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My Problem with Obama Supporters

When Obama first made his debut, I thought "Wow!  A fresh outlook."Then I heard he was for nuclear power, and made the mistake of asking why.I was promptly thrown off of Daily Kos.  For this, after all, was Obama.   One dare not look to close.I later found the answer to my question in this NYT piece:http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/03/us/politics/03exelon.html?hp
I doubt if any Obama supporters bothered to read that article?I have never gotten one to explain exactly why he supports Obama.The articles here don't give me much.  They are all about demonizing Hillary Clinton, and how she should get out.But exactly why do you think Obama will make a great president?Our foremost progressive economist says that his health plan is light and Republican.  And Clinton's is the real thing.http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/04/opinion/04krugman.html?em&ex=1202446800&en=6cf40a3439173a04&ei=5087%0A
It doesn't seem like Obama supporters care that his economic and health plans are to the right.But I think I finally realize the reason for their unswerving loyalty:They support Obama for the same reason the right wing embraced Bush:Obama is the guy you would rather have a beer with.Today, Paul Krugman came out with another excellent article on our present sad, political state.http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/25/opinion/25krugman.html?hp
But why read intelligent pieces, when Daily Kos is there to tell you what you want to hear.


Comments (32)

Honestly, I can understand why you have a problem with Obama supporters. He has flaws and we do not dwell on them. Similarly, Clinton supporters do not dwell on her flaws. Barack and Hillary supporters alike are able to put things in perspective: The like their potential nominee despite some of their flaws; no one is perfect and they are willing to accept the flaws in the short term to move toward the larger goal.

We are no different from Hillary supporters who are kindly ignoring her flaws/supporting her despite them, and I am fine with it that they are doing it, except when they post articles and make claims like yours.

You haven't showed me any strengths except his speaking well.

I never commented to you on how well he spoke so it is fair to say I didn't show you anything at all.

Look, I am not going to justify why I like Barack to you. If you have done your homework, you would know that he is more than a speech giver. I am not your teacher. Honestly, you don't have to like him to be fair enough to say that he has more substance than merely giving speeches. I support Obama but I can easily say that Hillary Clinton is smart, capable, tough, committed, and could potentially be a great American president despite her flaws. However, I think Barack is better.

I agree with jdw.
The other difference is that our candidate has a path to the nomination, whereas your's does not.

Agreed.

I will not have political relations with that woman.

Actually, I'm for nuclear power as well, and I knew about his Exelon connections for at least a year (I had to do a project about lobbyists).

the biggest problem with nuclear power is nuclear waste which poisons the earth for an eternity. And Cherbynol is a ghost land of empty buildings, homes, playgrounds. There isn't a lot of earth left to sacrifice.,

So now we're going to get into an issues debate, huh? ^_~ Fine. I agree that we definitely need to find something to do with the nuclear waste. We also do need to tighten safety standards, etc. (which I am aware Obama tried and failed in the article). I also think that Chernobyl in general is a shock story. The chances of something like it happening here are miniscule (especially if we increase safety standards - Chernobyl occured because Russia was slip-shod about it). In addition, it's a good energy source with zero carbon emissions. It requires less space than wind and doesn't destroy habitats the way hydropower does. I do think that we should ideally do a scientific push to find a way to dispose of the waste safely.

Unfortunately, nuclear power is probably the way we will have to go. The waste is a definite problem that has to be dealt with. To me, it's a pragmatic solution to the problem, but not one without costs, as is all things involving life here on Earth. And herein lies the reason I like Obama. He makes no qualms about the costs and benefits of solutions. He weighs both and makes a decision accordingly. I've seen him do it multiple times, some of which I've disagreed, but can see the way he has made his judgement. Cap and trade is another issue he has done that, inner city housing is another. The list goes on. His advisors are a different sort than we've seen from most administrations. They are a pragmatic bunch that approach issues from a problem solving perspective regardless of ideology. Some people don't like that; I do.

I'm for Obama's health plan over Clinton's because I think it could actually be passed and that a plan that mandates that adults purchase health insurance for themselves would face the same fate it always has, failure.
I'm for Obama's foreign policy over Clinton's because I agree with his premise that talking with our enemies doesn't make us weaker and disagree with Clinton that such talks would give despots legitimacy. Saying you will talk with your enemies doesn't require you not to make it clear they are a despt.
I'm for Obama's domestic policies over Clinton's because they are more about getting things done than simply scoring political points.
I'm for Obama over Hillary because his character, trustworthiness and integrity are significantly greater than hers.
I'm for Obama over Clinton because I don't think our country has only two families with the ability to lead us.
I could go on but hopefully you get the point. I'm for Obama over Hillary because I've studied their positions, and their character, and find him to be far superior to her on almost every measure out there.

Love your name Facts are good. Let's try to stick to facts shall we, rather than simplistic distortions of both Clinton and Obama's policies and statements in your analysis.

Clinton has made clear that she WILL talk to our enemies and reintroduce through diplomatic contacts, but will nto promise a presidential face to face meeting in her first year because diplomacy is not just about face-time particulaly if it send sthe wrong message - it is about the hard work of engotiations. Obama made the mistake of saying in his first year he would personally meet with our enemies with no preconditions. This was a debate with Biden, Dodd, Edwards, etc etc. Hillary called him on his simplistic foolish diplomatic policy and everyone sided with Hillary...except for the Elf Kucinich. Obama's in fine company. Immediately following the debate Mr. Plouffe clarified to say Obama was not promising direct face to face talks and obviously preparation was necessary. Preparation is a precondition. Obama's campaign has to reclarify his position to be almost the same as Hillary's after his initial gaffe, and they distort her position to say she won't talk to our enemies. That's beyond a distortiojn - it is a flat out lie and anyone repeating it should be ashamed that they are basically regurgitating talking points without even a glimmer of independent thought or knowledge.

Obama's health care plan is setting up a massive failure where healthcare costs will skyrocket. Why? If universal access is guaranteed (meaning you have to have access to affordable healthcare at any time) and universal coverage is not mandated, then people who decide not to be covered are not paying into the system, but they are entitled to emergency care. So why not choose to not be covered until you are sick when you are guaranteed coverage once you do get sick and can then pick up coverage then? Can you drop coverage like a health plan at work and only actively choose it when you expect to get sick? What this means is the people who expect to need healthcare the most are going to elect it (driving up premiums) and the people who can afford healthcare but choose not to are going to be the destruction of the system. Every fair and unbiased analysis says Hillary's plan reduces costs more and covers more people. Does it take more political will and courage to do it? Absolutely. Which goes against the storyline Hillary will say anything to win - she knows it's controversial but she advocates it becaus eit is the right thing to do. Obama is the one playing political games with healthcare.

Obama's character, trustworthiness and integirty may be apparent to you, but I find him to be manipulative, slick, fails to address key issues and very talented at deflecting real issues so that he passes the blame that belongs to him off on other people. The respect I may have had for him at the beginning of his campaign with the hope of "new politics" quickly evaporated when it became clear that he is the same old, same old with a better marketing campaign.

Finally if you don't want to vote for Hillary just because her last name is Clinton, you have every right to do so. But I recall the Clinton years as a time of vast economic growth - shared across lower-class, middle-class and wealthy. I remember it as a time when the US had moral authority in the world. I remember it as a time when we made hard choices that truly required bipartisan work (responsible and compassionate welfare reform, pay-go/reducing the national debt/more assistance for child care, FMLA act, etc. etc. etc.) I don' get the people who demonize the Clintons as if everything they ever did was bad. They did a lot of good for this country and I, like Chelsea, believe that Hillary will be a better president than he ever was. Hillary's principles are unwavering even in the face of criticism - healthcare, don't ask don't tell. Bill was more willing to waver int he face of what was polticially the right thing to do. Hillary's a fighter and will do what she truly believes.

So snippets do not equal facts. Support your candidate, but please don't do so by spreading lies about mine.

I'll admit I'm on the fence about nuclear. And I have read the article about Exelon previously. The point is, as others have noted, is that Obama, Clinton, and McCain, as human beings, are all flawed (just as we all are.). I do not agree with any of them on every single detail of their policies, positions, etc. But I'm not sure I've ever agreed with any candidate on every single issue, or anyone for that matter.

I make it a point to read articles arguing on all sides. I find that it is usually the columns with which I disagree most that provoke the most thought.

With regards to the economic policy, I have read Krugman's piece. I have also read other pieces refuting his column. Either way, it should be noted that these columns are all opinions.

And with regards to health care, yes, he is further right than her. To be sure, his position is still certainly to the left of center. One point that should be made is that it is highly likely that neither of their proposals on health care will make it through without serious chopping. And a second point that should be made is that some actually do like his plan better. That also, of course, is a matter of opinion.

And I could tell you why I think he would make a great President, but I'm not really sure you're interested in hearing. Shall I?

I would very much like to hear why you think he would make a great president.
But only in specifics. Phrases like "he has the tools to mend the racial divide," don't mean a thing, because I live and work in a multi racial environment, and saw no evidence of a divide until Obama's campaign began exploiting it.

"I live and work in a multi racial environment, and saw no evidence of a divide until Obama's campaign began exploiting it..."

So, because you saw no evidence, the case is closed? That's might white of you, Massa Slumlord!

I tried to post a response on here but I got the dreaded "Your comment must be approved by the blog owner" page, which seems to mean it disappears forever. Anyone know why that happens?

Anyway, I posted it instead as a blog.

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/04/why-i-support-obama-1.php

It probably contained too many links. The guard bot suspects it is spam.

I support Obama, would gladly voter for Clinton over McCain, and haven't visited Daily Kos for well over a year and a half, as I find it too shrill and tit-for-tatty for my taste.

I support Obama because he is not pursuing the unsuccessful DLC inspired campaign we have seen from democrats during the last 25 years, which counsels that candidates should assume positions on issues based upon what republicans might have to say about those positions. The electorate(not to mention the world) has changed in the last 25 years, a fact that apparently escapes those who continue to hew to DLC orthodoxy (Clinton, Bayh, and etc.).

I support Obama as he has attracted legions of young folks into the process and because he is way more likely to say things we need to hear not what we want to hear. For example, telling automakers that CAFE standards must be strengthened and including advocacy of equal rights for gays in his standard stump speech, and not just to pander to gay audiences. I support Obama because he promises to talk to other nations, rather than engaging in hyperbolic threats of "obliterating" their countries.

I support Obama because he advocates an end to the ridiculous 45 year Cuba travel and trade bans which have done nothing at all for the Cuban people, and has done so at the risk of alienating the Cuban oligarch exiles who, through their financial generosity, enjoy inordinate political influence in FL and, to a somewhat lesser extent, in NJ. To his non-DLC, "fifty state" campaign, winning FL is not crucial. (Remember Gore would have won the electoral vote if he had won another state with only 3 electoral college votes.)

I believe Clinton voted to authorize the Iraq adventure, for Kyl-Lieberman, against prohibiting the sales of cluster bombs, and etc., in accordance with DLC orthodoxy, to preempt republican charges of being soft on military and defense matters. Further, her vote to ban flag burning, after the Supreme Court (including Ghengis Scalia) had already ruled such unconstitutional, was nothing but bare pandering to the most retrogressive amongst us.

Finally, don't presume to tell me why I support Obama.

I think those who find it necessary to place folks into tidy little categories, in this case all Obama supporters, do so to conserve space in their small minds which are unable to contend with the many shades of gray of which the world and its people and their ideas are composed.

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if you're voting on a single, highly debatable issue....

you're an idiot.

there are many very strong, clear reasons why Obama is the best candidate in this election, or even in a generation. these reasons are easily found and considered by anyone willing to read articles about Obama in newspapers or blogs with anything resembling an objective frame of reference.

Krugman has degenerated into inanity when he talks about politics. his columns are painfully predictable and he's lost a great deal of respect.

As for Hillary's Health Care Plan, her staunchest defenders in the Senate pretty publcly pronounced it DOA already.

Who might that be? Can you provide some sourcing for your comments?

I tried to post a link, but couldn't.

Read David Sirota's blog at Huffpo from yesterday.

Schumer and another Clinton supporter (Meeks?) basicallly said that Health Care wouldn't be on the table ince there was no money for it.

Okay in reading the actual article, they cast doubt on being able to pay for BOTH candidates plans - Clinton & Obama - so your assertion that Hillary's plan is DOA also goes for Obama. Secondly, it is about national priorities. Hillary has plans to pay for her health care plan and Congress will need to partner with the president to get it done. There was an uproar when Bill Clinton used his political clout for his top priority and raised taxes on the middle class and some dems lost theri seats, but it was the RIGHT thing to do, just like universal healthcare. We are the only industrial country without universal healthcare and we mope and groan about skyrocketing costs, but don't take the steps necessary to fix the problem once and for all. I have no doubt Hill will use her political clout for her top priority - healthcare for all. Obama admittedly doesn't believe in mandated universal healthcare at all. How serious is he then about pushing through the modest proposals that he does have?

Since Hillary (and her political clout) pretty much destroyed the idea of Universal Health Care back in '93-'94 , I was merely pointing out the fallacy of choosing your candidate on the basis of their Health Care Plan anyway.

It isn't gonna happen until we get lots more Dems in Congress (and we've seen the Clinton Coattails for down ticket candidates back in the 90s)and we end the War (which Hillary supported and doesn't regret supporting it and appears to be saber rattling for another conflict now).

When those two parameters change, then we can argue about Health Care Plans.

Hillary was not President then. Bill was. Healthcare was her top priority, reducing the debt was his. When he had to use his political clout, he did. Healthcare is HER top priority and if she is elected president, she can and will get it done. And those working class whites that Obama has such difficulty winning over - they care about bread and butter issues like healthcare, jobs, economic policy.

If Obama had the moral courage to stand for true universal healthcare in his plan, he could have taken a step towards reasuring those voters that he does care about their issues. He runs ads falsely claiming Hillary is going to garnish their checks thinking they'll all run to him, but the truth is people understand the magnitude of the problems we face and are looking for a leader that can tackle the tough issues head on. This goes far beyond his healthcare plan - it is saying what people want to hear and then failing to carry through on his words (end the iraq war in his senate run & then identical voting record to senator clinton in the Senate). If Obama really wanted to end the war he would have voted for Jack Murtha's (who supports Hillary) amendment but he didn't.

falsely claiming Hillary is going to garnish their checks thinking they'll all run to him

If you believe a mandate is the way to go, then you can't pick and choose, leaving out what might be construed to some as bad. If there is a mandate, there has to be a way of enforcing it. She specifically said she would be willing to consider wage garnishment. Then she tries to hedge on it. Well if you are of the opinion that universal health care means a mandate, than you have to be straightforward about how to achieve that. Or moral courage, as you call it. Edwards did. Clinton has not - instead she tries to play both sides of the coin, hedging on whether or not she will garnish wages, which is widely believed to be the only real way of enforcing a mandate. Obama has not made clear either how he intends to enforce his mandate on children. I think they're both playing politics with this mandate business, because I think they both doubt that it will ever get passed.

From the 'Hill':"Congressional Democrats are backing away from healthcare reform promises made by their two presidential candidates, saying that even if their party controls the White House and Congress, sweeping change will be difficult...Sen. Charles Schumer (N.Y.), a member of Senate Democratic leadership and a key Hillary Clinton ally who also sits on the Finance Committee, said he is 'not sure we have the big plan on healthcare.'...'Healthcare I feel strongly about, but I am not sure that we're ready for a major national healthcare plan,' Schumer said...Rep. Kendrick Meek (D-Fla.), a Clinton supporter who sits on the House Ways and Means Committee, said "the money is not necessarily there right now" to enact the plans."

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We are beyond caring why you have a problem with us, just as you are beyond caring why we have a problem with you. You are not looking to engage in a rational discussion, you want to engage in psychological warfare.

But, the real problem for you is that the voters have already decided. Its too late. Her only hope, as you know, is get the supers to overturn Obama's inevitable primary victory without destroying her GE chances in the process. So, she needs trolls like yourself to try and grease the skids for her predictable convention coup attempt.

When you understand the nature of a thing it becomes easy to predict how it will behave.

Wow - you are living in a fantasy world. The voters have not all decided yet. The primary has not been won by Obama yet. Victory is defined as 2,025 delegates int he primary, not who has a lead before the super delegates.

"To become the Democratic nominee for president, a candidate needs to capture 2,025 delegate votes. State primaries and caucuses select pledged delegates, who are obligated to vote for the candidate their state chose. Additional unpledged delegates — consisting mostly of party leaders and elected officials — are free to vote for any candidate. Daily delegate totals reflect all delegates allotted to the state, even though some may not pledge their vote until a later date."


Dem's the rules. Quit spinning and trying to run out the clock on the nomination process. He was doing better when he was trying to be inspirational speaker and his plans for the country than when he and his supporters just started playing the numbers game and "prevent" defense. I've never seen a candidate have such difficulty closing the deal. Normally people start bandwagon jumping on the perceived nominee, but not in this cas. Despite the incessant marketing campaign by Obama supporters and the complicity of the media - it ain't over. Deal with it. And may the best candidate win.

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A lot of this problem is because most human decision making occurs on the right (non-verbal) side of the brain and is a little difficult to articulate. Drew Westen's The Political Brain(6/07) addressed this. Unfortunately, after the Dems went overboard with George Lakof's linguistic concepts in '04 - that were far short - they paid far too little attention to Westen. I actually thought Obama had been consulting with him. Turns out he is one of those people who uses the concepts intuitively (and therefore is not as consistant). It explains why he is able to 'connect' with many voters, not to mention people all over the world who are also excited about the prospect of an Obama presidency. (http://www.theworldwantsobama.org)

The campaign has several aspects that are interwoven.

-The increasing awareness by a critical mass that we have reached a period in history that does not simply need change. It needs transformational change. The old ways haven't worked and aren't going to magically start working now.

-An intuitive or evidence based understanding that the root causes are well below the surface. The amount of lobbyist influence on legislation, the inability of Congress to accomplish much because of that, and the ultimate power behind it all. $$$ The nuclear bill is an excellent example. My ex is an environmental engineer. He was in charge of Alaska's Dept of Env Eng hazardous waste management. Worked with the oil companies. Obama's bill, in the reality we think of as government, was about as good as you can get - on a first try. To do more, you need a regulatory agency that is staffed to do it's job, and a Congressional majority that is willing to buck the establishment power brokers. (Try The Broken Branch to get a handle on the disempowerment of Congress)

-An understanding and constantly emphasized agreement that this is not just about what Obama can do. It is about what We the People can do from the bottom, if we have an Obama that is willing to listen and lead from the top. I simply cannot emphasize how important this is. See the Obama ads at MoveOn. It is a reality that too many voters and politicians have simply ignored or avoided for decades. To keep a Republic, the people MUST be involved in governing. The responsibility does not stop when you exit the voting booth. The fact that the changes are so deep and extensive just adds to it.

-Rev Wright said something that added another piece for me, especially when I listened to an Obama speech last night from MLKs church just before the Holiday. Politicians say things the way they have to say them - in order to politically survive and succeed. You can't be too obvious about what you might be willing to consider if it will unleash a concerted effort to stop you - from the invested power brokers. You also can't be too specific or grandiose in laying out any plans because you and everyone who is grounded in reality knows that any plans a President has will get turned over to Congress to be made into legislation. This is appropriate, it just tends to get left out of the candidate selection process. We talk like we think the individual is going to do something they actually can't. Mostly because the WH has a lot of power the Constitution actually doesn't give it. It can be used constructively or not. It is highly limited without a Congress that is willing to cooperate.

- The increase in Congressional majorities will play a big role in what can and can't be done. Saw a headline yesterday (I ended up not getting to read the article) about how members of Congress are saying that health care reform will be limited due to money and complexity. We know from polls and the endorsements of red and purple state politicians, especially governors, Obama will help the down ticket races a lot more than Hillary.

In listening to that speech I picked up some key words on health care that told me Obama is aware of where we need to go in health care.(I don't buy Krugman's opinion, much as I generally respect him. Been in health care 31 years, the plan is not out there yet). Getting there is going to be a huge battle and on a simply practical level, has to be incremental. Don't get off on secret agendas. Nothing can be done with out massive support from the public, and massive work by Congress and HHS.

I suspect Obama supporters are all in the state of mind that we have too much to do, too much to lose if we don't get started ASAP. Hillary thinks she will be ready to hit the ground running on day one. My problem is she won't be running in the right direction. Is Obama a risk? No shtuff. And I doubt you will find many casual gamblers in his supporters. Just people who know that at this point we've been off track so long we need someone who has the best chance of finding the right one. Because he is very willing to pay attention to the people.

After all the years of Dems wanting a candidate who connects and articulates well, who is a real progressive; it is hard to understand why so many cling to the past. In comparison to the GOP presidencies that we have had since '80, Clinton was very good. But some of what he succeeded at was due to very different circumstances. We were not at war in two countries, the national fiscal situation was nowhere near as bad, and the causes of some of our problems are what he did during his administration. Will Obama make mistakes. Absolutely. But he has no emotional investment in sustaining the Clinton errors.

Now when I first saw the video on this, it struck me as another unfounded attack. Then I came across this information. Methinks we don't need a candidate with this kind of legal activity going on. http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/04/what-hillary-clinton-and-the-m-1.php

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If you're going to bitch about nuclear power, educate yourself before you start bitching. The left is just like the right when it comes to certain sciences that it does not like: outright smearing, lies, and distortions and contortions. I read the Nuclear Regulatory Commission's report on the so called "nuclear leaks" and the amount that actually "leaked" was nothing more than background radiation. You'll have a better chance of getting radiation poisoning by living next to a coal plant than you will to one of these "leaked" nuclear plants.

And contrary to what every Clintonista seems to think, the left didn't divorce Hillary, she divorced the left and started centralizing herself for many years even before the primary election. She has only herself to blame.

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For people who bitch about nuclear power plants, have you even been inside one? Do you guys even know the science and the engineering? We could have a 3 Mile incident every year and it would still be less environmentally damaging than coal plants.

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