Reader Posts

« previous | TPM CAFÉ READER POSTS HOME | next »

Clinton challenges Obama to a debate without a moderator - Lincoln-Douglas style.!!

Very interesting.  I wonder how Obama will dance out of this one.  Like usual he has nothing to gain from the debate, however if he declines, he'll be painted as a coward.  However he'd be going in with a disadvantage in that Clinton is looking to cut him down, whereas he has to play nice. 

I think he'll have to do it though, and I'll definitely tune in. 


Comments (39)

I would actually enjoy watching that debate. They're both very intelligent people.

Link?

Here's my favorite part:

"Just the two of us, going for 90 minutes, asking and answering questions, we'll set whatever rules seem fair," Clinton said while campaigning in South Bend.

Here's what the idea of Hillary talking about "rules" brought to mind:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=2y87EaadjqM

The part about setting rules is toward the end of the clip. Hillary is Butch.


And I'd definitely enjoy seeing such a debate, but Obama would have little to gain by agreeing to it. As others point out, she's broke. Giving her some free air time doesn't make sense. But it would certainly be interesting to watch.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080426/ap_on_el_pr/democrats

Sorry, I just (wrongly) assume everybody uses Yahoo because I still do.

Thanks, very interesting!

It would be cool. But you know what would be cooler?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=leEsz9ci5XE

Well played, Hillary. Well played.

I'd decline it if I were him. Her desperation doesn't have a floor. She will attack him like a rabid, wounded feral dog.

In this format, however, such an attack would be very obvious and unseemly. She might do it anyway, but if she does—advantage Obama.

It could depend. She could try to mask it as seeing how he would react to a "republican argument." She is not going to play fair without a moderator. She is tough and gritty but she also plays dirty.

There is no point engaging in a debate you cannot win. It isn't that he cannot win on substance, it is that she will win because he cannot respond with the force necessary to avoid appearing weak. He needs to reunite the party, particularly Hillary's most faithful supporters, and pivot toward McCain. Having her slap him around for 90 minutes doesn't allow that to happen.

Surely he could anticipate such a move, however. This would be included in be my response:


Right now we're asking Democrats to decide who they think will better represent them in November. I don't think that letting Republicans shape the agenda will help advance that cause. Rather than follow their lead, I believe it is best that we be the leaders.

I'm sure he (and his staffers) could come up with something better, but I think I've gotten across how such an attack based on "what the Republicans might say" should be countered.

Point taken, but the question would be lingering out there to be answered and she will have scored toughness points. What about tha fact that he cannot use any force?

Additionally, she is broke. Why give her 90 mins of free airtime? Spend her into the ground and call it a day.

He doesn't have to accept any debate challenges from her at this point, not after what, 21 debates? 22? I've lost count! If there had been only a handful of debates by now, yes, maybe, but he can just ignore her on this issue.

avatar

25 debates. Good grief, what more is there to say?

25? Good grief! While we can note "what more is there to say?" there truly is more to say because of the lousy way all the other debates were run. However, I'll echo your statement -- there's nothing more to say except an emphatic "NO!" to more debates.

What about tha fact that he cannot use any force?

That is a bit of a liability. However, I believe the verbal judo is strong with Obama.

Why give her 90 mins of free airtime?

Because it's also 90 minutes of free airtime against McCain.

This could be true but I doubt she will let him pivot gracefully into matters of McCain. Overall, I think you make some good points but the fact that he cannot use force to respond to her is too steep a price to pay just to have her camp pipe down. It will simply feed into her scrappy fighter story and make him look like a limp noodle because he cannot smack her down on like TV.

OK, I saved the best argument for last:

Because I want to watch it. That's why. :)

If he uses any force, her women supporters will shriek, and he'll alienate still more of them. He'll be hamstrung by image issues while she'll be totally free, able to throw as much sand in his eyes as she feels like with no problems. It would make her supporters love her even more. Love that gal. She's a fighter. So no go on this one. It's a trap.

The "sand in his eyes" part made me giggle a bit.

Here is the letter sent (gleaned from Ben Smith (pah-tooie) over at Politico:

[blockquote]April 26, 2008

David Plouffe, Campaign Manager
Obama for America
P.O. Box 8102
Chicago, IL 60680

Dear David:

The attention, excitement and energy around this presidential election is unprecedented. The stakes could not be higher for our country and the American people. The economy is sliding into recession, our men and woman in the Armed Forces are fighting two wars abroad, and our country is reeling from the harsh legacy of the Bush-Cheney Administration. The American people are choosing a direction for their children and families. They have a right to hear from those who want to be their leaders. Our Democratic primaries reflect the keen interest of the American citizenry in this election. Our primaries have brought millions of new people into the political process and invigorated a national conversation about the best solutions to meet our challenges.

Senator Clinton believes deeply that political debates are a vital part of our democratic process. It is the American way to place our would-be leaders side by side to hear them articulate and defend their ideas; to challenge each other on their visions for the future; to answer the tough questions about their plans, their records and their judgments; and to celebrate their achievements.

Senator Obama has declined the invitation from CBS and the North Carolina Democratic Party to appear for a debate at North Carolina State University tomorrow evening. Senator Obama has apparently declined the invitation of the Indiana Debate Commission to appear for a debate in Indiana next week. Senator Obama has not responded to Senator Clinton’s challenge to debate in Oregon. Will there be no debates in other upcoming states? The American people, of course, deserve more. They deserve debates before casting their votes. They deserve debates just like the states who have participated in this invigorating process before them.

I understand that Senator Obama has raised the point that there have already been more than 20 debates this election cycle. However, only four of those have been between Senator Obama and Senator Clinton. We can all agree that many important issues have received scant attention during previous debates, including such important topics as education and the energy crisis.

This year marks the 150th anniversary of the famous Lincoln-Douglas debates, a series of public debates across Illinois where two candidates put their ideas, their visions, and their values before the American people. I have no doubt that Senator Obama, who hails from that great state, understands how valuable and vital these national conversations were to the heart of America. We can surely meet the standard our forbearers did. Our final two primary candidates to date have had three fewer debates than Lincoln and Douglas held in single state over 60 days in 1858.

And if we debate, Americans will come. Recent debates have attracted record numbers of viewers – more than 10 million for the last one. And a great number of voters in recent primaries have said that the debates in their states were important to their decision.

Senator Obama himself suggested the last debate in Philadelphia did not provide enough opportunity to talk about issues that “matter[] to the American people.” A Lincoln-Douglas style debate would certainly provide that opportunity. There would be no questions from the media. There would be equal time and equal opportunity to grapple with the important policy questions we are facing today. As Douglas put it, the two candidates would meet “for the purpose of discussing the leading political topics which now agitate the public mind.”

In the spirit of the Lincoln-Douglas debates, we make this proposal:

Senator Clinton and Senator Obama will participate in a 90-minute debate in an open public forum. Just the two of them -- no questioners, no panelists, no video clips. One candidate would speak for two minutes, then the other, alternating back and forth all the way through the debate. Their discussion – not any pre-set rules – would determine how long they spend on one subject before moving on to another. Such a debate would range across all of the challenges, large and small, we face as a nation or it could focus on the most significant issue we face today, -- the economy.

We can readily agree on a host, a place, a date, and a broadcaster or series of broadcasters.

Both of our candidates are making history. Let us continue to do so. Let’s debate.


Sincerely,
Maggie Williams

Campaign Manager[/blockquote]

Ben smith is a sickening Hillary troll masquerading as a human.

What he should say:

Although many would argue that the four debates between us, in addition to the other 17 debates we've participated in, should be enough for the American people to see where we stand on these issues, I agree that as a tribute to the great Lincoln/Douglas debates, this would make an excellent format for one, last debate.

(note emphasis on last)

Why he should accept:
(1) Negates the whole "coward" angle that she's sure to keep finagling at.
(2) Puts her in a format where if she goes negative, it will be starkly obvious. This will either prevent her from going negative (meaning she has to play in his turf), or cause her to damage herself by going negative.
(3) The analogy to Lincoln/Douglas will cause pundits everywhere to ask who is more like Lincoln: the 1-term Senator from Illinois (just like Lincoln, of course), or Clinton.

Hillary is too manipulative. She could have agreed to the original NC plan if she wanted to debate so badly. (She wanted to move the date to one that suited her more after Barack agreed to her PA debate).

My favorite bit is the analogy to Lincoln/Douglas. Surely the pundits would have a hard time resisting that, right? Regardless of their bias, putting Obama into the role of Lincoln is just too easy for lazy pundits to pass up.

Considering Hillary's history so far of trying to rewrite every rule in every book for every thing on the planet that has a rule, I wouldn't go near her for anything vaguely resembling a debate.

avatar

I think this is a great idea for Obama and John McCain.


If Hillary puts her money where her mouth is, and says all she cares about is making sure a Democrat wins the election, then we should stop fighting ourselves and start fighting our opposition.


Fox News Sunday aired a snippet from the Obama interview that will air tomorrow where he was asked if there would be any more debates and he flatly said he will not debate Hillary between now and the Indiana and NC primaries. Of course this question was asked before this current proposition.

Hillary is after free air time again, however I don't think there is really a threat to Obama to accept given the format. I mean She has a helluva lot more skeletons, though I can guarantee Clinton would bring up Rezko for the first time officially - to which I'd love to see Obama rattle off a laundry list of Clinton scandals that would take up his full two minutes to get through.

Of course this challenge is further Clinton desperation, though it does rebut Obama's claim of no more debates because they lack substance from the moderators. She gets free publicity from the challenge and either from the debate if he does accept or the fallout if he declines.

He should let Michelle debate her. I'd pay to watch that.

Now you're talking, jdw. I'd pay to see that debate.

avatar

Yeah, I am conflicted about this too. On the one hand it would be fun to watch, but only the parts where your candidate is doing well and the other candidate gets a right hook to the jaw. In other words, I think it will damage party unity even more (assuming that's possible). Also, I don't like that it gives her free air time. If she wants air time, she should pay for it. Okay, I am secretly full of glee that she is broke. I think it is Karma of the highest order.

avatar

I think the sooner Obama gets his own stride back, staying focused on his own game, instead of being constantly derailed by Hillary's agenda, the better. She's just waiting to get him to attack her so she can say "Is this the kind of new politics you stand for?"

The format is ripe for a bullying. I mean you could launch one "assault" after another and have the opponent always defending themselves. You can't debate somebody in this format when their sole remaining strategy is to tear you down to the point of making you unelectable.

I think a basketball game would be better.

Not being goaded/brow beaten into accepting a nothing-to-gain debate could be seen as a positive. I mean if he Marty McFly? You call him a coward and you get exactly what you want?

Earlir, when she was the front runner, this would have been great for him. Now its a o win scenario for him. Either he gaffes, which is what she's trying to force, or he beats her like a drum. If he beats her like a drum, she'll sniffle about how she was bullied by the big mean boy and amp up her support among her S/DWF

And, honestly, if I had to listen to 45 minutes of her sing-song droning of her endless laundry list of policy plans and wonky trivia, I'd shoot myself.

Okay, lets try that again using the whole alphabet.

Earlier, when she was the front runner, this would have been great for him. Now its a no win scenario for him. Either he gaffes, which is what she's trying to force, or he beats her like a drum. If he beats her like a drum, she'll sniffle about how she was bullied by the big mean boy and amp up her support among her S/DWF base.

And, honestly, if I had to listen to 45 minutes of her sing-song droning of her endless laundry list of policy plans and wonky trivia, I'd shoot myself.

Invite McCain to the debate. Let's see who's a Democrat and who's a Republican.

CNN is reporting that:

Sen. Barack Obama flat out denied any possibility that he would accept a debate with rival Sen. Hillary Clinton prior to the next big round of primaries.

As justification for his denial, Obama tells CNN:

"I'm not ducking one. We've had 21, we want to make sure we're talking to as many folks possible on the ground taking questions from voters."

avatar

Its pretty clear that there have been more then enough debates. The Obama supporters have been telling us this for the last few debates. I remember all the posts telling us that there were 18 debates, no one wants any more. Now there have been 21 and its the same convincing argument, no one wants any more. The evidence is clear. Nobody wants these debates. Just take a look at the number of viewers.

California 4.9 million

Texas 7.6 million

Ohio 7.8 million

PA 10.7 million

You can see how the American public watched each debate in greater and greater numbers to express their desire that there be no more debates. Not only that, the public's desire for an end to the debates was sustained throughout the whole 90 minutes of the debate. Even against American Idol 96% of the viewers decided to stick with the debate to make it clear to the networks that they didn't want the debate to occur.

"The first hour of Wednesday's debate ranked first in its time period among Total Viewers, Adults 18-49 and Adults 25-54. Up against Fox's "American Idol" and an original episode of CBS' "Criminal Minds" at 9 p.m., the debate retained 96% of it Total Viewing audience, retained 100% of its Adults 25-54 audience, and grew 4% among Adults 18-49 from the first hour to the second hour."

Given this trend it appears that if there is another debate even more people will tune in and watch the whole debate to show the networks that the American people don't want debates. Enough already. No one wants debates.

Post a Comment

Inside Cafe



Cafe Features


October 6-10

Book Cover

October 13-17

Book Cover

October 20-24

Book Cover

November 17-21>

Book Cover

December 1-5

Book Cover





Book Club Archive



Masthead

Editor-in-Chief
Josh Marshall

Site Editor
Lila Shapiro

Intern
Claire Wilcox



Subscribe to TPMCafe's feed.
Subscribe to TPMCafe's reader blog feed.

Advertise Liberally
Share
Close Social Web Email

"To" Email Address

Your Name

Your Email Address