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Delegate Numbers: The View Today . . .
NBC's Tally of Pledged Delegates:
Obama = 1416, Clinton = 1252
Using the 3 most recent polls in each state, here are delegate projections for the 10 remaining contests, using Slate's delegate calculator with percentiles in parentheses, Obama first:
PA (45-55) . . . . 71 (O) - 87 (C)
Guam (none) . . . . 2 (O) - 2 (C)
IN (46-54) . . . . 33 (O) - 39 (C)
NC (57-43) . . . 66 (O) - 49 (C)
WV (33-67) . . . . 9 (O) - 19 (C)
KY (31-69) . . . .16 (O) - 35 (C)
OR (55-45) . . . .29 (O) - 23 (C)
PR (42-58) . . . . 42 (O) - 58 (C)
MT (39-61) . . . . .6 (O) - 10 (C)
SD (56-44) . . . . . 8 (O) - 7 (C)
Subtotals: 472 (Obama) - 509 (Clinton)
Projected Pledged Delegate Totals: 1679 (O) - 1551 (C)
Note: The analysis by Congressional Quarterly states that Hillary will not get anything close to the delegate numbers that Slate projects with a 55%/45% win because of the vagueries of how Pennsylvania allocates delegates on a proportional basis.
Note: If the Florida & Michigna delegations were seated as voted in January, that would give Clinton a net gain of 50 delegates, leaving Obama with a lead in pledged delegates of 78.
What do you think?








Comments (29)
I think that the delegate count may be correct, but the predictions are pretty idiotic. There is no way Hillary wins any of these contest by more then ten or 15 points, at most.
She hasn't won any contest by more than 20 points except for Arkansas, so the chances that she will win Kentucky by 38 points is just about the silliest thing I have heard today.
At the end of the day, though, none of these so-called "political experts" have been anywhere near the truth this entire campaign season, so I don't see these "predictions" as having any more weight than a call into the Psychic Hotline.
Note: Citing the mythical seating of delegates from flawed contests as a way to prove a point seems a little odd. Obama supporters could just as easily claim that if all the races were rerun, Barack's increased national presence would have put him over 2025 by now.
April 16, 2008 11:54 AM | Reply | Permalink
I suspect you're misreading the post. The point appears to be that even if Clinton performs improbably well in every remaining contest, she'll still lose by a healthy margin.
April 16, 2008 11:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
I think I missed the point as well, since I read a few of Bill's posts in the meantime. It just sounded odd to me, the way that note was worded at the end. If the point is, "She hasn't got a chance." then I totally agree.
April 16, 2008 12:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think it's over
Take your 1551 and add her 249 superdelegates counted at http://demconwatch.blogspot.com/2008/01/superdelegate-list.html.
She'd need 224 of the remaining 312 superdelegates to get nominated. That's a solid 70% of the folks who didn't back her when she was inevitable and haven't backed her after months of arm-twisting and won't back her when the pledged are clearly going in the other direction.
Thanks for the numbers.
April 16, 2008 11:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
She won't be stopped by a silly thing like Math! I predict she organizes a military coup.
April 16, 2008 12:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
She can't organize her way out of a paper bag.
Trust me, her demographic will have a hard time marching en masse. I'm her demographic (but horrified by her campaign), and all those arthritic hips aren't going to be able to march up the streets. And the bursitis in the elbows -- hard to hold a weapon.
She couldn't organize it anyway. Oh, I said that already. There's memory loss after menopause.....
April 16, 2008 12:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thank you, Flyonthe Wall, that's exactly the point. I didn't state it because I think that the numbers speak for themselves. The percentages & their accompanying delegate projections are not an attempt to predict. Rather, they're just a statement of what the latest polls say today. I bent over backwards to give Hillary every advantage. For example, for polls in which Hillary is ahead, I split the indecideds in the same proportions by which she is ahead in the polls themselves, but where the polls have Barack ahead, I split the undecideds 50/50.
So, even in Hillary's best case scenario - or Barack's worst case - she only picks up 37 delegates the rest of the way. Even for anyone who buys her argument that Florida & Michigan should count, she still can't get within 75 delegates of Barack. This leaves all of the debate about Florida & Michigan moot. Seated or not, they won't make a difference unless there is a drastic change in the outcomes. As Jason says, this is not likely to happen. And even these 37 delegates depend on blow out victories o 60% or close to it in Kentucky, West Virginia, Montana, & Puerto Rico as well as an unlikely favorable delegate distribution in PA. Tightening of the results in any of these states only further reduces her delegate pick ups.
Another interesting tidbit is that since March 4th, when the Clinton campaign claims to have broken Obama's momentum with victories in Ohio, Texas, & Rhode Island, Obama has actually picked up more delegates than she has (209 - 207).
April 16, 2008 12:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
Jason, I was just trying to be even handed in my presentation of the facts, so that I could see where the conversation would go.
April 16, 2008 12:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
I have been known to misunderstand things from time to time. As soon as I read a couple of your previous posts, however, I got what you were getting at.
April 16, 2008 12:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
It kind of makes you wonder why she bothers. We all have to make the decision to get out of bed every day & do something useful with our lives. What the heck is she trying to accomplish with her efforts. Is she deluded?
April 16, 2008 12:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Correction: I incorrectly listed the Puerto Rico delegate projections as 42(O) - 58 (C). Those are the voting percentages.
The actual PR delegate projections are: 23 (O) - 32 (C).
Sorry for the error.
April 16, 2008 12:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
What are the "Subtotals" you reference above? When I add the remaining contests using the corrected Puerto Rico numbers, I get Obama 263, Clinton 303. The 263 matches the difference between the NBC tally and the projected total for Obama, but the Clinton difference is 299.
Sorry if I sound like a stickler on this, but as we all know, every vote counts, so it's important that we count every vote.
To the committed Clintonite, this math merely underscores that Obama also can't win the nomination without automatic delegates. And if you firmly believe the GOP will beat Obama senseless this fall, you cling to the hope that the automatic delegates come to their senses and realize that only Hillary can win in November.
While I'll admit to having some fear about the effectiveness of race-baiting tactics against Obama in the general election, I also believe Clinton is quite vulnerable to GOP attacks, probably more so. More importantly, I don't believe the Democrats should choose their nominee based primarily on how they suspect he or she will survive against GOP attacks. That didn't work out too well in 2004 (although we'll never know how Howard Dean would have done against Bush).
As I see it, Hillary Clinton has failed to provide a strong, positive explanation for why she wants to be president. Obama stands for ending the war in Iraq, and for "change". McCain stands for staying the course in Iraq, and making the Bush tax cuts permanent. Listening to the Clinton campaign, you'd believe she should be president because Obama is too inexperienced and/or too likely to lose in November.
Kerry had a similar problem in 2004 of not offering a strong enough positive basis for his own campaign. His rationale was, effectively, "I'm more competent than Bush". That's a much weaker way to run.
April 16, 2008 1:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
Fosberry, I stand corrected.
The "subtotal" is Slate's subtotal & I forgot that they calculate their subtotal with all of the primaries beginning on March 4. So, I defer to your numbers. I haven't yet figured out how to edit a post here. If I can figure this out, I will change the numbers in my original post.
The bottom line numbers, however, remain the same. And the basic point remains the same. She has know chance of catching Obama in the remaining contests - & it isn't even close.
I completely agree with your assessment that she has never given voters a positive reason to vote for her & posted a blog to that effect a few weeks ago. Early if you wanted to reduce her campaign to a single word or phrase, it would have been "experience". But even that never told anyone what she wanted to do.
The Clinton argument that only she can win in November is completely flimsy. It seems to be based on the fact that she beat Obama in some traditional big state Democratic strongholds. However, this has nothing to do with whether Obama will also win these same states.
The fact is that as of today, Obama is making a stronger showing in general election polls vs McCain. Electoral-vote.com has an analysis that shows a closer race between Obama & McCain that Clinton vs McCain, based on state-by-state polls. Obama does lose some of the big Democratic states, but he wins others where Hillary stands no chance - including 9 or 10 states west of the Mississippi where Hillary wins only 5.
Hillary's problem in making this "electability" argument is the same one that you pointed to earlier. She doesn't give the super delegates any more of a positive reason to vote for her that she gives to the general electorate. Other than "I can win", she doesn't tell the super delegates why she is a better standard bearer for the party on the issues that Democrats really care about. And that's what party nominations are supposed to be all about: trying to find the candidates who can best take the party's causes before the American people & sell those ideas in November - regardless of what the polls say in April.
Unfortunately for Hillary, she reduces the argument to electability, which is ultimately an arument about numbers - & the numbers don't favor her.
April 16, 2008 2:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Most of you are probably aware of this site, but Andrew Tanenbaum's http://www.electoral-vote.com/ has recently switched to a map showing general election relative strength between Clinton and Obama. States where McCain beats both Clinton and Obama by 5% or more he colors red; states where Clinton and Obama both beat McCain by 5% or more he colors blue. The other states, where at least one of the races would be close, are colored brown, pink, or white, where brown represents Obama doing better against McCain than Clinton, pink represents Clinton doing better than Obama, and white showing they do the same. A solid color shows the stronger Democrat doing at least 5% better than the weaker one, while just an outline in color shows a smaller difference.
This map nicely illustrates the relative strengths of Obama and Clinton, focused on those states that "matter" for the general election, that is ones where at least one of the matchups is currently closer than 5%. As of today, among close states Hillary is stronger in four: Florida, Massachusetts, West Virginia, and New York. Obama is stronger in 17 other close states, including Texas, Michigan, and North Carolina.
Tanenbaum only uses polling data to determine who is ahead, or whether a state is close, and some of the polls seem unlikely this far out, most notably New York being in play no matter who the Democratic nominee is, or Texas not being solid red. This is, at best, a snapshot of the current landscape, not what is likely to hold for November. But it's hard to look at that map and still believe Hillary would be the stronger candidate.
April 16, 2008 3:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Note to self - read the whole post I'm replying to before I submit... Bill Marshall also noted
http://www.electoral-vote.com/, although I did provide a link. Make it two links!
April 16, 2008 3:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
Also of note at electoral-vote.com is a much better analysis of the whole "liberal/conservative" voting record for the senate.
We all know that the National Journal came out with its annual rankings in which Obama ranked as the most liberal senator. Tanenbaum's analysis shows Obama ranked at 42 with Clinton at 38.
Here's the link: http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2008/Senate/lib_senator_ratings-2007.html
April 16, 2008 4:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't see why the pledged delegate number matters much when most people think the popular vote is the actual democratic measure. From the ABC/Wapo poll:
"Those superdelegates are free to back any candidate, and many of them remain uncommitted. When asked how superdelegates should decide which candidate to support, nearly half of Democrats said they should follow the overall popular vote, while just one in eight said the number of delegates won in primaries and caucuses should be the deciding factor. Nearly four in 10 said superdelegates should choose the candidate they think is the best."
link
April 16, 2008 1:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
Corrected link
April 16, 2008 1:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
Another Reader, the argument to follow the "popular vote" is very calculated by the Clinton campaign. It is an attempt to marginalize the results in the caucus states. Not as many people vote in caucuses as vote in primaries, so an appeal to the popular vote suppresses Obama's success in caucus states, which had disprportionately smaller turnouts.
Whether states should use caucuses or not is an argument for another day. Some prefer caucuses because it allows party members to take a more in-depth look at the candidates via the discussions of the candidates & it allows party members to challenge each other's views in attempting to sell others on their opinions. The benefit of primaries is obviously that the results are based on greater voter participation.
Since the preferred method of selecting delegates is up to the states & not to the candidates or to the national committee, the attempt at suppression of caucus state results is an attempt at jury nullification.
The bottom line is that we don't select nominees or presidents by popular vote. Maybe we should, but it's too late for that discussion at this point in the process. A committee to revise the nominating process can be set up after the election. For now, we're stuck with what we have.
The argument to use the popular vote might have some validity in the "winner take all" Republican Party where McCain won many states with 70% of those participating voting against him. But the process of proportional allocation of delegates used in the Democratic nominating process is about as fair & as close to the will of the people as you can get. For a system that uses a combination of primaries & caucuses, the delegate count, which is based on proportionality, is a better better measure the people's votes in both caucus & primary states because it isn't tipped toward the larger turnout in primary states. It's just an attempt to disproportionately favor those primary states in the same way that they have argued that states with a history of voting Democratic should be given more weight than traditionally red states, thereby disenfranchising red state Democrats. Where is George Orwell when you need him?
The pros in the Clinton camp obviously know this, but it's just one more cynical ploy on their part to overturn the will of the people.
April 16, 2008 2:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
"The bottom line is that we don't select nominees or presidents by popular vote."
That's correct. We select our nominees through this crazed system involving pledged delegates and superdelegates. Both candidates need the support of superdelegates to secure the nomination. As Obama has argued for months, though the superdelegates are free to exercise independent judgment, they should follow the will of the people. There is just as much of a calculated effort from his campaign to push the delegate count as the measure of the will of the people as from the Clinton campaign to push the popular vote.
The people now seem to indicate that the will of the people can be determined through popular vote, not pledged delegate count. Too bad for Obama.
April 16, 2008 2:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Why is this too bad for Obama?
He's ahead in the popular vote & figures to remain so..
April 16, 2008 2:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
I believe Hillary will overcome him in the popular vote. Please read this for how.
April 16, 2008 2:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm terrible with these links .
April 16, 2008 2:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
Interesting link. It paints a rosy scenario for Clinton (winning Pennsylvania by 20 points now seems unduly optimistic), but it is an attempt to be plausible, albeit favorable to her. I still would be greatly surprised if Clinton manages to take the popular vote lead under any sane calculation (and, that Bill talked about her leading the popular vote "in the primary states" suggests she realizes that as well), but that scenario is, I suppose, possible.
It also would be the GOP's dream outcome: a split that justifies Clinton keeping her campaign going until the convention, on the basis that the delegate totals are a slim lead for Obama, but the popular vote is with her, so the superdelegates should decide. But not too early.
April 16, 2008 3:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
AnotherReader,
Due to the hybrid nature of delegate selection (primaries here, caucuses there, and both in Texas), while you can sum the "popular vote", doing so drastically underweights caucus states relative to primary states. Not only do fewer people tend to participate in lengthy caucuses than vote in primaries, for some caucus states we don't even have initial preference counts for all attendees, we just have district or state-wide delegate totals. Those states are invisible in any national "popular vote" count. Which suits Clinton just fine, as Obama in aggregate did much better than she did in caucus states.
Convention delegates in theory balance this out, because the state allotments are roughly proportional to their populations. So talking about the popular vote isn't really fair under the present system.
April 16, 2008 3:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
I would argue that it's not really "fair" to use pledged delegates to determine the will of the people. If you look at Texas, it shows that Clinton won more votes, but then Obama won the caucus which tends to disenfranchise the elderly and shift workers. I believe in one person, one vote. Clinton wins when you employ democratic standards.
More people showed up to vote for Clinton than Obama, yet Obama wins more delegates? That's not what I'd call "fair".
If these other states wanted fair and equal representation, they were free to hold primaries.
April 16, 2008 3:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
That's a reasonable objection prior to the beginning of the process. To argue otherwise now, however, de facto games the system irrespective of your intentions. The states were told they could select X delegates, and then they were given free rein to select them as each state saw fit. Some chose caucuses (perhaps for tradition, or cost reasons), others chose primaries, and Texas chose both.
Obama has won primaries also, often by quite wide margins. If I strongly supported Clinton, I might well make similar arguments, justifying the unfairness to caucus states by what I saw as the greater good of the better candidate and/or president. But after the DNC has set the ground rules, and all the campaigns agreed to them, you shouldn't change the scoring method in the middle of the game.
It will be interesting to see whether, after this cycle, there is serious interest in the DNC to tinker with the nomination process. Would more states opt for primaries instead of less-expensive caucuses, now that "popular vote" is now considered a meaningful metric?
April 16, 2008 3:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm not arguing that caucuses shouldn't count at all, I am arguing that their results should mean less to the superdelegates than the popular vote. Superdelegates are included in the system we have set up, so it is not gaming the system so much as playing within the written rules.
April 16, 2008 4:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
Another Reader, you really haven't made it clear why you think that the popular vote should be more important to the super delegates than should pledged delegates.
You claim that "the people seem to indicate that the will of the people can be determined through popular vote . . ." Yet, that is not what the poll said. 46% of the people said what you claim. But most people (54%) preferred something other than popular vote.
Then you say that caucuses should mean less to super delegates than popular vote. Why? What justification is there for disenfranchising state parties in caucus states? Democrats in those states have every right to choose the time honored caucus system to make their selections. No one ever told them that their votes would mean less if they held caucuses instead of primaries.
All of this will be moot when the contests are over on June 3. The article you linked is just Michael Barrone filling space with an exercising in "what could be". It doesn't really have any relevance to what the outcomes will be. I have seen no projections in which Hillary picks up 700,000 in the popular vote during the remaining primaries.
April 16, 2008 5:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
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