because of its journalistic merit.
3) Insiders have been creating "chat rooms". I am perhaps unintentionally responsible for initiating this trend. Several weeks ago, I dashed off a cranky criticism of the posts on the recommended list (all of which were far better than many of those that have been making the list lately) which I expected readers to ignore. Instead, it made the recommended list and quickly lost all focus as insiders used it to shoot-the-shit. Yoda Urbinato aptly labeled it the "Seinfeld thread": an entertaining thread about nothing. Since then, Seinfeld threads have appeared with regularity. The comedy threads--Fake Sinbad posts and troll competitions--have also contributed to the "chat room" trend.
What can we do about these changes:
1) Better technology. I hope that Andrew Golis will weigh in on planned changes.
a. The recent list and perhaps the recommended list could be made longer to make more posts available for more time. I should think that this would be be a trivial software change.
b. Display the number of recommendations in the list. I seldom go through the recent posts list unless I see a name that I recognize or a particularly intriguing title. But if I saw that a post had 10 recommendations but had not yet made the recommended list, I would more likely to read and recommend it, perhaps saving it before it disappeared.
c. More effective editor recommendations. Charles Gelman recommends reader blogs at the coffeehouse every few days, which often serves the purpose of highlighting posts that did not make the recommended list. But judging by the number of recommendations that such posts receive even after Gelman has highlighted them, I don't think that many people are reading them, especially those below the fold. I would like an editor recommendation mechanism that is more immediate and more visible. Perhaps an icon next to posts in the list or a third sidebar list of editor recommendations.
d. Daily post limits. I don't think that anyone should be allowed to post more than twice a day. Anyone producing more than that is probably not producing quality. A limit may also help people to think twice before they post the latest superdelegate endorsement, for example.
2) Better posting. We can take it upon ourselves to make efforts to post less frequently and only when we have something particularly important to say. This particularly applies to prolific posters (you know you are), news posters, and insiders. Because it's easier for "insiders" to get our posts on the list, it's especially important for us to take care not to abuse that ability by writing frivolous posts that make the list just because we like to slap one another the back. If a substantial post turns into a Seinfeld thread, that's fine. Uninterested outsiders don't have to read the whole thread. But let's at least avoid taking up spots on the list with posts that only appeal to us.
Just to be clear, I'm not advocating an end to snark. I consider satire to be a form of journalism which can be far more substantive than some of the tripe that passes for news. But let's try to avoid purely comedic posts, especially when the jokes are all "in" jokes. For example, daily back-to-back troll competitions are probably unnecessary. (I'm not naming names, but it rhymes with "Ballsburg". And yes, I realize that I have my own sins to expatiate on this score.)
A word on news posters. TPM eventually catches almost every piece of important news, so please don't rush to get out a link to Obama's latest speech. We'll see it. If you post it, that bare link will hang out on the recommended list for hours after the speech becomes old news. Worse, someone else may post about it at the same time, and then both links hang out on the list, blocking other worthy posts. But if you have something interesting to say about the piece of news you wish to share, some analysis or criticism, then by all means share. Your goal should be to write, not to scoop.
3) Better recommendations. This is perhaps the most important change we can make. People are going to post crap. We can't stop them. But we don't have to recommend them. And all the technology in the world won't help the recommended list if we continue to recommend poor quality posts. If you see a post that has little journalistic merit, don't recommend it. If you see a post that you strongly agree with or which is written by someone you like, you should be more, not less, critical. Remember that your natural bias in such cases will be to recommend, so ask yourself whether it really deserves your recommendation on its merits. Do not think of yourself as waging a battle to put more pro-Obama posts on the list or to make sure that everyone hears the latest news about so-and-so.
4) User recommendation thread. I've very hesitant about this one but wanted to throw it out for discussion. Earlier today, Chino Blanco linked to a set of reader posts that he recommended. I've done the same thing, both for other people's posts and, yes, to shamelessly gloss my own. I wonder if it makes sense for us to create a permanent thread where anyone can recommend this or that post, even their own. Essentially, this would serve as a parallel to Gelman's editors recommendations, but it would be more comprehensive and timely. The danger to such a thread would be that it would increase the control of insiders who know about it. If these insiders link and recommend judiciously, I think it would serve a good purpose, as Chino's post did this morning, but it could easily be abused. The question is whether it would establish an enlightened aristrocracy (in the ancient Greek sense of the word) or a corrupt oligarchy.
In any case, these are my thoughts. I hope that they stimulate a good discussion.


Comments (383)
One other think. articleman, California Paige, and I have been posting about our efforts to organize a fundraiser for Obama. I think that this is important work and worthy of taking up a recommended spot once a week, but I don't want to anger people with it, so please feel free to address it in this thread.
May 1, 2008 10:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks G. I think these ideas would be a great upgrade.
It seems like this is just another dynamic (deteriorating reader posts) that will change once we have a Democratic nominee.
We're at the same point as the MSM - there's nothing left to talk about except silliness or extremely partisan talking points.
I hope TPM listens. I would also strongly recommend that FlyOnTneWall posts get some sort of special treatment too. Fly provides a chance for meaty and reasoned political discussion and those posts need to be up on TPM for an extended period.
May 1, 2008 11:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think you're correct, to a point; hopefully the posting will become less vitriolic post-primary season. But...Some of the issues Genghis brings up are, I think, caused by TPM receiving more users than in the past (as evidenced by the rapid rate of "recent reader posts" cycling through) and the TPM Cafe technology not quite keeping up. (No offense intended here, TPM Folk, I work in web development so I know from plenty of first-hand experience that's a normal state.) Also, I'm new around here, so my assessment of the volumetric changes could be off.
May 1, 2008 11:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Whoah, weird simultaneous yoda-quoting.
May 1, 2008 11:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Seriously.
May 1, 2008 11:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
This is the kind of meaningless inside stuff that turns off people who come to the site for political discussion. Always the same posters controlling what and who gets recommended. And so often not political but self-stroking. You guys are going to be the end of TPM as more outsiders don't put up with it.
All Hail the Commissars. You've laid down the party line once again.
May 2, 2008 11:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
Cypher, I appreciate the charge of insiderism and have been trying to address it, even pushing back on some of my fellow insiders. Frankly, I'm not concerned abut TPM collapsing on itself from incestuousness. As far as I can tell, it grows every day. That said, I think that quality would diminish if it were controlled either by a gang of oligarchs or (on the flip side) by a mob of partisan hacks. I'm trying to come up with suggestions to avoid both and would welcome any positive suggestions that you have.
May 2, 2008 12:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
I was at Huffington for a long time. Many of us left because we could no longer have conversations with others (many others) as the postings began to slow down because of volume.
Watching TPM I see very clearly that many, many thoughtful bloggers start up and leave because they are not recommended
or want to be included in a clique. They come for politics, not an insider chat-room.
The only way to get a response on TMP is to suck up to the clique, which is disgusting, or to provoke and get others to push their own political discussions inside the the commentary.
Aggressive trolls, so to speak.
My suggestion is that there be chat rooms for various cliques so the rest of us can stay clear.
May 2, 2008 2:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think that's a bit strong. It helps to be known of course. That's because there are so many reader posts that no one sees them all. If I see someone I know and respect, I'm much more likely check out their post. To become known, you just have to post intelligently in the threads. Wiseass remarks is one way, I suppose, but most of us got started by simply participating in discussions. That's not "sucking up".
Which is not say that insiderism can't be a problem, just that you overstated the difficulty of getting "in". And the notion of confining people to "clique rooms" doesn't sound realistic or even desirable to me, though I could possibly see sectioning out the site content into additional divisions.
May 2, 2008 5:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Says the "outsider" with not a single post to his name. Way to lead.
May 2, 2008 9:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
I also think you are way off base. I've been on TPM now for a few months and I felt none of that when I got here. You want people to respond to your post, write something decent. It may be hit or miss, but looking at your profile you really don't have much personal experience to back up this claim.
May 2, 2008 10:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Cypher,
I think Genghis has started a great discussion below about posts and recommendations, including this caveat: "If you see a post that you strongly agree with or which is written by someone you like, you should be more, not less, critical."
I think there's a lot of interesting discussion on this thread about ways to improve the quality of recommendations (and prevent the kind of ego-stroking you're talking about) as well how to find a balance between building community and devolving into a cabal. I would also appreciate hearing your comments on any of those specific ideas.
Also, can you clarify what "kind of meaningless inside stuff" you're referring to? Are you talking about the original post, the fundraiser activity, the comment accidental simultaneous comments that Genghis and I both made, the content of the discussion downthread, or something more general?
May 2, 2008 2:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
The private dialogue between a small number of bloggers who carry on personal asides rather than a political discussion. Some of this is fine, but when it takes over so much space it prevents other postings.
Additionally, a small number of people recommend blogs of their friends no matter how stupid they are. The number of times i have watched interesting and important blogs go down with almost no recommends is astonishing. At the same time, the same people are posting the same stuff above.
Guess what. You can't count the number of interesting people you lose under this system.
This would work better is (1) there where named chat -rooms for cliques and (2) some programmed limitation on the number of blogs anyone person can post in a week.
May 2, 2008 2:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Cypher, I'm surprised that you criticized this post, since this concern is the exact reason why I wrote it, and I also cited insiderism as one of the causes.
I proposed 2) in the original post, and others, notably workerbee, has proposed 1) in the comments. So we're on the same page here I think.
May 2, 2008 3:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
I was only answering the question from above. And I'm not sure I've been criticizing your post. I pointed out the very instance of insider remarks. Elsewhere, I'm agreeing with you. Making comments in my own way.
May 2, 2008 3:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
I see. My misunderstanding. I think that there will always be jokes between people who known each other. If not I'll leave TPM. But I hope that this can coexist with plenty of non-insidery content. Not that people won't continue to get annoyed with one another sometimes. (And I do note that I've seen you riffing in the threads yourself.) Anyway, I appreciate what you've said.
May 2, 2008 3:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
That riffing was mean satire. Reflecting the kind of thing I saw throughout the site.
May 2, 2008 3:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm guessing you intended to say, "meant as satire" rather than "mean satire." If only we had that that preview functionality.... (And, FYI, I didn't realize your riffing posts were satire. Amazing how easy it is to lose shades of meaning when reading someone's text, without visual and verbal cues.)
May 2, 2008 5:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry to say that they were purposely mean because I wanted to see if, and who ,would join in. And I found out. Perhaps this seems a bad tactic, but I felt that there are some "respected" regulars on TPM who have cultivated the art of being mean, so I considered the long term plan of the posts useful. Perhaps it went too far. On the other hand, we wouldn't be talking about it had it not happened. I always intended to reveal it. I though that it might help stop the cultivated mean spirited stuff that goes on everyday . it's one of those "ends justify the means (sic) kind of deals.
May 2, 2008 5:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see anything that was particularly mean. Except for when you told me change my shirt. That really stung.
May 2, 2008 6:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
worse, I called you "dude"
May 2, 2008 6:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
And I agree that a preview function would help me a lot, as my fingers are not connected to my somewhat dyslexic brain.
May 2, 2008 5:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
How do you know who is recommended what?
May 2, 2008 9:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
You're blind!
Like I should listen to a blind body-less head.
No, I don't think so.
May 2, 2008 6:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
Certainly, this is a low point, but I'm not confident that things will get better on their own until after November. I expect that the bete noir will just switch from Clinton to McCain and the Republicans. Indeed, it may get worse. Obviously, I'm happier to see McCain skewered than Clinton, but I would still prefer that the skewering be substantive.
May 1, 2008 11:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, I almost didn't click on this because of the drivel you've been putting out lately. Glad to see you've turned a corner. Your ideas are worthy.
I was getting sick of the Cutesy Joke Posting Olympics that were appearing in the middle of serious threads. I can ignore silly blogs, but it was really bothering me to find junk like that in the middle of thoughtful commentary.
May 2, 2008 10:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
I agree with CVille Dem and would also point out, that with these two very crucial primaries coming up in a few days, TPM posters should be writing about issues. They should also be encouraging many voices and views in the blogs.
There is also no question that a relatively small group controls the recommends by clicking on their friends, so many of the most thoughtful political voices only show up from time to time.
May 2, 2008 11:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
Interesting. I was concerned for the reader blogs, not the comments. IMHO the latter are often so far gone that they can only be answered by humor. That is to say, I no longer respond seriously to comments that lack good sense, which seems to be the majority these days.
You and I may also have different styles of debate. Whether in person or in print, I often pepper serious discussions with banter. I find that it's a good way to release the tension and encourage communication. And I think that some of us who participate in the banter have become much more capable of engaging in polite conversation with one another than we used to be. We have even developed a level of, dare I say, respect for one another.
That said, it's never my intention to derail serious discussions, and if you can point to examples of my doing so, I'm willing to examine them and reconsider my approach.
May 2, 2008 12:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
I may end up posting this more than once here, but although I enjoy the playful tone of our posts, and think there's nothing wrong with lightening up with a joke or friendly greeting here and there, I agree with Cypher that all the chat-room style exchanges in the middle of the page make it hard to track comments and responses.
I too have been a prime offender lately. I liked seeing so many stupid blogs for a while; it seemed like a little oasis of silliness. I usually recommend posts only when I believe someone else would be interested in some original thought. I'll try to restrain myself in the future.
May 2, 2008 7:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't know about that C. It seems that in an especially contentious thread pitting dem against dem, a little comedic relief is just what is needed.
I have to admit idiotic shows up at the most opportune moments.
May 2, 2008 6:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Good to see this, Genghis.
But all the points you make are exactly the ones that have driven many of us, who used to post here before, away from the Cafe!!!!
If you think posts have deteriorated since you've been posting, I tell you they deteriorated as soon as the new software went up! And went downhill from there.
The Cafe had a quality product. Which it has lost for the most part.
Your recommendations are excellent. But really, what you're hoping for is a return to what was already there. And sadly, the changes have simply resulted in many, many excellent posters leaving the Cafe.
It has been a very sad thing to see the Cafe give itself a mortal wound through these changes.
Perhaps it can be revived. But it has been a foolish and shortsighted way of making changes, which were billed as "better" but in fact have been like introducing a cancer into what was a very functioning and vibrant community.
We've all been asked to be patient. But it's now 3 months!!!
May 2, 2008 11:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
Another problem. Our old posts!!! Where are they???
Just last week, I believe, we were promised - AGAIN - that our posts would show up!!!
Where are they?
May 2, 2008 11:29 AM | Reply | Permalink
Hey Thera,
Good to see you. Andrew just put up a post. They have our blog archives but need more older TPMers to beta test them before they go live.
Here is Andrews link posted today. Hopefully you'll have your content back soon. (cross fingers) :)
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/05/02/we_need_you/
May 2, 2008 6:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Bless you!! I have now joined the "testing." Had you not written that, I would never have known!
May 2, 2008 8:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Good grief!!!
Please tell Howard, cscs and the other oldtimers....
Josh needs you. Come back. Hissy fits don't help anyone. You could TPM cafe. Still. What do you think people come here for?
Just.
Do.
It.
May 2, 2008 8:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
Maybe you should just recommend that TPM adopt the same software/interface that Newsvine uses (or used, I have been there in a while.) It had loads of bells and whistles including spellcheck, other editing features, chat, private groups, and more. Newsvine allows readers to "seed" (their term, not mine, for linking to existing articles that the staff may not have posted yet. Worth noting that Newsvine subscribed to AP, and is now a part of MSNBC)and of course you can blog to your hearts content on what is essentially your own "homepage."
I have no idea how anything get to be "recommended" or by whom, so I'm surprised to see a couple mine make it to the recommend list. (One thing I have noted is if you check the boxes for Muckraker or ElectionCentral, you get nada.)
As with all social news sites, you get the good and the bad. You get meta-stories about how liberal or biased or conservative or snarky the site is, or particular people are, or how great things were back in the good old days when all these "new people" (like me)weren't screwing things up for the rest of "us" (like you.)
May 2, 2008 5:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
G, I love your shirt. The pink and the red is much better for your skin tone than the green.
How full of testicular fortitude you are to take on parameters for how free, free speech might be in a decidedly free forum. Thank you for taking the time and being this thoughtful. Unfortunately those who do not agree with you are not likely to care about the concerns for functionality and useage not being divorced from each other.
May 2, 2008 8:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
This is a great list, Genghis. We're working on a lot of this. Let me digest this more tomorrow (when I'm not half asleep) and get back to you?
I don't want to over-promise in terms of timing, cause we're working on a lot at once, but we've been thinking in this exact same vein and I think you have a lot of good ideas.
Do other folks agree? Any other ways we could make this stuff better?
May 1, 2008 11:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'd say that Genghis nailed it pretty well from my view. It seems that either limiting the number of posts per day or at least throttling them would make an immediate and noticeable difference. Also, I think that a preview or even an edit feature would help with respect for eliminating many of the "do over" posts. While I'm thinking of it, thanks for fixing the login problems and eliminating the post/comment lag time.
May 1, 2008 11:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hate to say this, but the login problem is back -- at least for me it has been, for the past couple days. I get kicked out, sign in, it rejects my PW, I sign in again and it works. Same as before.
May 1, 2008 11:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
I second this... I just posted for the first time a few days ago and wished there was an edit feature.
May 2, 2008 12:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
An easy change would be to increase both the recommended and recent lists to 20 posts. Combined with Genghis' suggestions, I think that would help.
May 1, 2008 11:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
That was one of my recommedations, Ben. Don't make me ask Josh to remove you from the thread.
PS I liked your adventures in avatar resizing but it would have been more entertaining to see some horizontal or vertical compression.
May 1, 2008 11:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'd like to see the number of replies an article has, in addition to the number of recs.
How about a "sandbox" area, like electioncentral and muckraker (and don't allow posts to be added to more than one area). The idea of the sandbox area would be to give the joke/meta/chatroom articles an appropriate place.
May 1, 2008 11:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
You had me at Ballsburg.
May 1, 2008 11:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
You had me at "You had me"
May 1, 2008 11:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Meta.
May 1, 2008 11:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
We have created a layer of Purgatory where Rene Zellweger eternally chases her own tail.
May 2, 2008 4:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
I don't know--Fallsburg's gonna be really pissed if he sees this.
May 2, 2008 12:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
fallsburg is a huge troll.
May 2, 2008 1:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
Change your shirt!!
Oh. You are..
Just being snarky. I agree with everything you've written, but i don't want it going to your head.
I do try to read and help along decent Hillary posts. If I think someone posts crap and say so and don't recommend. You're right, it's gotten ugly. I guess I don't need to add to it, but sometimes it's ridiculous. I try not to pile on. Piling on sucks, too.
I ALWAYS recommend snark. No one is perfect.
:(
May 1, 2008 11:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
workerbee, I think snark is part of what makes this cafe great. BUT it does sometimes get in the way of a substantive discussion. The question is, what features might we advocate for that would help to make snarky/satirical posts available, but would still keep the substantive discussion clean? I was brainstorming an idea downthread -- wonder what you think.
May 1, 2008 11:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
I like your idea very much, but we used to have different areas.
They somehow didn't work very well, but that may have had something to do with the access.
It was a tab you clicked, then a heading with the most read post, I think and a paragraph, 6 or 8 topics on one spread, but it didn't make very good use of space, and to see a longer list you had to click again.
Maybe more of a rec list that could be seen easily and not so many different areas would work.
Like:
Election (Or hot topic)
(5 listings)
World
(5 listings)
Domestic
(5 listings)
Saloon (snark, TPM announcements, and what have you, ))
(5 listings)
Under Most Recommended. In the right column.
I hope that was sensical, long day.
May 1, 2008 11:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
How can you not recommend great snark? A good laugh is right behind a quality post (and sometimes a little bit ahead to be perfectly honest).
May 1, 2008 11:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Snark is like anything else. There is good snark and bad snark. Recommend the good snark, pass on the bad snark. (And I would add, good snark and funny snark are not equivalent.)
Sections are an interesting idea. But I worry about a snark section. Snark loses something if you put a big sign next to it saying "This is snark".
May 1, 2008 11:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
You know what that shirt loses when you put a big sign next to it?
Nothing.
May 1, 2008 11:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
Does it lose anything when you pour a beer down it?
May 1, 2008 11:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
On the contrary, it gains beer/
May 2, 2008 12:14 AM | Reply | Permalink
Well, we kinda have them, sorta. Muck, EC, and the cafe (Oh yeah, and horses mouth--how could I forget that?). Maybe there's too much overlap or the sections shouldn't be so um, nebulous?
May 1, 2008 11:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hrm. For some reason, I completely overlook Muckraker, Horse's Mouth, and Election Central, at least when I'm looking for reader posts. Perhaps it's a labeling issue, or maybe I'm just being a creature of habit, but "TPM Cafe" is where I go to talk to "real" people, and the other places are where I go to get current news and more professional commentary.
May 1, 2008 11:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, so we have categories.
The cafe has further categorie: warren reports, book club.... ...er
here:
* House Brew
* Special Guests
* TPMCafe Book Club
* Table For One
* The Coffee House
* Warren Reports
I guess it's because only front pagers get to use the categories.
So they kinda have them. Ever click on them?
This is what I mean by, it doesn't work really. I think the reader posts had their own separate catagories that were about as effective.
May 2, 2008 12:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
I've never understood how the Coffee House is different from the main TPM Cafe page. Sometimes they seem to have overlapping but not identical content, but maybe it's my imagination.
May 2, 2008 12:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
The "coffeehouse" would list only things that aren't in the other categories. Most of the Cafe content IS from the coffeehouse, but I suspect if you clicked on that link the stuff from the bookclub and warren reports wouldn't be there.
I could be wrong..
May 2, 2008 12:51 AM | Reply | Permalink
Re: Coffee House as a front page contributor category.
This was never explained to my knowledge, in 2 1/2 years here. I think it was a catchall bin for regular contributors who just wanted to opine on a topic that didn't fit into another topic. But I am just guessing! Because all the categories were always ill-defined. Tell me where it says on this site what the hell "Warren Reports" is! You have to figure it out yourself if you are a newbite. They never explained things here, it's not the tradition. :-) Chaotic growth according to what the members do and what contributors they could finagle to participate seemed to me to be the picture.
(The latter may tie in with what your post is about, the audience has always pretty much run the show here, and nothing has changed with that since all of you Election Central fans starting blogging at once en masse. Starting out the TPMCafe site, it was advertised as high signal-to-noise alternative to the forums available out there, better quality, and that drew a small group of people hungry for that, so hungry for that that they actually donated to start-up costs. Those initial members set a high tone of civility and they were given software tools to enforce that--better ones with Scoop than with the second software change of Drupal. I'm not going to say it was a complete success, as I think it did eventually go downhill, but the first year or so with Scoop was high quality content and a very high level of civility in the comments which newbies actually commented on in amazement. I know from being a moderator in the past elsewhere that this will not continue if you don't have management stepping in from time to time when things get out of hand, and that didn't happen often enough, and that's where the downward slide started. Water over the damn in any case--I give a quick summary just as it relates to your "audience responsibility" theme, it's possible, I saw it here once.)
Anyhow, back to those categories, they worked before this recent software change, that when you click on the links, you get all the contributor posts in that category. Since the software change, there's something wrong with it. (Looks to me like contributors are supposed to tick off a choice but they are not doing it?) The only ones I think people ever used to read that way were "America Aborad" and "Warren Reports."
The raison d'etre for that design was clearly that they would grow in contributors in several very different areas of interest. That didn't happen, the contributors all came to talk about politics, so it grew increasingly unnecessary. Mho, it's really stupid now for that reason, all the posts are on politics, all they need is a separate page link for Book Club, and for all the rest, a "next page" link at the bottom to continue in chronological order. It's hanging on to something obsolete because Josh got used to having it?
There is no use for a "Special Guests" section as well. Doesn't make sense, no need for it, as no one comes here to read on the topic of "Special Guests." Another example of hanging on to something that no longer makes sense, maybe because someone once thought it would happen more often?
Front page was always problematic design, like it was thrown together without much thought and then it didn't work with what they wanted to do later. It used to be, a couple of years ago, that the design did not have room for all the tabs he wanted. There were tabs across the top of the page for: Warren Reports, Coffee House, American Abroad (foreign policy experts--don't even ask for the story on that--you don't want to know, too complicated) etc. "Reader Blogs" was there, too, but they would have to drop it out when they had a Book Club to fit the Book Club in. Oh, during the New Orleans flood, they got a group of front page contributors together on it and they made a section tab for them. That once again, pushed the Reader Blog tab off the Cafe front page because they all wouldn't fit.
Front page is slow moving, much less activity than like TPM mother ship, and so unvarying in topic coverage now that there is no need at all for it to have all those categories, and that has been the case for at least a year. If they got it fixed so that each writers entire archive showed up under their name page, and that it continued with a next page chronologically, that is the way most people read sites like this.
Matter of fact, I don't understand why Josh didn't ask for that at TPM mothership with the redesign, a continuation to the next page, rather than weekly archives Few want to click on a full week of archives just to see what Josh and David Kurtz posted yesterday, they just like to read from when they last visited, and chronological order serves that purpose.
The room on the front page that could be freed up with getting rid of links that no one is even using would make more space for some of your suggestions. All they really need for front page contributors, mho is a "Cafe" and a "Book Club," and a link to the previous posts at the bottom of the page, unless they are plotting some mass influx of contributors on non-political topics.
May 2, 2008 2:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
I agree that snark labeled as such loses something. And most good snark posts are clear from reading the title, anyway. Though workerbee's "saloon" might work for meta-posts and chatty threads, and then "good" snark could fit in with whichever category it relates too.
May 1, 2008 11:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
I know this is meant to increase quality posts, but most times the comment section far outshines the original post. For example, say someone posts a pro-Hillary post, filled with obvious distortions. Let's also say that many, many commenters post intelligent rebuttals, with verifiable links disputing it. I know I recommended quite a few posts that were very sub-par just so the comment section would be read.
Maybe I am not the only one?
May 2, 2008 6:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm new to TPM, and I very much appreciate this thoughtful post. I'll do my best to improve my posts -- I forget that I am writing a "blog" not a post. I think that word -- blog -- is necessary to remember. Blogs actually require a certain amount of integrity. (Imagine that!)
Thanks.
May 1, 2008 11:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Genghis, I'm torn. Should this thread get recommended? It's essentially a substantive meta-post, substantive and well-written, but doesn't have much in the way of "journalistic merit", except as it pertains to the TPM community. Plus, I agree with it and maybe even like the author.
Another pattern I've noticed is that the rec list tends to be static. I think that's largely related to the high turnover rate in the "recent posts" section, so that a post that lands on the rec list with maybe 15 votes quickly doubles or triples its score, thereby making it more difficult for other posts to have a chance to be seen. (Actually, come think of it, this could also be explained by higher volume of users, which would make a lot of sense given the primary shenanigans.) I think your suggestion for a longer "recent posts" lists would help here.
Perhaps another feature that would help with self-policing our recommendations would be to show on each person's profile any reader posts they had recommended (in addition to the TPM staff posts). That potentially shame people into not recommending posts they might be embarrassed to have supported and allow onlookers to see which posts their favorite posters suggest. (The latter effect does enhance the "insider" syndrome, though.)
I wonder if it would be possible to categorize posts, as well? That is, if something is a "Seinfeld thread" or pure snark, it's still fun and interesting to read, and depending on who you are (and your current mood) is more or less valuable than an straight-up political analysis piece.
May 1, 2008 11:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Recommended because I completely agree, readily admit my own culpability and think that everyone should read this. I will add that I have found some of the Seinfeld threads very entertaining and would still prefer that to endless low-quality submissions, but I'd prefer better submissions on the whole (with the lingering possibility of Seinfeldian tangents in the comments).
May 1, 2008 11:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Point taken and very much understood, about the chat room atmosphere. I have treated TPM as my own personal blog space lately, and posted three posts in one day, today. Only one of them was really worth reading. Okay, two, but the grocery shopping spiel got in the way of the importance of Joe Andrew's switch to Obama, and his great 6+ minute interview which I linked to.
The haiku was pure BS and doesn't belong here at TPM. I will save it for poetry.com.
May 1, 2008 11:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
I dunno. I kinda liked your haiku idea. We shouldn't eschew silly..... Just somehow prevent silly from getting in the way of serious.
May 1, 2008 11:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
You're lucky that I only saw one of your posts. Otherwise, I would have rejected and denounced you, "rhymes with BisB".
May 1, 2008 11:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Genghis....I am fairly new around here so I cannot really say that my opinion counts, but I'll shoot off my thought process of reading what you wrote.
I definitely would agree with you. I personally usually ignore the "recommended" #'s and I read "other blogs" and the "recommended blogs" with the same equal rights. I make the assumption, maybe this is me being on the internet since 1989, that people will "recommend" up b.s. posts just as well the good ones. So ME personally, Ive maybe recommended 3 blogs since I have been here, because I thought they were good, and I did not specifically have to comment on them.
One particular part of your post I wanted to speak on was:
.What you are seeing here, and where you posted that many of the posts that are occuring are just basic posts, (I.E. "Barack gets a superdelegate"(I actually like these, saves me the time of searching or waiting for CNN to grab it)), is alot of people are "hanging" out on a news site that isnt designed for that, right now. You are seeing people wanting to talk to other people, not always of like minds, but just conversate and shoot-the-shit. Basically, the users of this site are surpassing the technology that the creators have put into the site.
And from reading the comments, and other things I have seen, it looks like something is in the works.
I know from working in internet technology in years pasts and being a part of many other sites, the owners really need a serious update to this site and QUICKLY, to keep this place from falling apart.
When the needs of the consumer surpass what the business is offering, they will go elsewhere, or they will use your technology in ways it wasnt meant for, whether it is good for the community or not.
I cant really figure why a chat room and other things, even if they link to a offsite place temporarily has not been created. Or just a forum(I am against a forum, but for the short term it would work). I mean the group here seems to be big enough to hold 1 or 2 PUBLIC chat rooms, or a forum where you can just simply free posts, rant, post b.s. while still following some of the rules set for TPM.
I am also very surprised I havent seen a poster just make a standard Yahoo chat room, give them their name and have people just join. If that did happen, at least THAT small tidbit and on a regular basis, I think you will see the level of b.s. recommendations lower, as well as the frivalent(sp?) lessen.
Just some thoughts. Liked the post though, good to see outside members weighing in on things like this. I'll personally try and do better with some of my more recent "rants/posts" heh, I think we are all getting a little buckwild with recent developments :).
Peace n' blessings
May 1, 2008 11:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Interesting idea on starting a live chat. You're right; that wouldn't be difficult at all for any of us to set up. Might be worth a try, anyway... and perhaps TPM could link to the "Cafe chat room" from a persistent place on TPM Cafe home page.
Hmmm.... (I'm still mulling this over to figure out whether I support the idea. We could always try it and see if it turns out to be lame.)
May 1, 2008 11:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
And the seeds of thought have been planted :)
I would have done so already, but it honestly isn't my place, I'm a newbie. :P
May 1, 2008 11:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
We don't have a tenure policy here. It's all merit based.
That said, I denounce and reject live chat in the strongest possible terms (which is such a weird locution; why not just use the strong terms rather than alluding to them, but I digress). I already spend way too much time on this site as it is. Live chat is the devil's tool.
May 1, 2008 11:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Fine, then don't join me on irc.efnet.net in #tpmcafe. Seriously. Don't.
May 1, 2008 11:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
Its funny because the entire time I have been thinking about a chat room or something, I am like "How come that dude with the Genghis Khan photo hasnt done it? He seems relatively smart enough to have thought about it."
But IRC??? Yuck. Now remember...I was using that ish back in the early EARLY 90's...or a version of that, think black screen, green lettering and font, but its so not user friendly :P
But if its all we got...then so be it :)
Pfft. Tenure policies give people reason to stick around when they get bored :P
Plus man, thats a major rule of the internet, if we lose that, then the trolls win.
May 2, 2008 12:17 AM | Reply | Permalink
The alternative would be AIM or YIM or something, but then everyone has to have an account on the same network. I'm perfectly happy with doing this instead and it also makes it easier to start group chats in the future if people exchange screen-names.
May 2, 2008 12:28 AM | Reply | Permalink
Chatrooms. Are altogether. Evil....
Plus I like seeing the clever snark you a