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Why Hillary Clinton can't be stopped
A friend wrote to me and asked why in the world the Democratic Party leaders are not preventing this fratricide from going on any longer. Since I think Senator Clinton is the obstacle to opening the general election campaign, I tried to think of reasons why she can't be persuaded to step aside.
Howard Dean, as the chairman of the party, has
tried on two occasions to declare that the superdelegates need to go
ahead and make up their minds, and each time Clinton's rich donors (who
have been big money people for the party in the past) have gone on the
attack, basically threatening that they'll pull the plug, whatever that
even means in the age of Netroots and McCain-Feingold.
I haven't been able to figure out why
they don't just go ahead and shut this thing down, given that Obama's
lead is almost completely insurmountable (and has been since HRC didn't
do well enough in Texas and Ohio to make up any real ground). One explanation
might be that, even if he is ahead, there are still about 47% of
Democratic voters who didn't choose him, and the leaders are afraid of
pissing those people off by "handing" him the nomination.
The
fact that Pennsylvania has been dangling out there for six weeks made
it difficult to close it down too -- how can you make her stop when
she's in between big wins in OH and PA?
The big question
to me is what drives Clinton at this point. Is it just that you worked
for something your whole life, and then you can't bear to let it go
when there's even the slightest sliver of a chance that you might still
win? There is the thought that she wants to sabotage Obama's chances,
because a victory for him would definitely take away her and Bill's
roles as the symbolic leaders of the party, and even discredit their
legacy a little bit. I don't want to think that about her, so I'll set
that one side for the time being.
The more charitable view would
be that she believes she's on a mission to save the Democratic Party
from itself once again. This is a woman who supported Goldwater in '64,
then swung to the left and actively campaigned for McGovern in '72, and
saw firsthand how Democratic idealists can't be trusted. And then the
long, sad years of Nixon, Reagan, Bush, etc., until she and Bill rode
into town and told Democrats they had to kill welfare, throw thousands
of potheads in jail, and execute mentally retarded people to win
elections. In this case, she sincerely believes that Obama, Moveon and
an army of dreamers HAVE to be stopped from taking over the party, and
she'll do whatever she can to keep it from happening.
My own feeling is that it's just too hard to stop a juggernaut like this once you've set it in motion. If you're Hillary Clinton, at one point do you wake up one day and say, "You know what? I give. I don't want to be President anymore. You win!" I imagine that day is a cold one in Hell, or mighty close to it. Many people on TPM have argued that she won't quit until she runs out of money, or everyone begins to treat her as irrelevant like they did Mike Huckabee after a while. That may be so. But for now, when you're Hillary, how can you say no to the crowds? No more hoopla, no more adoring faces cheering you on and saying "BOO!" when your opponent comes up. She would gain the everlasting gratitude of some of us if she just bowed out after Pennsylvania, but that is probably not enough to make her shut the mechanism down. If she wins PA by 5 points or less (which I consider highly unlikely), then I think the $$$ will definitely stop flowing and we might be looking at a creaking machine that simply cannot be forced to go on much longer. Then again, the Clintons have some deep pockets, as we recently found out, so who knows.
What do you guys think? What is the silver bullet for Senator Clinton, if there is, in fact, any one thing that can kill the campaign of the undead?


Comments (147)
$$$
She still has it. It is the lifeblood of a campaign, and without it the campaigner is dead. Until her funds dry up, she'll stick around, no matter how impossible her chances may seem to the rational observer. A lot more could be said about how and why she still has money, given her chances are so close to nil. But how ever you slice and dice it, if she has the dough, she'll continue to go.
April 20, 2008 5:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Has anyone seen the Clinton campaign fund raising totals for March yet? Remember, she promised to release those numbers on the 20th - today. I suspect she will hold off until Wednesday, because the numbers are so disappointing, and that would cost her some votes in Pennsylvania.
If she loses, or barely wins in Pennsylvania, I suspect she will announce the bad news on the funds on Wednesday, along with hinting about suspending her campaign. (No one ever drops out of a Presidential campaign, they just suspend it.)
April 20, 2008 10:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's time for Obama to get out.
He does not have a prayer in the general election.
She can bring in the blue collar vote, and he can't.
April 20, 2008 10:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, the guy in the lead's going to quit. Right.
And I guess all those unions that endorsed him are filled with latte-swilling Black women, right?
April 20, 2008 11:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
He's in the lead because Republicans over-ran our caucuses.
He has not, nor can he win the big blue states.
Blue collar voters are not voting for Obama.
He is winning the same segment that McGovern won.
April 21, 2008 11:04 AM | Reply | Permalink
Oh yeah, California, Massachusetts and New York are going to go Republican if Hillary doesn't get the nomination.
April 21, 2008 12:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama will not only win in the general election, he's going to win big, and he's going to carry a lot of Democratic congress and senatorial candidates along with him.
Why do you think the GOP wants so badly for Mrs. Clinton to be the candidate? That's the clincher for me, right there. If the GOP wants Hillary, I definitely do not.
Don't sweat it, in ten days or less Obama will have the nomination and you're going to see this whole race change. McCain is about to face something for which he is most definitely not ready.
April 21, 2008 1:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't know about 10 days, but otherwise I concur.
April 21, 2008 5:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
A woman with 60% negatives can't bring in any support that she hasn't already got. There's absolutely zero hunger in the land for a chance to vote for Hillary Rodham Clinton. She's firmly fastened below a very low ceiling.
Which is why she's working so hard to shrink the democratic party turnout; she CAN'T grow her support, so her only hope is to make Obama's shrink.
April 21, 2008 5:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, but as an elitist I could care less about the blue-collar vote. That's the whole fun of being an elitist!
April 21, 2008 2:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
Why would he do that when he has a $50 million-plus money advantage over her broke campaign?
April 21, 2008 1:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Love your slanted avatar. Why don't you check out crooks and liars for a different angle:
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/04/20/msnbcs-contessa-brewer-helps-spread-false-rumor-that-obama-gave-the-finger/
April 21, 2008 1:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Not just aj "promise". She is required to file those numbers by midnight ET tonight.
It's 11:40 p.m. Still no numbers from Hillary.
April 20, 2008 11:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
The supers can't just pile on en masse with out the risk of permanently alienating Hillaryites. I also think that there will be enough to push him over 2024 by early June. If she were to loose PA I think there would be enough pressure and loss of funds for her to step out. This last month has been agonizing but as it comes to a close it looks like she has done more harm than good to herself and much less harm to Obama than she intended. At this point I can barely stand the wait until Tuesday night, I think that will say a lot in answer to your question.
April 20, 2008 5:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Care to make an estimate of the outcome in PA? I have felt pretty solid with my guess of 12 point victory for a while, though I'm hoping and praying for anywhere between a 5 and 9 point margin.
April 20, 2008 5:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
There is some good analysis at Daily Kos:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/4/20/16431/3610/189/470700
"Best case scenario for Obama is 54-46. Worst case scenario is 58-42. Split the difference and call it 56-44. And, quite frankly, that's optimistic given the media's attempts to Swiftboat Obama every single day for the past two weeks."
Opus is putting his money on a 55-45 split. 10 point spread sounds about right based on all of the polls that have been coming out. Obama hasn't polled much above 45 percent in any of them, but there is the undecideds and margin-of-error to factor in.
April 20, 2008 6:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
Akbar = Clinton supporter.
Funny post. Save some keystrokes next time and just say this: Gosh, Clinton should really drop out but she's going to win big in PA, people love her, she has tons of money, she's a fighter, and she's going to save the Democratic party. Shucks. It's going to be hard to convince her to drop out. What will we fake Obama supporters do?
April 20, 2008 9:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Way to deny reality, mi amigo. This is exactly what happens on TPM whenever anybody raises any question about Obama or defends Clinton. I wish HRC would drop dead tomorrow, but we have to reckon with the fact that she is utterly willing to "persevere" until the very last moment, taking down the rest of us out of spite -- and, more importantly, that there is some reason why she has been able to get away with this. There is a fair chunk of the Democratic Party who have rejected Obama and who insist that Hillary Clinton is the real deal -- I wish this weren't the case, but her persistent support in PA, WV, KY and so on shows that Obama has not quite sealed the deal with Democrats. That is all I mean to suggest.
April 20, 2008 10:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
how utterly inane to cast the author of this post as a secret Clinton supporter. great mindset you got there, buddy.
April 21, 2008 2:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
I don't think Akbar is a Clinton supporter. I've been a pretty hardcore Obama supporter, but I still think he hasn't sealed the deal with a large chunk of Democrats as well. I also think he'll have a hard time getting within 5 points of Clinton in Pennsylvania, but that was always expected. Come NC,though, and Clinton will have little argument for the nomination IMO, even among her most ardent supporters.
April 21, 2008 7:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
I am certain that Clinton does not think she is better for the Party or the country than Obama. Nor does she think he is unelectable. She knows McCain and his faults well, and given his temper, his age, his ties with lobbyists, and his stances on the war and the economy she realizes that almost any Democrat can beat him.
I think she sees this as her one chance to be President, pure and simple, and is willing try any strategy the lowest minds in politics can devise to get the nomination, regardless of the cost to the Democratic Party.
April 20, 2008 6:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree with ergo. Early voting by the supers won't stop her. Nothing will stop her before the convention. I wouldn't be surprised if she threatens the party that she will run as an independent if they don't give her the nomination. No one thinks Obama would take such drastic step if they robbed him of the nomination, so the threat would work well for Hillary.
April 20, 2008 7:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
I tried to think of reasons why she can't be persuaded to step aside.
What do you think Jesse Jackson's reasons were for not withdrawing in 1988?
April 20, 2008 7:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
I gave up on Hillary conceding when she started comparing herself to Rocky. Remember the first movie: he realized he couldn't win so he staked all his pride on "going the distance." I think she's committed now to running in every primary and caucus--if only so she can say in every state next time she runs (2012 or 2016), "I didn't give up on you." I'm expecting her to concede June 4 or 5.
April 20, 2008 7:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
As to why she won't quit, I'm a subscriber to the theory she's got a plan A and a plan B. Plan A: kneecap Obama, alienate as many of her own supporters from him as possible, marginalize him as "the black candidate" and hope for some stumble that causes the delegates to hand it to her. She knows that's a 1 in 10 chance at best. Fortunately, doing all of that also bolsters plan B: cripple Obama, throw it to McCain, run against McCain or his veep if St. John follows through on his one term talk and hope the "I toldja so" factor outweighs the accumulated fury she's earning now. She probably thinks this plan has a 50-50 chance of working. Truth is its more like 1 in 10 also. She's simply clueless about the level of antipathy she's building against herself. Like everyone else, she's the hero of her own story and she's surrounded by nothing but people who adore her, none of whom would dare tell her she's on track to have pissed off 60% of the party before its over.
As to why they won't make her quit, that's easy. It's her base--the female single or divorced, white working class middle aged women and the degreed boomer aged old-style feminists, along with a growing number of younger women, The latter are starting to buy into the poor victimized Hillary theory that if x thousand assholes say overtly sexist stuff about Hillary, that proves that everything else that happens to her is because of sexism too.
Every last one of the people in her base who are still actively supporting her are utterly impervious to the harsh mathematical realities. They really think she can win this thing outright and no mere facts can change this belief. Everytime someone has dared to suggest that she can't win and its time for her to stop, these women become infuriated, convinced that this so-called "math" these men are talking about is just another pretext for putting that glass ceiling back over their heads. If the supers push Hillary out before she's ready to do, we could lose all of their votes in November.
April 20, 2008 7:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
Your analysis seems very astute... but the question remains of how we can get her out. Convincing victories in IN and NC would seem to give supers the greenlight to start moving, though that outcome is far from assured in my opinion. You basically feel there is no upper limit where Clinton would stop and say she is hurting her future prospects too much by carrying on? I do find it astonishing that people say she is the most "electable" when about 30 or 40% of Americans (the conservative Republicans) already hated her to start with, and now she has alienated 30 or 40% of the Democratic base too... who would be left to vote for her, other than Barbara Streisand and Roseanne Barr?
April 20, 2008 8:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
"I do find it astonishing that people say she is the most "electable" when about 30 or 40% of Americans (the conservative Republicans) already hated her to start with, and now she has alienated 30 or 40% of the Democratic base too... who would be left to vote for her, other than Barbara Streisand and Roseanne Barr?"
You are spending too much time in the comments section of TPM. Go outside. I was at a rally for Obama in Philly on Friday. The Obama estimates of 35000 were laughable. If there were 7000 people there I would be astonished.
Senator Clinton has millions of supporters. That is why she stays on. Not because of the naive political psychologists on this site and others claiming all kinds of weird and strange motives.
April 21, 2008 8:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
I was at the rally also.
The 35,000 in attendance was not a release from the Obama campaign. It came from the locals who run these events.
The thought of 7,000 is laughable. I have the photos to prove it.
April 21, 2008 9:22 AM | Reply | Permalink
I have aerial photos as well. Can you link to them? I have been at several rallys there and it wasnt even close to 35000. Where can we put some pics up?
April 21, 2008 10:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
See if you can link to these photos. What was really weird about this rally was the separation of the crowd. There were 3 separate sections. The Blue Tickets were up around the stage. The Orange tickets were separated by about 50 yards from the Blues and you can clearly the gap between the two crowds. Finally were the unticketed and unwashed masses which were across Market Street. I was in that section since I couldnt get a ticket without promising to work on election day (I actually have a job!), so I moved to a friends office in the Federal Building across the street from the rally where most of the pictures were taken. The largest section was around the podium, which couldnt be seen from across Market Street and you can almost count the people. Yes, the locals, meaning the Obama Machine people would pump up the numbers, as if everyone doesnt, right? But as I said, I have been to numerous rallys on that site and have seen it much more crowded. Think Dean in 04 before the debate at the Constitution Center.
Try this link. Some of the pictures are blurry since it was so dark. But you can see the three sections in the light. Senator Obama spoke for about 20-25 minutes.
http://www.kodakgallery.com/I.jsp?c=8g7mjgu1.3pc8h6fd&x=0&y=k0j07k&localeid=en_US
April 21, 2008 10:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
You're both right. Clinton does have millions of supporters AND she is disliked with passion by many - and that number has grown since the start of the campaign. The Clinton's have offended blacks (a key constituency for Democrats), the young, the MoveOn folks and activists, and Obama supporters in general. While McCain is busily courting his base, the Clinton's are busily out there offending their own. Women used to be Clinton's ace in the hole, but in most nationwide polls, her lead in that demographic has diminished to almost nil. However you slice it, her chances of a successful run in November diminish with each passing week.
April 21, 2008 10:33 AM | Reply | Permalink
The idea that Hillary can make another run at the presidency in 2012 is one of those urban myths it is apparently hard to get rid of. If people rejected her in 2008, what makes it possible for the people to change their mind in 2012 even if Obama lost in a landslide? For Hillary to base a whole strategy of Obama losing to McCain and her doing the "come back kid" thing is plain silly. She will have alienated so many people, that she will have virtually no support or base. Not to mention that by then she will be 64-65 and Bill will be in worse health than he is today.
This is Hillary's last shot and she knows it. She is still willing to destroy Obama out of spite, but not because she plans on a run in 2012.
April 21, 2008 1:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
Just because it's objectively stupid doesn't mean she doesn't believe it. Lots of Republicans were furious at Reagan for his bare knuckled destructive campaign against Ford in '76, and yet somehow the party came around to unabashed adoration for him in 1980.
Hillary's entire political outlook is premised is upon the belief that the voters are drooling idiots who are easily fooled and have no memory for anything that happened more than three months in the past.
April 21, 2008 1:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's a tricky business. I think Dean, Pelosi, Reid, and many supers want this thing to end quickly. But it has to be done the right way. It has to be decisive, it has to look inevitable, and the Hillary fans can't be alienated because we need them all in the general election. That's why Obama has been hesitant in hitting back at Hillary until recently: she doesn't have to worry about pissing off his supporters because she's counting on the superdels to put her over the top, not the voters. He knows he can't alienate white women voters too much because he needs them to win the general election.
Ask yourself how it would look if a wave of superdelegates pledged now and basically decided the primary now...they both have been fiercely campaigning for six weeks, and ending it now would really be a slap in the face. Wait until Wednesday and things will be more clear.
Hillary will be done soon, and thank god--not because she's not a talented and smart politician, but because it will allow all democrats to put this madness behind us and focus on McCain, who is already trying to paint Obama as a terrorist. Obama can't define himself while he's still battling Hillary, and all the superdels know it. My call is that this will end not long after PA, NC, and IN are done.
April 20, 2008 7:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
It has to be decisive, it has to look inevitable, and the Hillary fans can't be alienated because we need them all in the general election.
Too many Obama supporters ignored that truth over the last few months. They thought only in terms of August, not November.
April 20, 2008 9:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Unless we can somehow pull out a victory in Indiana (and having lived there, I think it's pretty unlikely), I don't think there are any opportunities left for a clear knockout moment that would validate Obama in people's minds.
April 20, 2008 10:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
I dunno. Polls there have been looking pretty good.
April 21, 2008 5:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
So, there the Party's dillema - have the supers vote before the convention and you alienate Hillary's base. Let her "spray the joint with bullets" campaign continue until the convention and you severely weaken the nominee (even if it was her) for the GE.
April 20, 2008 7:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
It does feel like a lose-lose situation - either one will come off looking somehow less than legitimate, even though a 53-47 split in any other contest would not be considered an inadequate margin of victory.
I sort of explored these scenarios in the following post, "The Worst of All Possible Worlds"
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/04/the-worst-of-all-possible-worl.php
April 20, 2008 8:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Exactly the situation you can count on the Dems to get themselves into with no outside help whatsoever :)
April 21, 2008 4:23 AM | Reply | Permalink
I have no frickin' idea, of course, but my WAG is she wins it by 8-10 points here. I'm in central PA, near a big university town, and the county flipped to a D. majority for the first time since almost forever with all the new student registration.
But there are a lot of people just outside the bubble here who are the audience for the 'bittergate' blather. And to some extent, they're buying it. I've heard some of them say how it made them dislike Obama. (Of course, my theory is that there is a certain kind of person around here who would NEVER vote for the black guy, and Clinton's way of ginning up the faux outrage was simply a way of giving the racial impulse, which is always there just below the surface, some righteous cover. They're racists, but just chickenshit about admitting it.)
So, not to tell anyone anything they don't already know, the turnout in Philly and the suburban counties is going to be absolutely vital. I suspect that area will go for Obama big, big, big. And not just the AA vote, either. A LOT of disaffected Republicans in the suburbs have switched parties just to vote for Obama. There's a buzz.
The irony is that that's exactly how Rendell won the governorship against Bob Casey, Jr., who's campaigning for Obama now. They're following Rendell's playbook.
The assumption is that by winning big in the Philly media market, that counteracts the reactionary vote in the western part of the state. All well and good, and Rendell won despite losing something like 50 of the other counties. But Casey's also very popular out there, and in the northeast counties. So, while all the polls show that her support and some kind of lead is fairly stable, I harbor a small hope that Casey's influence, plus a big turnout in the AA communities and in the suburbs around Philly will mean a suprise squeaker for Obama. That's probably wishful thinking, but it's possible.
One other point: I think Hillary has already made herself unacceptable in the future. I talk to too many people who've flipped, and who are genuinely, deeply and implacably angry with her and her husband. They're yesterday's fish wrapper to a lot more people than I think she realizes yet. It's not going to be a pretty retirement.
Think Dukakis. Anyone ever think about him anymore?
Yeah. That's what I thought. For two people who so deeply crave affection and public notice, the Vast Ignoring that's going to happen will be painful, indeed. But appropriate.
April 20, 2008 8:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sad to have to agree with you, but I do. Racism is rampant is this contest, just under the radar. Most people simply don't recognize it, even when it's operating within their own way of framing things. Even David Brooks slipped up, by pointing out that folks just want to know a candidate is like us, then chiding Obama for his poor bowling. Basketball is Obama's sport(March Madness might suggest he's alot like most of us), but then I ran across the article on the Orangeburg Massacre, noting that African-Americans were killed when they tried to protest their lack of access to a bowling alley. A hoop and a ball is all that's needed for a game; what do you need to bowl? A whole alley. So, I suspect David Brooks is not a racist; I'm not calling him one. It's just that we reveal so much about how we see the world and much of it is from a racist framework, albeit unconscious, and much has been brought up via this campaign. So, I agree with you. Clinton has given cover for a whole lot of voters to vote or not vote given their attitudes to race. They just will never admit it given what she's done.
April 20, 2008 10:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Brooks is hardly a racist... it's just that his whole shtick is to reduce complicated issues to a matter of sociological stock characters. Obama shops at Whole Foods and he can't bowl, hence, he can't garner working class support, because the working class is idiotic and is completely incapable of supporting a candidate based on any issues. My mom, who is a middle-aged white woman who works in a factory (an obvious Clinton supporter), has chosen to support Obama because she's against the war and rejects all the sell-outs the Clintons made during their heyday in the 1990s. She doesn't fit in Brooks's cute, glib schema, so she doesn't count.
April 20, 2008 10:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
This is what I think, and it's part of a slightly larger picture in which the DLC is trying to hold onto power, while the netroots ad the DNC and Obama are trying to pull the party in another direction. There's a power struggle.
But beyond that, I think it's her - she just can't let go yet. The Juggernaut would have ground to a halt before now if not for her and Bill because they're out of money.
April 20, 2008 8:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Absolutely, we are in the thick of the fight you describe. What matters most is that we win in the end (November), so we don't become another cautionary-tale about the "loony left" running the Democratic Party into the ground. Clinton seems to be doing everything she can to make sure we get the blame for screwing the pooch in the long run... The question of the moment is whether the Democratic insurgency has the wherewithal to beat the DLC the way the Goldwater/Reagan wing overcame the Rockefellers when it finally took over the Republican Party, to great reward, in the late 1970s. And whether we can win over certain constituencies to our way of thinking in order to make it all possible...
April 20, 2008 8:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
The moments always spawn questions in every election.
April 20, 2008 9:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
I just wish Obama weren't so tired. Physically tired. That trip on the train, where he had a few miles between stops to look at how beautiful Pennsylvania is and take a catnap and maybe think a bit about what's been behind him and what's ahead, and bounce some of it off Casey and Axelrod - surely that's doing him some good.
But this is really brutal. The schedule, the pressure to be politic, to watch every word, to think before speaking even when he possibly can't pry his eyes open, the adrenaline and the crash from it, every day. He is a human creature, not some automaton,
And whatever happens on Tuesday, he's getting no break. From there it's on to the next, and the next and the next until Mrs. Clinton finally irrevocably loses. And then it's placating the Clintonians who will be livid, simply livid.
Sexual politics has always been toxic, as has racial politics.
I watched my mother buy a beautiful pants suit and go to her job as Admin. Sec'y for a department head at a major university in the late '50s and precipitate a staff/faculty meeting about appropriate dress code for the secretaries. It wasn't even concealed behind the '70s "support staff" title. Just sexual politics.
The thing he needs to pull off now is a contract with the Republicans that presidential debates will be substantive. I think his suggestion that he would switch to public financing for the presidential race if both sides swear off 547s is brilliant. He's throwing McCain a bone that's going to be hard to resist and leaving a way open for him to allow his own 547s to be quite unpleasant if the Big Bucks republican machine refuses his offer.
The biggest problem for him of 547s supporting him is that he can't control them. If they get off message he can't dismiss them like he did with Sam Power. And he needs to retain control of his entire script.
Whether it's a good think to have a candidate exercising that sort of overarching control or not is yet another question. It would be horrible with a Nixon or Cheney, but I like to think it's OK with an Obama.
I may not be correct.
April 20, 2008 9:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't think 527s will play as large a part this election as they did in 2004, so it might be a safe bet for McCain and Obama to swear them off.
527s are a problem, but as soon as they get controlled, the 501 (c)3s, 4s, 5s and 6s will take their place. The one truth in politics is this: money will always find a way.
April 21, 2008 7:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
Trying not to repeat myself, but all the evidence suggests that she's made a real commitment to staying in, so it's a waste of time and energy to think about "getting her out." She'll win PA, and even if she loses IN she'll still have KY and WV ahead of her.
I don't think she needs motivation to stay in so much as she would need motivation to get out. She likes campaigning, she's got the money, and she knows she couldn't live with herself if she gave up while there was even a 1 in 1000 chance of pulling it out. Basically, she has no real reason to give up on her "hang around until he really screws up" strategy. The most we can hope for is that she'll see evidence that her negative campaigning is hurting her and she'll shift her attention back to McCain.
But really: she's not going away. Obama's strategy has to be devised around how to campaign with Hillary around his neck, not how to get her off.
April 20, 2008 9:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
"The supers can't just pile on en masse with out the risk of permanently alienating Hillaryites. "
I think this is the reason.
Also many supers are weasels who don't want to make enemies either way.
But I think after PA,NC and IN, you'll see more jump ship.
April 20, 2008 9:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
She can't quit. This race provides both the meaning and justification for her years with Bill. She will not quit. She will take it to the convention.
April 20, 2008 10:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think that's probably part of it.
I think Hillary has two primary reasons:
1) Accounts for 70-75% of the reason she's still in it: She's incredibly competitive by nature. She wants to win; she needs to win. A loss, especially given her built-in advantages, is unacceptable to her, and so she will fight to the death to win.
2) Accounts for 25-30%: She really does believe that Obama will lose in the general and that she is the better candidate.
It would be only natural to believe both of these to be the case.
April 20, 2008 10:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think you pretty much sum up what's going on in Clinton's mind.
April 20, 2008 10:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's too late to shut this down and have Hillary just quit. I don't think it has anything to do with Hillary herself at this point, but psychology. Letting the process go on through its' conclusion will help take the heat out of this primary for a lot of Democrats who are passionate about Hillary.
Please...no accusations of being condescending. It is what it is. After the primary is over, you're either a Democrat, or you're not. I think I know who has this thing won, but even if Obama doesn't win it, I'm voting for Hillary in the general without batting an eye.
There IS actually a positive to all of this even at this point. And it’s voter registration. There are so many new voters this cycle who prefer one candidate to the other in good faith. I think many of these new voters are very determined to vote for Democrats. I have my opinions on who helps down ticket, but that’s another post for another day.
April 20, 2008 10:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Good Point Mike;
You have nailed the reason I want this to stop ASAP after June 3rd-the downticket Dems who needs some national attention and coat tails. And I will say it though you did not-the evidence that Obama has serious coat tails already if there.
I will support Hillary too if she is the candidate. But for the sake of honesty we know that there are places that Obama can go help candidates where Hillary cannot even go because her presence is too divisive.
I have a multitude of reasons I support Obama, but one thing that baffles me is how are Hillary's supporters so completely ignoring the very real potential that a Hillary Presidency would continue the vitriol that started the day after Vince Foster died and has been so aptly (or should I say ineptly) carried on by baby George.
I for one am looking forward to a little less acrimony and more of a feeling that our government is making a sincere effort to serve together for the common good.
April 21, 2008 1:38 AM | Reply | Permalink
Could it be that the race isn't over yet because a number of states haven't voted yet? Could it be that there is nothing in the Party rules that says the race is supposed to end before it ends? Could that have anything to do with it? Could it be that Obama's "insurmountable" lead is almost as insufficient for him to declare victory as Hillary's is? Because they are actually quite close, and neither can win without the superdelegates. Could that have anything to do with it? Could it be that Hillary, despite the "yes, yes, yes" answer she was forced to give during the ABC debate, actually believes that an Obama victory equals a McCain victory in November? Could it be that there actually is a possibility she could still win the nomination, and being a fighter with incredible stamina and endurance, she simply isn't going to quit? Hint, the above questions are rhetorical.
April 20, 2008 10:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
No doubt that the answers to your (rhetorical) questions are "yes," Otto. My question for you is: if the superdelegates do agree that Obama is too much of a risk and decide to back Clinton as a safer choice, how do they explain it to the public? Hillary's greater competitiveness in certain areas (e.g. traditional Democratic areas like NJ, MA, etc., as well as FL and OH) is a fair enough reason to back her, but I worry that it is too complicated a rationale to explain to the many of us in the public who DID vote for Obama in greater numbers. How do they justify this choice, if it turns out that way, in a way that doesn't lead to a fervent revolt among the rank-and-file, particularly the youth, the academics, the African Americans, and the other constituencies who worked so hard for Obama's nomination (and who came within an ace of securing it)? I'm not saying it's completely wrong that Clinton would receive the nomination, but how would the party deal with it as a matter of PR?
April 20, 2008 10:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
first of all you can forget the idea that the supers will ever back hillary .
no democrat including bill clinton has ever won a majority of the white voters.
if hillary was given the nomination because "she is seen as better to win the general",
you can count not only on the black vote to stay home but even cross over out of anger.
no there is simply no means to award this to hillary and since she knows that as well as anyone, her desire to hurt the chances of Obama makes her even worse then everyones negative opinion of her.
April 20, 2008 11:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Right, unless Obama's campaign somehow completely implodes, which I doubt.
While the Clinton crew has quite a few folks throughout the party who can pull strings, the fact is that the leadership of the party has now turned on her. You hear it in the subtle messages that Pelosi, Reed and Dean deliver. BTW - Dean does have some sway with the rules committee at the DNC, and that bodes poorly for Clinton. She may take it to the convention - I doubt it - but if she does she'll fail.
April 21, 2008 10:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
because she is like a drug addict who cant see straight unless she gets her high and when she comes down the truth is to painfull for her so she takes another hit.
she is in deep denial about a lot of things.
she felt she was entitled to win this.
she cant believe she is lost.
she must cling onto the false belief that something, anything will happen and she will be vindicated.
and that is the real problem here because all the people who have bankrolled her and expect return are pissed off big time.
they are all like she and bill completly tied into the establishment. there is no difference between her and mccain as far as being washington insiders go.
there will be no change in government if she ever were to be elected. she owes to many people.
they would all prefer to see mccain win because that is their only chance to get one more chance to weild power and profit.
that is why she is willing to do and say anything to hurt the chances of Obama, because lets face it the idea that she will NOT be the nominee is no secret to her.
that the people of Pa. appear willing to give this lier a victory tuesday speaks to their stupidity and forces the rest of us to live in a country where we are subject to the likes of bush and now even potentially worse, mccain.
its makes me sick.
April 20, 2008 10:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Have you forgotten Hillary creates her own reality? She cannot accept, given where she started, that some young upstart from IL could possibly defeat her after she has "paid her dues". The only way she will stop is when the money dries up. I don't expect her to make another personal loan to her campaign. So I assume she is in it at least until June 4 and possibly longer. And it is about Hillary, if she destroys the party or tarnishes Obama in the process so much the better. She needs to be right, and will only be happy if he loses in the general to validate her belief that she is the one who should have received the nomination,"I told you so" to all of us that she perceives as stupid enough to vote/support BO. This is the Clintons after all. Any of you old enough to remember the calls for Bill to step down so the country could avoid going through an impeachment trial? Didn't work there either, even though they badly weakened the Dems. These are two people who are only looking out for their own desires.
I too feel bad for Barack. It wasn't hard to see in the debate the other night that he really wanted to let her have it. But he could not risk alienating her supporters in that type of forum. I found it interesting that he was characterized as weak for it when I believe he was trying to preserve the Dems for the election in November. It is a very fine line for him to walk. I am praying for an upset in PA on Tuesday so her money deserts her.
April 20, 2008 10:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
I have definately noticed the blogs appear weary and seem to realize Hillary isn't going to cede the race for the good of the party. She has switched parties before to further her ambitions. Since she was young she determined the presidency was her right.At first she latched on to Bill because she couldn't imagine the nation electing a woman but with this race she is soooo close. It has to be hard to face yourself in the morning knowing she just isn't going to get it so I suspect she has convinced herself she will get this if she just tries hard enough. I have a hard time understanding how she got this far. I am a middle aged white woman that remembers all the nasty distasteful things she has been involved in. I can't help but laugh (though now it is a sad laugh) when she pushes Obama is connected to radicals and bigot preachers when she has been drenched in mud for almost all of her adult life. Does she really think the Republicans would not destroy her? They have so much documented garbage that I can't see them not using most of it during the GE. Screw em will be headlines along with she was fired for unethical behavior as an atty. Does she not realize this? All she has on Obama is relationships while she herself was the problem in many illegal past doings. It's just hard to understand.
April 20, 2008 10:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't think money will even be an issue for her, because I think she'd start funding her own campaign if necessary. Money is going to start drying up for Obama as well - I think Americans are getting tired of the primary season. Once Pennsylvania, Indiana and NC are decided, there really isn't any battle grounds left AND it will be pretty much accepted that it's going to the convention in August.
April 20, 2008 10:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
To a degree I think you've got a point or two there. As I said in the beginning, she's still in because she's still got money. And, you're right that she has some, but not enough to go it alone. The 'spin' is important too. If the news starts reading that she's only raking in $5mil to Obama's $30mil, it just starts to look very bad, and the pundits simply can't ignore that fact.
As for Obama's money... my only question is how many of his supporters are tapped out, either because they can't afford it, or because they hit the $2,500 limit. But, in general, I think as long as his supporters can contribute they will continue to do so. They've payed to play, and they're not going to walk away after the fight is only half fought.
April 20, 2008 11:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Funny how the anti-Clinton crowd never brings up any issues, such as "She's wrong on healthcare! Obama has the right plan!" or "She's wrong on Iraq! Obama has the right plan!"
I wonder ... is that because (a) the anti-Clinton crowd doesn't know the comparative features of the two candidates' plans or (b) they don't care about the candidates' relative positions because they're not voting on issues or (c) both of the above.
I am betting on (c).
Thanks.
mp
April 20, 2008 11:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
There may be a certain percentage of people who are just voting on personalities, but do you really think the majority of Clinton and Obama supporters aren't making a reasoned choice on who they support relative to their stands on the issues? I personally don't think people who are struggling to get by ought to be punished for not being able to buy insurance, nor do I trust Senator Clinton to make the right call on foreign policy issues after she made the politically expedient move to back Bush on the war. That's the bottom line for me and many other Obama supporters, I think. We obviously thought our perception of the issues was correct, and now we find our candidate having won the most votes/delegates... It's one thing to have a debate over who we think is the best candidate with the best positions (which is a debate we had over the last few months) -- now we are having a debate over how we wrap up this nomination contest and battle against the Republicans. Not too surprisingly, we think that it's time to close ranks around the chosen candidate. Where does Clinton fit into this picture?
April 20, 2008 11:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
The answer is (d), which comes in two parts:
1. From a pure issues standpoint, the two are well known to be pretty close. There just aren't large, obvious ideological differences. The Iraq vote is a big issue, but that's the past. Certainly in most cases the difference between the two candidates' stated positions/plans is smaller than the difference between either position/plan and what might actually get enacted.
2. The other part of this answer is that the question at hand really isn't whether Clinton ought to win, due to her stand on issues, or whatever. It's that she has effectively already lost. She can't possibly catch up in the elected delegates, and it's almost inconceivable that the supers will overturn that result.
So talking about issues would be pointless, since the nomination's effectively been decided and the only question is how ugly it'll get.
April 20, 2008 11:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
You never asked.
And, I might add, you haven't made a case for Clinton either (in this case). Some of us would welcome a heathy dialogue in the issues. By all means... please start one.
Since this post is about another topic, maybe you can start your own blog post and open a topic for discussion. Healthcare, the environment, Iraq, the economy, whatever. You'll get a few ranters and troll-like idiots from both sides, but you'll also get quite a few of us who'd be more than happy to have an intelligent conversation about the issues.
April 21, 2008 1:23 AM | Reply | Permalink
Okay. She IS wrong on health care. I believe that Obama's approach is more reasoned, and could work well to transition us to an eventual program more like Hillary's, one that simply cannot be launched as a 100% change in only 4 years. Also, she is wrong on Iraq, because she is unwilling to include the possibility that a Commander in Chief may have to make changes to his/her plans depending on the situation and has chided Obama for saying he would consider those changes. Even moreso, she is wrong on Iran talking "massive retaliation," offering American troops for the protection of ALL Middle Eastern countries instead of just Israel, and including "keeping Iran from getting nuclear capability" as a footnote to her comments. This is especially upsetting since the most recent NIE reports that Iran *has* suspended attempts to pursue nuclear capabilities, and Clinton's use of "fear" language like "embolden the enemy."
There. Happy?
April 21, 2008 3:11 AM | Reply | Permalink
I have looked at the issues. I switched candidates. I was initially a Biden supporter because I didn't (and still don't) like either of the two front-runners' plans for Iraq. Foreign policy-wise, of the two, I thought eventually (not early on) that Obama made the sounder arguments and would carry on with judgement similar to that of my initial choice. I honestly like Obama's health-care proposal better out of a philosophical stance on preserving as much liberty as possible (meaning fewer mandates if possible). On NAFTA, I dislike both of their ideas but think that Obama has given away less in pandering than Clinton has (albeit the margin is tiny). With that said, most of this did come down to personality for me, and Obama's temperment and restraint was a relief for me to see. Please don't treat me like I don't know what I'm talking about. I think you'd be surprised to see what I know.
April 21, 2008 6:03 AM | Reply | Permalink
hillary the war monger who has become rove in tactics and you think she can be trusted on any plan she pretends to support?
racist whites keep her from being eliminated.
put aside the clintons playing the race card and her supporters too.
put aside the fox pandering the "i dont know if he is muslim, the "only mccain and me can be CIC.
put aside the attacking of the party base.
the lying on nafta the fake crying the media bias against Obama and his wife.
the attempt to paint him as a terrorist.
answer fairly one question,
would Obama still be a candidate if he had said he ran from sniper fire?
her appeal is to the dumb and the white redneck.
no one else could support her based on what she has said and done.
April 21, 2008 9:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'd be happy to reply to the healthcare question. I'm not quite on board with Obama’s healthcare proposal. However I feel he's moving in the right direction compared to what we have now. I think that he will work in good faith with us progressives who are a little more to the left than him on this issue and we'll get it done. I've seen Hillary's foray into working with a Democratic congress to get a healthcare deal done...you know what? None of that matters. You're a Hillary person. More power to you. I'm an Obama person. We're both Democrats.
Folks...we really need to start thinking about life after the primary. If you want to fight it our in the comments section, go ahead, but we're all in the same party...I just think all this needs to start settling down. Do we really need Dean to do that for us?
For clarity's sake, I'm not saying Obama should let his gaurd down and quit campagining hard. The online brawls could stop if we wanted them to. Is there a comment a Clinton supporter can make that's going to have her win the remaining primaries by 20% or get 65% of the remaining supers? No? In that case, us Barack people can let whoever needs to blow of steam...blow off steam, right?
April 21, 2008 3:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
I was just thinking of writing a blog on that theme. Thanks. I've been guilty on a couple occasions of getting hooked by nasty remarks, but, as Obama supporters I think it's time to get back to one of the things that I think attracted us to Obama in the first place. Keep cool, see the humanity in the other person even if they can't see it in you, and strive to be inclusive. The game is essentially over, and it's time to unite and focus on the real battle that's about to begin.
April 21, 2008 5:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
I want my president to lead with his best judgement even though I may not always agree. I want him to have enough faith in me to tell me the bad as well as the good. Obama doesn't say HE will change things in Washington he says WE will together. That is the most important difference between Obama and the other two. Screw em isn't in his vocabulary as it is in Hillary's. I trust him and could never trust Hillary. She has told too many lies too many times to be trustworthy. Have you noticed she has started to sound identical to Obama? She just can't understand we heard her before when she wasn't telling the truth. That's my reason I don't care what she is campaigning on, since it is probably a lie.
April 20, 2008 11:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Michael: This is where Hillary AND her supporters insult all those who have voted for Obama. As a 50+ highly educated white woman, I looked at the issues many months ago. I also looked back at the many elections over my lifetime and how we got to the mess we are in. Most of us "older" people that back Obama, and there are many of us, do so in recognition of the fact that the world has changed and the way things have been done for many years (Hillary's so called "experience") have gotten us no further ahead. Yes, we truly want/need change to move this country forward. We'll see if BO can do it, if he can't I don't believe anyone can, but cert