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Exchange With My Good Florida Clinton-Supporting Friend on What Last Night Means

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My good Clinton-supporting Florida friend wrote me this morning that it's "time to rethink all this":

"Clinton has now won NH, NJ, NY, CA, PA, OH, TX , MA, FL, MI, MD - all  the states worth counting and the states we need to win in Nov. .  Now subtract from Obama"s lead all those southern states like SC  and others like KS where the democrats stand no chance in Nov and where do we stand?
 
Time to end the love affair - it just didn't work out - and encourage Obama to accept the second spot on the team.  Team America."

I replied as follows:


"Well, again, we may have to agree to disagree on this as fellow patriotic Americans who want what is best for our country. 
 
First, I no longer am optimistic about Hillary's ability to unify the party should she somehow win the nomination.  Her scorched earth tactics have so severely alienated so many within our party that the chances of that happening are increasingly unlikely as I see it.  I know her supporters say Obama has been no less hard on her.  But I just disagree with that.
 
Second, from the fact that Hillary has won the Democratic primary in these large states, most of which we are going to need to win in the general election, literally nothing follows about whether Obama or McCain wins those states if that is the matchup.  We are going to see a whole lot more polling data rolled out in the coming weeks on how Clinton-McCain, vs. Obama-McCain, plays out in many large and swing states. 
 
Because it is almost inconceivable, from a straight mathematical perspective, that Clinton could head into the convention with a pledged delegate lead over Obama, the Clinton campaign's chances to create any sort of real argument for her candidacy will rest largely on what that data shows--and how strong an argument they can make from it that they are the better choice for the nomination. 
 
That data, posing the direct matchups questions, at least poses the relevant question.  In advance of knowing what it says, though, I want to lay down a marker now by saying that the campaign against McCain has not even begun yet.  And the Republican campaign against either Clinton or Obama is in its early stages, although we can make educated guesses as to what the major themes are likely to be in either case. 
 
So while the polling data in these coming weeks probably should be (and in any case will be) looked at I am not sure what strong conclusions we are likely to be able to draw from it.  

I am taking it as a given that, *if* there were a compelling or strong case that Hillary would have the better chance to beat McCain than Obama, and particularly if the best available data and arguments suggest that she beats McCain and Obama loses to McCain, most ordinary citizen Democrats would want to know that, at least, and would consider it relevant.  (I would.)  I do *not*, however, assume that the most committed supporters of each candidate would be moved by any arguments made by the other side at this point, regardless of what the near-term polling data looks like.  And I don't think that is necessarily an irrational point of view, for the reasons I mentioned earlier, that we have barely seen the beginning of efforts by either side to define the opposition candidate."

Had Obama had a good last month I think my reply would have been simpler, along the following lines: Look, Hillary can't lead in pledged delegates going into the convention.  That's the process and those are the rules.  There is no way of nominating the candidate with fewer pledged delegates that does not lead to a deep split within the party, with untold devastating consequences likely to affect the chances for any sort of progressive change in our country for years to come.  So I hope you'll get behind Obama now.

In any case, if the best available information at this point that becomes available in the coming weeks suggests Hillary wins and Obama loses to McCain, I think under the circumstances I would still come down on nominating Obama assuming, as is almost a sure thing, he enters the convention with a pledged delegate lead, for two reasons. 

First, one doesn't need to be an Obama supporter to believe that the future of the Democratic party and the prospects for progressive change in our country over the next couple of decades can be influenced decisively by how many of the Obama supporters stay engaged after this election cycle.  It's a much younger demographic.  If we nominate the candidate with fewer pledged delegates I fear that much of that energy could well dissipate and the opportunity that lies in front of us could well be squandered for good.  And another opportunity like this may not come along any time soon. 

The argument on the other side on that is easy enough to see and state: the future is now, the differences between Clinton and McCain are large, and a McCain win could lead to a tipping point from which we might find it almost impossible to begin to right our country's course.  So if it looks as though Hillary, and only Hillary, can slay the McCain dragon, we should choose not to enslave ourselves to a nomination process whose first purpose should be to nominate the Democratic candidate with the best chance to win in the fall.

Second, and more fundamentally, though, I am highly skeptical about how strong a case could be made, even in theory, for nominating Clinton on electability grounds based on the direct matchup vs. McCain polls we will see in the large states in the coming weeks, because of where we are in the campaign cycle at this point.  

But I will listen to what both the Clinton and Obama campaigns have to say on that.


Comments (9)

Clinton's modest gains since super-Tuesday have been won by fear-mongering. The same tactic used by the Republicans would ensure her loss in the general election. If anyone doubts that Republicans can out-fearmonger Clinton, they haven't been paying attention. Obama has the winning strategy for the GE and for the future of the Democratic Party. We've seen him cut Clinton's lead in PA in half in a matter of weeks in a state that has her ideal demographics. The more time he has to bring his positive message to the public as the Party's nominee, the better for all of us.

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Thanks for your reply, wayitwas.

The Clinton campaign has been doing a good deal of fear-mongering. With an entirely legitimate issue of who we should want to trust as CIC, they are taking the approach that seems to have worked in the past for the Republicans. In chapter 1 of his book, The Assault on Reason, Al Gore writes about what he describes as a biologically hard-wired predisposition of humans to be governed more by fear than reason when both are present, supported by the more recent brain research.

I can, and do, lament this while understanding why political campaigns do this.

I also do not concede that the Republicans necessarily would do a better job of "fear-mongering" than the Clinton campaign would.

Obama wants to run a more optimistic and hopeful campaign which arguably assumes that enough of the voting public can overcome the human predispositions or tendencies Gore writes about which have been so shamelessly exploited by the Republicans over the years.

I am less sure than you are that Obama has the winning strategy for the GE. I sure hope he does.

In particular--and this may change if and when he wins the nomination and is actually running against McCain rather than Clinton--I feel he could do a much better job than he has so far of articulating and embracing what I think is a substantively dead-on and, with his silver tongue, also a politically promising (although as yet untested) approach to the economy at a thematic level.

My best suggestion for the substance for what I hope that appeal will be is written up and documented in Jacob Hacker's book aThe Great Risk Shift. I believe this should be required reading for Democrats and all others interested in part of what a constructive, coherent and broadly beneficial approach to economic globalization by our country might look like.

TPM Cafe's Jared Bernstein's All Together Now makes a similar, more philosophically-argued case with less of the backup data Hacker includes.

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Trying again on the link to info on the Hacker book and the ideas in it...

The Great Risk Shift

Thanks for the links. After a long period of no time to read, I have at least a temporary reprieve from other tasks now. Retry the Bernstein link as well - it doesn't go anywhere when I click it.

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Sorry...you can tell I have not fully gotten the hang of this...ok, here's another try:

Jared Bernstein's All Together Now

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Also, if you are interested in an excellent "big picture" view of the overarching challenges which human civilization faces and where we may be heading, I recommend Thomas Homer-Dixon's The Upside of Down

The subtitle--"Catastrophe, Creativity and the Renewal of Civilization" gives a bit more indication of what it's about.

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Arrrgh! It drives me CRAZY to see FL, MI and TX in Clinton's win column!

I think it's inaccurate to say Clinton won FL and MI. They broke the rules and, rightly, are out of the line-up. Besides, I don't think if MI got a do-over with Obama on the ticket that Clinton would win. She barely won against nobody.

And I thought Clinton DIDN'T win Texas. Wasn't AP's final count 94 delegates to Clinton and 99 for Obama? Last time I checked 99 was more than 94.

Me too. On the front page of ABC's web site, they show a 100K+ lead for Clinton in the popular vote, and only in the smallest and lightest of print do they note that the total includes FL+MI. We see the agenda behind their debate questions, pushing for the only Democratic candidate they think the Republicans can beat. If she were to get the nomination, which she will not, the networks would use the same tactics against her in the GE.

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Good points. Re Texas, Obama wound up with more delegates, although Clinton won the popular vote.

Likewise I have questioned the meaning of the Florida and Michigan results under the circumstances in which the vote took place.

I learned upon looking up the data that many more Michiganders voted in the Dem primary earlier this year than cast votes in the Michigan caucus in 2004, for whatever that is worth as an indicator of awareness and participation.

And the number of Florida Dems who cast ballots this year far exceeded the number who cast ballots in the Dem primary there four years ago, which could also be due in large part to the comparative timing of the primary during these years. The 2008 Florida primary, such as it was, was held at a time when the nomination was in far greater doubt than it was when the 2004 Florida primary was held.

I suppose Clinton supporters would cite the participation rates--plus the big media, semi-national nature of this and modern campaigns wherein FTF interaction with voters touches only a small fraction of the electorate in more populous states--in support of an argument that the votes in those states were meaningful and that awarding delegates on the basis of the vote that was held would be fair and equitable.

I don't agree with that argument and do not believe that these two states should be allowed to have their delegations seated at the convention based on the results of the vote as it was held. I really hope a way can be found to redo the vote in both states, so that both states can be represented at the convention, although the prospects for finding a way to do that look bleak right now. To my way of thinking there was no true "campaign" held in either state. And Obama's name wasn't even on the ballot in Michigan.

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