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Impeachment Still Off Table?
Given the latest revelations of the obvious culpability of the administration in war crimes, we will have trouble bringing cases in the future if we let this one go. But I expect it will slowly evaporate, as the campaign heats up, and we will wear the mantle of a huge but crumbling, corrupt and venal, clueless and spineless former democracy.
Let's remember that, thanks to Bush and cronies, we are the butt of jokes around the world, the target of terrorists, seeing our monetary system failing, and our safety regulators colluding with their "clients", the enablers of prima-facie war crimes such as torture and wars of aggression, and the folks left holding the bag of snarling cats that is Iraq.
And we aren't hauling the idiots that brought us to this state into court? It is true that we will have to publicly acknowledge the crimes we have allowed to happen, but denial, while an alternate spelling for that North African waterway, is not sufficient to make the rest of the world forget that we were more stupid than the Soviets in their Afghan invasion, more incompetent than the captain of the Exxon Valdez, and so easily swayed by propaganda that it's damned lucky for us that there were no serious Hitlers around.
Let's start hammering the House leadership on this.










Comments (29)
And putting Cheney in the office of the Prez for a couple of months is going to help how? I can't disagree with the sentiment, but the time for it to be feasible is long past. The best chance to throw the bums out of the executive branch was in 2004. (Some say we Americans deserve the administration a majority re-elected.) The time to send a message to the Dem leaders is in the upcoming Congressional primaries. Doubt there's much chance of denying Pelosi her seat, but that's the only practical way to effect your sense of justice at this point.
April 11, 2008 6:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
You impeach Cheney first. Whoever Bush decides to replace him with has to be approved by Congress.
Still, 'tis all but a pipe dream.
April 11, 2008 6:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Indeed, and going after them simultaneously would take too long to finish before next January. (And there's certainly not time to get them back to back.) So pick one. But just taking on Cheney's not worth it if you can't get W. I wish we'd gone after Cheney when Kucinich first filed. Sigh...
April 11, 2008 6:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
I have to say that in terms of the political game (all of your moral concerns aside) that impeachment is a dead horse.
A) The leadership is not that organized, nor powerfull.
B) At a time when we are all shooting to replace those at the top, it would cast the Dems (via the MSM) in a particularly bad light.
Remember - a vast majority of Americans are only against some of these supposed bad things (like the war in Iraq) because they think that it affects the price of gasoline, and they are not fond of dead soldiers. Beyond that, the critical thinking drops off the charts.
April 11, 2008 6:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
I feel ya, Tom. History will judge us harshly for failing to impeach these guys, no doubt. But I don't think we have the political will out there to get this done.
However, what are the chances these guys will be tried as war criminals after Bush is out of office? Anyone want to comment?
April 11, 2008 6:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah! I'm liking that idea. Does that have to go through the ICC, though? We don't recognize their jurisdiction when it comes to Americans. :-(
April 11, 2008 7:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm assuming you mean tried as war criminals in the international courts?
If that's the case, then very low chance. Blair is being floated as the first President of the EU. If Bush and gang were brought up on war crimes, that could seriously affect Mr Blair's term as EU President.
Also, the ICC can only hear war crimes if the ravaged country cannot try the defendant themselves. Either because the country is a failed state with no working jurisprudence. (reason 1 why Saddam Hussein was tried in Iraq; they "proved" Iraq had a working legal system. the other reason Hussein wasn't tried in the ICC was because the ICC's mandate didn't start until 2002; way after his atrocities). Or, because the history of the crimes would make it impossible for a fair trial (why Uganda and DRC requested the ICC to take over war crimes against Kony and Ngudjolo Chui, respectively).
Unless Maliki wants his personal bodyguards shipped out fast, there's no way he would refer Bush to the ICC.
Now, domestically? No idea how that would work for war crimes.
April 11, 2008 7:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Something from the U.S. Code, maybe?
April 11, 2008 7:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
More evidence of Bush administration crimes are floating to the surface. Over the next decade, I think the truth will become even more apparent and the actual crimes more unspeakable.
If no act of impeachment is taken, history will judge this congress not only unfavorably, but negligent.
April 11, 2008 7:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Don't hold your breath. Do you remember the Iran/Contra affair?
April 11, 2008 7:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree, Tom. This is completely Pelosi's fault with Conyers help. I assume Bush has dirt on somebody which would come out if impeachment were put on the table.
April 11, 2008 8:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
There is of course no absolute need for an impeachment to take long. There is of course a likelihood it will. Tough.
We missed the opportunity, last summer, to act before the campaign got going. I just hate the fact that my children are young adults in a world where my country is an embarrassment.
Iran-Contra was the first resurfacing of Rumsfeld and Cheney, who made their bones under Ford. This bunch is a recurring infection, and we didn't finish the course of antibiotics. So new clones, like Feith and Yoo, exhibit the genetic signature of dreams of world domination combined with imperial paranoia.
The good news might be that as we decline we won't have to worry about more airplanes hitting our skyscrapers. We just have to worry about our own airplanes falling apart, and our bridges, and our food supply, and our drinking water, along with our economy.
April 11, 2008 8:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
With no chance of getting the Senate to vote a conviction, it's an empty exercise in political theater. Much as I'd love to see President Obama point at Bush and Cheney on the stand in January and order their arrest (from my keyboard to God's monitor!), impeachment without conviction accomplishes nothing. Literally nothing.
And spare me "getting the truth out" please. The truth has been out all along. It's what gets done with it. And once again, without that Senate conviction, nothing gets done even with a Bill of Impeachment.
April 11, 2008 8:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
Would get us a Special Prosecutor. DUM DA DUM DUM. DUM. Criminal charges possible even after they leave office.
April 11, 2008 9:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sign me up. Cheney first or at the same time, of course. I just want a Special Prosecutor, and if we wait until we win the Presidency we won't be able to do it. Look too much like a political pogrom.
April 11, 2008 9:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes to all.
April 11, 2008 9:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Billy,
Likely as not, the only way that you will ever see a special prosecutor is with a Democrat in the White House.
One item many seem to forget today is that Impeachment is only half of the process. If the House of Representatives impeaches someone, there still has to be a trial in the U S Senate.
Let's not forget that the Republicans did have a 55 to 45 majority when Clinton was impeached but they senate couldn't even convict him. Today's senate Democrats barely have a simple majority and that is only if you count Lieberman, who has been spending most of his time giving McCain hand jobs.
So as Gman08 pointed out before, an impeachment trail under the current setting, would only be political theater. There ain't no way the Republicans would impeach anyone, which is different from a number of honorable Republicans who were in office during the Watergate Hearings.
Of course, that is exactly why Nixon resigned. He knew that he would also be convicted. Democrats held the Senate 60 to 40 that year.
April 11, 2008 9:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think if the House impeaches we have to have a Special Prosecutor going forward to the Senate. Obviously, the Senate won't convict, but the SP will stay in place and hound Bush/Cheney and their neo-con cronies. The SP can bring criminal charges. A Republican President might pardon them, but a Democratic President might not. Pelosi won't do it, though. I'm not easy to shock, but I was shocked when she took impeachment "off the table." Sometimes I think she's not very smart. The way it all played out they just said fine, take impeachment off the table. We're staying in Iraq.
April 12, 2008 12:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
Here's how it will go:
Bush & Cheney will suffer historical lows in job approval and other ratings, through the inauguration of President Obama. For the time until then, and for the next six to eight months afterward, evidence and information will come to light which increasingly turns the public toward actual prosecution of conspirators in this defrauding of the American people. August or September 2009, criminal cases are brought against a list of people including most of those listed below.
These trials may happen in Iraq, The United States, or in the ICC, but rest assured, the cases will be well-built before double jeopardy hangs on any, and it will take an expensive and bitterly unflattering defense to acquit any defendant.
Following criminal conviction, and with larger majorities in both houses of Congress, quick and certain Impeachment and conviction of many conspirators will remove them from any lasting benefits of current office, including federal pension and Secret Service detail. Meanwhile, it won't be minsec, but closer to pound-in-the-ass prison. (I'd like to see Cheney's smirk then.)
Who will be on the List? Here's a start (feel free to add any you think belong on it):
George W. Bush
Dick Cheney
David Addington
Donald Rumsfeld
John Yoo
John Ashcroft
Douglas Feith
Richard Perle
Condoleeza Rice
George Tenet
Alberto Gonzalez
Ari Fleischer
Scott McClellan
Monica Goodling
William Kristol
Stephen Hadley
Scooter Libby
Karl Rove
Some will turn States' Evidence, and this will help to hang those who don't.
April 11, 2008 9:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
From your mouth to Dog's ears...if only.
I fear the toilet-paper long roll of pardons in jollyroger's scenario though.
April 12, 2008 4:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
Tom, I agree with you on this issue. We can always find a million and one reasons not to push forward now. Surely House Dems will cite a long list. The invectives they will hear from "the other side" will not be a bit pleasant. Was there ever a bunch of sorrier losers than the G.O.P.? Two reasons for hammering away now are, one, the adage "Justice delayed is justice denied." In general, the law seems to favor the innocent party who, when he is convinced he has been done a grievous wrong, seeks a legal remedy. Foot-dragging, on the other hand, can be easily construed as a belief that one may be on shaky legal ground. And second, the simple principle of "You just never know." Consider two such cases. Bill Clinton: who could have foreseen the shocking success of him being impeached for the reason he was: private sexual behavior. Do you think Thomas Jefferson, of all people, could have predicted that scenario? Number two is Richard Nixon's Resignation: the Watergate burglars were caught in June, 1972. That story died down a million and one times before his resignation in August, 1974. Certain people, only a handful at times, just kept pulling a little string here and a little string there and would not just "let it go," even when employers, spouses, friends etc., etc.,accused them of acting delusionsl. I spent part of that time in France, and the sneering comments I endured from certain Parisians ("You absurdly naive, idealistic Americans!") were unsettling, to say the least. But, no mountain is built in a day, a mob can only be assembled one person at a time, and sometimes a little luck plays an unseen hand. And nothing at all happens unless true believers do what they feel they have to do as soon as they are convinced of the necessity of doing it.
April 11, 2008 9:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Kevin Bacon is promoting a "Call Congress" day on Earth Day. I tried to get something like that going last summer, in particular a coordinated email campaign. I felt that, while phone banks can clog, or be turned off, email whould just stack up at servers. Shutting them down would only delay the mail.
It would require single, personal messages, to avoid spam filters. And many reps and senators have email forms one uses. But the House leadership would accept mail from non-constituents in their official role.
April 11, 2008 10:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
Tom, I agree with you on this issue. We can always find a million and one reasons not to push forward now. Surely House Dems will cite a long list. The invectives they will hear from "the other side" will not be a bit pleasant. Was there ever a bunch of sorrier losers than the G.O.P.? Two reasons for hammering away now are, one, the adage "Justice delayed is justice denied." In general, the law seems to favor the innocent party who, when he is convinced he has been done a grievous wrong, seeks a legal remedy. Foot-dragging, on the other hand, can be easily construed as a belief that one may be on shaky legal ground. And second, the simple principle of "You just never know." Consider two such cases. Bill Clinton: who could have foreseen the shocking success of him being impeached for the reason he was: private sexual behavior. Do you think Thomas Jefferson, of all people, could have predicted that scenario? Number two is Richard Nixon's Resignation: the Watergate burglars were caught in June, 1972. That story died down a million and one times before his resignation in August, 1974. Certain people, only a handful at times, just kept pulling a little string here and a little string there and would not just "let it go," even when employers, spouses, friends etc., etc.,accused them of acting delusionsl. I spent part of that time in France, and the sneering comments I endured from certain Parisians ("You absurdly naive, idealistic Americans!") were unsettling, to say the least. But, no mountain is built in a day, a mob can only be assembled one person at a time, and sometimes a little luck plays an unseen hand. And nothing at all happens unless true believers do what they feel they have to do as soon as they are convinced of the necessity of doing it.
April 11, 2008 9:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
Who will be on the List? Here's a start (feel free to add any you think belong on it):
This is the list of *names that will follow the sentence:
I, George W. Bush, President (it's still January 19, 2009) hereby pardon and remit from any and all liability for any and all offenses, whether presently charged, or to be charged, known or unknown, the following individuals:
**We are well and truly fucked...
Our only hope is Balthazar Garzon, and his brethren exercising universal war crimes jurisdiction (NOT the ICC, incidentally, whose jurisdiction rests upon the acquiescence of the signatory states, of whom we are not one.)
*(also expect some blanket pardons by category, such as "any and all employees of the following agencies, etc.)
**impeachment is not a remedy because there are not 67 votes in the Senate to convict. The hurdle is insurmountable, absent (as the old joke goes) "a live boy or a dead girl..."
April 11, 2008 11:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
"**impeachment is not a remedy because there are not 67 votes in the Senate to convict. The hurdle is insurmountable, absent (as the old joke goes) "a live boy or a dead girl..."
... but if all the Democrats in the House voted for impeachment we would have impeachment. The info that would come out during all the hearings leading up to the vote would get at a lot of dirt that's been swept under the carpet of "executive privilege". That might sway the House to impeach and the Senate to convict. Putting these people through impeachment would give some accountability and let future executive branch people know that they won't have total impunity.
April 12, 2008 8:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
The info that would come out during all the hearings leading up to the vote would get at a lot of dirt that's been swept under the carpet of "executive privilege".
Time is not on our side.
The prior jurisprudence on this issue (The Nixon Tapes) teaches us that absent an expedited review (by a Supreme Court called back from vacation--(the horror!) the *stonewall will not be dismantled until the long after the issue becomes moot by the inauguration of President Obama in 2009.
In other words, the House Judiciary Committee (where Conyers has shown some real enthusiasm on the impeachable offenses front) will sit there with its collective thumb up its collective ass and never get an enforceable order for the necessary testimony.
Consider further, that should the house choose to proceed directly to imprisonment of a recalcitrant witness (as is their prerogative under the criminal contempt jurisdiction inherent in the separation of powers) they have merely produced another occasion for a presidential pardon.
Money talks, treason walks, as the old expression used to have it.
From this perspective, our only hope is to roll over the rocks AFTER the changing of the guard, so that the House Seargeant at Arms (at least) will be able to sidestep the Supreme Court on the subpoena issues.
*(Cf, for instance, the time between the Cheney energy Cabal meetings, and the final decision (in this case supporting executive privelege) by that crew of clowns in black robes permitting the continued suppression of the information sought through judicial discovery.)
April 12, 2008 3:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
We should add the rest of the White House Iraq Group (WHIG) to the list. They organized the con job marketing campaign to sell the American people the Iraq war. I remember Mary Matalin and Frank Card as two members of WHIG who aren't on your list.
GO BULLWINKLE!!
April 12, 2008 8:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
Congress is equally responsible for the mess. They had the opportunity to put this on the table in 2006 but under Pelosi and Reid they dropped the ball. The public is entitled to see what crimes were done under this administration and to demand a level of accountability from these lawbreakers. Instead they will all leave office unscathed and hit the lecture circuits, demanding and receiving enormous fees of how they got away with it. Simply criminal on all counts.
April 12, 2008 11:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
Impeachment won't happen now. They can't even pass any legislation in Washington because even though the American people are finally weary of Bush administration crimes, the Republican lawmakers (not to mention too many Democrats) wouldn't dare try to actually seek justice. After this next election, Democrats should finally have the tools to put Cheney, Bush and the like behind bars. If they were to try now, we could count on more Republican victories in November. I can just picture what the republicans would respond with if an impeachment movement were to begin (it would use familiar terms such as al-Queda, 9/11 and possibly something about victory for islamic extremists). Just what we need.
April 12, 2008 6:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
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