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Friendly fire in the class war

A few penséss that have come to mind as a result of the exchanges of the last few days:



1) When did "limosine liberals" become an epithet on the tongues of democrats?  I can understand why a republican
like Spiro Agnew might use this sort of language, but what is this sort
of rhetoric meant to achieve in the mouth of a democrat?



2) How is Clinton (or her supporters like Terry McAuliffe or Joe
Wilson) any less a "limosine liberal" than Obama or (his supporters
like Ted Kennedy or John Kerry)?



3) When did the Teamsters, the Boilermakers, the Service Employees, the
Culinary Workers and the Food and Commercial Workers become something
other than salt-of-the-earth blue collar types?  I can tell you
that I have played bagpipe gigs at Teamster meetings and at Yacht
clubs, and the two fora are not especially similar to each other.



4) If Clinton really does represent "the common man" while Obama stands only for "the liberal elite," then why is Clinton the one parrotting McCain right now?  Is McCain
also the defender of the common man?  In a similar vein, why are
the republicans training so much fire on Sen Obama but ignoring Sen
Clinton entirely?  Are we seriously to understand that the
Republican Party is become the party of the proletariat?


Comments (91)

More importantly, when did you come to the conclusion that a kilted, bagpipe-playing picture of yourself is an appropriate avatar?

May I also humbly suggest that you not juxtapose said avatar against a phrase like "a few penséss that have come to mind", exposing careless readers such as myself to rather unfortunate mental images.

Did I type "penséss"? Honestly, there should be an edit function on these blog posts. Suffice it to say, I meant "pensées," not "penséss."

Yeah, I think you're missing the point there. (Presumably, this is deliberate.)

Quite deliberate, yes.

Why am I suddenly craving mint chocolate chip ice cream?

Omigod. I think I've developed a case of protanopia. Thigns that were vermillion now look . . . kind of minty.

Bring back the terra cotta, dark-peach, salmon, vermilion, or whatever. That bilious green is migraine-inducing.

Blue I can handle, I guess.

And though it's off-thread but because I know that you're obsessed with Indiana and all things poll-related, what is the deal with the polls there? Are the pollsters high, or do large numbers of Indianians suffer from multiple personality disorders?

Oh shoot, don't ask me to explain the polls. I was predicting that Obama would win IN back when the polls first showed Clinton ahead, so I am not going to change my mind just because they showed him ahead for a while and now show him behind again. Missouri polls showed Clinton ahead by a mile right up until the Feb 4, but we all know how things actually turned out on Feb 5. Indiana will go for our guy.

Dude,
Lets play some tunes sometime.

Sorry I'm not more articulate right now. Music's claimed a much bigger chunk of my brain than politics has lately.

Language has also been shoved out of my skull, obviously.

Another well-reasoned, excellent post, Greg. Isn't all this nonsense silly? To somehow tar a man who was raised by a single mother and spent his adult life organizing on the south side of Chicago an "elite" or a "limousine liberal" is just absurd on its face. If anyone is an elite is is Mrs. Clinton. I don't think this "salt of the earth", "common man" schtick of hers is working with many people - at least, I hope it isn't. It's patently false, disingenuous and ridiculous. To me, it just illustrates how far to the right Clinton is willing to go, how far she is willing to compromise her principles, in order to win this thing.


2) How is Clinton (or her supporters like Terry McAuliffe or Joe
Wilson) any less a "limosine liberal" than Obama or (his supporters
like Ted Kennedy or John Kerry)?

In all fairness, the Clintons and the DLC have thrown liberals under the bus so often that they can only claim the "limousine" part of the title.

OT: The bagpipe looks Galician but the kilt doesn't. I'm confused.

I can only assume that it is the poor resolution quality of the photo. The kilt is a military campaign kilt in the Royal Stuart tartan. The pipes are of the great-highland variety (they say made in Scotland, but it is hard to trust that; 90% of Pakistani pipes say the same thing).

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Greg, isn't that a Stewart tartan rather than Stuart....there is a difference.

You are correct. It is a Royal Stewart tartan, not Stuart. My mistake.

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I saved you from the wrath of the Scots....greg. You realize you owe me one.

Hey Greg, another off-thread comment. Any thought about hosting friends for the June 14th TPMaholics fundraiser? Are you on my.barackobama.com?

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/04/tpmcentered-obama-fundraiser-w.php

Carol, Slouch, Ben, same question to you. (I'm not sure whether everyone saw the post, so we've been taking recruitment to people we know in the threads.)

It wouldn't have to be a big soiree. Even a few guests can make a house party.

Sorry AdAbsurdum, didn't mean to leave you out. Didn't see your post.

An élite soirée of pensées. No Crown Royal served.

You may serve (and wear) whatever you prefer. It's your party.

Crap. I posted the wrong link. This is the one that I meant to post:

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/04/tpmaholics-election-fundraiser.php

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G, you still glossin your own posts? You really really have no shame.

This is different. Not looking for recs this time. Organizing. If the primary is over by then, I hope that you'll thinking about participating.

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Sorry, unless you can confirm that Jada will be there.....I will have to decline.

Can't confirm. Scofflaw's doing an LA party, so I would check with her.

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DOH!

You do know who she supports, don't you?

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Love is blind Ben.

And sometimes so is politics! Harr-de-harr!

Sure. Mrs DeLassus and I can play host to one.

Most excellent. Very glad to have to you and the missus, kilt and all. Are you on my.barackobama.com? I couldn't find you. If you friend me at http://my.barackobama.com/page/dashboard/public/gGnyqX I'll add you to the host list.

PS Anyone else is welcome to friend me too. I'm not discriminating.

Just wanted to second what Genghis is saying here about hosting a fundraiser. We'll set it up so it's super easy to do, and anyone who hosts can keep it something simple with just their friends or bring in more people -- whatever they're comfortable with. I can't remember what was said in the original thread, but we're talking about a sliding scale for donations, so if anyone wants to be involved but can't afford much, that's totally fine.

CaliforniaPaige, are you in/around LA? If so, you're invited, and I'm also trying to figure out who else might be here ... no shortage of real-life Obama supporters around here, but TPMers seem to be thin on the ground ...

She's in the bay area. Diet's the only one I know in LA, but I'll keep a look out for others.

Thanks, Scofflaw -- yep, I'm in San Francisco. I'm arranging a party up here ... which reminds me, any bay area folks lurking around here should contact me so you can be invited: http://my.barackobama.com/page/dashboard/public/CGgzs.

Likewise. If there are any SoCal types lurking around, contact me on mybo and I'll give you the details for the LA gathering ...

I would offer to host one but
a. I don't know where I will be living in June (anybody know of a great room for rent in New York?)
and
b. I assume there is already a New York host.
But I hope to be there!

Hope you can make it! -- and yes indeed, there's a New York party. Possibly two! If you haven't already, you should join the my.barackobama group, so you can make sure to get party info:
http://my.barackobama.com/page/group/TPM-aholicsSupportGroup

Friend me at my.barackobama.com. benjoya and I are planning a party in the city. I don't know of any available rooms at the moment but will let you know if I come across something.

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I'll submit that Liberals should sit on the sidelines and let us DLC types win an Election. Your ability to do that has been very spotty...in fact non existent in the history of the republic. Seen and not heard...is a good axiom.

BTW - nobody said the Teamsters weren't salt of the earth folks but when they decided to support Reagan back in the day....think that told most folks that they weren't democrats.


BTW, that's one of the best blog titles I've read this season.

Thanks. It came to me while I was biking to work this morning and I had to make sure to type it first thing in the morning before the grant-writing made my brain swim and forget it.

Greg: There is a reason why certain Dems have been called Republican Lite. It is clear that for all intents and purposes, Hillary is now running on a Republican platform. That's why Obama is a limousine liberal and she's not, even though if anything, the opposite is true. That's why she can say anything at all and won't be called out on it, because a Republican saying something outrageous is not news. That's why when she says that black is white, the media will breathlessly report it and the pundits will nod their fat heads and say that yes, black is indeed white and why had no one thought of that earlier.

You may not have noticed yet but you have moved to Absurdistan, or perhaps Absurdistan has moved to you while you weren't watching.

When I read such ridiculous statements as this: "It is clear that for all intents and purposes, Hillary is now running on a Republican platform." I know with absolute certainty that the poster knows nothing about Clinton or Obama's policy proposals - and in fact, knows very little except the shallow personality reporting.

And I read it all the time from Obama supporters. Honestly, you would have more credibility and make a better case if you bothered to even look at their policies, but then you would have to acknowledge that Obama is the more conservative candidate. Much better to repeat this lie again and again and again without ever checking the facts.

I am hard pressed to award the prize for being "more liberal" to either. Each is slightly to the left of the other on this issue but slightly to the right of the other on that issue. That said, I agree with you that policy-wise, they are both good democrats. It is really a shame that we have been reduced to the partisans of each despising the other candidate, because really they are both good, strong democratic candidates. It is a pity that only one can win.

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Forgot to mention before. Nice legs greg.

Yes, Clinton's policy proposals seem equally "liberal" to Obama's. But there is a reason to be suspicious of her liberal cred, and to find her Republicanish tactics worrisome. The fact that she's running on a "return of the 90's" platform is reason enough to worry. Bill Clinton ran as a progressive, and then veered right, right, right over the course of his administration. That Hillary seems so willing to adopt Rovian tactics in her campaigning does not bode well for her future governing behaviors. Given her own "centrist" (*cough*) record on the war or, say, flag-burning legislation, there's no reason to take her "liberal" policy proposals as anything but election year posturing.

Her support for McCain and McCainian positions is another reason to doubt her sincerity on this front.

Is that Absurdistani bagpipe music I'm hearing, or is it Hillary on O'Reilly?

Yes, the Clinton campaign's Republican-ish distain for liberals, whose latte-sipping, Prius-driving ways are ostensibly hostile to the political interests of working Americans. Whereas Republican tax cuts for the wealthy, with spending cuts for the rest of us, are supposed to be just fine for the common man.

You'd think, though, that suppressing the African-American vote would make a hell of a lot more sense for a Republican than for a Democrat. (Can ya see the steam coming out my ears after I read the WVWV vote-suppression story this morning?) What the hell is the Clinton campaign thinking? The Democratic party has a tragic tendency to shoot itself in the foot, but this is the first time I've seen a Democratic candidate do it on purpose.

Whoops. I do, actually, know that every sentence is supposed to have a verb in it. Oh, and I know how to spell "disdain", too.

What I don't know, apparently, is that I should proofread a post before clicking "send".

Spelling errors, grammar errors, forgetting to "proof-read"? How very un-elitist of you.

Blame it on the Crown Royal ;)

Not-- The Drink of The People(tm)?!

Quick, Scofflaw, have a sip of this Koolaid. You'll re-elitify in no time.

Whew! Feeling much better now. Think I'll go take my Prius for a spin. Thanks, Paige! :)

Zogby Today

With Nader in the polling



Obama  45- McCain 34, Barr 3, Nader 1

McCain 44 - Clinton 34, Barr 4, Nader 3

That's Clinton losing by 10 to McCain if she steals it from Obama

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Oh Maria

I'm for Obama, but . . . I've found that Zogby polling data is useful mainly as packing material, tissue paper, etc.

In defense of Zogby, they were better than most on PA. They beat out SUSA on that one. Zogby actually has a pretty decent track record over the course of the 2008 primary season. The issue with Zogby is that when they are off, they're usually *way* off. I don't think this is way off.

neck lady

here again?


did you shave yet?

green guy down there is a good bet for you

for a green card


lame, but you the point

There is no difference between a Stewart tartan and a Stuart tartan. The EW is the traditional spelling for the Royal House of Stewart, but Mary Queen of Scots started the practice of spelling it the French way, UA. It's interchangable, and the tartan is the same either way.

BYW - I'm still gettting the picture of your face. I'm dying to see you in a kilt! (not that there's anything wrong with your face).

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Your correct. Stand corrected...My apologies Greg.

Well, you learn something new every day. Thanks. :-)

Hmmm, what's under this kilt? Meheheh.

Penséss?

Watch out for that goat, Greg. He's always trying to nibble on something ...

KZ, if you close and open your browser and then refresh the page, you should see Greg's spectacular knees. But if that doesn't work, you can clear the cache on your browser. (If you don't know how to do that, google "how do I clear my cache" and the name of your browser.)

I'm just going to nibble on your shirt a bit...

Get the green action while you can. It's going blue tomorrow.

Nice screen name.

Bleah! It's not ripe yet.

The Persimmon shirt tasted better.

Meheheheh.

Genghis, I have a gift for you:

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/6407/genghismanicrv5.gif

And the less manic "slowride" edition:

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/6017/genghisslowrideer9.gif

I love it! This is even better than workerbees.

Ouch! My eyes!

Oh My God. It burnssssss us.


My eyes haven't hurt so much since Lou Dobbs's Tie. (depending on your browser, you have to put your cursor over the tie to see the tie-o-meter ratings) And now I've linked to Wikiality twice in like 10 minutes. I am officially worthless.

Watch those shirt nay-sayers try to be glib now!

Note to self: read the whole thread before replying.

KZ,
Your browser is probably caching something... you might trick it out by going directly to Greg's avatar URL: http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/avatars/GrzeszDeL_15.jpg

(If that doesn't grab the image it for you, try holding ctrl-shift while you reload the page.)

I don't know. There's no nice way to say this but I look at the politics of some of the people Hillary has been courting lately and I go, "Those are Democrats? Really?"

Careful Destor, you're become something of an Obamaniac. You might be coming down with Hillaria.

GREEN guy

where is mean depressive guy

i want him to fight neck lady who needs a shower and a shave

1. Actually, my teacher back in high school who was in charge of the Young Democrats used to use it jokingly.

Thanks CalPaige & Genghis - it worked and now I can see Greg in all his glory!

Ooh, a quiz!

1) Not sure. Can you give me an example of who you're talking about?

2) They're not.

3) This question is clearly rhetorical.

4) Clinton is parroting McCain because she's either pandering or because that's really where her politics is at. McCain is clearly not a defender of the "common man". The GOP has finally sighted Obama because it's almost certain that he'll be the nominee and they like getting the 2-on-1 head start. The GOP is not the party of the proletariat, they're the party of convincing the proletariat that they're the part of the proletariat.

Can you give me an example of who you're talkingabout?
This, for instance...

Is this some brand of snark that I'm not getting or did the post cut-off? I'm actually really curious as to who's said this. I know that pundits have been throwing it around, but I don't watch much television and I haven't heard a Democrat actually say "limousine liberal".

It was supposed to be a link, but evidently it did not work. I cannot remember the URL I had embedded in the link last night, so I am afraid that you will just have to take my word for it that several of our TPM fellows are deriding the Obama supporters as "limosine liberals."

Ah, okay. I didn't know if this was coming from party Democrats or the MSM or what have you. Thanks for the clarification.

Great! I finally get to see Greg's knees and then Genghis burns out my eyeballs.

For most of us, it's the other way round.

2) How is Clinton (or her supporters like Terry McAuliffe or Joe Wilson) any less a "limosine liberal" than Obama or (his supporters like Ted Kennedy or John Kerry)?

Or John Kenedy or FDR.

The two-party system in this country does not fit the real battle being fought. The real battle is a class battle. The poor and middle-class, who have less, battling the rich, who have more. This election is all about this class battle. Obama is the leading poor and middle-class candidate. He speaks logically, and is the closest thinker you will get to the average person. With Hillary Clinton America will get a greater defender of the rich than Obama. Clinton's pockets are full of big business and Wall Street. McCain, following in Bush's footsteps, would be the worst candidate keeping in mind the class battle. He wants to make the tax cuts for the super rich permenant. That's all I need to know to not vote for him.

During the Bush years this country has been hi-jacked and bankrupted by those in power (or at least they let it happen). The next president must reverse the 8 years of neglect the average middle-class citizen has endured. It is not that bad now, but wait until the extra money you have saved starts to dwindle because of rising energy, food, etc. prices. It will not happen overnight, but in six months or so the results will devastate. So, do not be fooled by the false two-party distraction that our media and government propagate!! It is all about class. The people with less money versus those with lots more money. And there are more people in this country in the later category.

God Bless the rich people! Because they are the ones to help us save $0.18 a gallon on gas!

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Musings but not assertions:

It appears to me that it would be impossible for Hillary to defeat John McCain because of how she configured her nomination campaign strategy.

She started her campaign with the assumption that the liberal wing of the party was captive to her, and that she did not have to cater to it in order to gain the nomination. That freed her up to run a right of center primary season effort. She is still doing so, with her Shot and a Beer, and her Duck shooting, and Sniper defying pandering.

Hillary did not foresee the rise of Senator Obama, and especially his huge support among progressives. She had calculated that he would draw strong support from the African American community, as did Rev. Jackson, but she could afford to ignore that, since she could count on them to support her in the general election.

Then Iowa changed everything. Senator Obama won in a state with scarcely any African American voters.
Hillay had lost a large portion of progressive white voters to Senator Obama.

Hillary had painted herself into a corner. She had to rely on right of center voters to bail her out. She can not move back to the left during the remainder of the nomination campaign.

That means, should Hillary get the nomination, she does not have either the African American or the progressive base of the party safely locked up which would allow her to run as a centrist during the general election.

She would have to cater to progressives, in general, and the African American community in order to try and win back their support. That would leave her unable to run in the middle, and that would cost her the support of most Independents, and would make her easy picking for the Republicans to paint as being out of the mainstream.

In a Nutshell:

What Hillary did, was try to run her general election campaign during the primary season, instead of courting the progressive base of the party, and then running as a moderate in the general campaign. That fatal mistake has made her completely unelectable in November.
If she tried to continue to run to the right of center, the progressive base will stayed alienated from her, but if she moves back to the left, McCain would be able to run as a centrist, and Hillary would get massacred.

Just my musing on where I think Hillary made a fatal mistake at the outset, which reflects very poorly on her leadership talent level.

What do you folks think about my analysis of the situation?

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