This may be comparing apples to oranges but I'm Catholic and I didn't know that my Pastor was gay and may have brought lovers to the rectory. Even though people in the congregation knew about the rumors they did not walk out enmasse. Does that mean that each and every person is not one of character and should be judged.

"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character." - Copy to Clipboard
-- Martin Luther King Jr.

How far do we raise the bar on the "content". We don't know the frequency of these sermons. They may have been few and far between and not as inflammatory in their whole content. The "chickens coming home to roost" 9-11 sermon is referenced to a white ambassador speaking of American foreign policy. You don't think that Fox News keeps explaining that in the few minutes it pulls from the sermon.

I think you're right regarding the reasons to remain with the church. Like a family your loyalty and love grows to both the church and the church family including the pastor and you do overlook many things in a family. In the church we are taught to take our brother or sister aside for counsel and how do we know that didn't happen in this case.

The news media and the right get so self-righteous involving matters that they don't understand or in matters that should remain private and they're not privy too.

What do any of those questions, or their answers, have to do with whether he should be president?

But, as to question 1, you're obviously assuming people were paying attention to the specific words of the sermons. Honestly, if you go to chruch, how many sermons do you remember? How many have you talked about? You say these were "controversial" and people would have been talking about them, can you remember a single sermon you ever heard people talking about later?

And as to question 2, what he has clearly indicated is that he was a member of a faith community that he didn't want to leave. Believe it or not, there are millions of people in this nation who endure preachers who they think are greater fools than Jerimiah Wright because of their close ties to their fellow congregents. And spare me the "oh the children, think of the pooh deah children" crap. If over the course of their young lives Wright on occaision said something over the top, I assure you they were far too busy squirming in the pews and coloring on the bulletins and doing all the innumerable things little kids do to endure seemingly interminable church services to notice.

And, again, I ask you, what the hell does this have to do with whether you, or anyone else, should vote for him? Are you finding Hillary's bizarre, but secretive, religious associations that much less frightening?

I have nothing to add except that I think all the comments are intelligent so far, and that's nice to see.

Okay, I do have something to add, and it's that I don't care a fig about what his pastor said. I don't think his pastor has anything to do with Obama's capability or lack thereof.

Interesting response. I had not thought about the kids. I am not sure whether I agree with you or not, but it's a valid question.

Thanks for engaging me thoughtfully and politely.

Hi Left,
Though I'm one of those that does not see the Wright controversy as relevant to the presidential campaign or the challenges we're facing as a nation, I realize that reasonable people feel differently, and that when Obama's integrity gets called into question, that erodes one of his basic selling points. So I agree that it's worth trying to try answering your questions to your satisfaction. Michael Crowley may go some ways toward contextualizing the Trinity Church issue in his recent TNR blog post. I recommend you check it out:

http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_stump/archive/2008/04/29/why-d-obama-join-trinity-in-the-first-place.aspx

Hope this helps.

So does Obama pass your religious test for the presidency?

An article from TNR on the second question worth reading:
http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_stump/archive/2008/04/29/why-d-obama-join-trinity-in-the-first-place.aspx?CommentPosted=true

I was thinking about this today:
In the beginning of a relationship, which we often refer to as the honeymoon phase, everything is wonderful. Over time, as you learn more about the other person, some little things start to irk you. You look past them, because you love them. Sometimes those little things that nagged at you grow bigger, but you still look past them because you love them. And then one day, either something happens, or you simply wake up and realize that the person lying next to you is not the person you fell in love with. They've changed. Or you've changed. Either way, the relationship has changed. But it's hard to let that go. Out of loyalty, or the simple fact that love never really disappears, but changes and fades. It's that way with romantic relationships, and with friendships. I imagine it's a bit like that with Wright. Obama seemed genuinely sad today, and I felt for him.

This is the church that brought him to God. I am not a religious person, but I can understand the tie that might create. Perhaps in the beginning he was attracted to the fact that Rev. Wright said some out-there things. Those are the types of things that often provoke the most thought. And he seems like the kind of person who likes to be intellectually challenged. We often stand to learn the most from those who we disagree with most. And also, I think the community organizer in him really liked all the outreach programs they have, which are more extensive than most churches I have seen. And he probably developed ties with the congregation over time. Perhaps he could have chosen a church where everyone sat quietly in pews and the pastor chose more socially conservative sermonds, in order to better his political aspirations. But that would bother me more.

I think it's also important to remember that we don't go to church to worship our pastor. We go to church to connect with God and with our faith. And perhaps the walls of that church are where he felt that the most.

And one more thing: Obama never struck me as the kind of person who went to church regularly every Sunday. For one thing, his church was in Chicago and when he became a U.S. Senator he spent half his time in Washington.

But I agree with Lis. The only way I can see this affecting his ability as a President would be if he held the views that Wright does. Which he does not. Billy Glad made a comment in another post the other day, in reference to Obama's "problem" with working class whites. He said that you have to understand the problem first, before you can solve it. I see a lot of people asking how Obama would ever 'bridge the racial divide'. I hold no expectations that he will solve it. But I think he's got a great chance at moving it forward, because I do think he understands it, from both sides. And part of the reason he understands it is because he's listened to the Rev. Wrights of the world. And his grandmother. And mother. And stepfather. Etc, etc, etc.

And thanks for promoting a real discussion rather than the gloom and doom we've been doing all day. :)

Whatever happened to the concept of the Separation of Church and State?

An individual's religious or spiritual beliefs should be a private matter. I find it rather intolerant that a tradition has been established in this country that a candidate has to be a Christian to be electable for our highest office.

"for our highest office." to our highest office, is what I meant to say.

When Obama joined Trinity, it was NOT 'the church to belong to' in Chicago. Jeremiah Wright was NOT, nor has he EVER been ' hooked up' to the political structure of Chicago. IF Obama wanted to belong to a church that could give him the 'political hookup', he would have joined another church back then.

Obama knew it would be a problem for him, but why do so many people overlook the underlying psychology of what Obama found at Trinity? Why do they overlook that this man Wright was probably the first Black Male Mentor he truly connected with in his life. Why is that so discarded. And, through Wright's teachings - not the whacky- but the fire and brimstone and very CONSERVATIVE (social) values he taught, he helped shape Obama into a husband and father, so that he WOULD NOT repeat the mistakes of his father. Wouldn't you have a hard time breaking away from someone who gave that to you?

NC Steve-

My point is: there are likely alot of people who are wondering why an adult would "subject" their children to "hateful" language or crackpot sermons. This is NOT my personal concern but what I fear worries the so called "blue-collar" or "average joes". They may wonder about Obama's judgement because of it. All of his judgement? No, of course, but it is simply something they will take into consideration.

I think this doesn't have anything to do with religion per se, but judgement. And I'm simply suggesting that alot of folks(not here at TPM)won't get the nuance.