I'm bitter too. Its not surprising that many people are bitter. Apparently I cling to guns as a way to explain my frustrations. What do you cling to as a way to explain your frustrations. Just looking for some answers in this thread.

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/04/what-do-you-cling-to-to-explai.php

Wonderful!

Bitter Voters for Obama site. They even have bumper stickers!

http://www.bittervoters.org/

I'm bitter about a primary that has devolved so completely that Democrats vilify other Democrats, jeopardizing the party's chance to win the White House and putting the entire country in jeopardy of four more years of narrow-minded Republican leadership as a result.

Just so.

It's like watching a train wreck. Again.

Just a basic question redhead. How is Politics or at least an elecetion between two people supposed to "build up" as you say? In any contest there are going to be contentions and debates on both sides. There are going to be hurt feelings and upsets all around. There are going to be shouts and arguments...pointing of fingers and enough indignation to fill yankee stadium. Isn't that basic human nature?

The point I am trying to make is what we do with the information or "gotcha" that is put in front of us. We can either stick to talking about the real issues of the country or we can devolve into talking about a minister, sinbad, bosnia, tax forms, and small towns in PA. Unfortunately we all have picked the latter. We are the masters of all of this "talk". We can reject what is put in front of us to titillate us or we can accept it and be titillated. To be blaming the campaingns for that is not being honest. They are a reflection of us. And, US, right now would rather argue over stupidity.

"Ma, ma , where's my pa. Gone to the White House
ha,ha, ha.

James G. Blaine, James G.Blaine, continental liar from the state of Maine."

There's nothing new about Gotcha here and if want to go abroad "Hat der teufel einer sohn er war sicher Palmerston".

So far it's been a normal match between two candidates with 16 inch gloves. Sit back and watch and try not to become so emotionally involved that you demonize the opposition.

Most people seem to be missing the point of why Obama's statement was so insulting. Of course, this being TPM (Obamamaniac Central) I suspect most people are missing the point on purpose.

Obama ISN'T under fire because he called people bitter. It may not have been the best word to use, but it's not by any means a demonstrably false description. The mischief of Obama's statement was that he explained his difficulty in electorally penetrating small-town Pennsylvania on the bitterness of the people there.

In other words, he was saying that small-town people aren't voting for him because they're bitter...and their bitterness is leading them to irrational solutions (like guns and God) rather than to the Truth of Obamamania. It can't possibly be that people have compared him to his competitor and found him wanting and out of step with their cultures and traditions. The implication of his explanation is that something must be wrong with the people of small town America that don't vote for him.

This is an incredibly insulting and condescending point of view.

In response to eratosthenes8, Obama was not trying to say people won't vote for him because they are bitter. Actually, I think he got to that awkward way of saying things because he was trying to say some people aren't going to vote for him because he's black. And he didn't want to say that so he got into the whole, complicated thing. But I don't think it's all that condescending nor will it persuade many voters either way. Out despicable media blowhards need to give it up, but they won't. They have their best friend, John, to elect and he isn't on the right side of anything.

As for Hillary, I don't blame her for going with anything at this point, but I hope soon she'll remember to put the party and the people first.

in response to vicissitudes, your comment was brilliant. I love that St. Augustine quote, and I'm going to steal it in my office conversations on the election. Thanks.

Does anyone familiar with Sen. Obama's life trajectory and policy positions truly believe he is an elitist . . . .

All the elements are there. And running for president, just out of the box and with less experience in politics than even Bushit, is a tad audacious, correct?

As for the dude calling Hillary a "moronic" "bully": your tasteless "tactic" is that of a name-calling bully.

Hillary's Top Gun in Pennsylvania, Governor Ed. Rendell said this about White Pennsylvania voters, on February 12, 2008, in an on the record interview.

Why did Hillary not chastise her Top Gun for talking about White people, in such 'an elitist way". Hypocrite, thy name is HilAnny Oakley Clinton.

Here is what Rendell said about White voters in his state;

Tuesday, February 12, 2008
By Tony Norman, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

Gov. Ed "Don't Call Me 'Fast Eddie' " Rendell met with the editorial board of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette last week to talk about his latest budget. But before turning the meeting over to his number-crunchers, our voluble governor weighed in on the primary fight between Hillary Rodham Clinton and Barack Obama and what the Illinois senator could expect from the good people of Pennsylvania at the polls:

"You've got conservative whites here, and I think there are some whites who are probably not ready to vote for an African-American candidate," he said bluntly. Our eyes only met briefly, perhaps because the governor wanted to spare the only black guy in the room from feeling self-conscious for backing an obvious loser. "I believe, looking at the returns in my election, that had Lynn Swann [2006 Republican gubernatorial candidate] been the identical candidate that he was --well-spoken [note: Mr. Rendell did not call the brother "articulate"], charismatic, good-looking -- but white instead of black, instead of winning by 22 points, I would have won by 17 or so."

I know I have a habit of sometimes zoning out in these meetings, but it sounded to me like Mr. Rendell had unilaterally declared Pennsylvania to be Alabama circa 1963. Was he suggesting that Pennsylvanians are uniquely racist in ways that folks in the states Mr. Obama has won so far aren't? By the way, Mr. Obama won Alabama on Super Tuesday, thank you very much!

Obama said that small town (in the context, unemployed)people are bitter.

They aren't bitter ? They like it ? Come on, it's a statement of fact.

Next : "so they cling to religion or guns" . Yes that sounds elitist and would be if untrue. Some of you do think it's untrue:that being unemployed doesn't cause people to search for something else to dull the pain: alcohol, religion, sex, hunting, hobbies, politics.whatever. So it's perfectly consistent for you to consider it elitist.

Not everyone agrees with you, including me.

For us the charge of elitism seems an inaccurate
characterization for seems to us to be a statement of the obvious.

We may be wrong. But for us its perfectly consistent not to consider it elitist.

We may be wrong,you may be wrong. I don't think you're stupid for reaching a different conclusion and I hope you'll have the consideration to think the same of me.

But since that is how I think, for me Obama is simply stating a fact and if that's elitism , send out for more elitism ..

I acknowledge that he (unwisely in my opinion) opened himself to the charge that he's disparaging religion. Which would certainly have been true if he were saying that people only seek out the church to satisfy some feeling of inadequacy. Pretty clearly he'd have been disparaging his famous attendance at Trinity church (Oh Lord!) so it's about 1000% unlikely
that he is guilty of that charge.

In this religious country he gave a major hostage to fortune with that remark and I wish he hadn't.
Doesn't make me think less of him as a person but adds to my grave doubts as to whether he's a stronger candidate than HRC.

And to conclude his ill chosen litany he said something to the effect that in their bitterness they( the small town/the unemployed) become anti immigrant(Sort of like Lou Dobbs after he failed as an entrpreneur.)

OK. Who disputes that? Does anyone seriously think that being unemployed adds to the benevolence with which people regard foreignors ?
I assume not so ....

if Obama correctly said that unemployment makes people bitter, and correctly but unwisely said it makes them throw themselves into some diversion: guns or religion or who knows what -repairing antiques maybe.....

and made the stunniingly obvious observation that in the US , as in every other country since the beginning of time ,unemployment causes various types of intolerance including towards foreignors..

then what in the world is all this shouting about?

Answer. Obama doesn't happen to be the candidate you favor and therefore if he says the sky is blue it must surely be red , or he must have pronounced blue in an annoying way.

Look there are two excellent candidates running for the Democratic nomination. In the process they say reasonably critical things about one another.What else is new ?Ultimately one of the two will prevail for whom I'll vote with pleasure.

I recommend the same to all of you. And in the interim try not to get your knickers in such a twist.

I am a plain spoken old man. Here are some of my plain thoughts on why Hillary is bad for our party.

The Republicans are the ones who have shipped all those small town jobs overseas, with the help of Bill and Hillary.

The Republicans are the ones who have eradicated the American manufacturing base that provided jobs for those who were not capable of getting a college degree.

Here is some plain truth for you: College is not for everyone. We all know that, but yet we keep letting politicians get away with claiming that a college education, for all, is the solution to all our economic woes. That is complete bullshit. If some one is not smart enough to earn a degree then why the hell should we pretend that they are.

We can not afford to educate all of the best and the brightest now, so where is all the money supposed to come from to send all the rest to college.

Some people are born with the capacity to be great scientists or doctors or teachers. Many are not.

Many of them need to earn a decent middle class income using their hands. Manufacturing and textiles plants used to provide them with good jobs.

The Republicans and The Clintons have send all those jobs overseas.

While they were doing so, they conned the communities that were bitter about watching their jobs, pensions, health coverage, and standards of living being eradicated, with scare tactics about how Liberals are going to take away the only things that you have left.

The Republicans scared the hell out of people, who were all ready traumatized from having their economic security stolen, by brain washing them with horse shit warnings that The Democrats were coming to take away their Religion and their Sporting and Hunting guns.

For good measure, the Republicans scared the vulnerable people into accepting that The Democrats were going to "give them gay" in the words of Homer Simpson.

We all know this is the truth. That is what Senator Obama was talking about.

The Republicans stole all the good blue collar jobs, and shipped them overseas to near slave labor nations, while all the while distracting those they were ripping off with an avalanche of God, Guns, and Gays, Fear Mongering.

Hillary knows that is what happened. If she had a single drop of moral courage and honest leadership in her body, she would have stood up and declared that Senator Obama is telling you the truth.

She did not do that. She is not capable of taking such a principled stand with a fellow Democrat. She is unworthy of our support, and she is unworthy to lead our party.

We can do better. We must.

But if that was his aim, I think he missed the mark. And whether you believe that Obama's remarks were really about race or a straightforward explanation of his views, the central weakness remains. Obama is blaming his electoral fortunes among these people on the people themselves rather than on his own performance.

O bullshit. He was answering a question about what people could expect in certain areas.

Talk about trying to make something out of nothing - dude, I've seen bootstraps, but that was ridiculous.

He was essentially addressing an issue which has been front and center in the Democratic party and among liberals in general for years.

And you are doing the same thing she did - belittling the whole thing by trying to make it something else.

Up is not down. In is not out. He didn't make any veiled references to race or anything else - he was talking about the same goddamn things Edwards has campaigned on.

In fact, Dean made a similiar comment far less artfully t

Jeez, that's right - I had forgotten about that.

It's the same thing.

*sigh* I'm beginning to think that the Republicans really are trying to keep that pot so stirred that we can't address the issue because it is something that keeps them winning. And then she goes and does the Republicans' job for them again.

QUOTE the central weakness remains. Obama is blaming his electoral fortunes among these people on the people themselves rather than on his own performance.And that is condescending UNQUOTE

Blame? Condescending ? It does seem to just go on and on.

Not just "bitter" as a disparagement , or "cling to the church" as elite secularism. Now Obama's electoral analysis is "condescending".

I haven't read what preceded his remark but I infer he was explaining that he trails among unemployed steelworkers because their bitterness makes them reluctant to vote for someone who's different.

Sounds like a plausible analysis but certainly debatable. Maybe his speeches don't work with those guys. Whatever.

Assuming it's actually valid-or that he even thinks it's true- what should he do? Lie? Is that his choice , either he's dishonest or he's condescending?.

Blame. If you say Wilt Chamberlain has to stoop to go through the door, you're not "blaming" him
you're telling him the door is low.

When his polls showed JFK he was losing because protestants objected to his catholicism
was it condescension for him to blame the protestants for Nixon's lead ? Or just an electoral analysis ? Like Obama's ?

How perfect is this. We take zaftig's cri de coeur and turn it into a lengthy illustration of what she's talking about...