At some point I'll write a full diary, but young Americans (and a lot of old ones) have a funny idea of race in America, including DF's slams against me for my "pull yourselves up by your bootstraps" philosophy.

But for example, in the late 1800's, black literacy was around 80%. It dropped after 1910, in part because of the heavy black migration to the north and the cities, in part of the lack of lack of correlation between literacy and gaining good jobs during tough economic times, perhaps other reasons.

But by 1940, black literacy was back up to 80%. That was before any effective Civil Rights effort, before effective access to legal recourse, before desegregation, before busing.

In short, black people managed to educate themselves rather well without government assistance. Yet to hear Rev. Wright and a good many people on this blog, it's only government that's holding black people back. MLK undoubtedly would have been ashamed at the "Can't Do" attitude that so many have, that responsibility lies in the hands of somebody else, especially with the ease of the Internet and the relatively low cost of books and computers. Sometimes having a perspective on history instead of just youthful exuberance is a good thing (not that young people can't also explore history).

Gandhi seemed to be one of MLK's models. He started the "Quit India" movement at 72 and led India to independence at 78. Thurgood Marshall was also a hero, implementing much of the NAACP's success through the courts during the 1940's and 1950's. He served on the Supreme Court until he was 85. Franklin Roosevelt created Social Security at 53 and led us into World War II a month before he turned 60. Three of the four people most responsible for the Truman Doctrine that gave us the Marshall Plan were well into their 60's (the fourth was 43), probably our greatest foreign policy initiative ever. Gorbachev was 54 when he came to power.

Oh, and Hitler was only 36 when he wrote Mein Kampf.

I suspected someone might bring up Gandhi, or the achievements of those who were older when they did great things. My point wasn't to diminish the idea that wisdom can come with age, only to point out that it's not a guarantee. It seems it's become an assumption that the old know more than the young.

In 1776, Thomas Paine wrote that the argument for the superiority of one race over the other was illogical. "One of the strongest natural proofs of the folly of hereditary right in kinds, is, that nature disapproves it, otherwise she would not so frequently turn it into ridicule, by giving mankind an ass for a lion.."

In other words, pointing out that there are many examples of white men as fools, thereby disproving the superiority of any one race. I would say that the same argument could be made in reference to age. Age can provide wisdom, but in some cases it does not. And refuting the ideas of the young simply because of their years on this planet is foolish. I am more than happy to learn from those who have been around longer than I, but not when the conversation is based on asserting their greater wisdom rather than the actual transfer of meaning, learning, experience, stories, or facts. That's all I'm saying.

And I don't disagree with you about the bootstraps thing entirely. My great-great-grandfather came here from Ireland in his 20s. He moved to Johnstown and worked in the steel mills. In 1889, the greatest flood America has ever seen hit Johnstown. His house was apparently literally on the banks of the river, and it was wiped away. I have no idea how he survived, or what he did afterward. What I do know is that after 3000 people were killed in the flood, as the debris was still burning live bodies, the people of Johnstown rolled up their sleeves and got to work. Red Cross arrived later, and that was actually the first major catastrophe to test Barton's new organization. The train tracks had been washed out and it took days for any supplies or aid to make it into town. Reporters literally climbed days over the mountains just to get into town to get the story. But the people of Johnstown didn't wait for any of that. They started organizing morgues, distributing what clothes and rations they had, cataloguing the dead and treating the wounded. I wonder sometimes if the same would happen today. My great-great grandfather lived till he was 94, saw yet another flood devastate Johnstown after that, saw the townspeople pull together and make things better for themselves again.

Where I think we disagree is that I don't think 100% of the responsibility falls on the individuals. Ok, seriously, hear me out. While I think that on individual merits we can rise above any faults of the "system," does that mean we should not try to improve the system itself? For instance, education is a big issue for me. I have worked as a preschool teacher for years, have a young child, and am currently going back to school to get a master's in education. In all honesty though, I could probably count on two hands the number of truly great teachers I had throughout all of school before college. On my own, I made an effort to learn what I did not in the classroom: I read, I talked, I learned. But I still think we should try to make our classrooms better. And this is not a topic that relates only to race or inner-city classrooms. I have interned in classrooms in my own community, an upper-class community with a majority of white people. The class I worked it had little to no "diversity". There are still problems. There is no time for art, history, or music. Almost all of the time is spent on reading and math, important things no doubt, but not things I believe should be taught to the point of replacing the other subjects. Of course, parents can and should be teaching these subjects out of the classroom as well. But if children are spending as much of their lives in schools as they are out of them, should we not make the effort to teach them all that we can? Or rather, to encourage them to learn all that they can? But it is actually government that has created this problem, by creating standards of testing based on comparing students to each other rather than tracking individual progress, by focusing solely on math and literacy, and now they will soon be adding science. Teachers have no choice but to follow these rules or they face losing their jobs. And I have seen some of the most creative teachers try their best to still fit in the other subjects, but sometimes it's just not possible. So I do think that these are problems that need to be addressed by the government.

Perhaps what is frustrating for some is that they have spent their entire lives "pulling themselves up by the bootstraps" only to see government interfere. My mother has worked harder than anyone I know. She never asks for help, never complains, just keeps working. And she has met success. In 9 years she wants to retire. Her health is not great, her medical bills are high, but she's saved enough that she thinks she'll be able to retire in comfort. She has made an effort to plan for retirement in such a way so as to take into account the possibility that Social Security won't be there, or won't be enough. Much of her retirement funds are now being eaten away because of the state of the economy. Will the market correct itself? Sure, probably. Will it do so soon enough for her? I don't know. I won't pretend to fully understand the root of the economic problems we are now experiencing, but it seems to me that a lack of regulation over banks that were screwing people on mortgages is one of them. I'll also admit that some people were foolish in agreeing to them in the first place, but because of all this, it is not just those who signed onto subprime mortgages who are feeling the crunch, but regular people as well. My parents have paid their mortgages regularly and constantly for years, continue to work extremely hard to do so, and really don't complain much. But they too are feeling the effect of the stupidity of both the banks and those who signed onto those mortgages in the first place. Their equity in the home they've owned for years is incredibly low, and there's really not much they can do about it. I have confidence that the market will likely right itself, but the bigger unknown is when.

Anyway, no, it's not ONLY government that holds us back. Sometimes we do an even better job of doing that. But I tend to think it's one of those grey areas...

"YES. Do I hope your right and that 58-65% of the population comes out to vote? Damn Right......All that is being said is reality usually is something differnt."

Yes, this is true, and unfortunate. Looking at the numbers of voters under 30 who come out is actually quite embarrassing. I do hope that the increased turnout we've seen in the primaries will hold out for the general as well, but I recognize why people are skeptical about that. I'll be pissed at my peers as well if they don't get out there, and I'll do everything I can to make sure they do. I was more making the point though that the young shouldn't be dismissed in conversations of politics, etc. I also appreciate hearing political perspective from those who have been around longer than I - for instance, I had a good discussion about why McGovern ended up unsuccessful. What I resent is when any disagreement is instantly dismissed as young foolishness without actually listening to our side of it. I find it nullifies the whole point of dialogue to dismiss the other side before really listening to it.

Should have said so first, but Louis torched me with that inane (or do I mean insane?) comment,
but these were a wonderful posts Hil. If you are an example of the younger generation being inspired by Obama's message, then things in the future are brighter than I sometimes fear.