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The Clinton Trolls have Arrived
Has anyone else noticed the rise, over the past two weeks, of a new breed of Clinton supporter here on TPM?
Now I'm not talking about the staunch loyalists who've populated this site for months. Specifically, just so there is no confusion, I am not talking about longtime contributors like BevD, Destor, Billy Glad and others, who have been outspoken and appreciated voices in our online community. I know that I, for one, have been having spirited discussions (and disagreements) with Destor for the better part of two years now. While I have frequently disagreed with them, I have never questioned their sincerity, their conviction, or their enthusiasm.
But all of a sudden, out of nowhere, we have a half dozen new Clinton advocates, spouting the daily talking points of Clinton internet guru Peter Daou. I am not naming names, but if you look at their profiles you will recognize them: you see no activity before early March, followed by a frenzy of posts. They are less interested in sharing viewpoints and having an honest discussion than in berating Obama and his supporters. They seem to believe that, if they can destroy Obama's character completely and utterly, that the superdelegates will have no choice but to side with Clinton at the convention no matter what the delegate count is. They have developed a sudden expertise in Rovian tactics such as marginalizing their opponent's strengths, manipulating facts and logic in support of their cause, accusing their opponents of shortcomings that only apply to themselves, and defying reason through willful obtuseness. In short, they use all the techniques of disingenuity that I have come to despise among right wing conservatives like Limbaugh and Coulter.
Who are these people? I am torn between labeling them as paid Clinton operatives and right wing subversives. Maybe they are actually Obama supporters trying to alienate the remaining undecideds from Clinton. Maybe Allegre has turned to TPM for refuge.
In any event, by posting this I have opened myself up to attack. I will be hailed as intolerant, sexist, and quite possibly a Nazi hell-bent on squashing free speech. But speech is useless if the speakers wilfully misconstrue facts, employ arguments that they don't honestly believe, and use speech only as a weapon.
Rhetorical tools that fail to respect truth and reason are beneath contempt, regardless of the political perspectives of those who employ them.
Comments (163)
I've noticed the same thing you have. Drive-by bloggers. One of whom asked about a rumor regarding Wright and holocaust denial.
No specifics. Just putting the question out there. This is more like dropping off a rumor here at TPM and moving on to the next liberal blog site. And the next. And so on.
I was thinking about assembling a list of the drive-by'ers, but we all have better things to do.
I'm not sure they realize they leave their electronic footprint behind.
But there again, I have better things to do.
March 18, 2008 10:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Then please go do them, rather than trying to scare people by talking about 'electronic footprints'. You will have Allsburg thinking that YOU are a troll or spy.
March 19, 2008 5:32 AM | Reply | Permalink
Electronic footprints are very real, and very much like red light cameras: If you're not doing anything wrong, what do you have to worry about?
March 19, 2008 9:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
If you're not doing anything wrong, then why do you care if the Bush administration is spying on you? Afterall, you don't have anything to hide do you?
March 19, 2008 11:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
I love the 'drive-by' bloggers term. Bloggers who post rumors, then go on to the next blog to post the same rumor. Sort of the internet version of the old 'whisper campaign.'
March 19, 2008 9:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
The funny part is, that it doesn't work. The reason is that, the people suceptable to a random whisper campaign do not frequent intilectual discussion boards. :)
March 19, 2008 4:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
But speech is useless if the speakers wilfully misconstrue facts, employ arguments that they don't honestly believe, and use speech only as a weapon.
No, it's not useless.
Your readership is much greater than just those who respond to you. Your words still find targets and will be judged according to their content.
Same for the trolls. Their specious reasoning is obvious to many readers. They can talk beside you, but they can't talk over you or drown you out. You and they are both heard.
What to do? Just judge them as stupid, forgive them, and move on. The point of being a troll is not to make any particular point, but to stir up outrage among the inhabitants of a forum and have fun watching the foam. So, don't feed the trolls. Ignore them.
I will be hailed as intolerant, sexist, and quite possibly a Nazi hell-bent on squashing free speech.
Uh oh. You've Godwin'ed your own thread before it even got started. Bad move. --jzap
March 19, 2008 1:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
There are some who have been long-term TPM (and rather neutral and disinterested) readers who finally decided to break the silence and stand up to militant Barackists who decided to 'claim' this site.
March 18, 2008 10:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
Like you, MoodSwinger, who never posted a comment in your life to TPM before yesterday??
March 19, 2008 1:01 AM | Reply | Permalink
I just had to create an account to reply to this. I've read TPM for ages, but never had any reason to post on it... I like a lot of the commentary, but I find a lot of the 'discussion' to be too trollish for my tastes.
Dude... "militant Barackists"? Are we at war here? I think that the term you mean is "fellow Democrats, who will-- I hope to god-- stand shoulder to shoulder with me in November as we go at the polls to elect a Democratic president".
Because, really, you need to try not to drive people out of the tent.
March 19, 2008 6:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
It is a little disturbing. I know it's affected me... one minute I was vociferously backing other Hillary backers and the next I was like "Uh... I can't second a point like that!"
Unfortunately, the new TPM is more vulnerable to such tactics. This is a kind of perverse result of losing the much maligned (and abused) ratings system that we used to have.
One thing about those ratings... yes you'd get downrated every now and then but overall your character would prevail. Now a bunch of people that on stock boards would be called bashers and pumpers have shown up in support of both candidates.
Allsburg, I won't deny that a bunch of Hillarybots have shown up recently. But there have been Obamabots too. The new format of the site just makes everything more vulnerable to them and has made our spirited and entertaining disagreements more difficult to enjoy.
March 18, 2008 10:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
destor, I appreciate your support on this topic. You are proof positive that someone can be a provocative, vocal supporter of a candidate while still retaining your intellectual integrity.
There has never been anything "irrational" about supporting Clinton, so it's not as though I think these shills are typical Clinton supporters.
And I must admit that my pro-Obama bias may make the new breed of Obamanistas around here harder for me to spot, partly because I tend to do little more than glance at their postings without really paying much attention to them. (It's the Clintonistas that have managed to provoke me enough to notice them.) Far be it from me to deny that there are irrational extremists on both sides, but I also think that if Obama were doing more poorly in the race, more Obama wackos would come out of the woodwork.
Perhaps there's a law of presidential primary candidates to be observed here: as the chance of securing the nomination decreases, the number of irrational supporters increases. Seemed to be true of Huckabee and Ron Paul in the Republican primaries.
March 18, 2008 11:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
What I miss is the ability to see which posts on a thread are new and also the abilty to track responses to your own posts. This helped move the site from drive-by blogging into actual back and forth.
March 19, 2008 2:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
Can we have a capability to troll-rate bloggers? I'd like to throw those who are all hate and no substance off the island.
Or maybe just a unfriend list in my profile to just automatically block their posts when I am reading.
In any event, their needs to be a consequence for being all negative and off topic.
Maybe for trolls, these comments that take many minutes to appear should take many hours.
March 18, 2008 10:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
I can't speak for the long term congeniality of the site... as a poster, I am much a johnny-come-lately here. However, I have noticed that some people on here do exhibit that obtuseness of which you speak.
You can pin an issue down with sources and fact only to have an utterly moronic reply.
As I have always liked Cafferty for his cantankerous yet affable character regardless of his take - which normally is pretty good anyhow - I went to read responses to his question about whether or not people thought Hillary would do anything to win, including sacrificing the party for her own ambition.
I was astounded by the number of utterly senseless myopic defenders of Hillary on there. I just can't imagine how anyone can respect someone that tells a New Hampshire questioner-citizen that she plans to honor a pledge and then turns around and stridently does the other. How can you trust someone that tells you to your face that she wants to win before she releases information that is rightly expected? How can you respect someone who recommends someone from the other party above her same-party opponent?
But there they were - one or two lines... Obama is destroying the party. No rationale - oh - yeah playing the race card did show up on a few. But nothing like a reasoned response.
What a bunch of twits.
That reminds me - I called one of those people out on here the other day - he had posted the same thing five times over about a day and a half. He never got any play on them - so I told him I didn't think people here liked trolls and spammers.
March 18, 2008 10:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
What a bunch of twits.
Go ahead and toast President McCain you dumb ass. Bottoms up. Do you really think that any Clinton supporter could vote for your cult leader? I mean, if they wanted to join a cult they would have already done so. And hey...did you save a copy of the God Damn America sermon? I can email it to you if you want.
Since you like that sort of rhetoric, thought I'd feed you some.
Seriously. Toast McCain and thank yourselves.
March 19, 2008 1:22 AM | Reply | Permalink
Speak of the devil...
March 19, 2008 11:15 AM | Reply | Permalink
It's not just here. They're suddenly on every site. I'm not deep enough into "blog knowledge" to investigate, but it certainly seems logical that somebody's paying a bunch of people to jump on these sites and repeat the same crap over and over again.
March 18, 2008 11:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
I do not think people have to be paid. As the chances of their candidate winning grow smaller by the day they get angry and lash out. It is a natural reaction. There are also people who enjoy trolling for trollings sake and they are just getting arround to this subject. They were probably posting as creationists on science blogs yesterday.
March 19, 2008 11:11 AM | Reply | Permalink
There's a person on blogger named Hillary08 who trolls blogs and posts the same comments. On my blog, I'll get spam comments that have nothing to do with the post and are usually wrong. It's a PITA to clean up. I get mostly pro-Clinton spambots on my blog. I have one pro-Obama person who spams my blog by telling me to visit his blog. I delete his posts too. I've seen those same people posting on my friends blogs and it's obvious they go through my blogroll to spam others.
March 19, 2008 1:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
It was fairly startling in the threads on Obama's speech, a bunch of people saying the same picayune idiotic talking points over and over again, in the exact same language.
Is this supposed to convince anyone? There are some very intelligent HRC supporters on this site capable of good discourse, and then people who just spew this stuff, and spice it up with talk that sounds like it comes from Rush Limbaugh.
It would be nice to have some system of hiding posts or ignoring posters, it just doesn't serve anyone to have a conversation going on and then someone coming in and screaming today's talking point downloaded from the mother ship.
March 18, 2008 11:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
This is actually the key part - in the exact same language. This suggests that that language, those points of view, were all coming from essentially the same place.
It took me awhile to realize that language was coming from MyDD and Fox (among other places of which I am sure I am unaware, but these seem to be the most notable sources).
So either these people are being paid, or more likely, they're simply jumping on the words used by whomever is supporting their particular viewpoint, and repeating the argument, hoping that it will somehow seem cogent.
Analyzing language is really kind of interesting.. the histology of how memes move through public discourse is almost perfectly analogous to gene inheritance. Just as genes allow you to trace family history, ideas can be traced back to their original source, because usually the language of the meme doesn't change much (despite the "purple-monkey-dishwasher" effect).
March 19, 2008 12:10 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, this is definitely a committed effort on the part of Hillary bloggers. They've stopped posting diaries on Daily Kos and instead have been trolling on sites like this. I think it's a way of getting Kos to cave into their strike demands. I knew there had to be more to that strike than just them stopping their malicious attack diaries. That would be too good to be true.
March 18, 2008 11:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
This site is overwhelmed with Obama supporters. There are more intelligent Obama supporters than intelligent Clinton supporters. There are more idiotic obama supporters than idiotic Clinton supporters.
For each stupid post by a Hillary supporter I can give you a stupid post by an Obama supporter. For example you point out the stupid, is Wright a holocaust denier post. Well there was a post listing all the "unexplained" and "suspicious" deaths of Clinton associates. The rather stupid republican meme of the Clinton mafia wiping out past associates to further their rise to power.
March 18, 2008 11:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oceankat is right, Allsburg. Nice to see you posting here again, though.
March 19, 2008 8:11 AM | Reply | Permalink
You're right about that, I've winced a couple of times when I see things like that. There are times when Obama supporters are accused of using Republican Talking Points when it isn't really true, but those things are definitely Right Wing talking points and unacceptable IMO.
Both sides seem to lash out with more vitriol when frustration sets in. It comes from both sides I think.
March 19, 2008 8:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'd clarify that I've been registered on this site for years, but never participated, the technical support for my particular Mac browser sucks here, takes several attempts before my password/id gets verified, and so I'm more of a reader than poster. This election cycle is important enough for me to speak up, and I'm an Obama supporter. I wander through mostly left-leaning sites and on occasion the MSM feedback sites, and it's truly ugly out there. I might post less here on TPM and more on ABC, NYTimes, etc. because it's some 8:1 negative hateful posts out there, a lot of them are obviously race-baiting. I'm convinced there is an organized web effort against Obama. My time and effort may be needed out there in defense of what he represents more than on here. I don't really "belong" here anyway, not part of your clique.
March 18, 2008 11:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
I know of one in particular that is definately a republican troll, so I have no doubt the others with the most radical views are probably the same. So the title of the post I do not believe is correct. Marginal Player is definately Fox Noise, Billo fan. His support for Hillary is not in the least bit genuine. There are others as well so I think we have been infiltrated by the REPUBLICANS!!!!
March 18, 2008 11:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
I have been trying to point these people out every time they post. Perhaps they are not true Hillary supporters, but instead freepers and the like who want to come in here and divide the democrats. They could be the Limbaugh and Coulter followers who want people to go against Obama.
But then again, if these people were smart, they would realize that this is turning people off to Hillary. There isnt any logic to what they are doing, really, and I suppose the only way to really know would be to do some kind of tracing back to where its coming from.
If they are Hillary supporters, all I can say is that this would be just really sad.
March 19, 2008 12:23 AM | Reply | Permalink
me thinks your to wordy, to say that the Obama bots would consider voting for Hill is sheer ignorance, the so called progressives here are the same ones who decried Al Gore's Candidacy and instead helped Ole Nader defeat the Democrats in the general election. Right along with the screechy voice of Arianna from the Puffington Post.
Indeed Hypocrisy knows no boundaries where these affable idiots are concerned.
March 19, 2008 5:10 AM | Reply | Permalink
Actually, recent national polls show 14 percent of Clinton supporters would not vote for Obama come the GE while only 8 percent of Obama supporters would not vote for Clinton. The problem is coming from both sides.
Here's one from NC: http://www.wral.com/news/local/politics/story/2550631/
The percentages are much higher...26 percent of Clinton voters were "not at all likely" to vote for Obama, while only 14 percent of Obama voters are "not at all likely" to vote for Clinton. The anger and frustration in the Clinton camp is boilng over it seems.
March 19, 2008 8:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
To be clear - I voted for Gore. I did not support Nader, and was very upset with the Naderites for the damage they did. Just because you dont support Hillary for the nomination doesnt mean you are some Naderite. Silly generalization to make.
And by the way - In the GO, I will vote for Hillary.
Was that too wordy for you?
(why do these people always have to be so snarky?)
March 19, 2008 2:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Just for the record, I highly doubt that many of these posters are Clinton supporters. There may be a few, but what you're seeing is most likely a particularly nasty breed of Republican.
I suggest following a simple rule: if someone's words make you think: "Damn you, poster! If your candidate wins, I'm voting for McCain!", there is a reason for it.
Other than that, I let the post content be my guide. Amateurish troll posts tend to be either very short and contain a "valuable" link that the poster urges everyone to read, or an extremely lengthy essay that no one in their right mind would have written in response to the original post, evidence that it was copied and pasted in a number of different spots.
Harder to spot are people who have adopted a "persona" to fit into the community. Sometimes they tip their hand, like quoting Bill O'Reilly approvingly, but you sometimes end up having to take what they say at face value. Occasionally you can tell that they are repeating three or four points over and over without responding to other people's relevant posts, but at that point you're relying on basic arguing skills, not so much ferreting out "trolls" as such.
March 19, 2008 12:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
Are you saying that they are only winding us up against Obama or Clinton to get us to vote McCain, yes, you are----well, then, there might be a particularly nasty breed of democrats doing the same kind of thing, to get people to vote either Obama or Clinton. In fact now that I think on it, I've probably exchanged replies with some of them. For just this morning, on another site, I got so hot that I was going to switch to Hillary. Yes! It was one of THEM, that particularly nasty breed of democrat. Let's be honest: it is going on on both sides, full steam. As for Allsburg's warning about people whose profiles show no activity before early March, well, I never even started posting until early March---in my entire life. So I guess that makes me a suspect? In just 3 weeks I have seen things I wish I'd never seen; I didn't know that such hate even existed.
I started visiting these sites to learn, and grow, and debate, and all I got was utter hate and nastiness. What a sorry state of affairs!
March 19, 2008 5:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
Before the Ohio primary, there were a lot of astroturfers on the local blogs. It was sort of hilarious because these were people who obviously hadn't spent a lot of time on blogs. They would post these huge screeds filled with bulleted talking points, or else quote some massive anti-Obama article with a snide comment on top. On Political Wire two different people posted the same article with the same snide comment on the same thread. But the amusing thing on the local blogs was they all had handles like Jemaine256 or Billo35, like the AOL or compuserve screen names that they got in 1998 and never changed because they've never left AOL.
As for Kos, he's not caving. He said, essentially, that Hillary Clinton represents what he's fighting against (DLC, 50-plus-one strategy, lobbyists, etc) but he would have supported her had she been the nominee--until she began to continue down the road where the only way for her to win is to kneecap Obama. It was an interesting post--on Monday, I think.
March 19, 2008 1:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
So far I know the repub trolls to be:
Marginal Player
CR1992
I'm on the fence about airwon - but not by much
March 19, 2008 1:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
Ooops sorry airwon (true Hillary), I meant indiex.
March 19, 2008 1:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
mageduley,
Thanks,I am a true Hillary. I admit, that I like some of the things that Marginal has to say whether Marginal is a Republican or Democrat. Marginal spices up the language but he speaks to the fundamental weakness that many see in Obama and his supporters on this site. No need to argue about that here but I'll leave it as Marginal being a healthy contrast.
I recently came to this site and it was blatantly obvious that the Obama supporters way outnumbered the Hillary supporters. Some were reasonable and many simply made no sense. As a Hillary supporter, I had to dive in.
In the short time that I have been participating, I too have noticed more Hillary supporters. And all I have to say about that is, too bad Allsburg!
This isn't exactly a secret members only club for Obama supporters. You get the good, the bad and the ugly. In this format, the only way you improve the level of quality is to make posts that are of quality. Not by complaining about the fact that your rivals have arrived.
Funny how these discussion mirror the actual campaigns. Finger pointing, complaints about process, demonizing your rivals,etc.
March 19, 2008 11:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
The HIllary trolls went on "strike" over at Daily Kos, and have been flooding other progressive message boards since.
Democratic Underground is drowning in them.
March 19, 2008 1:28 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm not surprised, have you been over there lately? Utter one word against Obama, ask one legitimate question about him, name a little doubt you might have, do anything but fall down and worship him, and you will get absolutely fried---and hounded out. They don't believe in debate. They are militant over there. Nuts, I'd say, and driving people away from Obama.
March 19, 2008 5:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
If LauraRoslin is a shout out to BSG, you ROCK!
March 19, 2008 12:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
You guys getting just a little..Ya know... paranoid schitzo? This seems an odd blog, but made me curious. If you don't want people to come into the game, then the game should not be played in this venue. I am just trying to get my point across that neither candidate is above the political hype and so I enjoy sitting back and wondering how things get broadcast out to the world. Having read up a bit on politics, many of the issues are started from their own camps, making the other camp look like they did something underhanded. I want us dems to stop this constant bashing and when the time comes, (and yes, that time hasn't come yet for EITHER candidate) we will need to unite and make the commitment. I will do it, even if Obama wins, but I won't like it!
March 19, 2008 2:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
No, I don't think they are getting paranoid schitzo. I haven't had an account here long as I prefer to read and not post, so I lurked for a while before I felt the necessity of signing up. I liked this site because I saw it as one of the few places where both sides could have semi-reasonable discourse with each other. I have a favorite candidate but I will vote for the other in November if they win the nomination and I really disliked the other sites where it was all hate filled bashing of the other side. I've noticed the increased nasty postings here too and cringed at the thought that I'd be driven to leave this site too. Thanks for pointing out that it may be repub trolls. I prefer to believe that it is them posting the hate instead of us all forgetting that ultimately we all want the same goal - a Democrat in the White House.
March 19, 2008 3:15 AM | Reply | Permalink
Methinks there be truth in this post.
March 19, 2008 3:29 AM | Reply | Permalink
My OH MY and the blog belongs to you?And new blood scares you?why son the world is chaotic and so are blogs.
It is with perverse pleasure that I interject myself into a remorse full situation where the Obama folks are able to obfuscate with total disregard, dis- respect for the female in this race. Undoubtedly you have found all the tid bits marginalizing her something to crow about on your splintered fence and to do claw foot rooster clap at the same time.
Son! there are other sites that do the same and you on occasion visit them and carry on like a wet legged rooster.
Consider the favor returned.
I've been here two years and very rarely post,getting nauseated by the wet dreamers delight
called the Oblapie BOTS, HE has not done anything remarkable in his short tenure as a Senator.
Unless you think marginalizing the competition as he did in ILL-I-NOISE, then playing HOOVER on REZKOS wallet and or personal Valet an accomplishment,"wouldn't surprise me if you did"
whenever you marginalize Clinton in your ignorance you marginalize all women.
nuff said?
March 19, 2008 4:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
There is no reason to marginalize Hillary, nor would I care to. Her record is all it takes for me to decide between her or Obama. Not her sex, not her husband, I have judged Hillary on her record and I am not impressed. You can deride that all you want, calling me all of the names you want, and it still would not change that fact.
I do not hate Hillary, and I think she would probably make a good president. But I believe that Obama is better suited to the tasks that we will face in the near future, and I believe that with Hillary it will be politics as usual. It is time to let the past be the past, and to move forward into the future. To me, Hillary represents the past and Obama represents the future.
Obama is the better candidate, IMO. I am glad you support your candidate, but you could be a bit less strident in your tone. It does not reflect well on you or your candidate. I recognize that both sides have this problem and it is not just Hillary supporters.
March 19, 2008 5:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
Your making an assumption that "THAT KNOW" it will be politics as usuall, sorry that dosen't hold water as a leaky sieve will attest to.There is no way to predict the out come of a ripple from a stone tossed into a pond, in actuality I'M not a Hill supporter, but I will vote democratic for the candidate that represents the ability to remove from office an Illegitimate bastard and his Co-Horts (aka the puppet master Cheney)
I look way past the immediate generalities of the primarys,for instance the supreme court is sure to have a few vacancies soon and I sure as hell don't want another Roberts,Scalia and A lame, cant say the N word here "Thomas".
There's an economy that is heading due south right quick, and taking the middle class with it. There is National Security (I know a profane joke when I see It)that really needs to be addressed. Immigration needs a radical infusion of intelligent dialog. Health care has to be a primary concern, instead of the profits and care for the rich.
Its about what one can expect the candidates to select for their cabinet positions, this will make or break a president, and personally Obama dosen't have the makeup to be making the harsh decisions that will necessitate offending peoples of either the stripe of republican and democrats.
General statement of fact? no just observations from what I've seen so far, and thats a personal observation.
Politics ain't pretty nor was it intended to be.knee capping, race baiting are all part of the picture at large, its separating the Chaff from the Wheat is what makes the decision a little obtuse
March 19, 2008 6:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
P.S I do this form free,and on my own time.
And I'm actually a GORE supporter and Was strongly endorsing Edwards, where Oblapie was copying and or mimicking what Edwards proposed.
G
R
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A
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S
P
E
A
K
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But so far thats it
March 19, 2008 5:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
Man Nightslider, if I didnt know any better, I'd swear you were a Republican troll. What with all of your CAPS and misspellings. And all of the slang terms generally used on Red State or Freeper.com.
But what would really prove that you arent a troll is if you actually attempted to communicate in a way that wasnt so hostile. Talk about the issues. Explain to us, in a reasonable way, why you support Hillary Clinton. I am open-minded. Tell me, without getting bogged down in snarkiness, why you like her. Specifically as to her policies, what she offers. That is what we should be talking about on these sites. Then maybe I can reasonably explain to you why I like Obama. And maybe we can do this without judgement and/or malice? Thats what I dont see happening here.
Anything less is trolling.
I await your explanation. Why Hillary for President?
March 19, 2008 2:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
24 hours later and no response. Just what I thought. Another troll.
March 20, 2008 4:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
This sounds paranoid to me, it really does. There are clinton supporters who feel the same way, I'e seen them on other sites saying how they are being persecuted by Obama supporters. Personally, the most vicious posters I have ever seen are, or say they are, Obama supporters. They are so hard with hate you it's a wonder they don't just snap. I don't understand any of it on either side, what ever happened to polite but lively debate? And constructive criticism?
But I do also think that some people are paranoid, talking of plants and spies---this is not normal. It sounds like the old Soviet Union or something.
March 19, 2008 5:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
You just gotta learn to fight fire with fire,you don't walk into bar-room brawl with your knickers on backwards, the pen is just as mighty as the sword, only the pen reaches farther than the sword.
March 19, 2008 5:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
Come on, tell me honestly that you didn't get an email from the Hillary Clinton Yahoo Group which directed the DailyKos strike, one suggesting other blogs for Team Allegre to inhabit and take over the way they did MyDD.
March 19, 2008 9:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
I get my news from many sources, and the last thing I will ever do is believe some blog post from someone I don't know. There are good Clinton and Obama supporters, and there are the rabid Clinton and Obama supporters. Then you have the wingnuts who only wish to stir the pot for their own enjoyment/goals.
Blog commentary is like wandering around a party where people are talking in different groups, and I hear what they are saying as I am passing by. The last thing I am going to do is buy something because I heard it in passing.
You have to expect that the rabid supporters and wingnuts are going to do everything they can to make life miserable for those they take aim at. If I see some screed, I usually pass on it as it is not worth my time arguing with a moron. That, and there is usually someone more than willing to point out what an idiot they are.
If a post is substantiative or humorous, I will read it and may comment on it. Other than that, the rest is just brown noise.
Independent voter and Obama supporter here, and I have nothing to sell. Because Obama does that good enough on his own. I come here for information, but I prefer to raise hell at Balloon Juice. The animals over there are more amusing, and John loves them as much as I do. ;)
March 19, 2008 5:10 AM | Reply | Permalink
Look at this thread!!! Look at5 what we are talking about! The issues? There is something wrong---on every site. And I don't think it's trolls and plants and spies. There might be some, yes, but not near as many as people are implying. Can you imagine what Obama and Clinton and McCain would make of all this? And what if people in other countries read all the crap on all the sites: the threats, the insults, the intimidation, I could just die. I am in the UK and some friends of mine have looked at 3 or 4 sites and decided Americans are sickos.
March 19, 2008 5:17 AM | Reply | Permalink
We had the same problem at the MoveOn forum in 2004. The ones coming over from freerepublic were very organized. They would post the talking point for the day over there and the url for the MoveOn forum. Mostly Kerry bashing. As someone said about my posts, an ignore function would be nice to have! I think they change their nicks, though, so that might not do any good.
March 19, 2008 7:48 AM | Reply | Permalink
what's the difference between a Clinton troll and an Obama troll?
March 19, 2008 8:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
There isn't much difference. They both use ALL CAPS and lots of exclamation points!!!!
March 19, 2008 9:51 AM | Reply | Permalink
Electronic footprints are very real, and very much like red light cameras: If you're not doing anything wrong, what do you have to worry about?
March 19, 2008 9:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm confused - was that hilarious snark or just a very precise example of what the diarist is talking about?
"Toast President McCain" - there's a phrase that ought to identify trolls regardless of which candidate they support.
March 19, 2008 9:32 AM | Reply | Permalink
Just for the record, I am a "long time listener, first time caller." (Works much better in radio).
At any rate, I am a supporter of Sen. Clinton, although I just recently started posting.
The reason for my late entry has more to do with personal things (ie, finally getting a home computer; finally figuring out how 'to post' something) and less to do with some sort of nefarious plot to marginalize Sen. Obama.
Although I would like to mention that, since recently 'jumping on the blogging bandwagon,' my interest in supporting Sen. Clinton strengthens by the day.
I used to read the DailyKos, and can no longer (at least until there is a Democratic Nominee). I used to read the HuffingonPost, and can no longer. TPM is the last of the liberal blog sites that remains somewhat neutral (thank you,m Josh!). But the reader posts, like the aforementioned sites and many more which have not been named, have been overwhelming in favor of Sen. Obama and against Sen. Clinton.
For me, I finally hit a breaking point. If you read my previous posts, you will see that I take little if any aim towards Sen. Obama. I just intened to DEFEND Sen. Clinton from false or over-the-top posts.
I would be a fool to think I could change an Obama supporters mind to Clinton.
March 19, 2008 9:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
Ombuds...Ignore the Trolls.
Don't let a few morons color your opinion of the candidate they support. Clearly Obama and Clinton both have idiots on their side. Your gripe seems to be that more Obama supporters tend to be "on the blogging bandwagon" as you put it. I think it is true that young people, and so called "liberal elites" are drawn toward Obama and away from Mrs. Clinton, and those are exactly the type of people who dominate sites like Kos, TPM, etc.
Pass over the idiot posts, and reply to the ones that bring up actual points for discussion. I began posting because I love a good debate. Some day I may actually say something smart enough to kick off a discussion....Until then, I will continue to learn more from these sites in 15 mins then I could in a day of watching the MSM. Let the debate continue!
Ignore the Trolls.
March 19, 2008 10:12 AM | Reply | Permalink
Good post. I'm an Obama supporter, but my major concern is that the dialogue stay on some sort of even keel so the Party will be able to come together Whoever wins. I mostly stick with TPM (rather than Kos or HuffPo) because I like the blog/news and a core group of the commentors. The trolls are becoming a huge problem that will choke out real discussion. Comments don't go up right away, which makes me think the IT boys have SOME sort of moderation running. I wonder if they could create a 'bozo file' of obvious trolls to filter out.
March 19, 2008 11:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
uh-oh. I think I MAY BE AN OBAMA TROLL!!!!!!!
March 19, 2008 9:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
Maybe we could start a group???
Trolls Anonymous?
A place for trolls to speak of their rage and the childhoods that drove them to inflicting that on others.
March 19, 2008 10:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
Dorn,
Nice to see you again!
I find Dorn76 to be one of the more passionate Obama supporters who is compassionate to Hillary supporters.
But more important, dorn, is that 2 to 1 bet about Pennsylvania that I took you up on! Never got any word back as to whether or not you penciled it in your book!
March 19, 2008 9:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
You're on buddy!
March 19, 2008 10:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
The ledger is pretty thin. Glad to have some action. 2-1 for 19% or better, is that what I offered? Or was I even crazier back in those heady days?
March 19, 2008 10:28 AM | Reply | Permalink
Brian,
You had it 3 to 1 if over 19%, and 2-1 if 10-19%
I predicted a 14% win.
You don't have to take it, but I place my bet within 20 minutes of your. (I can't find the orignial post ANYWHERE. Sigh)
March 19, 2008 10:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, there obviously have been trolls messing with us -- and I don't think it's fair to claim they're all Clinton supporters.
They are merely here to stir up trouble. Likely freelance twits who have gotten the message that as long as Obama and Clinton fight and damage themselves, the Republicans have a chance to keep the White House.
I started commenting after this rating system disappeared. Did it work well? At all? I've always admired Plastic.com's "karma" system, where users earn points by posting, by getting rated up by other users, or they loose points by getting rated down. To prevent abuse you loose a point when you give a point, loose two points when you rate someone down ... it's complicated. But TPM folks should look into that.
March 19, 2008 10:54 AM | Reply | Permalink
As I stated, I frequented this site for years, much before it did an extraordinary job in muckraking the Foley thing and much before it was discovered and than flooded by Obamajugend cyberthugs.
And by the way, this has nothing to do with the other candidate, I could not care less for her, I simply have low tolerance for opression , intimidation, and personality cults.
March 19, 2008 10:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
Uh-huh. Labeling Obama supporters with a Nazi-esque term is not trollish thuggery, no sir.
Here we have troll tactic #198: Use the most extreme terms you can while still claiming that you're the victim.
March 19, 2008 11:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
Not to mention vindicating Godwin's Law yet again.
March 19, 2008 12:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Obamajugend cyberthugs"
Is this supposed to be intelligent discourse? It comes right out of the same playbook as "soreloserman", "democraps", "rethuglicans" and the rest. What is this? 7th grade?
Like I have said before, this kind of thing never used to be on this site. This site is turning into the intellectual equivalent of talking politics while youre drinking at a bar. Not alot of quality insight, just ramblings and speaking (or hitting the send button) before thinking.
So sad.
March 19, 2008 2:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
You're right....just couldnt remember the terms. It's on!
March 19, 2008 10:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
I think most of you just want to be part of a group that agrees with everything each of you says. I found this site yesterday and started posting. I find most Obama supporters to be especially thin skinned. Most always start out any discussions of a criticism of Obama with a race-retort rather than any logical discussion. Or that your all geniuses and the rest of us that don't agree are obviously morons or at worst being called racists.
Or you have a obama supporter quoting Jack (i love obama) Cafferty. One would automatically say that this question "do you think Hillary would do anything to win" a sexist question. It has never been asked of one the Men in the race. Of course, she will do anything. She wants to be President. Do you suppose its good to have a Candidate that really doesn't care one way or another? Oh yeah, we got that one. He's GWB.
Most of you need to calm down and see the real world. It isn't this site that is for sure. That is the absurdity now of Obama continuing. How do you think its going to play out when Republicans are involved? We will be slaughtered. Straight away. McGovernesque.
The last thing that we all need to do is slam the Party for setting this thing up to fail as they did. The primaries should have been winner take all. Howard knew before this started that there was a chance for a close nomination process. That process isn't going to help us win. Just the opposite. Its the largest mistake we have made as a party since allowing Teddy to beat up on Pres. Carter thereby allowing Reagan to win. I wish, as Democrats, that we would learn our lesson one day.
March 19, 2008 11:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
I say that there is an increase in bot-attacks, but I reject the conspiracy theories. TPM's bot-level has fluctuated up and down since the primary began. I recall a lot of intensity between Iowa and S. Carolina. I suggest that the current rash of hillbots are simply energized by Clinton's March 4th performance and the increased intensity of her campaign. They were very quiet in late Feb. when she was down. I even posted a comment at that time wondering where all the hillbots had gone (and I recall that TheraP agreed with me).
Anyway, it will all clear up once the nomination happens. Then it will be awfully dull around here, and we'll miss those little bots.
March 19, 2008 11:25 AM | Reply | Permalink
If it gets really dull we can play rock, paper, scissors to pass the time...
Ready?
1, 2, 3...ROCK!
March 19, 2008 11:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
ROCK!!
dang, tied.
There's a moral in here somewhere :)
March 19, 2008 12:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
Good ole Rock...nothing ever beats Rock!!
March 19, 2008 1:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think that I finally understand the Mike Gravel ad.
March 19, 2008 1:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Allsburg's Law: A TPM Blog is over when its readers resort to Rochambeau.
March 19, 2008 2:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
So now you are the voice of reason? And the only "Thick skinned" adult in the room?
You said:
"That is the absurdity now of Obama continuing."
Imagine the guy with the pledged delegate lead, popular vote lead, winner of the majority of States, and polling equal or better in a matchup with McCain than Mrs. Clinton, continuing....He should know his place! The audacity of the man!
These are the rules we adults have to play by.
March 19, 2008 11:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
Nonsense! Obama should just step aside! He's got no better a chance of winning than the 2002 Lakers!
March 19, 2008 9:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
Speaking of wasting bloggers' time and valuable blogspace (did I just coin a word?), all of this narcissistic back and forth on "trolls" and other minutiae using arcane, known-only-to-nerds, buzzwords is part of what relegates bloggers to "the radical fringe" in the minds of many.
I'm old enough and smart enough to recognize BS when I see it or hear it. I also am aware that simple assertion is the cheapest form of argument...so when I see "Obama/Clinton will destroy the party." absent any supporting references,data, or logic....I can dismiss that assertion in a millisecond with no interest whatsoever as to what category the originator belongs to or what their motivations might be.
I come here to be stimulated and to, hopefully, occasionally stimulate.
Give it a rest!
March 19, 2008 12:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
1, 2, 3...PAPER!
You lose! Try again?
March 19, 2008 12:00 PM | Reply | Permalink