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Women But Few Men Support Hillary - Why?

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We keep hearing the argument that if Barack Obama can't do better in winning the white woman's vote, he can't win in November.  I'd like to know why nothings being mentioned about Hillary Clinton not winning enough of the white man's vote?

I noted this morning that Hillary won the endorsement of another 'woman' in Pennsylvania.  Just how many of her super delegates are female and how many are male?  Does anybody know?

When I see pictures of Hillary out there campaigning, she's normally surrounded by women, very few men are seen.

I don't know about you, but this concerns me just as much as it does seeing Obama not getting more white women to support him.  I question the polls however, because in Obama's pictures, you see lots of women and men, white and black surrounding him.  Not so with Hillary's pictures.

Has any expert out there looked into this potential problem for Hillary in November, if she were to win this nomination?


Comments (30)

A quick perusal of HRC's early endorsements from political figures in CA (e.g. Representatives) show that a majority of women endorsed her, and endorsed her early.

The clue lies in this further breakdown: it is *older* white women that vote for her. In other words, this group is voting for someone who looks like themselves.

Interestingly, the black community didn't come out in mass for Obama until two things happened: (a) Obama looked credible for real and (b) the Clintons started playing perceived racial cards.

While fact (a) doesn't hold with older, white women (Hillary was real from the start given good branding), judging by the posts here (b) does seem plausible (perceived sexist cards strengthen her support).

Hillary has made much of electing a *woman* president. Obama hasn't made nearly so much about electing a *black* president.

So, while Obama has been running as a candidate for all, Hillary has really focused on this core demographic. (Put the breast cancer research comments this week in that bin as well.)

In some sense, Hillary is too clever by half: it is possible to win the POTUS for her by simply playing identity politics. Obama never had a chance down that road (there aren't enough blacks in the US to elect him to anything). He, therefore, took the harder path -- but more substantial one.


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I still don't think Hillary can win without white men voters. It will take a portion of all groups to win this election.

She's only winning the white women for the most part. This could mean TROUBLE down the road.

Demographically, there are more women then men voters in the country. Thus a huge win within that demographic + a little from men could put someone over the top.

There is no way that capturing *all* of the black vote (+ a little of the white vote) would have the same hypothetical effect.

That was all I meant.

Yes, there are more women voters than men. However, the shrill vocal supporters of Hillary are white, educated women over 50, who were in the bra burning segment of the population in the late 60s and early 70s. They are still living in those days. As is Hillary. The chasm is not there with younger women, and minority women. Therefore, the argument that there are more women voters is, like so many others put out by "experts" Swiss Cheesy, full of holes. Many of us really, really oldbags can't stand the strident one. Like, for example, me. And, FWIW, the really really old vote in far greater proportion to the rest of the electorate. We also read, and listen. What a concept.

Oldbag,

I don't disagree with your post, I was only pointing out some mathematical facts: that there was no way Obama could think that identity politics would carry the day for him. He never had that as an option.

And it may surprise you that some of us, who still contribute to social security despite our knowing it won't be there for us, also read and listen.

What a concept. ;-)

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I guess she was burning bras when she wasn't leading College Republicans meetings.

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Ummm, I'm pretty sure that my mother never burned her bra. I really do not like to see women supporting Hillary Clinton being disdained like this. I think what they see (certainly what my mother sees) is the chance to redeem all those forces during the 50s and 60s that got in the way of their own achievements, whether it was staying home to raise a family, or not being taken seriously at work. That's why they are so loyal.

In my view, they are overlooking the assistance that Hillary has had from being the wife of a president -- and I think that many more men are clear headed about the fact that this is really why Hillary was always the front runner, and not because of her own experience or accomplishments.

No doubt, however, that there are men who are just rank sexists as well.

It's instructive to see what Sophie Masloff, the former Pittsburgh mayor, said:

It's been very difficult for me to sit on the sidelines and fail to support a woman.

My kid sister, a 64 year old white woman, feels exactly the same way. She supports Clinton (vehemently) because Clinton is a woman and she's tired of seeing women treated as objects, as irrelevant, as inferior in today's America. It's a frustration derived from daily demeaning episodes, over a period of decades. Women may have improved their state in many ways but all it takes is one dumb comment or action a day from one of the many men women know to remind women of their second-class status.

What's ironic to me is that racial minorities have a much better reason to support Obama than women do to support Clinton. It's not clear how Clinton will improve the status of women except by being a woman president. Women's problems are deeply ingrained. It's not as if men don't understand that women are real people. Everybody knows at least one woman quite well.

Obama has already started to open race relations to serious discussion. Minority races are a mystery to many Americans in that they don't know many racial minority people, if any, in a deep way. An open discussion of everyone's concerns may be a revelation. Racism is uppermost in the minds of many racial minorities. Obama offers the best hope to mitigate racism that I've seen in a long time. This appeals to many whites as well.

Not only do I not see an equivalent thing happening with Clinton and women, but Clinton's constant reminders that she is the woman candidate in this race doesn't entice many men.

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Did you miss the post about Michelle padding the background with white faces?

Men fell for Bush for the same reasons they fall for Obama-- they do not realize as clearly as women that someone who is charming does not necessarily have your best interests at heart.

Neither does somebody who lies to you, though...

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As my post said that I wrote about Hillary's problem isn't being a WOMAN, it's about the WOMAN she IS.

Hillary's the WRONG woman to be our FIRST woman President. She brings too much baggage along.

As for PADDING the background -- EVERY campaign does it (note the COLLEGE kids and Blacks behind Hillary?)

I know this will fall on the empty ears of those trying to paint Obama or Clinton in a bad light, but isn't THIS news too?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/04/10/mccain-ill-cut-deficits-l_n_96011.html

I'm pretty sure the vast majority of Clinton and Obama supporters want to see this guy defeated. Can TPM cover his gaffes and mistakes too? You know, fair and balanced? Shouldn't we start to work toward bringing Clinton and Obama supporters back together and focus on this guy that is against everything that we stand for?

McCain is such a trainwreck. Has there EVER been a President (or even a Presidential Candidate) who campaigned on a platform of not stimulating the economy?

"My friends, let me give you a little straight talk: I'll cut the deficit by suppressing the hell out of the economy, just like Ol' Flibbertigibbert MacGillicuddy pledged to do in 1873... We should've put that man in office. There would've been no housing bubble to burst..."

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Man'ing up for Hillary here.

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I agree with the McCain story -- needs to get OUT THERE BIG TIME.

However, until we END this Democratic debate/campaign -- He will continue to get a free ride.

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Here's another interesting story going un-noticed:

http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/amid-economic-woes-house-gop-to-pivot-from-fisa-earmarks-to-taxes-2008-04-09.html

Amid economic woes, House GOP to pivot from FISA, earmarks to taxes

No, I didn't see that article. What I did see was an article that related how some low level event planner reseated people at one of Michelle's events so the picture would show more diversity. You have no way of knowing whether the planner was doing that to create a false impression of the crowd or to prevent one. And, in particular, you have no basis whatsoever to attribute that to Michelle. You have, in other words, assumed the worst because doing so affirms your internal narrative about the race.

And therein lies the problem. Many women who are for Hillary because she's a woman, and for no other real reason, have constructed this narrative through which they projected themselves onto Hillary and have projected every perceived or real gender-based injury that they, or anyone they ever knew, has ever suffered onto Obama. In a stunning display of selection bias, they grasp at every fact that can be forced into this narrative and ignore or rationalize every fact that doesn't. Every sexist comment by some idiot commenting on a blog or offensive action by some neanderthal blowhard at one of Hillary's events gets attributed personally to Obama or, in this case, Michelle, while the fact that Hillary herself is piously talking about how she would have left Wright's church while seated next to Richard Mellon Sciafe, is of no concern to you whatsoever.

For Christ's sake, enough with the projection.

Barack Obama is not the supervisor who denied you a raise because you didn't respond to his harassment. He is not the customer who called you "hon," the professor who denigrated your contribution to the class, the guy who cheated on you, or the punk right out of college who was promoted over you after you trained him.

He's a decent man who's running for President against Hillary and who deserves to be judged based on his actions, his words and his policies, just like Hillary. He's a man who is married to, and unthreatened by, a strong accomplished woman. He's a man who has been a consistent and forceful advocate of women's issues and women's rights his whole public career and who has walked the walk in his private life. You might keep all that in mind after he wins the nomination.

That was supposed to be a reply to AJM until the Miracle Software did that thing where the "reply to" checkmark mysteriously disappears while you're typing.

I love that. It's my favorite feature of the new commenting system.

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Exactly!

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Barack Obama is not the supervisor who denied you a raise because you didn't respond to his harassment. He is not the customer who called you "hon," the professor who denigrated your contribution to the class, the guy who cheated on you, or the punk right out of college who was promoted over you after you trained him.

This is the most stupid comment I have ever seen. I did not support E Dole and she was a woman becuase I did not think she was the woman who should be president. I do not like Obama as a candidate because I see him as a fake. He has shown no originality. It was top of by his arrogance. This is not imagined as some here would like to argue. It has nothing to do with him being black either. I would love to support a black president just give me one I know who can be a good president. At a speech Obama stood beside a supporter who was introducing him with this stance facing upward, eyes closed like he was some GOD and all this was his due. I have yet to see him act in a humble way. He is so full of himself. Unfortuately there will always be some women who see the glammer and hype and fall for the star quarterback. Then there are the rest of us who realize that our identies are not tied up with what the men in our lives can grants us but rather in what we can gain for ourselves. And I know that there will be women who will stand up and stay I am a woman and I support Obama---My question to them is why. What is there about Obama is there for women to support. He offers nothing that every other pol has not said before. His message of change is nothing more than Dean's with a sexier, more Hollywood appeal to it.

Hillary will do alot for women. I dont know what the guy before thought but I find it ironic that Rev Wright could go through a spout about how Hillary will never know what its like to be black and that is alright but we are not allowed to question how it is that a man cannot know what its like to be a woman. As a woman Hillary understands that our problems are not just about how men treat us as second class but how we treat ourselves as second class. We raise our daughters to believe the same thing. A good example was with my own daughter. She was in a basketball game and as the center she is supposed to be aggresive yet the ref told her she needed to play more "lady like" She's althletic and perfers not to wear dresses and makeup but I am constantly told by other women how much prettier she would be if she would. at fourteen she is really not into the fashion trends and the boys she knows accept her just the way she is. It is the girls and other women who try and make her feel different because she is not 'girlly" She is strong and independent even at this early age and has already been labled the B because she doesn't allow other to control her opinions. She is outspoken when she disagrees with something including me. She is maturing into her own person and women in my family think it is time for her to start learning how to become a woman. They can not believe I let her take Agriculture and welding and not Home ec. One woman I know even said that learning how to weld would not due her any good but every girl needed to learn how to cook

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Sorry your daughter is told to be a girlie girl when she'd rather be welding, but how exactly is Hillary Clinton going to change this?

I grew up as a tom boy, played cops and robbers with boys, played sports, hated and still hate wearing makeup, and I did take metal and wood shop. I can also tell you until the next blue moon about all of those people who told me the same things people are telling your daughter. But the person who most shaped my attitude about myself was my mother who in the 1970s and '80s, when I was growing up, would simply laugh, and I mean laugh, at people making these comments. She was and is my biggest influence. She is the one who taught me about what is and is not important. She set the example for what a strong confident woman acts like.

With all due respect, I honestly do not believe that a public figure can make more of a difference in a young woman's self- and world-view than the people immediately around her. It sounds like you have a great daughter and your concern for her welfare and your daily interactions is really the most important thing.

As for women supporting Hillary--I'm a 45 year old woman and I wanted to support her. I love the idea of a woman president. But gender cannot be my main reason (that would make me sexist), and the flaws in her campaign far exceed any benefits of her gender, imho. Perhaps for some women, they do not (which is not to say there aren't a lot of women out there with perfectly sound reasons for supporting her... I'm just not one of them).

Perhaps a lot of men go this way as well. Gender might make them less comfortable with a candidate, but not so much that they couldn't overlook gender if everything else she offered was great.

If, say, 40% of voters (or even 30%) were voting because they want someone like them in the White House, wouldn't that explain Hillary having more female supporters and less male supporters?

Also, apparently no Democratic candidate for decades has gotten strong male support (or so says Rachel Maddow)--another area for discussion!

To add to this discussion, I'd like to point to the generational gap that works into the discrepancy in gender support. Hillary, as part of the Boomer generation, may be one of the last serious presidential contenders we will see from that generation. In many ways, her run is as significant as when B. Clinton ran and won as the first non-WWII generation candidate.

Obama who is technically at the tale end of the Boomer generation is for all intents and purposes, a post-Civil Rights/ Feminist Movement/ Vietnam War child. These two candidates were shaped by completely different sets of historical circumstances and I think that in many ways translates to their appeal to different segments of the population.

As a non-white feminist nearing 40, I have very different identification with the two democratic candidates. And at least amongst women I know who identify themselves as feminists, there is a generational gap that has become very pronounced as this race has progressed.

Among some women I know who are in their 50s and 60s, they see Obama as an upstart, swaggering, sweet talking male who woos the boss without ever having paid his due. The hard working, under appreciated woman is once again over looked in favor of the guy. Some openly draw parallels to their own lives and they support Clinton out of a sense of feminist justice.

For me, I see this race as truly liberating--a black man and a woman as serious contenders for the presidency! This race between Obama and Clinton in many ways is the fulfillment of the promises of the Civil Rights and the Feminist Movement. I also with little hesitation supported and support Obama's candidacy and I see no contradiction between that and my feminist identity. I also recognize that I am the beneficiary of the work and sacrifice of those who came before. However, I pay my respects to those who came before by not identifying solely with my gender.

This difference plays out in discussions everyday. It should not be a surprise that while Clinton has strong support among white women over 50, Obama has strong support among all women under 40. In the Democratic party, women over the age of 50 outnumber women under age 40, so it makes sense that the split is beneficial to Clinton.

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smitty,

Hillary changes this because she is not your traditional woman and shows that if a woman is qualified to be president then she can do it.

What worries me is that my daughter has commented already on how this country will cut down a woman like Hillary and push a man like Obama who if he were a woman even a black woman would have been laugh out of the race. And I am sick of people putting Hillary down-- Her expereince working on behalf of women and children for decades even before she became an elected official is expereince, Prior to Barack being elected to any offic he was a so called community organizer-- just what was he organizing i have not a clue. But this is suppose to trump Years of working TO advocate for women and children. And don't get on the Hillary walmart kick... Michille has her ties to Walmart and that is even after Sam Walton was no longer in the picture....

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Fair enough. If all that matters when we pick candidates is which one will buck stereotypes about what women are capable of, then Hillary wins.

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Ummm, how do figure she "worked for women and children" for "decades"? I know she says that but the facts are that she worked for the Childrens' Legal Defense Fund for two years. She sat on the Legal Aid board, a managerial position for an entity whose primary purpose is providing criminal defense to mostly male defendants. She did, however, help to organize an opposition research effort when Bill was in office in AK to gather damaging information about the women who accused Bill of sexual improprieties. That, I think, is not so woman-friendly.

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You seem to be saying that Hillary is polarizing on gender because more women support her than men. If you want to look at it that way, you could also draw the conclusion that Hillary isn't as polarizing on race as Obama is. He gets almost total support from blacks, and much less from whites. Are you sure you want to look at things that way?

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My point was, Obama's being targeted by the media and Hillary's camp as having little support from white women --- I wanted to reverse that question and ask why Hillary only seems to GET white women?

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"I noted this morning that Hillary won the endorsement of another 'woman' in Pennsylvania. Just how many of her super delegates are female and how many are male? Does anybody know?"


This page has a good list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Party_(United_States)_superdelegates,_2008


I think she probably leans female with SD.

But the bigger split is between elected and unelected SD.

Elected ones are split evenly, her only advantage being with unelected party hacks, DNC operatives (Harold Ickes!), even donors. I wonder when all these SD memberships were handed out. In the beginning they were far fewer in number.


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