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November Winner and THE SPEECH

Yesterday I wrote a post asking why many Clinton voters have not joined Obama. The post looked at it from an angle of a supporter.

Today, I want to explain why Sen. Obama needs Clinton voters if he is serious about winning.

The reverse, and my main point, is that Obama will fail in November if he is the nominee.

1. The success of Obama is a result of four factors:
- personal ambition of the candidate (as it should be with any politician)
- his talent for inspirational, exciting rhetorc
- the single biggest mistake of the Clinton campaign - loss of Iowa
- complete convergence between Obama campaign and the movement of "netroots".

This last point is critical because it dictated the political positioning of Obama until now. It's now impossible that it will not dictate that positioning in the general election.

2. Netroots began as grass-roots movement to defend Bill Clinton during the impeachment of the 1990s (with moveon.org). The philosophy of the netroots translated into specific form of activism:
- agressive "on the ground" organizing (voter registration and turnout)
- growing sophistication (vs Rep's micro-targeting, direct mail, phone banks)
- dependence on supporters via the energy of the message (starting with Howard Dean)

The netroots is a loose "amalgamation" movement that started out at the liberal and far-left wings of the Democratic party. Their political identity is based exclusively on the opposition to the Iraq war, they don't have a well-known position on any other issue. The Obama campaign has been a mirror image of the netroots movement, identified exclusively with Iraq and the uplifting energy of his rhetoric.

3. Bill Clinton and Al Gore were the last two Dems to run in the GE without the support of the netroots.

Netroots became the force in the party after the Florida recount. They backed Howard Dean, then Kerry and finally drove the Democrats to power in the mid-term elections in 2006.

With that victory, the Netroots gave Nancy Pelosi her current position. The cynics (or the thinkers - choose your own label) will point to this when discussing Pelosi's semi-open endorsement of Obama.

This campaign sequence established the belief that netroots now have the sophistication and machinery to win the 2008 elections.

This myth is wrong.

The prize for the mid-term victory does not belong to the netroots - we won because the Republicans abandoned Bush. We won because they were weak, not because the netroots finally "figured it out". 

4. The Kerry campaign and the mid-term campaign were driven by the same formula used by Obama/netroots now:
- organizing voter registration and driving voter turnout
- energy and excitement of the rhetoric
- opposition to the Iraq war

This is great and wonderful, but it misses the vital point: the overwhelming majority of Americans are issue voters. They pick and choose issues that are important to them and look for candidates that embody their views on these issues.

For Kerry, the netroots delivered unprecendented mobilization. It either matched or nearly matched the Republicans in the range of database, phone banks, etc. Democrats never mobilized in this way before. Kerry lead Bush in the polls from May through August of 2004. That year was a referendum on the incumbent presidency of George Bush and the Iraq war.

And yet, among working class white voters ($50,000 or less) Kerry lost to Bush by 24 points (38 to 62%). Working class voters accounted for 52% of the total GE vote. Kerry lost the Latino vote. He made poor showing with Catholics, women, etc. Kerry lost the election by a bigger margin than Gore lost his, despite the unprecedented mobilization.

The fact that Sen. Clinton has won working class, Latinos, Catholics and Jewish voters should tell us one thing loud and clear - these voters do not see Barack Obama as "their candidate" who represents their particular issues and aspirations.

If Barack Obama wins the nomination, these voters again become the "swing" vote they were for Gore and Kerry. If he couldn't win them from Clinton, he will not win them from McCain.

5. The reason Clinton has a better chance to win is simple: she campaigns for the issue voters described above to build the political majority that is the key to the win in November.

She learned this during the Bill Clinton campaigns in 1992 and 1994. In 1992, the Party was split 40/60 between liberals and working class. Unlike Republicans, we had little "on-the-ground" presence.

It was next to impossible for him to win. Yet, Bill Clinton was the first and the last Democrat since FDR to have two-term presidency (discounting JFK/Johnson).

November will be won and lost on the political majority coalition. It will be helped by the netroots organizing, but it will not be decided by it.

6. When both parties settle on their nominees, the campaign will turn into the fight for the issue voters. Understaning this fact is the main reason the Republicans won most presidential elections since WWII.

Republicans present themselves as uniquely American freedom lovers, who made this country great. They are the tough guy, who allows issue voters to trust them on security. They have the appeal of the proud self-reliance and rugged individualism. They despise "safety nets". They are the tough, trustworthy freedom fighters. For those who can appreciate the metaphor, they are the Marlboro Man. They have always won because of national security and the patriotism of white males.

It's true that Republicans are in retreat. But they will repackage and rally behind John McCain. He is a "maverick" - he will easily distance himself from Bush's failures and take credit for his achievement. He will be that American hero, freedom fighter, tough guy you can trust. John McCain will be the "new and improved" Republican, self-reliant, rugged individualist you can have a beer with.

This is why both Obama and Clinton must be running the 3 am ad - because they are an African American and a woman! Commander in Chief is the tried and proven asset of Republicans, which they used to undermine economic issues every single time, Dems must at the very least neutralize it, or they will sink like Kerry. 

Republicans' other block is religious traditionalists, almost 45% of their base. These voters are driven by anti-liberalism, law, moral values. Neither Clinton or Obama will switch this block (baggage vs liberalism).

And there are voters that care about personal prosperity and economy. This will be the largest voter block to be pursuaded. Sen. Clinton has a strong advantage with these voters (fairly of unfarily - again for partisans to argue), as her primary results show.

Again, I repeat my premise that since Obama has not convinced these voters in the primaries they will be a swing vote up for grabs, as they were with Kerry.

This is the reason a Democratic nominee has to build the political majority of issue voters. For all his talk, there is zero evidence Obama will be able to achieve either the "new" majority or the traditional democratic majority (except for the ever-changing polls). The speech he gave today in connection with Rev Wright will be used to paint him as a civil rights candidate, and he can kiss good-bye to any idea of swtiching Republicans. And this is the reason Barack Obama will fail in November.

He will not survive the picture Republicans will paint. They will show him as a left-wing liberal, overeducated, flag-disrespecting, pampered blue stater with an exotic background and a racist pastor. They will paint him as weak on security and will question his patriotism. Long on rhetoric and short on substance. Obama will fail in November in exactly the same way as John Kerry did.

Note: I tried to make this as "non-partisan" as I can. To all Obama and Clinton - let's make this a calm and reasoned debate, not the endless and mind-numbing rehashing of talking points (Read the book! First Lady experience! etc). If there was anything offensive to Obama supporters - it was unintended.


Comments (92)

You call them issue voters, but anybody needing a 3am phone call ad is really a clueless voter. If your scenario comes true I believe the only solution is that America must continue it's decline until it falls far enough for a greater majority to recognize the need for change. But, I suspect you are wrong and that after 7 years of Bush and a recession enough eyes will be open and that Obama will win in November.

The problem with your point of view is this. November will NOT be a referendum on Bush. He's not running. We had a referendum on Bush in 2004 and he won. America is a predominantly conservate country, like it or not.

Thanks for pointing out the problem with my view, but I think the speck is in your own eye. I'm fairly certain the referendum will continue, as it did in 2006 (do you remember that?). The dems have and will continue to associate McCain with continuing Bush's failed legacy. Kerry and Obama are not the same candidate so it's a weak argument anyway.

As far as America being a predominantly conservate country it seems like it's pretty split down the middle. But, true conservatives are starting to recognize that this group of republicans do not represent them.

I believe the referendum is over for a simple reason that McCain is the nominee. The Republicans will distance him from Bush. That's true reason behind Ann Coulter "I will campaign for Hillary". McCain will run on his maverick image of an outsider.

You are right that the Dems will try to frame him as Bush 2.0, as well they should. But they will only succeed inasmuch as McCain fails to frame himself as a reformer, outside, etc, so I wouldn't count on it.

Republicans win because their candidates convince voters that they are great, strong, powerful leaders, not intellectuals.

And as far as conservatism goes, it was 2:1 in 2004, yes they are labels, but they are what they are.

McCain's free ride on the maverick / outsider persona will come to an end. Sure, there will always be a portion of our population that will be enthralled by the politics of fear. Hillary's 3am ad was a sad attempt to appeal to some of these voters, but it seems to have convinced you that these voters might vote for her over McCain. I find that laughable. What's next you want her to promote tax cuts for the rich and attack gays? She'll do no better than Obama amongst those voters and will do a lot worse with the voters who really care about the issues.

Are you interested in discussing this or in sniping about this?

I honestly did not mean to offend. But, I truly find the basis for your post to be way off base. You believe Hillary will be more electable because she attempted to join the politics of fear with a righfully ridiculed 3am ad. Seems you see her vote for war as a strength...against John "Iraq" McCain. I don't see it. I also don't see her performing better than Obama on the economy.

CNN Poll today says "all three presidential candidates get high marks from voters on the issue of the economy -- roughly two-thirds of those surveyed say each of the candidates would do a good job handling the issue."

If as you say McCain is successful in maintaining his maverick persona, than he will be able to pin her as being part of the lobbyists and insiders. I'm still wondering what suprises are in her tax returns as well that might hurt her in this area.

I'm sorry but I think you misunderstand me.

1. She ran the 3am ad in pre-empting the typical Republican issue of national security. Because she is a woman, she needs to neutralize it even more than Kerry (hero! vet!) had to. Kerry failed. No McCain voter will switch to her for national security. They just won't see security as her weakness. That's why I think Obama needs to come up with his own version of the 3 am ad.

2. McCain will use his maverick image to frame the debate on change. He will campaign on the change towards fiscal responsibility (Obama, the Big Spender!!), lower taxes, etc. As we know, fiscal responsibility is as anti-Bush as you can be. His maverick image will be used to campaign for law and order and whatever else.

3. I truly believe he will try, once again, to find a common enemy. He will try, once again, to turn this to national security. Iran, anything that comes up. They need an enemy. That's why Clinton was so smart to go so early against the only real issue that can truly sink her.

I do understand you, but disagree. Hillary was not smart to mimic the republican style and pretend strength where she is weak. The 3am ad was an act of desperation in her race with Obama to appeal to a specific segment of TX voters.

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What is it you are expecting to see in her tax returns? That she has money? They ALL have money! They couldn't be in this if they didn't have money. Obama has money too. I'd be willing to bet that they all have a lot more money that any of us. So what?

Arianna Huffington wrote about this yesterday, snippet below. I don't know that there is anything negative. But, she cannot pretend to have been vetted until we see them.

"The Clintons have obviously done very well during the Bush years -- well enough that she was able to loan her campaign $5 million at a critical moment. Is it really Ken Starr-like to want to know where that money came from? Or to ask for a list of the donors who have contributed $500 million to her husband's library? Or to ask what her policy as president would be regarding the transparency of huge donations from foreign interests to her husband's charitable fund (see the $31.3 million donation and additional $100 million pledge to Bill Clinton's foundation after he helped a Canadian mining mogul secure a massive uranium deal with Kazakhstan)?"

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Great post. I agree totally with your points, which is why the sniping by Obama/Clinton fans bothers me so much.

Ok.
I believe your description of netroots is lacking. You say, "Their political identity is based exclusively on the opposition to the Iraq war, they don't have a well-known position on any other issue."
This is an extremely narrow view of the concept of netroots. It makes it seem as if the whole idea of netroots is some online anti-war group of people. But in reality, it is simply another form of political participation. Arguably, it began with more liberal voices, but there is certainly no small number of right-wing blogs. Netroots doesn't have any one specific position on anything, for it is the collection of all of our voices, in disagreement over just about everything. In addition, you fail to take into account one major online change since the 2004 election: YouTube. I have been telling my parents this since the beginning of this election. YouTube changes everything (Macaca, anyone?) It magnifies the smallest of mistakes because they can be endlessly repeated and it allows people to share the positive.

Then you say: "The prize for the mid-term victory does not belong to the netroots - we won because the Republicans abandoned Bush. We won because they were weak, not because the netroots finally "figured it out".
On this, you're right overall. But let's face it, the 2006 congressional elections did not have anywhere near the level of involvement or excitement around it as this presidential primary does.

Thirdly, you say the success of the Kerry campaign depended on three things, one of them: "energy and excitement of the rhetoric." I was for Kerry, and he is a good man, but one thing his rhetoric is not is energetic and exciting.

And finally, your vital point, that the overwhelming majority of voters are issues voters? Unfortunately, while that probably should be true, it's not. We do of course, have one-issue voters. People whose only issue is abortion will vote Republican no matter who the candidate is, just as people whose only issue is ending the war will vote Democrat, no matter who the candidate is. In fact, an overwhelming majority of voters don't know the exact details of their candidate's platforms, the details of their records. While I think that is starting to shift now with the increasing use of the Internet as a political tool, there are ALOT of people in this country who make their choices based on the candidates as displayed in the media, rather than researching on their own.

This is precisely the reason why the fear ads work. Fear is the most powerful force, for it overrules any logic and reason. We react to fear, we don't think it through.

Also, I might point out that the logic that says that because the so called "traditional Democratic majority" is voting for Clinton, that they will continue to do so in the general. There's simply no evidence to support that claim. If they are in fact "issues" voters, who for instance, are most worried about the economy, then traditional thought would imply that they would be voting Democrat. But that's not necessarily the case.

Thanks for your great comment. I agree with you about the "fear tactics". Republicans will always need an enemy because nothing else unites them quite as powerful as that.

But I disagree on issue voters. American issues breakdown very easily into
A)moral values,
B)foreighn policy/national security
C)economy
D)fiscal policy

When it comes to elections, most voters list these buckets in the order of priority. Their individual aspirations can take any form inside each bucket. Republicans have been successful because they packaged more of these issues togehter then Democrats.

And of course they are very successfull, as always, to turn national security into an overriding issue.

One more point on netroots. The Republican netroots are driven by the disciplined ideology of their party. The Democratic netroots, as you pointed out, are not. It's as if they somehow stumbled into the Big Tent. Because they have no defined and united political positions except for Iraq, they effectiveness is limited. You can call this a rebel without a cause.

This is why both Obama and Clinton must be running the 3 am ad

The 3am ad is the sort of ad that McCain will run against Obama. If Hillary somehow gets the super-delegates to tip the nomination in her favor, he'll use the ad against Hillary. It works for him either way.

It just makes no sense for Democrats to try to use fearmongering against the Republicans. It's a novel idea, I'll give you that, turning their own tactics against them. But fearmongering favors the most hawkish, and although Hillary is far too hawkish for my tastes, McCain is much more of a hawk. It simply won't work.

Hillary's use of the ad only made sense as an attack on Obama, in the same vein as her comment that McCain had crossed the threshold of experience and Obama had not. It's an argument she can't win in the general election. In fact, it so clearly wasn't an attempt to make an argument in her favor that her team was completely unprepared to explain how the argument worked in her favor, and none of the examples they've come up with since then would last a millisecond in comparison to the examples McCain could put up against them.

Leave the fearmongering to the Republicans.

This is why both Obama and Clinton must be running the 3 am ad

The 3am ad is the sort of ad that McCain will run against Obama. If Hillary somehow gets the super-delegates to tip the nomination in her favor, he'll use the ad against Hillary. It works for him either way.

It just makes no sense for Democrats to try to use fearmongering against the Republicans. It's a novel idea, I'll give you that, turning their own tactics against them. But fearmongering favors the most hawkish, and although Hillary is far too hawkish for my tastes, McCain is much more of a hawk. It simply won't work.

Hillary's use of the ad only made sense as an attack on Obama, in the same vein as her comment that McCain had crossed the threshold of experience and Obama had not. It's an argument she can't win in the general election. In fact, it so clearly wasn't an attempt to make an argument in her favor that her team was completely unprepared to explain how the argument worked in her favor, and none of the examples they've come up with since then would last a millisecond in comparison to the examples McCain could put up against them.

Leave the fearmongering to the Republicans.

Sorry, I disagree with you. You cannot win the election unless you neutralize the commander in chief advantage Republicans had for decades. Nothing unites the Republican party more than having a common enemy. Nothing will stop Republicans from trying to create that enemy.

Nonsense. You don't win an election by allowing the Republicans to frame the questions, then trying your best to fit within their frame.

Just look at how well the 3am commercial, with McCain's face in it instead of Hillary, would work against Hillary. Then he runs a clip of her claiming that her tea in Belfast was an important part of the peace process, followed by the local paper coverage of it -- the key event according to them was that she admired a nice teapot so much that they gave it to her as a gift. It's like a bad joke.

The bottom line is that you don't win elections by letting the opponent frame the questions, and that's what you're conceding here without a fight.

"Nonsense. You don't win an election by allowing the Republicans to frame the questions, then trying your best to fit within their frame."

I think you are exactly right. The problem is that both Republicans and Democrats are going to be framing the questions at the same time. Both of them have their traditional perceptions.

So what Clinton is doing is the pre-emptive framing of the issue that drove Democrats into the ground before.

The reason Obama should join Clinton asap in doing the same.

Yet how will she avoid the same stigma? She, too, voted for the war before voting against it. Check her voting record in early 2007. Clinton's support for the war mirrors public opinion polls. She finally felt it was safe, at the height of public distaste for the war in Iraq, to contest continued funding. Do you think that the GOP won't skewer her for this? How will she avoid "I voted for the war before I voted against it"?

Your premise seems to be that she can somehow claim the national security mantle from McCain. Good luck. She's got about as much chance of doing this as she does beating McCain on experience.

Great thought but not really my premise. My premise is that most things in politics are based on perceptions created as a result of framing the issue. Clinton is a woman with baggage running against the POW and American hero. National Security is by default a weakness for a democrat. It's a double weakness for a woman or an african american. By taking initiative and trying to convince voters that she will be strong on national security, she at least minimizes the potential of that attack when used against her. At best, she neutralizes McCain, so she can focus on economy.

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My sense is that the only voters who she is convincing she's strong on national security are the voters who already would vote for her anyway. The core of Obama's supporters believe judgement trumps experience and a major reason they don't support her is not only her support for the war and her vote for the AUMF, but her speech in favor of the AUMF--that one was the knife in our backs. Granted, she's not the only Democrat who failed us, and many of us were scared too and might've done the same, but she's the one on the ballots. Republicans won't pick her over McCain on national security, and Obama supporters(issues voters, by the way--we are issues voters too) don't trust her judgement in large enough numbers to hand her the election.

In which country on what planet have you seen this happen or is this just what you want to happen? I'm getting a very truthy feeling here. Seems like you're looking all of this up in your gut.

You wrote:

National Security is by default a weakness for a democrat. It's a double weakness for a woman or an african american.

On what basis is this statement made?

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She, too, voted for the war before voting against it. Check her voting record in early 2007. Clinton's support for the war mirrors public opinion polls.
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Exactly. You think the average person is going to punish her for following the same course they did. I disagree. That vote for the war is not as significant an issue for the general public as it is for the left.

Uhh.. you do remember John Kerry, don't you?

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You think Kerry lost because he voted for the war? I don't. I think he lost because his Viet Nam service was effectively discredited because he was unwilling to fight back against the smear. The average white man swing voter doesn't like weak presidents. He was viewed as an arrogant elitist wimp. I know for a lot of the left Obama's speech is a big deal but I don't think it'll score him much with the great unwashed masses. His most receptive crowd for that argument is the primary voters and nearly half didn't buy it. What makes you think it'll sell better in the GE? It'll sell much worse.

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Great analysis. It is very useful to reflect about the Kerry disaster.

Yes, I agree, that the Democratic nominee must be able to unify the Democrats, because McCain will be able to unify all the Republicans and to reach out to other national security voters. To counter McCain, the Democratic nominee must be able to unify the tradional Democratic voters who vote for kitchen table issues (or lunch box issues, as some now say). The wild card will be Iraq. If McCain sticks with Bush on Iraq and the economy, he call be beaten if the Deomcratic coalition is able to come together.

The thing that worries me is whether the anger that is now being expressed by several groups within the Democratic coaliton (and as is often expressed here on TPM) will divide us once again.
I wonder if this anger will: 1. disrupt the convention; 2. prevent unification around the best candidate for President; and 3, pave the way to another defeat.

Thanks for your dispassionate and clear-eyed analysis. Let us hope for the best.

It's great you mention McCain and Iraq, something I should have spent more time on. I think McCain will try everything he can to create a national security debate and keep it front and center. I think their biggest weakness will be the economy. That's why they are trying like crazy to neutralize it, dropping interest rates, infusing cash, anything they can. If economy remains the dominant issue, they will have a problem. Maybe someone like Romney, with cred, will be used to deal with it. And if Obama is the nominee, he might have an equal problem with it.

Lalo35adm,

I like the way you talk!

Thank you! We're all so caught up in the marketing of our candidates, it won't hurt to try and look at things from a different angle. I keep reminding myself to be skeptical of Clinton talking points, even though I'm her firm supporter.

If Obama is the nominee, it will interesting to see Obama and McCain slug it out for the Catholic vote.

Yes. I think our biggest question now is whether we want to nominate someone or win the November elections. But it seems my posts are too academic, they keep falling off the radar :-)

I think everyone is busy praising Obama's speech. Like you suggest, I think that this issue will not go away for Obama.

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There's always a minority of people who push the posts that favor their candidate. You're tacking against the wind. That makes it difficult.

I would hardly call your posts "academic". You make blanket statements that has very little bearing in reality and instead of backing them up, you make new statements or repeat yourself a new way. That's not academic at all.

What I see here is a Clinton supporter who has made up several scenarios and determined that Clinton would be the best fit.

I am so surprised.

It's hard to take this seriously, when you're pretty much asking us to largely ignore Clinton's words and scant record and just listen to you because you said so. By all means, you're free to feel as you do, but some kind of reality in this post would have made it almost worthwhile.

So what Clinton is doing is the pre-emptive framing of the issue that drove Democrats into the ground before.

That makes absolutely no sense. In the 3am ad she's not doing any "pre-emptive" framing. She's not doing any framing of her own at all. She's adopting the Republican frame, because it's a good frame for bashing Obama.

The fact that it would be an equally good frame for McCain to use in bashing Hillary herself ought to be as clear an indication as you could possibly need that she's done nothing but adopt the Republican frame.

She did the same when she talked about McCain having "crossed the threshold" of experience, and Obama had not. Because by any comparison to McCain, Hillary doesn't even come close. One of her key examples was an event that the local papers summarized the next day by focusing on her admiration for a really nice teapot. Hillary was quoted as saying that the teapot kept the tea nice and hot. Seriously. And in her autobiography, the event shows up but not with any significance attached to it beyond the social/photo-op aspects of it, not a word about how it might have had anything at all to do with the peace process.


If you want re-framing, Obama is the one who has done the only re-framing of this issue. He's re-framed it in terms of judgment being crucial. Hillary can't make that argument. Obama can. On the Iraq war, Hillary is McCain-Lite.

rabbitsmorgasbord,

you guys both have examples of re-framing.

Hillary takes initiative and re-frames the national security issue from a Republican face with a Democratic face. The thinking being that the Republicans should not be allowed to monopolize the issue.

Obama re-frames the issue by changing the metric from experience to judgement.

It remains to be seen which is more effective.

Can you live with that interpretation, without having to argue about the definition of the word re-frame?

Two points:

1) What historical precedent makes you think she can win on the basis of out-Republicaning the Republicans? Why would the average voter ever become convinced that she surpasses John McCain on national security? Why would the average voter ever become convinced that she has him beat on experience, especially with respect for foreign policy and military affairs?

2) What makes you think she'll be able to do this and maintain support from the anti-war left (and now significant anti-war center)?

You and Lalo35adm both seem to be forwarding a very bizarre notion of "grabbing the frame" before McCain does. This is entirely counter-intuitive. Do you have any reason that you believe this will work or do you simply wish it would? Do you not see how this is like letting your opponent not only name the terms of engagement, but also showing up on the battlefield early and loudly announcing your presence?

She did the same when she talked about McCain having "crossed the threshold" of experience, and Obama had not.

Just to be clear, by "the same" here I mean she adopted the Republican framing of the issue completely, not because it was helpful to her -- it wasn't helpful to her in the slightest -- but because the Republican framing was effective at attacking Obama. The fact that it would be equally effective against Hillary (or even more effective, just think about a series of "teapot" ads using the relevant photos from that photo-op and the teapot admiration quotes from the local papers, in contrast to McCains real experience) shows clearly what the intent was behind adopting the Republican frame.

Again, Obama is the only one who has re-framed the commander-in-chief question, by re-framing it in terms of judgment rather than just years of experience. McCain wins the years of experience argument hands down, but he's severely lacking in sound judgment.

We talk put our hands over our hears and pretend we can't hear each other, but it doesn't change the larger point.

I reposted this here as it seems to be a more appropriate placement in the thread.


rabbitsmorgasbord,

you guys both have examples of re-framing.

Hillary takes initiative and re-frames the national security issue from a Republican face with a Democratic face. The thinking being that the Republicans should not be allowed to monopolize the issue.

Obama re-frames the issue by changing the metric from experience to judgement.

It remains to be seen which is more effective.

Can you live with that interpretation, without having to argue about the definition of the word re-frame?

Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah,

Well, we'll see, won't we?

We will, of course.

One of the problems with your argument is this:
"If he couldn't win them from Clinton, he will not win them from McCain." Voting in a primary is not an indication of the voting in the GE.
Your first point (the factors for Obama's success)is also very slanted, just a repetition of Hillary's talking points.
Also, Bill Clinton only won in '92 because Ross Perot siphoned off the Republican vote.

Hi Chester:

What's the problem exactly with my argument, let's discuss?

Regarding the Obama success as the talking point, I got my information from the netroots. Can you point to the Hillary talking points, I never heard about that.

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with all due respect, when listing your references you need to be more specific than "the netroots," which, as have been identified in this post and comments, could be Obama's people, Clinton's people, or the cellar-dwellers at Little Green Footballs.

While voting in a primary may not be a fail safe measure of the voting in th GE, it can be an indication of a candidate's strength and weakness. A demographic look at where the candidate's strength and weakness exists should not be brushed off so lightly.

I think it's a fairly good indication of what will happen in the GE for two reasons:

- Obama was unable to get these voters to identify with him. If he were, he would have won the nomination by now, justly so.

- Working class voters can certainly vote because of loyalty to Democratic ideology. That would be the best case scenario. The history shows us, however, that they vote for the candidate who manages to convince them. Reagan, Clinton, Bush, just to name three. Not Kerry.

Ouch! Kerry still hurts!

Obama was unable to get these voters to identify with him. If he were, he would have won the nomination by now, justly so.

This is completely ad hoc nonsense. What's your justification for this?

The results of the primary so far?

See this TPM post by Hilary if you think any Democrat won't be able to beat McCain (if he's actually the candidate in November)

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/03/and-another-john-mccain-error.php
And another John McCain error slips past...
By Hilary - March 18, 2008, 6:58P

McCain doesn't even understand the most basic religious alignments in Iran/Iraq, and this is his issue. This is the fellow Clinton approved as ready to be commander-in-chief. Add ignorance about Iraq to his ignorance about the economy, factor in his age, his explosive temper, and his entanglements with lobbyists, and you have a Republican candidate who is unelectable, whomever he's up against.

In fact, please go over and recommend Hilary's excellent post - it was only on the front page for milliseconds.

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/03/and-another-john-mccain-error.php
And another John McCain error slips past...
By Hilary - March 18, 2008, 6:58P

You are right.

But would the majority of voters care about the details of religious alignments in Iran/Iraq?

All he would have to say is this: if we leave Iraq, then Al-Qaeda will take over and form a base of new attacks against America. The standard fear buttons will be pressed, that's all he wants.

People may not have cared initially, when they thought the Iraq war would be a a $10 billion war (as Wolfowitz claimed, to be paid for with Iraqi oil money). Now that people realize that's a $3 trillion war and now that they have friends and relatives who have been killed or wounded there, yes, I think they will care. I think Obama will raise the level of public discourse in this election, and I think voters will be far more engaged than when they elected Bush.

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I have to disagree on the 3 a.m. ad. I don't see that Senator Clinton re-framed the debate at all. She simply painted her face into the pre-framed portrait of McCain. Obama re-framed the discussion by saying judgement trumps experience. Clinton's assertion is the reverse, that experience is key, but she can't win the experience argument in November.

The first rule of debate, law, and politics is to fit the discussion around your strength. By playing national security, she fit the discussion around her opponent's strength, should she get the nomination. She stacked the deck against her in the long term for the sake of a short-term gain. There is no way to successfully argue national security experience with a guy who grew up in a military family, served in Vietnam, was shot down, tortured as a POW, and then came back to train military pilots. Short of McCain channeling Stockdale, his experience on national security trumps everyone else's.

So what do you do? You hit him where he can't hit back(metaphorically of course--we all know you never gut-check a Navy man. I saw the Guardian). You hit him on his foreign policy judgement. And if you can't credibly do that, you shift the discussion away from military foreign policy and towards other fights. Go for the economy--he voted for the tax cuts. Link him to Bush and duct-tape them together. Hell, if you prefer the down-and-dirty, go after his personal marital failings in his past, or his age or health, or whatever. But trying to out-experience McCain on national security is not a good long-term strategy. Everybody knows what happened when Mike Dukakis hopped on that tank.

"The first rule of debate, law, and politics is to fit the discussion around your strength."

Strength is a key word. I think the reason we disagree is because of how we see the end result of the 3 am ad.

It's silly to expect Clinton to switch McCain voters based on national security. However, with the 3 am ad, she has enhanced her overall toughness reputation with an angle on national security.

You are totally right about trying to switch the debate to something else. But it's not going to be us talking to ourselves. Everything imaginable and unimaginable will be done to keep national security at the top of the agenda.

Lalo, I disagree with a lot of what you've said. Maybe I'll write again, but let me start with this:

"Americans are issue voters." If I understand this assertion, I think it's kind of the opposite of the truth: Americans are emotion voters. Putting aside hard-core partisans - who will vote for their party pretty much regardless - Americans will vote for the candidate they like and trust the most. Nothing is more common than candidates with whom most of the country disagreed at the start of the campaign winning anyway. The strong politician sets the agenda.

I'm sorry to be so low-brow on this, but it seems to me all the fancy analysis ignores the central role of the candidate. Ronald Reagan was way too conservative to win the 1980 election - until he started running. Al Gore had an absolute lock on the 2000 election - and was beaten by an inexperienced nincompoop. I remember when John Kerry won Iowa and my girlfriend, a staunch Democrat, said, "Oh God, we'll never win with that stiff." And she was right. He was swift-boated, yes, but the real problem was that he was defenseless against it because he hadn't gained the trust and affection of enough voters.

So to say that Barack Obama can't win because he won't get the votes of this or that demographic simply ignores the dynamic nature of an election and the man's abilities as a politician. It also ignores the voter enthusiasm factor. I believe that Obama is a very much better politican than Clinton - meaning he has a greater ability to build a winning coalition. (You write as if Hillary has a guaranteed, ready-to-go coalition already, but I don't see why.) I also believe that if it's Obama-McCain the enthusiasm edge will go decidedly to the Dems; with Hillary-McCain - not so much.

I think you have a great point, and what we are saying are not mutually exclusive things. However, your premise is that working class voters will automatically back Obama in the general. My premise is why they haven't done that until now, despite all the emotion; and why would they do it in the general? I think it's naive to rely that John McCain will roll over and allow anyone to paint his picture for the voters. And finally, I think working class (or middle class) voters have not voted consistently Democratic since 1968.

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Obama supporters keep talking about this enthusiasm factor and his ability to unite. How you can continue to say that is beyond me. I know how enthusiastic you all are but obama has been unable to enthuse and unify the democratic party. When makes you think he can do it with the country?

Right back at you, swap Clinton for Obama. Same argument, easily as valid. In fact, more valid because Obama has earned the majority support of the party thus far. Also, do you think that all of Clinton's supporters are going to go McCain in the general if Obama is the nominee? All three of you seem to just be floating stuff like this all throughout the thread. What's the justification? Is this more than gut level stuff? Can you back it up?

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We all are talking our gut, you too. its the nature of this thread. All we have is guesstimates on how the voters will react in the GE. All we have to back it up is our experience and our judgment.

I live in abject poverty by choice so I don't have to work much. I have 1 year of college. I dropped out to pursue my intellectual, spiritual, and psychological goals on my own terms, at my own direction. When I work its often in factories, assembly lines, construction sites, day labor. I get along and I know the people who work there. I've been watching these contests since Carter. That doesn't mean I'm right, but that's what I base it on.

http://www.census.gov/prod/2003pubs/c2kbr-24.pdf

50% of the population have no education beyond high school. That's who a candidate has to win in the GE. Not all of it is swing vote, some is black, other minorities, and evangelicals. That's the demographic that has been moving back and forth giving the presidency and the congress to the republicans or the democrats. There's a lot of polling data on the so called Reagan democrats or the white male swing voters I've looked at over the years.

You're speculating too. I find it interesting now and then to toss around our speculations and the reasoning behind them. If you don't want to do that why are you responding? At any rate, we'll see who guessed right down the road.

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Hillary is not going to unify the country but she can win. She's been preparing to win. That's why she got into the senate and onto the Arms Service Committee for one.

Obama hasn't been preparing. He's hoping to win of rhetorical skills and Hope and Change. He should have waited a few more years. Built up some national security credentials in the senate. Had a nice chat with Wright and explained why he had to leave the church. Separated himself a few years.

I watched Gregory's round table after the speech. Everyone loved it. But only one, Scarborough, the politician, said his numbers in PA keep falling. He knew this speech wouldn't reach the common man. They'd only see a couple of tiny pieces of it. And they are racist. Did you see the polls on Ferraro? Most in PA think she was right. Politicians have to know the common man to win. It was a good speech. Shored up his base enough to probably win the nomination. But his numbers keep dropping. We'll see. That's my guess.

I don't think these voters will automatically vote for Obama. You're the one who says they will vote on issues, which certainly implies that they would vote for him. (Since Obama's and Clinton's views - in particular, on the economic issues that are liable to dominate in the general - are so similar, how could they support Clinton, but then choose McCain over Obama?)

But, as I've said, I don't believe that voters are issue-oriented. And indeed Obama is likely to lose many of this group to McCain. But he's also likely to get voters that Clinton can't. All I'm saying is that this kind of analysis - whether based on past elections or on this year's primaries - has very limited predictive power at this point in the race. What I think matters right now is that Obama (so I believe) has room for growth, both because of his abilities and because he is still new to many people, while Clinton is too well known to gain many new converts. So I rate him as generally more electable.

The main point is that I don't think the kind of analysis you've given in your post, no matter how astutely done, can be convincing to someone who believes that Obama is a stronger candidate. The available data simply don't go beyond suggestive, and are nowhere near conclusive.


Thanks Sam! The problem I am pointing out is that Obama has chosen NOT to define himself as a candidate of issues, except for the war. He is running on a risky strategy and so far it hasn't worked for him with the critical consituency. Without working class, latinos and women, we will not win the White House. If Obama couldn't take them from Clinton, why on earth do you think he will take them from McCain? We keep talking about Clinton's baggage, negatives, etc - and yet she keeps a stronghold on these voters. McCain was never a First Lady, he doesn't have the same kind of negatives, he is in far better place to peel even more from Obama

"If Obama couldn't take them from Clinton, why on earth do you think he will take them from McCain?"

Lalo, I think I'm starting to get your argument. My first reaction to this was, "Doesn't it apply equally to Obama's voters?" But you seem to be saying precisely that it doesn't: that Clinton's particular constituents - "working class, Latino, and women" - are more likely to flip to McCain than Obama's would be. (In the case of working class voters, you point to Kerry's losing them in 2004.) Do I understand you correctly?

If so, I can only disagree on the facts. Or, rather, I can only say that I think the actual situation is much more subtle and dynamic. Upscale white voters might well switch to McCain on the security issue. A-A voters and young voters are liable to just stay home. And independent voters - which certainly make up the largest block of swing voters - could easily switch as well. On the other hand, Obama has been able to appeal to many members of each of the constituencies you mention, even if he hasn't sealed the deal. He tends to win new voters when he campaigns, and is still new to many, so he has more upside potential.

In your original post, you wrote "there is zero evidence Obama will be able to achieve [a] majority (except for the ever-changing polls)." Frankly, I had to laugh at this; it's like you were saying, "there is zero evidence, as long as we discount the only actual evidence." But I think your point, with which I agree, is that polls cannot be trusted at this point. But the reason they cannot be trusted is that the situation is still highly fluid. And that's just why this style of deterministic analysis is unconvincing.

Hillary takes initiative and re-frames the national security issue from a Republican face with a Democratic face. The thinking being that the Republicans should not be allowed to monopolize the issue.

We clearly have different ideas about "framing".

The "framing" of a question is defining the perspective from which a question is answered, defining the elements and criteria that matter. See the wikipedia article on this for a number of examples.

In that sense, Hillary didn't "re-frame" anything. Putting herself into the frame, especially in a way that doesn't actually work for her at all, isn' t re-framing in the usual way the word is used.

She's adopting the Republican perspective on the question in every way, and only to attack Obama because that perspective doesn't work for her in the slightest. Again, imagine the "teapot" ads that McCain would run, ads that she's handed him on a silver tea platter. Or just imagine the 3am ad with McCain's picture in it -- it works better for McCain against Hillary than it works for Hillary against Obama.

On the other hand, Obama's re-framing of the issue really is re-framing. McCain couldn't adopt the "judgment is what matters" frame. It redefines the perspective on the question in a way that doesn't work for McCain at all. (And Hillary couldn't adopt that perspective either, for that matter. And neither could Bush. And neither could almost anyone on the GOP side.)

Obama doesn't just adopt the Republican frame and try to put himself in the picture, he discards and riducules the Republican frame and substitutes a new frame, one that resonates well with voters who think the Iraq war is a debacle. Which is a large majority of voters.


Perhaps you are right, another word might be a better choice. I tried to explain what I mean in responses to several comments.

Precisely. Clinton hasn't re-framed anything. She's put herself in the GOP frame. These bizarre assertions that she can win their game by taking the first turn don't make any sense and have no historical basis of which I'm aware. The air is awfully thin in this thread.

You keep repeating the same thing over and over with nothing to back your assertion: "My premise is why they haven't done that until now, despite all the emotion; and why would they do it in the general?"

Hillary is still in the race; maybe they prefer her right now. What does that prove? I voted for neither Hillary or Obama. Doesn't mean I won't vote for one of them in the GE.

Your argument can be changed to : Can Hillary win in November with only 10% or less of the black vote?