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Texas Dems to Hillary: No deal. Also: Put up or shut up.

I just got the following email from Boyd Ritchie, Texas Democratic Chairman.  It is clearly in response to Clinton's attempt to suppress the caucus results (emphasis mine):




Below is a statement by Texas Democratic Chairman Boyd Richie regarding the Delegate Selection Process:


The Texas Democratic Party and local Democratic Party organizations around our state are working to turn the enormous opportunity created by the record Democratic turnout experienced on March 4th into a positive outcome for Texas Democrats this fall and in 2010.  We are proud of both our Presidential candidates who helped create that turnout.  We ask now that the campaigns work with us rather than become an impediment to this extraordinary opportunity to build our party.


On March 4th, our Democratic precinct conventions experienced record turnout of roughly one million precinct convention attendees, a ten-fold increase from the previous high attendance mark.  As expected in any record turnout involving hundreds of thousands of people, there were reports of problems caused by long lines and crowded facilities.  These problems are not unique to Texas.  Similar problems, in proportionately similar numbers, occurred in pure caucus states like Iowa and Nevada.


The overwhelming majority of problems reported in Texas do not affect the legitimacy of delegate allocation.  It is important to remember that the precinct conventions are just the first of three steps where delegates and alternates are selected.  "Final results" will not be determined until June 6-7 at the Texas Democratic State convention.  And at each convention step, Texas Democratic Party rules provide a credentials process to address problems and provide an avenue to register complaints and make formal challenges


For that reason, the Texas Democratic Party will not do as suggested by one campaign and circumvent Party rules to set up an unnecessary, ad hoc "verification" process that could effectively disqualify delegates selected at their precinct conventions after the fact.  The Party has never stated any intention to set up a verification process of this nature because Party rules already provide for "verification" through our credentials process.  Candidates who wish to disqualify delegates must pursue formal challenges based on evidence filed appropriately in accordance with our party's rules.


The Texas Democratic Party plans to conduct our district and county conventions on March 29 and our June State Convention in accordance with procedures set forth in Texas law and party rules. Both campaigns have the opportunity and responsibility to do their jobs by documenting evidence, filing challenges if warranted, and turning out their delegates in a system that rewards such an effort when final delegate results are determined at the State Convention in June.


Comments (55)

Shorter TX Dem party to Clinton: We are not amused by your shenanigans.

Yeah, you can really tell how irritated they are with the whole stunt.

It's never wise to mess with TX!

It is great to know that somewhere the rules do count and will be followed!

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I am in Texas and an Obama precinct captain in Houston. I can bet you that Hillary will lose more delegates Texas.

Obama will win Texas by more than the 3 delegates reported by the MSM.

I'm so proud of Boyd Ritchie!

This tactic is not going to endear Texas Democrats to Sen. Clinton. Any Democrat who lives in Texas knows how important it is to grow the party--that priority goes beyond this freakin' election.

It really pisses me off that the Clinton campaign is questioning the legitimacy of the Texas process. And it may very well drive more delegates away from her.

Yes how dare anyone question Texas, land of infallibility!

Yes. Impugn the entire state. Why not? It's relevant here, isn't it?

Can you make comments that aren't insulting and pissy, destor23?

Only if it's praising Hillary Clinton...

can't wait until this thing is over, and we can all be friends.

Those that dismiss Texas are missing the point: we NEED this state to turn Blue. It used to be strong blue, and I think it can be so again.

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Honest question...in the TX primary, 3 million people voted by ballot and Clinton won by 3-4 points. For the caucuses, about 1 million showed and gave Obama a +12 or some such?

Which process do you believe best represents "the will of the people"?

I'm not sure, but I think the reason why Texas has a hybrid sort of primary is to accomplish more than one measure. The ballot is a good way to measure "the will of the people" and the caucus is a good way to measure the intensity of support for the available candidates. It's also a way to reward participation--precincts that had the highest caucus participation in the last primary are given more delegates going forward. So it's kind of a party-building thing, too.

I don't know why other states use caucuses. Do you know why your state's Democratic Party holds a caucus?

Maybe the close contest this year will encourage some more uniform processes, nation-wide. (?) Also, this situation may shine light on any needed reforms of the caucus process.

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'Measuring intensity' and allocating votes based on that 'intensity' sounds grossly unfair to me. (violins~~) A mother with a sick child has more than one 'intensity'. A caucus excludes her...and many others.

About 3 million people voted by ballot so I'm assuming the 1 million that voted in the caucus also voted by ballot.

Are some animals more equal than others?

A mother with a sick child has more than one 'intensity'. A caucus excludes her...and many others.

You may have a point here, but in fairness to the Texas Democratic Party, you can caucus in a short period of time--to have your support count, you need only prove your eligibility and fill in your voter information and choice of candidate on a form--then you're free to leave. So conceivably, a person could show up at their precinct just before closing, sign up for the caucus, and be done in less than 30 minutes. Or, as in my case, I voted early (at my convenience) and then made arrangements to be at the caucus on election night.

I know some people do face hardship, but the caucus time in Texas was after 7:15 pm and required a minimum time commitment. Many of us stayed for the entirety of the caucus convention (about 3 hrs), but it wasn't necessary just to record support (and therefore a portion of the pledged delegates) for one of the candidates.

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In all fairness, the show up, sign in, and leave strategy still can require a considerable time commitment.

Sign-in can't start until the last voter is done - in my precinct that didn't happen until well after eight. At that point there were about a thousand people in line to get signed in, and even in the best of circumstances that would take awhile. I didn't sign in until 9:30. At that point I had to leave (school night, way past bedtimes).

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It took our precinct more than an hour to get people signed up. Our caucus didn't end until 11PM.

The Democratic Party in the State of Texas has selected the process that they feel is most effective in selecting the best candidate. If the people of Texas have a problem with the method the state party selected, it is incumbent upon them to gather popular support for another method. What is the deal with Hillary Clinton's supporters being unable to respect the rules in place at the time of an election once the results are in? She has certainly shown her leadership on that one. And you guys are following along in lock step. I guess folks get the candidate they deserve.

The hybrid system may also be to counteract those voters who vote, for example, based on someone's name (there was a Sam Houston on the ballot in Austin), or based on a whim that is the result of, say, a last minute 3am phone call scare ad. In other words, it provides an additional measure of those people who have thought about their vote and believe in their vote enough to come back and ratify that vote.

That was very well said.

It is not just that cacuses measure intensity of support. They measure a candidates ability to lead a large complex organization through a byzatine set of tasks. There is nothing in our political process that measures leadership ablility better.

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Historical note: Texas has long been a caucus state, electing delegates to the county conventions at precinct conventions, to the state convention at the county conventions, and, in presidential election years, to the national convention at the state convention. It was in 1980 that the Presidential Primary was added, for no other reason than that the Legislature (at least the Republicans and similarly inclined Democrats) believed a primary would help John Connally, who was a candidate that year for the Republican nomination. The Texas Democratic Party, however, had no interest in giving up the caucuses, beloved to all of the yellow dog persuasion, so we ended up with this bizarre primary-plus-caucuses compromise.

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Don't worry. The DNC knows darn well which process really indicates the will of the people, and their main concern is choosing the candidate who can win in November. Delegate counts this close won't matter, and this is why Clinton continues to campaign and win. She knows she's got the most important states and votes. Even if Florida and Michigan don't count for delegates, you'd better believe that those votes will count heavily in the minds of those DNC Super-delegates whose job it is to make sure a democrat wins the White House. And that will be Clinton.

Obama supporters can count delegates and dream, but reality will happen, and the polls are showing Clinton ahead once again, with Obama in the hotseat over some of his judgments.

there are certainly a portion of the delegates who will agree with you that they should choose whomever they think is the best candidate. The others think that they should go with the pledged delegate count. Of those who think that they should go with the most electable candidate roughly half will think that candidate is Obama. That leaves her with half of less than all when she will need 60 or 70 prcent of all of them to take the nomination after the voting is done. She is toast unless Obama implodes.

I don't really want to burst your bubble, Fremont, but I think the idea that the superdelegates are leaning to your candidate is a severe case of wishful thinking.

Obama has gained 47 superdelegates since super Tuesday. Whereas Clinton has gained zero, and has in fact lost 7 since then.
see here

Also, in the last week, I've heard two super-delegates for Clinton (newly promoted Gov Patterson and former presidential candidate George McGovern) state that they are Hillary supporters and then hastily clarify that they committed to Hillary before they knew Obama was going to run.

Which process do you believe best represents "the will of the people"?

The one that doesn't allow Limbaugh to tamper with the results by having thousands of Republicans vote to throw the election to a candidate they don't plan to vote for again in November.

Or did you miss that story?

I live in Texas. Really red West Texas. When one goes to a democratic primary, one signs in. Among other things, one affirms that they are either a democrat who is on the roles as a registered democrat, or not on any roles. Then the caucus is held, and votes are allocated. Then the newly elected precinct chairman (usually the same person as had been) has the duty of checking every person who signed the "pledge" against the county registered voter roles to see that that person is 1. a legally registered voter, and 2. not a registered republican. IF the signor is on the county roles as a registered republican, then, by party rules, that person's vote is tossed out. In my precinct meeting, among the attendees was the county republican chairman, and his wife. They signed in for Hillary. This is one reason it takes so long. And, as for "voting twice" ... one doesn't, one votes in the open election, and then, if one so wishes to become a delegate to the county convention, one goes to the caucus, and signs in for whomever they prefer. Then the fun begins. I never ceased to be amazed at all the experts on Texas who have never set foot in the state.

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You have some strange rules in red West Texas. Here in Central Texas we ask for whichever ballot we want when we go to vote. You can pick either one. We don't register as a Democrat or a Republican either. The rule is that if you want to participate in the Democratic caucus, you must have voted in the Democratic Primary. No other rules pertain.

Yeah, because God knows, they only got 2.8 million people out for the primary, so they really need caucuses to get people more enthusiastic, even if it does mean some people's votes count more. If some people want to sit at home and watch TV, screw 'em I say. We've got a party to build.

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Caucuses are a scam. Catch this...

...to set up an unnecessary, ad hoc "verification" process that could effectively disqualify delegates selected at their precinct conventions after the fact.

What does "after the fact" mean? "Selected" by whom "after what fact"?

FTR, I live in a caucus state. After our caucus (that they were unprepared to deal with), it turns out that 3 republicans were selected as delegates and a few other unqualified caucusers were disqualified also. I wonder who determines who replaces those delegates after the fact?

What does "after the fact" mean? "Selected" by whom "after what fact"?

What he is saying is that there are already rules in place for determining and challenging the eligibility of delegates. But the Clinton campaign is calling for the formation of an ad-hoc process with new criteria for determining eligibility of the delegates who were selected during the caucus held on March 4. For example, I was one of 35 delegates selected by the 296 people who caucused for Obama at my precinct. When I was selected, my eligibility had already been verified at that step. When I attend the March 29 county convention, my eligibility will again be verified, according to the Texas Democratic Party's rules. If I am selected to be a delegate at the state convention, my eligibility will again be verified.

I don't understand what you're questioning, I guess. Nor do I understand yor assertion that caucuses are a scam. Why do you say they're a scam?

Crap. I got my numbers wrong. I am one of 25 delegates selected by the 193 people who caucused for Obama.

Also, when we caucused, we had to prove that we had voted in the Democratic ballot election before we were allowed to caucus. This process weeded out the potential for mischief-making by Republicans.

Which state do you live in?

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Ondioline makes the one and only relevant point here. The rules were set. Play by the rules. Don't whine.

"The Democratic Party in the State of Texas has selected the process that they feel is most effective in selecting the best candidate. If the people of Texas have a problem with the method the state party selected, it is incumbent upon them to gather popular support for another method."

If you have a problem with the rules, take it up with the rules committee. Don't whine about the rules, after the results come out, because you didn't win.

Having said that, I do agree that having a 2-step is seriously retarded.

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On the question of "after the fact". I think the intended meaning of the original sentence was that the ad-hoc verification process is being proposed AFTER THE FACT, not that delegates were selected AFTER THE FACT. Oh, those misplaced modifiers!

Most of the Republicans/Limbaugh Democrats voted in the Texas primary in contrast to the caucuses. As much as 1/4 of Hillary's votes came from them. No wonder Hillary wants to discredit the Texas caucuses.

Obama and Hillary split the crossover vote according to exit polls.

Forgive my paranoia, but with respect to idiot, I think this is excellent news for Hillary!!, insofar as it is exactly the result preferred by the Clintons. That is, it allows them to both keep this issue 'unresolved' until the committee meeting and, assuming a decision by the committee to uphold the rules, to raise an unholy stink AFTER the meeting, claiming that she had once again been victimized by a sexist plot/ disenfranchisement/whatever, thus poisoning the well. That, and she'll continue to claim a win in Florida, along with the popular vote, all the delegates, etc.

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Good for Texas. It is time to REALLY take the gloves off in PA. No one would have preferred this, but it is clear the Clintons are willing to drag the Party and the Country yet again down along their self destructive path.

I have actually come to believe they are quite a maladjusted pair surrounded by a bizarre menagerie of creatures -- sycophants and opportunists -- mostly who feed the Clinton narcissism. Thes are the Inconvenient Trutrhs of the Clinton Political Partnership that Hillary bases her fantasy of Experience on::

I'm going to be brutally frank.
Somalia.
The First World Trade Center Bombing.
The Cole.
These people were a DISASTER waiting to happen. Sorry Bill and Hill. Whatever happened to "The buck stops HERE."???? Any down chain commander would have been Court Martial-ed for Deriliction of Duty.

Their so called economic prowess, built on NAFTA that traded Good JOBS for cheap consumer goods over the short term, a dot-com bubble that dot-bombed, the deregulation of Banks Insurance Companies and Brokerage houses-- IT WAS THE GOD DAMN CLINTONS WHO SIGNED GRAHAM LEACH BLILEY in 1999 that set up the deregulated "Financial Supermarkets" that will have REAL people eating REAL, Rotten scraps of food before long. They are a F-ING DISASTER who did NOTHING but run from the GOP from the time they got in. They ran against welfare mothers caved to the Pharmaceutical Companies, Left their ownPArty in tatters after eight years.

How DARE THEY NOT RELEASE THEIR TAX RETURNS and turn around and SMEAR OBAMA.

If Superdelegates don't step in now and endorse Obama en bloc there will be hell to pay for years to come as a result.

Anybody in PA knows that Rendell is working with GOP bosses to flood the Primary in a backroom deal, is also using State Employess on the clock to work fro Hillary and is intimidating State workers with denial of promotions poor evaluations etc.

OUT! Let us drive them OUT NOW! These NArcissistic Hacks are not only terrible for the Party there a Disaster to the Country and our Real Standing in the World. It is our Position in the World that Counts. The Clintons believe the Masses are Asses, that Perception is reality.

Return to the top of this comment for a dose of Reality.


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Oh and to the Chucklehead who suggests caucuses are a scam... Wha-? No complainey from the Clintons back in 1992 or '96...

Sorry but we Democrats don't give a whole lot of Delegates in Crawford Texas or Kennebunkport Maine.

Jeebus, the Clintonistas think they
can just Bu))shi# their way back into the White House.

Oh yeh- the country is just dying for another heapin helpin' of that stinky...LOL.

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million people voted by ballot and Clinton won by 3-4 points. For the caucuses, about 1 million showed and gave Obama a +12

Fairness is not measured in the margin of victory. Weren't there about 3 times as many delegates in the primary as in the caucas? If the Clinton campaign was as organized as the Obama campaign she would have won them both. It wasn't. She didn't. Too bad.

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Hillary won the Texas primary by a four-delegate margin, while Barack Obama won the caucuses by more than that, though the numbers aren't known yet with total certainty.

That's Texas for you. Some people get to vote twice. It's why that "will-of-the-people" delusion doesn't sell.

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Having spent most of the day of the primary at my daughter's elementary school which is a polling place, I'd like to suggest we reconsider the reliability of exit polls as they relate to the cross-over vote. Watching voter after voter *not* stop to participate in the exit poll, one becomes quite aware of the self-selectivity of this process. While many cross-over voters of the more ego-centric variety most likely enjoyed the exit poll, I would venture that a significant percentage of cross-over voters chose not to participate.

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I watched on television, where one white woman was "carded" to be sure she was supposed to be there, while a number of other voters were not carded and were allowed to vote without identification. WHen she brought that to the person in charge, on camera, the person in charge made the person with the camera turn it off. Is this the "play by the rules" scenario that everyone on this blog is talking about? Play by the Obama rules? Or the Texas rules? WHich rules are you referring to? Can't be the democratic rules, so whose rules?

Well the point of Ritchie's statement is not to deny that there were occassional irregularities, but to say that in such cases, the voters/candidates need to file formal complaints for each incident, supported by evidence--instead of making grandstanding global generalizations about the opposing campaign. It sounds like your "white woman" (who may well have been an Obama supporter; I am) has evidence to support her complaint.

At my caucus, despite the fact that the Clinton supporters were greatly outnumbered, the people running the show took great pains to make sure that one Clinton supporter was at every table and that an equal number of Clinton and Obama supporters counted the signatures.

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Yep, we had Clinton and Obama reps at each table too.

Anyone who didn't have the official proof of having voted in the Dem primary was directed to one table that had "the book" so that they wouldn't hold up the other lines. Every participant had their credentials checked in view of reps from both campaigns. Obama and Clinton supporters signed up on separate (numbered) sheets to make counting easier (our attendance was about a thousand).


Bush, notwithstanding ... For the first time in my life, I am proud of Texas.

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OK, I have just one question:

CNN reports that just under 44,000 people caucused. Will someone explain to me how that 44,000 turns into 1,000,000?

My friends in Texas (Obama supporters) say the 1,000,000 is "unfortunately for Obama" very inaccurate, and that the actual numbers are less than 100,000, as seen in the CNN results.

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/primaries/results/state/#TX

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Read the footnotes on that CNN page, kcpoo.

The ~44,000 figure is the number of reported pledged delegates that will be going to the county conventions. The number of actual precinct convention participants is most likely much, much higher. For instance, my precinct was assigned 90 or so delegates to the county convention. A thousand people showed up at the precinct meeting. But only the 90 county delegates would be counted in the CNN table.

Of course, the reporting of pledged delegate counts was voluntary, and with only 41% of the precincts having called in their totals, the 44,000 figure is only a fraction of the real pledged delegate total. If that seems like a *lot* of delegates, keep in mind that Texas has a lot of counties. (Some urban areas meet by State Senatorial District instead of county, but however you slice it, it's a lot of delegates.)

We'll know more at the end of the month, when the county conventions are held.

HRC always wants to change the rules in the middle of the game. You knew the rules of the TX primary going in, so don't bitch about it now....the rules might not be great, but they are the rules.

Same for MI and FL, both HRC and Obama agreed to not campaign in those states and that the delegates would not count, but now she cries about it when she's losing. I wonder if she would want the delegates to be seated if she lost those states???

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OR perhaps she was listening to the citizens of those two states and wants ALL of the citizens of the United States of America to have the opportunity to vote and to get their voices heard. The republicans had more to do with the Florida voting fiasco than Hillary did, and Michigan, I just don't know what they were thinking..

According to the press, for what that's worth, The Clintons did not know the rules in TX until late into the game. It seemed a good example at the time of how badly their campaign was being run. So who do you blame if you don't know the rules? It looks like they're blaming the state of TX.

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Most of the PEOPLE in Texas didn't know the rules, so she got an official clarification before the primary so there would not be an issue with another state of disenfranchised voters..

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As Ritchie said in his email, we won't know the accurate number of delegates from the precinct conventions until the county/senate district conventions on March 29, when delegates clear the credentials committees.

The convention (caucus) may have slighted the poor mom with a sick child, but also probably weeded out most of the "Dittoheads for Hillary" voters as well.

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And let's not forget all of the second shift workers AND the shut ins AND the people who travel for a living AND the list can go on and on...

Gettex, that's what bugged me too. I've spent much of the past couple of months wondering what the heck all the bungling was about in Clinton's campaign. Ignoring caucus states, ignoring "red" states, ignoring small states, virtually ignoring states with high black voter turnout, making fun of Obama's ability to turn out the vote--it was completely confusing to me and just strengthened my support of Obama. I (stuck here in Utah) was particularly offended by the cold shoulder she gave the Rocky Mountain and inter-mountain states, which frankly can't afford primaries when populations are strung out sometimes a full day's drive between towns. Conservative Mormons actually seem to support Obama over McCain, but McCain over Clinton. So go ahead, Democratic party, throw our electors away. Just try to get these states back if Hillary runs against McCain.

Whatever you think of the Texas two-step, or the propriety of caucuses in general, Clinton plainly didn't mind New Hampshire's caucus process. Thus, no matter what's in her mind now, her protestations make her look like a sore loser instead of a principled supporter of purely democratic process.

Anyhow, I never thought I'd say this, but hooray for Texas Dems for standing their ground and following their own rules. Unlike a certain national party I've heard of...

By "get those states back" I don't mean get Democrats back;. I meant get the Obama Republicans and independants back. We battered western red-state Democrats are so traumatized that most of us will vote for anyone who even calls themselves a Democrat. Don't get me started on what that means...

If you read all the comments written by "indiex", it appears to be a troll. That is, it only has one job to do in this thread: to argue that caucuses are unfair AS SUCH.

We can see why poor Mrs. Clinton's support is so often concentrated among the less well-educated. It's hard to convince people who have any knowledge of American history that an instance of DIRECT democracy - a caucus or town meeting - is anti-democratic.

A sick mother can't go caucus. Well, what does she do when she votes? She could tell a friend of hers to go speak for her. Here's something that's not written on the talking point sheet the Clownton campaign gave the troll: people at caucuses often know each other. They don't just vote; they interact.

The TDP caucus tradition is mentioned in this thread. That is interesting, and would cause any reasonable person to reconsider the argument that a caucus is always a bad thing.

But trolls don't reconsider. They have a job to do.

Our job is not to feed them.

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