Excellent piece by a guy who knows what it takes to turn red states purple or even blue. Read it.
What David failed to mention and is the bigger story is that the magnets in question are not manufactured by any US Company. There is the shame that is the current state of Manufacturing in the US. Trying to throw this on Sen. Clinton is a red-herring at best.
Let me summarize: Clinton is directly referencing this factory in her advertisements and events as an example of how bad globalization and trade deals are. Bill Clinton directly authorized this trade deal.
Whatever your feelings about global trade, this is pure hypocrisy. I suppose it could be that, as Bill alluded to, she cannot actually remember as far back as the 90's cause that is, like, totally ancient history but intentionally trying to put this past the electorate is an appalling example of how little she privately thinks of the intellect of her audience.
Or maybe this is one of the cases where Clinton "privately strongly disagreed" with the Clinton administration "all along" that she forgot to tell us about?
Sorry, your not being logical.
Could you give me more detail about your thoughts on this particular story?
I'd like to learn more about it.
Posted it above....
Your words would carry more weight if you were able to make any specific refutations instead of this rather sad effort to appear aloof.
That, and if they reflected the reality. The logic of this is painfully obvious. So obvious, in fact, that even if voters really were as stupid as Clinton seems to think they are, they would still get it.
Clinton criticizes closing of factory clinton closed
Funny headline. Great article.
PP, that's not quite the headline. But, even if it was, the headline itself - and the article - are misleading.
Noone has disputed the accounts (it was/is a committee that acts outside our public eye because of the nature of its investigations) that the approval required that the magnet production and technology remain in the US. Nor has anyone disputed that it was in 2003 that the Bush Administration's review - in response to Sen. Bayh's requests - let the remaining plant in Indiana actually be closed. (Appears to me that the Chinese waited until there was a more pliant Administration.)
One thing you should always remember about David Sirota is demonstrated in his first 6 words:
In my upcoming book, The Uprising
He is riding the current wave of Hillary hate/Obama love to shamelessly promote himself. From what I've seen of his writing, when the tide shifts, so will he. I am impressed with his self-promotional talents. Not so much with his analytical or journalistic skills.
Right, because book authors are...what exactly?
What are....Book Writers...Alex....Or was that a trick question?
You're right, CVille Dem, I'm not being clear.
I researched David Sirota the last time one of his articles (about what he called "The Race Chasm," and comes with a nifty graph) was making the rounds, and all I could find out about him was self-generated self-promotion hype. Normally, you can find some critical pieces on the web about any (living) writer's work, no matter how obscure they might be. In Sirota's case, just about all of the copy about him on the web is generated by him. That makes me immediately wary of anything he has to say (because he has not been challenged or reviewed by anyone yet). I spent some time (too much time) analyzing his last article about Hillary Clinton (see first link and comments throughout), and I found his article to be extremely biased to the point of grossly inaccurate (the commenters in the second link I posted seemed to find his Hillary-is-a-racist theory to be quite flawed too).
To be fair, I haven't had time to analyze this new piece yet, but I'd start by comparing it with the McClatchy piece that Larry Geater referenced. If I found any factual discrepancies between the two, I'd go with McClatchy. I'd also ignore any of his "editorializing." When I read Sirota's first sentence and saw that he is promoting his book before all else, I stopped reading.
I'm not saying anything other than sharing a cautionary approach about him. Even though he claims to be a "progressive," he's a sloppy thinker and an inflammatory writer with a huge chip on his shoulder. But Sirota does have persuasive skills: he convinced Josh Marshall to let him post his Race Chasm sales job at TPM.
Let us not forget that McClatchy is the one news organization that got it right about Iraq before the invasion. They have the Highest credibility.
Sirota has made me a fan with his past few columns. Good to see honest journalism getting some play.
You're not a very critical reader if you are a "fan" of Sirota's. He's a very dishonest writer, in fact.
If you're going to make accusations like that, at least provide some proof. This is the only piece I've read by Sirota and it seems to be on the money but if you can prove that he's lying in this column or in a previous column, please do so. There's no need to attack someone else's reading skills.
I didn't mean my comment as an attack, actually. By "not a very critical reader" I meant someone who reads without skepticism, which is the way most people read journalists/pundits/op-ed columnists (iow, they read noncritically). Please see an elaboration of my thoughts about David Sirota above.
Dear ReadytoBlowaGasket:
#1 -- You haven't provided any facts to undermine Sirota. You've said that you distrust him because there aren't a lot of reviews, but at the same time you've acknowledged that Josh seems to respect him. Which would appear to be a review.
#2 -- The story is also written up in McClasky. So Sirota's bona fides are beside the point.
In short, I'd say your efforts to kill the messenger are coming up short. Perhaps you could comment on the message. Is this, or is it not, a hypocritical argument by the Clinton campaign?
If you had read me more carefully, Alex39, you would have seen my efforts are not to "kill the messenger" (David Sirota). If I'd wanted to do that, believe me, I would have done so unequivocally.
But forget about Sirota for a moment. The McClatchy writer, Steven Thomma, spends 3 paragraphs setting up his article with a description of Clinton's stump story followed by conjecture: That the stump story wins votes.
It’s just the kind of talk that’s helping her win support from working-class Democrats
There is absolutely no proof that Clinton wins working-class votes with such stories. Working-class voters may vote for Clinton for so many other reasons it's ridiculous. Therefore, Strike One for Steven Thomma. No cause-effect relationship has been established.
The fourth paragraph "debunks" the "story": George Soros and Bill Clinton (not George Bush) are to blame for job losses in Indiana created by "selling" an unnamed company to the Chinese. Gotcha, Hillary! Big Strike Two for Steven Thomma (because this is not journalism; we don't even know what the story is that Got Hillary).
The fifth paragraph begins: In response, the Clinton campaign. . . Huh? We still don't know what the hell is going on: We don't know what the Clinton campaign is responding to. Strike Three, you're out, Steven Thomma. Why? Because besides being unclear, this article is not objective. It's manipulating us, the readers.
Why am I counting paragraphs? To try to show how to read critically. It's not the only way, but it's one way to do it.
Because if after 5 paragraphs you don't know what is happening in a "news" story (because you haven't yet been told any of the facts), you can't evaluate the issues! As a reader, you are being manipulated emotionally to respond in a particular way.
The rest of the story is a garbled mess. Paragraphs 6-10 inform me that Bill Clinton is to blame, not George Bush. The trick in these paragraphs is that this charge against Bill Clinton appears to be factual because local people are being quoted. But so what? Quotes are not necessarily factual. The red flag in this section is this quote: She (Hillary) tried to use us for propaganda. This is said by an Obama supporter, btw. But you'd have to be a pretty sharp and sober reader to notice this detail about the person quoted.
I have no idea how to argue in favor of or against Clinton's stump speech because I can't sort out the relevant details. However, it doesn't matter, because the McClatchy writer doesn't want me to sort it out: He has manipulated my response by withholding facts while leading me to conclude that Hillary Clinton is trying to dupe the voters of Indiana.
Am I going to read David Sirota's version now? Fuck no! From my own previous research on Sirota (read the links I provided above), I already know Sirota's a lying, self-serving hack with no journalistic credentials. (There, I said clearly what I think of Sirota. He sucks.)
Something stinks about this story, and it's not because Bill, Hillary, and George Soros are lying scumbags and George Bush is innocent. I don't know why McClatchy published such poorly written piece in the first place. Maybe Steven Thomma is a friend of David Sirota's? Anything's possible.
The point is, whether you take me seriously or not, you should always read critically for your own sake.
P.S. Even luminaries like Josh Marshall can get duped once in a while, especially if he's too busy to fact-check every last thing that comes across his desk. Josh is only human, after all.
P.S. I think your avatar is awesome, Spade.
Thanks. You should get one too.
I know. I've been indecisive about choosing one.
You're upset that he said something critical of your girl Swillary and now you're grasping at straws for something that discredits him. So far all you have offered up is opinion.
The previous columns I was mentioning were in regard to union busting in Colorado and Colombia- I guess those are some more issues you don't like as a Shillary troll.
You're right: I'm a troll.
Louisville:
You wrote:
What David failed to mention and is the bigger story is that the magnets in question are not manufactured by any US Company. There is the shame that is the current state of Manufacturing in the US. Trying to throw this on Sen. Clinton is a red-herring at best.
The McClatchy article does mention that the magnets are not manufactured by any US company, and it says that there were more than one such company in 1995. Clinton did, however, contribute significantly to "the shame that is the current state of Manufacturing [sic] in the US."
They uncritically opened the doors to globalization, sometimes winning but too often losing, hurting us. I don't think that they were in league with corporations as much as they had no way to contend with them, whereas Obama does. Especially Hillary was often guilt of polarizing even moderates; she couldn't recognize a potential collaboration and capitalize on it if it was handed to her on a silver platter. She's too often a vicious person when reasonable people oppose her.
Most important, as one of the comments above states, her judgment is terrible. She and her husband trusted the Chinese government in this deal. What historical basis was there for trusting a violent, deceptive dictatorship? Worse yet, in the same vein, she trusted George Bush, a man widely considered a psychopathic liar beginning during his Air Force service, at Harvard, in his financial dealings, and as governor. Then, for several years, she denied that she had made a mistake in voting to give him the power to go to war against Iraq. In the case at issue in the post and throughout her career, she's made intensely regrettable choices.
ARGH!
AVAST YE MATES! LET'S CORPORATE RAID LIKE IN THE 1980S AND TAKE THE WENCH HILLARY AS PART OF OUR BOOTY!
RAID CORPORATIONS ACROSS THE SEVEN SEAS! MERGE! ACQUIRE! PILLAGE THAT VILLAGE!
ARGH!
I have nothing substantive to add to this conversation. I'm just blown away by your, um, argument.
Your call to plunder reminds me of The Crimson Permanent Assurance, which just makes me laugh even harder. Oh, you Corporate Raiders. Will you never cease with your Hillary Booty calls?
Comments (30)
Excellent piece by a guy who knows what it takes to turn red states purple or even blue. Read it.
April 30, 2008 1:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
What David failed to mention and is the bigger story is that the magnets in question are not manufactured by any US Company. There is the shame that is the current state of Manufacturing in the US. Trying to throw this on Sen. Clinton is a red-herring at best.
April 30, 2008 2:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Let me summarize: Clinton is directly referencing this factory in her advertisements and events as an example of how bad globalization and trade deals are. Bill Clinton directly authorized this trade deal.
Whatever your feelings about global trade, this is pure hypocrisy. I suppose it could be that, as Bill alluded to, she cannot actually remember as far back as the 90's cause that is, like, totally ancient history but intentionally trying to put this past the electorate is an appalling example of how little she privately thinks of the intellect of her audience.
Or maybe this is one of the cases where Clinton "privately strongly disagreed" with the Clinton administration "all along" that she forgot to tell us about?
April 30, 2008 2:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry, your not being logical.
April 30, 2008 2:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Could you give me more detail about your thoughts on this particular story?
I'd like to learn more about it.
April 30, 2008 2:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Posted it above....
April 30, 2008 3:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Your words would carry more weight if you were able to make any specific refutations instead of this rather sad effort to appear aloof.
That, and if they reflected the reality. The logic of this is painfully obvious. So obvious, in fact, that even if voters really were as stupid as Clinton seems to think they are, they would still get it.
April 30, 2008 6:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
Clinton criticizes closing of factory clinton closed
Funny headline. Great article.
April 30, 2008 2:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
PP, that's not quite the headline. But, even if it was, the headline itself - and the article - are misleading.
Noone has disputed the accounts (it was/is a committee that acts outside our public eye because of the nature of its investigations) that the approval required that the magnet production and technology remain in the US. Nor has anyone disputed that it was in 2003 that the Bush Administration's review - in response to Sen. Bayh's requests - let the remaining plant in Indiana actually be closed. (Appears to me that the Chinese waited until there was a more pliant Administration.)
April 30, 2008 2:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
One thing you should always remember about David Sirota is demonstrated in his first 6 words:
He is riding the current wave of Hillary hate/Obama love to shamelessly promote himself. From what I've seen of his writing, when the tide shifts, so will he. I am impressed with his self-promotional talents. Not so much with his analytical or journalistic skills.
April 30, 2008 2:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Right, because book authors are...what exactly?
April 30, 2008 3:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
What are....Book Writers...Alex....Or was that a trick question?
April 30, 2008 3:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
You're right, CVille Dem, I'm not being clear.
I researched David Sirota the last time one of his articles (about what he called "The Race Chasm," and comes with a nifty graph) was making the rounds, and all I could find out about him was self-generated self-promotion hype. Normally, you can find some critical pieces on the web about any (living) writer's work, no matter how obscure they might be. In Sirota's case, just about all of the copy about him on the web is generated by him. That makes me immediately wary of anything he has to say (because he has not been challenged or reviewed by anyone yet). I spent some time (too much time) analyzing his last article about Hillary Clinton (see first link and comments throughout), and I found his article to be extremely biased to the point of grossly inaccurate (the commenters in the second link I posted seemed to find his Hillary-is-a-racist theory to be quite flawed too).
To be fair, I haven't had time to analyze this new piece yet, but I'd start by comparing it with the McClatchy piece that Larry Geater referenced. If I found any factual discrepancies between the two, I'd go with McClatchy. I'd also ignore any of his "editorializing." When I read Sirota's first sentence and saw that he is promoting his book before all else, I stopped reading.
I'm not saying anything other than sharing a cautionary approach about him. Even though he claims to be a "progressive," he's a sloppy thinker and an inflammatory writer with a huge chip on his shoulder. But Sirota does have persuasive skills: he convinced Josh Marshall to let him post his Race Chasm sales job at TPM.
May 1, 2008 12:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
This story is also written up on McClatchy.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/election2008/story/35337.html
April 30, 2008 2:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Let us not forget that McClatchy is the one news organization that got it right about Iraq before the invasion. They have the Highest credibility.
April 30, 2008 3:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sirota has made me a fan with his past few columns. Good to see honest journalism getting some play.
May 1, 2008 12:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
You're not a very critical reader if you are a "fan" of Sirota's. He's a very dishonest writer, in fact.
May 1, 2008 12:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
If you're going to make accusations like that, at least provide some proof. This is the only piece I've read by Sirota and it seems to be on the money but if you can prove that he's lying in this column or in a previous column, please do so. There's no need to attack someone else's reading skills.
May 1, 2008 1:11 AM | Reply | Permalink
I didn't mean my comment as an attack, actually. By "not a very critical reader" I meant someone who reads without skepticism, which is the way most people read journalists/pundits/op-ed columnists (iow, they read noncritically). Please see an elaboration of my thoughts about David Sirota above.
May 1, 2008 2:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
Dear ReadytoBlowaGasket:
#1 -- You haven't provided any facts to undermine Sirota. You've said that you distrust him because there aren't a lot of reviews, but at the same time you've acknowledged that Josh seems to respect him. Which would appear to be a review.
#2 -- The story is also written up in McClasky. So Sirota's bona fides are beside the point.
In short, I'd say your efforts to kill the messenger are coming up short. Perhaps you could comment on the message. Is this, or is it not, a hypocritical argument by the Clinton campaign?
May 1, 2008 7:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
If you had read me more carefully, Alex39, you would have seen my efforts are not to "kill the messenger" (David Sirota). If I'd wanted to do that, believe me, I would have done so unequivocally.
But forget about Sirota for a moment. The McClatchy writer, Steven Thomma, spends 3 paragraphs setting up his article with a description of Clinton's stump story followed by conjecture: That the stump story wins votes.
There is absolutely no proof that Clinton wins working-class votes with such stories. Working-class voters may vote for Clinton for so many other reasons it's ridiculous. Therefore, Strike One for Steven Thomma. No cause-effect relationship has been established.
The fourth paragraph "debunks" the "story": George Soros and Bill Clinton (not George Bush) are to blame for job losses in Indiana created by "selling" an unnamed company to the Chinese. Gotcha, Hillary! Big Strike Two for Steven Thomma (because this is not journalism; we don't even know what the story is that Got Hillary).
The fifth paragraph begins: In response, the Clinton campaign. . . Huh? We still don't know what the hell is going on: We don't know what the Clinton campaign is responding to. Strike Three, you're out, Steven Thomma. Why? Because besides being unclear, this article is not objective. It's manipulating us, the readers.
Why am I counting paragraphs? To try to show how to read critically. It's not the only way, but it's one way to do it.
Because if after 5 paragraphs you don't know what is happening in a "news" story (because you haven't yet been told any of the facts), you can't evaluate the issues! As a reader, you are being manipulated emotionally to respond in a particular way.
The rest of the story is a garbled mess. Paragraphs 6-10 inform me that Bill Clinton is to blame, not George Bush. The trick in these paragraphs is that this charge against Bill Clinton appears to be factual because local people are being quoted. But so what? Quotes are not necessarily factual. The red flag in this section is this quote: She (Hillary) tried to use us for propaganda. This is said by an Obama supporter, btw. But you'd have to be a pretty sharp and sober reader to notice this detail about the person quoted.
I have no idea how to argue in favor of or against Clinton's stump speech because I can't sort out the relevant details. However, it doesn't matter, because the McClatchy writer doesn't want me to sort it out: He has manipulated my response by withholding facts while leading me to conclude that Hillary Clinton is trying to dupe the voters of Indiana.
Am I going to read David Sirota's version now? Fuck no! From my own previous research on Sirota (read the links I provided above), I already know Sirota's a lying, self-serving hack with no journalistic credentials. (There, I said clearly what I think of Sirota. He sucks.)
Something stinks about this story, and it's not because Bill, Hillary, and George Soros are lying scumbags and George Bush is innocent. I don't know why McClatchy published such poorly written piece in the first place. Maybe Steven Thomma is a friend of David Sirota's? Anything's possible.
The point is, whether you take me seriously or not, you should always read critically for your own sake.
P.S. Even luminaries like Josh Marshall can get duped once in a while, especially if he's too busy to fact-check every last thing that comes across his desk. Josh is only human, after all.
May 1, 2008 1:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
P.S. I think your avatar is awesome, Spade.
May 1, 2008 2:41 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks. You should get one too.
May 1, 2008 10:10 AM | Reply | Permalink
I know. I've been indecisive about choosing one.
May 1, 2008 1:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
You're upset that he said something critical of your girl Swillary and now you're grasping at straws for something that discredits him. So far all you have offered up is opinion.
The previous columns I was mentioning were in regard to union busting in Colorado and Colombia- I guess those are some more issues you don't like as a Shillary troll.
May 1, 2008 11:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
You're right: I'm a troll.
May 1, 2008 1:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Louisville:
You wrote:
What David failed to mention and is the bigger story is that the magnets in question are not manufactured by any US Company. There is the shame that is the current state of Manufacturing in the US. Trying to throw this on Sen. Clinton is a red-herring at best.
The McClatchy article does mention that the magnets are not manufactured by any US company, and it says that there were more than one such company in 1995. Clinton did, however, contribute significantly to "the shame that is the current state of Manufacturing [sic] in the US."
They uncritically opened the doors to globalization, sometimes winning but too often losing, hurting us. I don't think that they were in league with corporations as much as they had no way to contend with them, whereas Obama does. Especially Hillary was often guilt of polarizing even moderates; she couldn't recognize a potential collaboration and capitalize on it if it was handed to her on a silver platter. She's too often a vicious person when reasonable people oppose her.
Most important, as one of the comments above states, her judgment is terrible. She and her husband trusted the Chinese government in this deal. What historical basis was there for trusting a violent, deceptive dictatorship? Worse yet, in the same vein, she trusted George Bush, a man widely considered a psychopathic liar beginning during his Air Force service, at Harvard, in his financial dealings, and as governor. Then, for several years, she denied that she had made a mistake in voting to give him the power to go to war against Iraq. In the case at issue in the post and throughout her career, she's made intensely regrettable choices.
May 1, 2008 1:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
ARGH!
AVAST YE MATES! LET'S CORPORATE RAID LIKE IN THE 1980S AND TAKE THE WENCH HILLARY AS PART OF OUR BOOTY!
RAID CORPORATIONS ACROSS THE SEVEN SEAS! MERGE! ACQUIRE! PILLAGE THAT VILLAGE!
ARGH!
May 1, 2008 2:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
I have nothing substantive to add to this conversation. I'm just blown away by your, um, argument.
Your call to plunder reminds me of The Crimson Permanent Assurance, which just makes me laugh even harder. Oh, you Corporate Raiders. Will you never cease with your Hillary Booty calls?
May 1, 2008 3:24 AM | Reply | Permalink
That calls for a link (2 actually):
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ecFBcpY9NHI
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lNlYBNTCBG8
May 1, 2008 9:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
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