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Why are (some) Hillary supporters mad at Obama?
l understand why some Obama supporters are angry at Hillary -- for talking up McCain over Obama, for flirting with the idea of relying on superdelegates to overcome the results of the voting, for stoking the Jeremiah Wright story. I don't really understand, though, why some Hillary supporters are angry at Obama. </p>
<p> I agree that the media's coverage of Hillary has been aggressively slanted much of the time (though it is also true that no other Democrat in Clinton's position would be taken seriously by the media, as she still is). And I agree that some of the comments by Clinton and her people have been unreasonably cast as racially tinged. But Obama isn't to blame for the media, and at least to my knowledge, Obama and his campaign staff have not insinuated that Clinton or her people are at all racist. Additionally, while I think comments from the Clinton camp have often been interpreted too negatively, the interpretations have not been outlandish or hard to predict and avoid. For instance, Bill Clinton couldn't have been surprised that people took a very dim view of his dismissing the South Carolina primary on the ground that Jesse Jackson won in South Carolina, too.</p>
<p>Most of Obama's criticisms of Hillary strike me as reasonably fair (though any criticism of your favored candidate will seem irksome) and no big deal. (And much of Hillary's criticism of Obama -- with the exceptions noted above -- strikes me the same way.)</p>
<p>So, for those Hillary fans who are mad at Obama: What are the particular things Obama has done that make you so angry? And why are they so important that some of you say you won't vote for Obama over McCain but would rather have four more years of Bush policy on the war (and perhaps a new war with Iran, to boot), and another president who has not paid much attention to economic issues but is reflexively anti-progressive? I'd really like to know.


Comments (155)
Sorry about all the
,
business. I obviously haven't gotten the hang of this thing. Just can't seem to get the paragraph breaks I want.March 26, 2008 7:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
The comment editor and the blog editor are two different animals at this point. The blog editor is a very simple WYSIWIG RTF type editor that doesn't respect HTML. The comment editor is plain text and it does accept HTML. So, two different paradigms are required.
March 26, 2008 5:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Don't use html tags when using the Blog text editor. Use the buttons up above. If you don't have a text editor with tag buttons above, try dumping the cache and refreshing your browser. You don't need to put a
, or any other tag into your Blog post. Use the buttons.
HTML works only when commenting. Is does not work in the Bog text box.
March 26, 2008 8:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
I posted this before. Obama is a manufactured product, a marketing campaign, a brand.
He was made a Senator by Emil Jones, financed by Tony Rezko and marketed by David Axelrod.
The only difference between Coke Zero and Obama is that Coke is not running for office.
He ingratiated himself with the worst of Chicago politics in order to rise to the top, and used his considerable gift for oratory and his exotic background in the process.
I started out as Obama supporter and even donated to him. No more. My problem with him is that I no longer trust a single word he says.
He is a wolf in sheep's clothing, a typical calculating lying politician who has not been around long enough to give me a sense of confidence that he really is who he claims to be.
Anyone can write a book, but actions speak louder than words. Obama's actions against his Senate opponents, his Wright actions, him throwing his grandmother under a bus - to me are unforgivable.
Sorry if this is too harsh, I'm angry.
March 26, 2008 7:48 AM | Reply | Permalink
I don't think it's too harsh. The basic argument is very understandable. It seems to be "This is unfair."
Here are some of the unfair advantages Lalo stresses:
"his considerable gift for oratory and his exotic background"
writing a book (which anyone could do, if they were willing to stoop to it)
approaching politics in a calculating fashion
using a campaign manager
being from Chicago
using members of his immediate family for political gain
and presenting himself to the American public as "a marketing campaign, a brand"
No further comment. See below.
March 26, 2008 8:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
Not at all, and you can carry on twisting my words in whichever way you find convenient.
The basic argument, for me personally, is that Obama is a political fraud.
I don't agree with your "unfair" interpretation at all.
March 26, 2008 11:04 AM | Reply | Permalink
Correction duly noted. Obama is a fraud because of
"his considerable gift for oratory and his exotic background"
his book
his campaign manager
the fact that he markets himself well to the American people
and so on. In short, because he's a very successful politician.
I understand that these might be reasons to resent his success in the primary. But I don't see anything here that should keep a rational Democrat from voting for him in the general.
March 26, 2008 11:50 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm with Genghis...I'd really like to hear more specifics from you. From reading your posts, you are not a completely reactive Hillary supporter so I am truly interested in your position. What is that makes you think he is a fraud? specifically?
I don't see it myself - or even if it were true I guess I don't have a huge problem with it. I think he can back up his aura of leadership with substance. I mean, Reagan, for example, was a great leader even if you didn't like his positions. He was definitely able to move people in his direction and he put a lot of really bright people around him. One might consider that to be a fraud - I don't.
The comment about the worst of Chicago politics is a bit over the top as well. Even if you do believe there are real issues with Rezsko, the bar for entering in to the worst of Chicago politics is pretty damn high!
March 26, 2008 11:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
TaraV, I'm at work so I don't have a lot of time to type a lengthy reply. But in any case, the point here is not provide you with a bullet-point summary. The point is the overall and growing feeling of distrust and alienation.
Some people told me this morning that they will be more comfortable voting for McCain (!!!!!!). These are democrats! If the Congress is worth its salt, it will keep McCain in check. If the Congress is too weak, then a lot has to be said about the netroots, 50-state strategy, et al.
It's a little bit hard to tell exactly what's going on. What I see in the people I know is this growing anti-Obama feeling that's bottled up for now. I only know about 5 Obama supporters so I can't really speak for the other side.
March 26, 2008 2:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Some people told me..."
"Some would say..."
I've seen Fox News. 'Nuff said.
March 26, 2008 6:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
No kidding...and just like Fox Lalo tosses out claims and makes innuendos with no facts to back him up. The few times he deigns to even try to answer the questions, there's always an excuse as to why he can't answer the question.
Speaking of frauds.
March 27, 2008 12:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
Look, he doesn't have time for a lengthy reply. Curiously, he has time to post many comments every day, but get off the guy's back already! Lalo's a busy bee, constantly on the go. There's no time for "backing things up" with "bullet points" when the brevity of gut-checks will suffice. Lalo is going to feel the news at you.
March 27, 2008 6:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
Facts?
"Why are (some) Hillary supporters mad at Obama?"
What facts do you want?
March 27, 2008 7:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
Lalo, I'm surprised to learn that you were once an Obama supporter, as you are one of the most strident TPM voices opposed to him (excluding the crazies). If memory serves me correctly, the main factor you cite, the Wright issue, arose after you became an anti-Obama poster on TPM. The other factors, his oratory and Chicago background, you should have known from the beginning. So what was it that caused you to switch from a supporter to a critic?
PS "thow under the bus" has now replaced "drink the kool aid" as the most hackneyed cliche of the campaign. I urge you to find alternative terminology.
March 26, 2008 11:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
Believe it or not, I was tracking Obama since the 2004 convention speech that launched him like Steve Jobs launched the iPhone.
But this nomination alone has been going on for a while now, in case you haven't noticed.
March 26, 2008 11:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
OK. But I'm still hoping to hear what you have to say. What was it that originally turned you into an Obama critic?
March 26, 2008 11:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
Talk about the audacity of hope.
March 27, 2008 6:01 AM | Reply | Permalink
When I saw a disconnect between what he said and what he did, I realized that (a) it didn't feel right to me, and (b) I didn't know anything about the man except for his own words.
I just started watching him more carefully. When he said "Likeable enough" in the debate, I was really worried. It felt like those rare slips of the tongue when the real person shows behind the makeup. I read different accounts of his earlier life. what kind of community organizer he was, how he got elected to the Senate, etc, etc.
The last time I felt anything positive towards Obama was his Iowa speech.
March 27, 2008 7:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
No. You're wrong.
Just consider for a minute the possibility that what's really manufactured -- mostly by Taylor Marsh and Larry Johnson -- is the narrative that Obama is a fake.
I went on to Taylor Marsh's site yesterday and looked around, and you Hillary supporters are really living in an alternate universe that strikes me as pretty divorced from reality in which Hillary is a victim of the greatest con man ever and everything we all know about Obama is an illusion.
I read the story by the Houston reporter stating all the things you're saying, and it strikes me as bunk. Jones said he gave Obama the legislation to handle because he thought that Obama could get it through better and Obama adamantly insists that those folks would never have gotten anywhere with any of it without him.
Now, of course, I'm sure that those people truly believe they worked hard on some of this stuff and think they could have brought these items into the end zone on their own. But just consider the possibility that Jones and Obama are right and they couldn't. That they needed the star running back who, yes, gets all the glory because he runs it in even though the whole team contributed.
Regardless, Obama's perception of his achievements is only a lie if you buy the story of these other people as more than sour grapes that Obama was more successful than they were, and at a young age without putting in as many years as they did. I don't.
And as for Marsh's list of Obama's supposed exxagerations of his achievements, most of it has been answered before pretty clearly or doesn't strike me as all that significant.
March 26, 2008 11:54 AM | Reply | Permalink
No. You're wrong.
You are answering the wrong question. The question i was answering is "Why some Clinton supporters are mad at Obama?"
I already know the Obama talking points, there is no need to repeat them, thank you.
March 26, 2008 4:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think destor23 has cracked this nut below:
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/03/why-are-some-hillary-supporter.php#comment-2681485
March 27, 2008 6:03 AM | Reply | Permalink
Youd didn't answer the quesiton, of course. Which was "What are the particular things Obama has done that make you so angry?"
March 26, 2008 5:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
See, this is where my problem is with this argument: Obama is an empty-suit liar. I get it.
But Clinton is trustworthy?
If you are of such a cynic that you profoundly doubt every single thing that Obama does, logic would dictate that you apply the same scrutiny to Clinton. Factually speaking there are in fact in terms of sheer numbers far more cases where Clinton has been shown to be inconsistent, embellishing or outright misspeaking/misrepresenting than there are of Obama.
In spite of the observable facts, your conclusion is that of the two, Obama is the liar. This should be extremely alarming to you. Internal inconsistency is a huge warning flag.
Again, I would invite you to examine your logic on the issue.
March 26, 2008 5:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Exactly. "Obama is an empty suit" falls flat as an argument the second you tell me that Clinton is thusly a superior choice. The rational mind recoils in horror.
Lalo is telling us not to vote for Coke Zero because we should obviously recognize that it is inferior to Crystal Pepsi.
Wait, what?
March 26, 2008 5:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
I find this post odd, at the least. Hillary isn't a manufactured politician? She became Senator on her own merits as opposed to being boosted into the job by the powers that be in NY Democratic politics and by Bill? Her support doesn't include basically corrupt powerful people? She is not a typical lying politician, but he is? The pot accuses the kettle. You are too angry because you are mad.
March 26, 2008 9:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
You little monkeys are conspiracy theorists and trying to cook one up aren't you? The RNC is looking for a few good people on their Swiftboat Committee. If you believe in bigfoot, you're sure to get hired. Good luck-try again.
March 26, 2008 10:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
What are the particular things Obama has done that make you so angry?
Well, just for instance:
IA, SC, GA, IL, MO, MN, ID, WA, WI, ME, AL, LA, VA, MD, DE, WY, VT, KS, UT
That's just a start, but I think it includes some of his major offenses.
Occasionally they say they're mad at Obama *supporters*, rather than Obama himself. But personally, I think it's unfair to blame all of Obama's supporters for Sinbad's actions.
March 26, 2008 7:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
Hey! Don't forget us here in CT! We were buried under a blizzard of EMILY's List mailings and inundated with NOW robocalls but still turned out for Obama.
March 26, 2008 9:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama's actions against Senate opponents? What? Please describe.
March 26, 2008 8:24 AM | Reply | Permalink
Lalo35adm
-- Have you read the books you refer to? You might meet the very real person if you care to.
-- Have you read the results of the more than 3 hours of direct questioning that Sen. Obama submitted himself to at the Chicago Tribue and Chicago Sun Times, in which both papers concluded there was no evidence of any wrongdoing in connection with Rezko. Has Sen. Clinton ever been so open about the many scandals to which she is appointed.
-- I, too, am curious about his actions against his Senate opponents. I've not heard anything. As I understand it, two self-imploded on scandal and the third was Alan Keyes
-- What actions against Wright? Faithfully attending a church whose pastor is well respected and not to be judged by a 30 second video clip. Do some research on him, please.
-- Did you hear Sen. Obama talk about his grandmother on Larry King? He mentioned her to point out that loving people who are NOT racists still have built-in fears and suspicions of people who are different. Read his books.
I'm sorry. Rote phrases like "manufactured product" and "lying politican" standing alone simply aren't convincing. If I had supported a candidate (as I once did Hillary) and then withdrew that support (as I did), I could give a lot of reasons based on sound fact (as I can, regrettably).
March 26, 2008 8:41 AM | Reply | Permalink
Hi Elizabeth:
I understand everything you say in his defense, but I don't find it at all convincing.
Anyone can write a book, many politicians did. The fact by itself doesn't change anything. I would buy into his story, as presented in the book, with the same skepticism as into Hillary's story - they all have vested interest in presenting themselves better than they are.
You form an opinion about the politician based on what he says, what he does and the consistency between these two things. For me, that consistency was broken a long time ago, as far as Obama is concerned.
The true convictions of any politicians are tested in a political fight. Obama never had such fight in his life - he leisurely cruised to where he is today. His record on Iraq, what could have been his defining moment, is a typical calculating opportunistic strategy.
I have no doubt he can give a great speech and excite a lot of people. That's not enough, in my book. A President is not a cheerleader, but a head of the executive branch. I want the government that works, not only talks.
March 26, 2008 11:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
You'll never get a government that works with HRC. She is the prime example of why it does not work. She, like you are of the "me, me, me" generation.... there's nothing you nor she fears more than "we".....
March 26, 2008 11:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
The question of the post is why you hate Obama.
Even to the extent that what you says is true -- and that's debateable -- it's all equally true of Hillary.
Her New York Senate races were cakewalks.
There's no doubt that she engages in political calculation in everything.
She presents herself as someone she's not as we've seen this week.
But somehow all that's not a damnable crime for her, just Obama.
And I half to say, any argument that Obama doesn't know how to fight tough in a political campaign is belied by what we've seen in his campaign for the nomination. It hasn't been easy. He's been hit hard by Wright and such, and yet his poll numbers are still strong.
March 26, 2008 2:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
I have to echo Elizabeth2 here. The main reason I first got interested in Obama, after the 2004 convention speech, was that I just happened to buy a copy of Dreams from my Father at a buy 2 get 1 free booksale. After one chapter, I called my father and said, "You have got to buy this book." His perceptiveness and openness to human experience were so unusual for politicians of any stripe. So while the contention that "anyone can write a book" (with ghostwriters) may apply to other politicians, Dreams from my Father is wholly removed from that genre, and actually--for me, my father, and my Republican grandmother-- speaks to a very authentic personality. Just one family's opinion.
March 26, 2008 3:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Actually, I never found it dishonest in the slightest. I find no problem believing that a politician who was opposed to going in nonetheless feels that after we went in, it is irresponsible to defund the effort. That, to me, is a sign that he understands the situation, and I would be upset if he had voted any other way.
March 26, 2008 10:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm no more a fan of Hillary than I am of Obama and I'm going to vote for the ticket, either way, but I have to reiterate something TUnderwood said; I think the issue may be more with his supporters than the actual candidate.
James Carville, a talking head, said something and there were easily three dozen posts making the same basic points in disagreement. I just commented to another thread and now I'm waiting for someone to present their challenge to a single definition. There are other blogsites which are full of name-calling and though this site is better, there's still a lot of personal negativity toward the candidate.
Heck, I disagree with your perceived Hillary slights because one is open to interpretation, one appears to me that it has a grounding in a single example, but it has grown to mythic proportions and both candidates are going to need superdelegates to get the nomination.
Not to mention all of the calls for her to drop out, though she's not only still garnering a significant percentage of votes, but she won some the last round and will probably win some in the next. Also, whenever someone says that she should drop out and disenfranchise the voters in the few states which remain, a lot of them inevitably say that the race is over and Obama needs to focus on McCain, while few of his supporters ever seem to do it and instead, they just keep rehashing their individual bits about Hillary, over and over.
Oh, and just yesterday morning, the daily meme was that some unnamed source expressed their opinion to the Politico last week, then David Brooks halved the unnamed source's number and the blogosphere appears to have taken it as fact.
I've also cautioned in the past and I'll do it again that because Obama looks like he'll most likely become the nominee, his supporters are going to have to tone things down because the general public will hold a lot of these tactics against Obama and this could very easily cost us the election.
People don't like to be called dumb, disingenuous, racist, old, cynical, classist or any of the other adjectives which are currently being deployed, even if it's sometimes true.
March 26, 2008 9:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
I am a Red Wings fan. Which means I hate everything Colorado. They are just a brand with evil players. I would spit on their skates and pee in their water bottles!
I started out supporting Sakic, I even sent him money. But if Sakic wanted to lift the cup in a reasonable way, he would have signed with Detroit. Then all would be forgiven. He could even wear an 'A' (not 'C') on his sweater.
Sorry if this is too harsh, I'm angry.
March 26, 2008 9:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
OH THat's IT storm!
Clearly you have been deluded by non-stop Red Wings propaganda on ESPN, AND ESPEN2! They should call it the Especially Stupid Persons Network (okay, I'm working on that) But your support for a phoney team full of jerks shows that everything you've ever said is wrong!1! Also, any game where the wings had a higher numerical score when the clock ran out doesn't count as a WIN nessecarily, becuase I said so.
March 26, 2008 5:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
May an octopus land on your head!
March 26, 2008 6:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
For me, the intense dislike for Obama began around the time of the "fairy tale". Donna Brazile labeled it a racist slur. Where was Obama's high-minded call for a post-racial world then? Non-existent. Why? Because he knew he if this spread, if the Clintons were labeled as race-baiters, he would not only push up his black support, but there would be a backlash among liberal whites.
Not only did Obama stay silent, but his campaign compliled a memo stoking the race-baiting flames, that he had to denounce in a debate (can't remember which one).
Then, his campaign pushed the Ferraro flap. They called for Hillary to denounce and reject. Not content to just leave it at that, they put out a memo saying that the Clinton campaign had an pattern of these sorts of comments. Why? To push the race-baiting theme again.
Then the Wright flap occurred. Obama gave his highbrow speech. What did he do just days later? His campaign sent the photo of Bill Clinton with Wright to all the media outlets. For some reason, he wanted to continue this controversy but that got little play. Now Josh Marshall is all in a tizzy over Hillary reviving the Wright story when he had very little to say about Obama doing it.
I'm pissed that there is constantly a double standard. I see Obama getting away with the grossest crap, while Hillary gets slammed for even the slightest thing. I don't know that I should hold it against him, and I wouldn't, if he didn't claim to be some kind of new politician. Holier than thou.
Media Bias: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4c47X5ASw8
March 26, 2008 9:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
Excellent points, and I echo the sentiment.
March 26, 2008 9:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
"Then, his campaign pushed the Ferraro flap." Gee, I can't imagine why.
"His campaign sent the photo of Bill Clinton with Wright to all the media outlets." Perhaps Wright is an respected member of the religious community and Obama wanted to defend himself against a media spinning out of control. Again, I can't imagine why...
Things aren't always so cut and dried. You do know that racism does exsit, right? As KO said, the pattern, whether intentional or not, was there for all to see.
March 26, 2008 12:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Is it really Obama's responsibility to stamp out criticisms of Hillary by people like Donna Brazile not affiliated with his campaign simply because the subject is race?
Is it therefore also Hillary's responsibility to stamp out charges of sexism that have been leveled at Kennedy and others for endorsing Obama?
I suppose you have a point if he sent out a memo encouraging Brazile's viewpoint, but by your own account he apologized for it. So why isn't his apology good enough when Hillary as also had staff members send out memos that she's apologized for?
What are you REALLY mad about?
As for the Ferraro thing, it boggles my mind that she brings the issue up and then it's somehow Obama's fault that race is again an issue.
And I suppose as Hillary brings up Wright again this week, it will also be Obama's fault that race is once again an issue?
And Obama's argument that there's a pattern of the Clintons trying to subtely brand him the black candidate is only an out of bounds charge if there isn't any truth to it.
But the fact is alot of people inside and outside the Obama campaign sincerely feel that there's been a concerted effort by the Clinton campaign to destroy Obama's candidacy by subtely implying that Obama only represents the interests of black people, not all Americans.
Rather than answer the charge, Clinton supporters turn the tables and attack Obama supporters and the media for making the charge in the first place.
Why should I not believe that this is a deliberate tactic to avoid a substantive response to the criticisms?
I would also point out that Hillary goes around at campaign stops talking specifically about her female bonafides as a mother, a daughter and a wife. She comes pretty close to saying to women vote for me because I'm a woman.
But Obama's never gone out and said to black people vote for me because I'm black. Yet, all of you insist that he's making race the center of his campaign.
March 26, 2008 4:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama has not been consistent on the was and when Bill Clinton pointed that out Obama portrayed it as a racist attack on his whole candidacy. Obama's willingness to incite racial hatred for his own political benefit is what disqualifies him for the Presidency ever for me. (Obama similarly was willing to appeal to homophobes by headlining Donnie Mcglurkin.)
Here's chapter and verse on what Bill Clinton was driving at from NO Quarter at 10.:
Current ArticleBarack “I-didn’t-know” Obama
By MBolackcloseAuthor: MBolack Name: M Bolack
Email: susanunpc@gmail.com
Site:
About: See Authors Posts (1) on March 24, 2008 at 10:30 PM in Austan Goolsbee, Barack Obama, Crown family, David Axelrod, Emil Jones, Foreign affairs, Hillary Clinton, Iraq, Lobbyists, Maytag, Michelle Obama, NAFTA, NATO, New Black Panthers, Nuclear Power, Rev. Jeremiah Wright Jr., Tony Rezko
Vetting our two Democratic presidential candidates has definitely been a mixed bag. On one hand, Hillary Clinton’s life and political history has been in the news and reported online for many years. Barack Obama is another deal. He has essentially gotten a free ride in the national media, only being questioned seriously when the news was so shocking that the mainstream media had no choice but to report it.
So I went hunting, and was often surprised at what I found. It amounts to a pattern that I find dismaying. There are a lot of links here, documenting sources for my conclusions, and there is a lot to read.
Here is my list, in no particular order. See if you agree with me, and answer the questions for yourself… did he really not know, or is it just that he didn’t mind?
1. He joined and remained active in a church where racism and anti-American hate is routinely preached. He and his family attended, and heavily contributed for about 20 years. This has received worldwide attention, as show in the link below.
Ten Must-See Videos from The Times Online
Obama first claimed not to know about Wright’s inflammatory statements. He later admitted he did.
CBS News
Flip-Flip Video
CBS News
OOPS… didn’t notice. Or else he forgot.
Rev Wright, one of the ministers, even promoted Obama and denigrated Hillary Clinton from the pulpit spurring an IRS investigation as to the validity of their non-profit status. The Obama campaign is also reported to have campaigned on at least one occasion at church events, furthering the curiosity of the IRS.
WCBS TV
Obama Speech at General Synod of the United Church of Christ
But, OOPS… he didn’t know. Or didn’t mind.
2. Senator Obama bought stock in two companies whose investors included his 2004 campaign political donors. One, in fact, was developing medicine to treat avian flu — with the stock purchase coming right before Obama introduced legislation to increase funding to combat the virus.
The other company, SkyTerra, received government permission to build a national wireless network on the day Obama purchased his shares. Among the principal owners of this business were four people who had raised more than $150,000 for Obama. Attorney Obama claimed later that they were in a semi-blind trust, that just didn’t legally work out. When this became public, Obama sold the stock.
Chicago Sun-Times
New York Times
Oops… he didn’t know. Or didn’t he mind?
3. Senator Obama came into politics through the famously corrupt Chicago political machine, with the help of some of the slimiest characters imaginable. (Several major players who helped him are have been indicted for graft, fraud, etc. Obama now keeps a rep at Rezko’s trial every day to monitor testimony.) Obama has had to donate to charity much of the money they gave him to get his start, though the admitted dollar amount keeps increasing as time goes on. It’s now up over $250,000. Tony Rezko, currently at trial on federal charges of attempted extortion, money laundering, and fraud, was also involved in the purchase of Obama’s home at well below market value.
Huffington Post
Chicago Sun-Times
New York Times
Not so well publicized is the fact that Obama wrote letters to the Illinois Dept of Housing, recommending Rezco’s company, North Kenwood, LLC, for the housing projects that soon became slums, causing inhumane hardship for their residents.
Obama Letters
These slums, later repossessed, were in Obama’s district while he was an Illinois senator. In fact, some are about a mile from his home, and several are still boarded up. Obama professed to be unaware of any problems. During the Democratic debate on January 21, 2008, Obama, in fact, gave the impression that he had merely done about 5 hours of legal work for “this individual.”
The Rezko Foreclosed Properties
telegraph.co.uk
No Quarter
Rezko Watch
Chicago Tribune: Almost Believable
OOPS… he didn’t know. Or did he care?
4. According to the Sun-Times, Barack Obama, “allegedly decent guy and agent of change” in Washington, requested an earmark in 2006 for $1 million taxpayer dollars for the University of Chicago Hospitals, where is wife, Michelle Obama, was a vice president. Said hospital, by the way, gave Michelle Obama a huge raise (nearly $200,000, more than doubling her salary) in 2005 after Barack was elected to the United States Senate.
Michelle Obama
Chicago Sun-Times
According to The Chicago Tribune, “Obama had a special connection to Maytag: Lester Crown, one of the company’s directors and biggest investors whose family, records show, has raised tens of thousands of dollars for Obama’s campaigns since 2003.” Maytag closed its refrigerator plant in Galesburg, Ill during Obama’s 2004 Senate campaign, but Crown says Obama never raised the fate of the Galesburg plant with him. Obama’s campaign responded “that the senator did not know Crown sat on Maytag’s board until the Tribune noted it last September in a story about the closing of the Maytag headquarters in Newton, Iowa.”
Chicago Tribune
Obama Truth
Oops… he didn’t know? Or didn’t he care?
5. Obama took donations from federal lobbyists and political action committees for his House and Senate races and his own Hopefund political action committee. He only stopped taking this political money — and began speaking out against it — when he launched his presidential campaign in February 2007. However, he still takes hundreds of thousands of dollars from their high level employees.
Politifact
The Hill
Politifact
Oops… he didn’t know? Or doesn’t mind?
6. Opponents have asked Senator Obama to release the records from his term of state office in Illinois. Since he has little other experience in politics (he did, after all, declare his presidential candidacy barely 2 years after election to the US Senate), this doesn’t seem an unreasonable request. The records might also shed light on his relationship with Rezko and some of the other corrupt individuals he rubbed shoulders with during his climb up through Chicago politics. But lo and behold, the records all seem to have mysteriously disappeared.
Politico
The Pantagraph, a central Illinois newspaper
Questions have also been raised about Obama-sponsored legislation during the last year he was in office there. It is alleged that, in the interest of making Obama appear more prolific, then Illinois Senate Majority Leader Emil Jones appointed Obama as sponsor of many pieces of legislation, even though other senior senators had spent many years working on the bills.
“I took all the beatings and insults and endured all the racist comments over the years from nasty Republican committee chairmen,” State Senator Rickey Hendon, the original sponsor of landmark racial profiling and videotaped confession legislation yanked away by Jones and given to Obama, complained to me at the time. “Barack didn’t have to endure any of it, yet, in the end, he got all the credit.”
“I don’t consider it bill jacking,” Hendon told me. “But no one wants to carry the ball 99 yards all the way to the one-yard line, and then give it to the halfback who gets all the credit and the stats in the record book.”
As a result, Todd Spivak of the Houston Press noted, “During his seventh and final year in the state Senate, Obama’s stats soared. He sponsored a whopping 26 bills passed into law — including many he now cites in his presidential campaign when attacked as inexperienced.”
Houston Press
Oops… he didn’t know? Or did he mind?
7. Obama’s website sported a page for the New Black Panthers organization until it was discovered and reported by the media. It was quickly removed. Obama denounced their support, but the New Black Panthers’ Winter 2008 newsletter still carries a full page ad for his campaign on page 36. Though the origin of the ad is not stated, it contains logos, graphics and quotes from the Obama website, which Obama could have ordered removed as a copyright violation.
The NBP page, before its deletion.
NBP Winter 2008 Newsletter
OOPs… he didn’t know.
8. In addition to the controversy concerning his numerous “present” votes while in the Illinois legislature, Obama also maintains that he just pushed the wrong button on 5 or 6 other votes. (Let’s not even go there!)
According to the New York Times, however, an examination of Illinois records shows at least 36 times when Mr. Obama was either the only state senator to vote present or was part of a group of six or fewer to vote that way, causing many to question whether he was really just trying to avoid taking a stand.
LA Times on Obama votes
Real Clear Politics
New Your Times
Obama also has an exceptionally high no-show ration for votes since coming to the Senate.
Media Matters
OOPS… he didn’t know? Or didn’t he care?
9. On Wednesday, Feb 27, 2008, CTV reported that a senior member of Obama’s campaign, Austan Goolsbee, spoke directly with the Canadian Consulate General in Chicago to assure them that if Obama publicly spoke about opting out of NAFTA, they should not take it seriously. It would just be political posturing… campaign rhetoric. Obama flatly denied the report, attacking both Senator Clinton and Senator McCain for their comments on the issue.
On March 4, the New York Times, among other sources, revealed that the conversation had indeed taken place, and published the memo. The Canadian government announced that an investigation would begin to find out who was responsible for leaking the memorandum concerning the conversation.
CTV News
New York Times
New York Times published the memo
OOPS… he didn’t know.
10. Obama’s position on the war in Iraq, in spite of the October 2002 speech, has not been as unwavering as he would have us believe.
He wrote in The Audacity of Hope that by March of 2003, “I began to suspect that I might have been wrong.”
In July, 2004, he told the Chicago Tribune, “There’s not that much difference between my position and George Bush’s position at this stage.”
Once elected to the US Senate, he told Charlie Rose on PBS, “Once the decision was made, then we’ve got to do everything we can to stabilize the country, to make it successful, because we’ll have too much at stake in the Middle East. And that’s the position that I continue to take.”
Obama continued that tack in his speech of November, 2005. Mirroring the Bush administration’s position, he asserted on January 26, 2006, that “it remains my position that we have a role to play in stabilizing the country as Iraqis are getting their act together.” In this interview on Meet the Press, he further stated, “My position has been that it would not be responsible for us to unilaterally and precipitously draw troops down regardless of the politics, because I think that all of us have a stake in seeing Iraq succeed.”
It wasn’t until October of 2006 that he called for “all the leadership in Washington to execute a serious change of course in Iraq.”
A month before he announced his presidential candidacy he repositioned himself again, saying for the first time, “It’s time to start bringing our troops home.”
It wasn’t until May of 2007 that Obama voted against funding for the war for the first time.
In June, 2007, Obama voted no to Senator John F. Kerry’s proposal to remove most combat troops from Iraq by July 2007, warning that an “arbitrary deadline” could “compound” the Bush administration’s mistake. He voted instead for a Republican-sponsored resolution that stated the Senate would not cut off funding for troops in Iraq.
Commentary Magazine
Obama Gets the Facts Wrong
Clinton Takes on Obama
MSNBC
The Boston Globe
OOPS… did he forget?
11. Senator Obama is chair of of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee’s Subcommittee on Europe, having been appointed in early 2007. According to Congressional Records, the subcommittee’s jurisdiction includes “all matters, policies and problems concerning the continent of Europe, including the European member states of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization.” That means it has jurisdiction over NATO.
As Senator Clinton asserted in a recent debate, “NATO is critical to our mission in Afghanistan. He’s held not one substantive hearing to do oversight, to figure out what we can do to actually have a stronger presence with NATO in Afghanistan.”
Politifact
OOPS… he didn’t know… or did he forget?
12. Senator Obama told Tim Russert in January of 2006 that “I will serve out my full six-year term.”
From the official transcript of Meet the Press:
MR. RUSSERT: But there seems to be an evolution in your thinking. This is what you told the Chicago Tribune last month: “Have you ruled out running for another office before your term is up?” Obama answered, “It’s not something I anticipate doing.” But when we talked back in November of `04 after your election I said, “There’s been enormous speculation about your political future. Will you serve your six-year term as United States senator from Illinois?” Obama, “Absolutely.”
SEN. OBAMA: I will serve out my full six-year term. You know, Tim, if you get asked enough, sooner or later you’re going to get weary and you start looking for new ways of saying things. But my thinking has not changed.
MR. RUSSERT: So you will not run for president or vice-president in 2008?
SEN. OBAMA: I will not.
Obama formed an exploratory committee in January of 2007 and declared his candidacy two months later.
Meet The Press Transcript January 22, 2006
“Obama Takes the Russert Test” from The Swamp
Obama Learns the Washington Ways
OOPS… he forgot.
13. Senator Obama promised to use public financing for the general election if his Republican opponent would do the same. Now, apparently after he realized how much more money he could have at his disposal, he has reversed himself.
League of Women Voters
Mr Obama’s Waffle
OOPS… he forgot.
14. Obama bragged in the Iowa debate about the “nuclear legislation I’ve passed.” When he encountered resistance from the nuclear industry… including Illinois-based Excelon, the country’s largest nuclear plant operator and one of Mr. Obama’s largest sources of campaign money, he edited his bill several times, making it weaker each time. The bill, however, never passed. It died. But Mr Obama gained a chief political strategist… David Axelrod. In October 2007, Obama resubmitted the bill in its watered-down version.
Nuclear Leaks and Response Tested Obama in Senate
OOPS… he forgot.
15. Senator Obama purports to be in favor of “universal” health care, utilizing private insurance, on the campaign trail. In fact, he adamantly denied advocating single payor. But there was a time when he was in favor of the single payor system.
Video
The Swamp
OOPS… he forgot.
16. While campaigning, Obama told several hundred people in Iowa, “No lobbyists need apply to my White House.”
However, in contrast to his pledge to fight against the influence of special interests, his record on employing lobbyists isn’t quite so pristine. Several high level members of his campaign are registered lobbyists, including his New Hampshire campaign manager. Lately, he has softened his campaign line to, “They are not going to run my White House.”
The Boston Globe
The Wall Street Journal
Politico
The Washington Post
The Hill
Obama actually seems very comfortable working with lobbyists on legislation. To site just one example…
According to ABC, Obama “has quietly worked with corporate lobbyists to help pass breaks worth $12 million,” that gave two overseas companies tariff suspensions. Both companies also have facilities in Illinois.
One of these companies, Nufarm, told its shareholders it was making “more money than ever before in North America because it had increased its prices on its U.S. and Canadian customers, predominantly farmers.” This had the effect of profiting business interests in his state, while punishing its farmers.
According to ABC News, “With a dozen tariff suspension bills to his name, Obama stands out as the most prolific of any Democratic presidential hopeful on the topic.”
Despite Rhetoric, Obama Pushed Lobbyists’ Interests
OOPS… he forgot. Or didn’t he mind?
How many other things are we going to find that Senator Obama conveniently forgot? It is my hope that the political powers-that-be will lay off the talk about ending the primaries early, and that the media and the internet diggers will help us truly vet Senator Obama. Use a little old-fashioned, objective journalism… remember that?
If he has nothing more to hide, it can only help him.
But if we don’t know the whole story yet, it might just help us be certain that we can indeed put a Democrat in the White House in November.
That is, after all, what Democrats want, isn’t it?
Cross-posted at MyDD.com.
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This post is by MBolack who gave permission for re-posting.
March 26, 2008 4:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
AJM, your 16 points fail to answer the question here, to wit: "Why are some Hillary supporters mad at Obama?" A legit question. You answered:
1. He joined a hateful, anti-American church.
2. He voted on legislation that affected companies in which he owned stock (very rare, I'm sure).
3. He's from Chicago.
4. He earmarked money for a hospital... where his wife works.
"5. He only stopped taking this political money — and began speaking out against it — when he launched his presidential campaign " So you'd rather he kept taking lobbyist money? Huh?
"6. The records might also shed light on his relationship with Rezko ... " Really, as a Hillary supporter, REZKO is why you're mad at Obama??
“7. Obama’s website sported a page for the New Black Panthers organization ... It was quickly removed." Seriously, only someone who has no idea how the internet works could be upset that this happened. If you've been in a cave since 1996, now you're mad at Obama -- that's sound.
"8...to vote present ... causing many to question whether he was really just trying to avoid taking a stand." Many who? Many what? What bills? What strategic goals might have been served by voting present? What do suppose Obama gained? No point is made at 8.
"9... Austan Goolsbee..." Wait -- didn't Hillary totally lie in Ohio about her support for NAFTA? So can't Hillary supporters at best claim a TIE on 9? This can't be why you're mad...
Points 10-16 are even easier to dismiss, I'm sorry. The net effect is that you're saying Hillary supporters are mad at Obama because Obama has not been attacked enough. Or that he's exhibiting some "pattern" that proves he's not the messiah. Or something.
No one thinks Obama is the messiah. The press has not given him a totally free ride. He is not all style and no substance. I'm still waiting for someone to answer the question asked above -- which is a good question. And I'm wondering whether it simply goes to what I saw as the Hillary campaign's sense of inevitability, back when.
March 26, 2008 7:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
Susan? You're posting stuff from Susan? Man, she lost her marbles months ago with Larry Johnson. LOL...gosh. That explains so much about your comments. Thank you for that peek into your mindset...I completely understand so many of your comments now.
March 27, 2008 12:25 AM | Reply | Permalink
Good points. You remind me of a reason I support him- I believe you can have a different kind of politics, but still be flawed. And I've had to decide what is "different" enough once I concede things like going negative can still exist in huge change. Less than thou, but more productive than the status quo. Not just concepts but tangible results. For example, the speech he gave on race called out media reductionism and helps lift the level of discourse for everyone's benefit. Hillary's helped lift the level for her benefit.
March 26, 2008 9:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
that's kind of what I meant by Obama's marketing. he's marketed to us like he's the Elvis of politics.
March 26, 2008 11:25 AM | Reply | Permalink
They market mousetraps for killing mice. And lo and behold, that's what they do.
Maybe Obama is being marketed as a candidate who can transform politics because he can.
March 26, 2008 2:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
This is what is baffling to me, that people would object that Obama successfully sells himself and the Democratic party to the American people. And would use this as a reason NOT to vote for him. The fact is that Clinton has also tried to market herself--many Clinton defenders will point to her hawkishness as something that she doesn't really believe but says to innoculate herself against charges of weakness. She just hasn't been as successful. Others think she really is a hawk. Either way, it makes me not want her as the candidate.
For Obama there are also two possibilites: 1) Obama is sincere and the consistent political philosophy he has articulated in his books, his speeches, and his campaign is what he really believes. or 2) Obama is merely another personally ambitious pol but has convinced a huge number of people that he is 1). Either way, it makes me want him as the Democratic candidate, because if he can convince me (a perpetually cynical and mistrusting pessimist), he can convince a majority.
The media bias angle is another thing that puzzles me. Maybe there is an anti-Clinton and pro-Obama media bias and maybe there isn't. Either way, wouldn't we, as Democrats, want to put forth the Democrat the media likes and admires to run against the Republican the media likes and admires, instead of the one they dislike and whose every action they see through a prism of their dislike?
As for the "Chicago politician" line, I have a number of family members who are Chicago politicians and city civil servants. They wouldn't deny that Chicago politics are plenty dirty, although the "machine" is not what it once was; but they would deny that Obama is part of the machine. He ran as an outsider against the machine politician (Bobby Rush, to whom he lost) and ran on (and delivered) a platform of reform and transparency. Not exactly popular with the patronage crowd.
March 26, 2008 3:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Perhaps people like Lalo would prefer to adhere to their old prejudices and continue to run losing elections. This is exactly why I'm not a Democrat. They'd cut off their noses to spite their collective faces.
March 26, 2008 5:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
Good thing Hillary's campaign is marketing free. It would be awful if, for example, the CEO of a major marketing firm were running her campaign. That would be awful. Thankfully, she would never do such a thing. Just as her husband never would have employed such a character. Imagine: What if Bill Clinton had bowed down to focus grouping such crucial decisions as military operations in Bosnia just because some marketing geek told him it was the only way to save his political hide. I'm glad none of this ever happened.
March 26, 2008 5:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree with you that it's a terrible idea to stereotype Clinton supporters. I'm married to a Clinton supporter, so I've learned to walk a little lightly for the sake of party unity!
But realistically, magister, you know the blogosphere is full of nonsense on multiple sides. Especially on comment threads, we like arguing maybe a little more than we should. I could catalog the offensive attacks I've heard on Obama from HRC supporters . . . but I think you can imagine them, and I'll spare us.
The bottom line is that it makes no sense to decide a vote in Nov based on irritation at the geekiest 1% of a candidate's supporters. And fortunately for all of us (on both sides), most Americans have no idea how annoying we all are on the blogosphere.
March 26, 2008 9:41 AM | Reply | Permalink
I certainly understand your point of view and as I often preface my remarks: I don't really care who wins. I feel they both have strengths and weaknesses and both will get as much of my agenda through, as Congress will allow.
With that said though, I do know there's some pockets of Hillary supporters on this website and on others, but an example of this "bias" might be found in the story the other day about "Monica's blue dress".
I actually watched to see if anyone was going to make a post about the offending comment and perhaps one snuck by me, but I didn't see any as I scrolled back through the day. There were dozens of posts about James Carville (four days after his comment), several about Bosnia and a couple about the McCain thing, maybe a dozen more calling for her step down and a few about the ridiculous "McCartyism" claim, but none about the "blue dress" and just one or two which could be considered pro-Hillary in any way. (Though, I believe one of the posters may be a troll)
I mean, heck, everybody's now getting up in arms about a pretty innocuous response she gave about Rev. Wright, where she basically repeated what a lot of RL people have said and I tell you, if she (or I) truly wanted to go negative on the subject, there'd be no mistaking the intent. Though because she didn't really go negative, she's now getting criticized for not ducking the question.
And finally, I've said in other forums why the vocal Obama supporters offended me with South Carolina, but that's going back a ways and this comment is already too long, as it stands.
Again, my problem isn't with Obama, but it's been with some of his vocal supporters and I may be getting a reputation on this website as being something of a Hillaryite, but it's just that she's the one that I see getting unfairly attacked and on the rare occasions that anyone says anything negative about Obama, there's a swarm of people jumping to his defense, so I usally don't feel the need to add my thoughts.
March 26, 2008 10:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
Fair enough. There are more Obama supporters than HRC supporters on the web, so the debate is an unbalanced one. I agree that the blue dress comment was as low as anything I've heard in the whole campaign. It rightly got ignored in the MSM.
March 26, 2008 11:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
I wish more of the blogging population here would remember this. It seems like many here aren't aware of the vacuum in which all of this discussion is taking place.
March 26, 2008 5:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
The sexism in the media has been atrocious. One of the many glaring examples is the so called tears and crying of Hillary. Well there was no crying. There were no tears, not even one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIG1mJAdMv8
Worse though was Jesse Jackson Jr coming out and attacking her for the "tears" claiming she was fabricating and saying we should look at these tears in light of all the things she didn't cry for, like the victims of Katrina. There was the first race card played before the SC primary. This has been Obama's game all along.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNrlSn7ndAA
March 26, 2008 9:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
Lets put that tears moment in contest shall we? Let's take it in context of the whole day. Keith Olbermann did:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BB4Vvgn_4k
The tears moment came on the heels of fearmongering and race baiting all in the same day!
March 26, 2008 11:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for posting that. As Olbermann attacked her for the tears that weren't there and the crying that didn't happened he played up the Obama spin that Hillary's comment about LBJ was disrespectful of MLK. More playing the race card by Obama with the media's support. As if the sexism wasn't enough. That's why Obama will never get my vote.
March 26, 2008 12:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
I can't tell from the YouTube video whether there are any bona fide tears, but I can sure hear her choking up. Also, people of many different races were affected by Katrina. Why is this remark inherently racist? To me, this seems similar to a comment another blogger here made that if Hillary Clinton had worked 1/10th as hard at fighting the Bush administration as she has fighting against Obama that this would be a completely different story. Seems to me that the sentiment was that it seems kind of insincere that she'll choke up when talking about how it's so hard to be Hillary, but not at genuine and widespread suffering by others. This isn't Kanye West.
March 27, 2008 6:14 AM | Reply | Permalink
For Hillary and her strongest supporters there was a sense of this year being 'her turn' in the vein of Republican Party presidential choices which often reflect an orderly procession of seniority. And then Obama had the audacity to upset this procession.
Let's not forget just how strong the current of inevitability surrounded Hillary was early on. When that sense was so strong, it's got to feel 'stolen' to them now.
Ironically, looking back like this now should allow us to see just how much nervousness emerging about real readiness to be the nominee (now directed at Obama) was also a factor in the collapse of Clinton's inevitability. (Her high negative ratings and potential to vitalize Republican opposition was a cause for concern that probably helped Obama win Iowa).
March 26, 2008 10:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
I think there is some truth to what your saying, but I don't think 'her turn' vein is Republican or Democrat. I think your sentiment is a stereotype that informs the progressive in you. But I don't that it is correct.
March 26, 2008 10:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
I realize that it's an Obama talking point to say that he come from nowhere and upset her inevitability, but in reality, he jumped into second place when he announced and most people expected him to win a number of primaries for a variety of reasons. The media may have tried to annoint her, but they were also claiming that Giuliani could do well in places other than the northeast and California. For a while there, the idiots were actually trying to sell a Clinton, Giuliani and Bloomberg race, but anyone with a lick of sense knew that the Pace Picante Sauce commercials had killed any chance.
I know, Obama starts every victory speech with "they said it couldn't be done", but the best I can figure, he must've heard it from an in-law because pretty much everyone knew that he was going to win at least some of the states.
March 26, 2008 10:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
For Hillary and her strongest supporters there was a sense of this year being 'her turn'
----------------------------------------------------
BS, I supported Edwards until he dropped out of the race.
March 26, 2008 11:11 AM | Reply | Permalink
That's bull. But I will concede that of all the candidates in the nomination line up she's the most experienced, prepared and convincing.
March 26, 2008 11:28 AM | Reply | Permalink
HRC neither experienced, nor prepared, nor convincing.... talk about fraud, when I opened my dictionary this morning, the illustration for the term "fraud" was a photo of HRC.
March 26, 2008 12:04 PM | Reply | Permalink