Reader Posts

« previous | TPM CAFÉ READER POSTS HOME | next »

Meeting Ségolène Royal "would not be good for her image," said the advisor.

The idea of a female American president is one which Democrats overwhelmingly embrace, regardless of whether or not they agree that woman should be Hillary.  While many who are critical of Hillary's triangulation are subjected to accusations of misogynism, one can only wonder about Hillary's own record in supporting other female politicians.

The opportunity did present itself, but once again, triangulation took precedence over this historic opportunity.  Senator Clinton would not see candidate Royal, the first serious contender to the French presidency.  As explained by the Daily Telegraph,


But the main problem, said the advisor, stemmed from Miss Royal's association with the Hizbollah official, who denounced the "unlimited dementia of the American administration" and likened Israel's foreign policy to "Nazism".


After initially saying she agreed with his "analysis of the role of the United States", Miss Royal later condemned the remarks and said that they had been mistranslated.


"Hillary, whose investiture is far from assured, is very vigilant and cannot afford the slightest false move. She does not want to be associated with Royal's recent remarks. It would not be good for her image," said the advisor.


Indeed, there was controversy of the neocon-esque genre, except that the article goes on to say:


However, Jacques Lang, [Royal's]special advisor, confirmed that meetings had been scheduled with Kofi Annan and Ban ki-Moon, his successor as the United Nations Secretary General, as well as the Democrat presidential hopeful Barack Obama and the former US president Bill Clinton.

Regardless of the political controversy, Barack Obama clearly earned the points for feminism while once again, Hillary earned another checkmark under the Ivins triangulation checklist.

I eagerly await the accusations of misogynism for writing this blog.


Comments (22)

Hmm. Not talking to foreigners. I worry this has less to do with her as a female politician than with her setting herself up to have a unilateralist's attitude. And this seems to be a pattern... Hillary as the diplomatic exceptionalist.

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/dramatist/

Indeed, I was loathe to open the entirely separate and much larger Pandora's box you point out.

It seems like most in the press are, too. Though you're right, regardless of whether or not she wants to be perceived as a unilateralist, and whether or not that has something to do with her gender, she should still go out of her way to meet with female political leaders in countries we are allied with. Not meeting with her means you perceive dangers in meeting with women - and I'm not sure I want someone answering the phone at 3 AM who is that paranoid.

PS, I don't think you were being misogynist. I think it is a totally legitimate thing to question.

avatar

Have you given this story much thought? The reason I am asking you this is because this story doesn't make sense.

Now think about this; we have a politician who has scheduled a tour of the U.S., she has a meeting with the past secretary of the U.N., the current secretary of the U.N., a past president of the United States, at least one senator, Barack Obama, and we do not know who else. These tours take months to prepare, countless man hours of work, consulates have to be notified and have to prepare, the state department has to be notified, diplomatic passports issued, dinners planned, agendas to be decided upon, issues to be discussed settled and more details to be ironed out and figured into these tours than you can imagine. So what does Ms. Royal do? She cancels it because she can't secure a meeting with ONE senator. Does that not sound odd to you? Does it make sense to you that she would cancel meetings with important personages such as Kofi Annan and Ban ki Moon and Bill Clinton because Senator Clinton couldn't meet with her?

Then we have the date of this story - December 2006. Neither Clinton nor Obama had announced their candidacy for the office, so meeting with Ms. Royal would be like meeting with any other senator or representative in the U.S., shake hands, get the picture taken and move on to the next office. When she did visit the Kennedy School of Government in Feb. 2008, why didn't she meet with Senator Obama then? Do you think it might be because he wanted to distance himself from her and her failure to condemn Hizbollah in a timely manner? Do you think it might be because Obama was trying to distance himself from her politics, after all, he has written to the U.S.ambassador of the U.N. asking him to condemn Hamas and reiterating his complete and absolute support of Israel as well as his surrogates campaigning in synagogues explaining his loyalty to Israel. Is Obama triangulating in that case? Is he trying to avoid meeting Ms. Royal to position himself with voters? Do you suppose he avoided meeting with her because it wouldn't enhance his image to be seen with a "socialist and Hizbollah supporter"? Should we assume ulterior motives or think the worst about Senator Obama? Why wouldn't he meet with her in February of 2008? He could have offered her his support now as well as in 2006, couldn't he?

So then you claim that Clinton doesn't support female politicians, and how you arrived at that out of one story you found on the internet makes me wonder about your own ulterior motives for publishing this story. Have you heard of "Vital Voices" an organization she started with Albright which discovers, supports, promoted and finances female candidates for political office all over the world? Have you neglected to notice that she spent a good part of her life promoting and defending the rights of women and children? You condemn her for one story that you don't even know to be true because it quoted one "advisor" whom you don't even know exists.

You know, it isn't the misogyny or the sexism that I find most bothersome, it is the damned pettiness and complete lack of generosity from both campaigns that they can't allow themselves to give either candidate any credit for any accomplishment the candidate might have had and pin their disdain and contempt for the candidate on the most ridiculous, stupid and inconsequential allegations that have absolutely no meaning, no relevance and no importance at all. What is most depressing though, is that people will believe anything at all if it fits their perceptions, their prejudices and their biases about someone else.

I'll admit I do enjoy playing Taylor Marsh. So sue me.

As for the story's legitimacy, just Google "Hillary Segolene snub." There are many reports on this.

avatar

That wasn't even a very good deflection. You're wrong and displaying an intellectual shallowness and unsophistication. What a shame.

Coming from you, I'm flattered. As Terry McAuliffe would said about his campaign's attacks on Obama's fitness, "toughen up."

We will most likely cross paths again, BevD, in this forum which is TPM. Just remember this is all politics and not about us.

avatar

No, it is about you when you post something like this. This article is stupendously stupid and doesn't make sense and I think you know it. Anyone can see it which is why you chose deflection instead of argument.

p.s. It doesn't matter how many reports there are, it still doesn't make it correct. I read your posts because I really do think you're sincere (or trying to be) in presenting your reasoning and arguments, but you forgot skepticism and logic in this one and you made a mistake in posting it before you thought it through logically. No one blows off a meeting with the dignitaries mentioned in this article because she can't schedule one with a senator. That would be stupid of her to do that.

I'm sorry, but I'm not quite sure what you're insinuating. Are you suggesting that these stories are completely fabricated or that Ségolène Royal wasn't completely on the level?

If the former, are you also suggesting that they've been post-dated? In case you're interested, here's one from Reuters.

avatar

You don't understand what I wrote? How many different ways can it be explained?

Ms. Royal plans a tour of the U.S. She has scheduled meetings with at least three important personages. Now, it takes months for aides, consulates and embassies to plan these tours and schedule these meetings. Months. It is not like calling for a doctor's appointment, schedules have to be meshed, agendas and talking points agreed upon, the length of the meeting, whether it is a private or public meeting, who will be present, who will not be present. whether photographers will be allowed to take pictures, or reporters allowed to ask questions, what will be on the record, what will be off the record and where will the meeting be held. Then transportation has to be arranged, and who will pay for what, when and where. Lodging has to be found and then agreement on who pays for what, again. Of course, there's the matter of dinners, luncheons, breakfasts, who will attend, where will they be held, will the consulates or the embassy be involved in arranging these and to what extent are the French and U.S. governments expected to be involved in this tour at all. The U.S. state department has to issue diplomatic passports and verify that security is provided. All of the things I listed are but some of the details involved in planning these tours. The planning costs money too, I might add.

So all this work is done, all these manhours spent in arranging this tour, and Ms. Royal cancels because she can't get a meeting scheduled with ONE senator. Now does that reason really make sense to you? Or do you think that maybe something else is at play here for a politician to blow off meetings with the secretary generals past and present of the U.N. and god knows who else? Ad absurdum, indeed.

Then we get to the crux of his claim - that Clinton IS the real misogynist because she had no meeting scheduled with Ms. Royal but Ms. Royal did have a meeting scheduled with Senator Obama (which we don't know to be true either) who is the REAL feminist. He bases this claim on the argument that Hillary Clinton is not "supporting" Ms. Royal by meeting with her, and therefore she is non-supportive of women politicians in general. He offers no evidence other than a meeting that was never scheduled in the first place, which to him translates into misogyny and sexism. This however is untrue, because not only does she support women who seek political office, she started an organization that actively seeks them out and promotes their candidacy.

So what do we have here? We have ad absurdum making a claim that upon examination of his arguments falls apart and it falls apart because ad absurdum didn't exercise due dilligence in reaearching his arguments.

So here is some advice on how to form arguments to support your claims, when your sources are newspapers:
1. Don't believe everything you read, in fact, don't believe anything you read until you yourself have researched it. By the time a story makes print it has been revised and tortured by at least three people.
2. Ask yourself if the story makes sense, if what you know fits the basic premise upon which the story is built.
3. Consider the sources. No matter how good or reliable a reporter you consider the reporter to be, if he is using unnamed sources he is hiding something. The reason he is hiding something can be good or bad, but nonetheless, he is hiding something from the reader. The reader needs to ask why.
4. Watch how they use the words "advisors" or "officials" or "administration members" - an advisor can be anyone from the person's housecleaner to his spouse. An official can be anyone higher than an administratve assistant and an "administration member" can BE an administrative assistant. ALL of these people have motives for talking to the press.
5. Reporters can be wrong, and they often are. Like everyone else in the world, they are bad, good or indifferent to their jobs, they have axes to grind, they have ulterior motives and career moves they want to make, they don't hear something correctly or they write it incorrectly or they simply misunderstand the story. They're humans.

Unless I'm misunderstanding the article, the election was in April of 2007. So I'm not clear what you think a meeting between Segolene Royal and Barack Obama in February of 2008 would've accomplished. Would you mind elaborating on your thought process here?

avatar

First of all there is no confirmation from Obama's staff that there was a meeting at anytime, whether in 06 or 08. Secondly, if ad absurdum's point is that Obama is the real feminist who is willing to meet with Ms. Royal, then he could just as well have met with her in 08 as in 06. But he didn't. Whether he meets with her or doesn't meet with her, has nothing to do with Obama being a feminist or a misogynist and to make those judgements based on whether someone is scheduling meetings or not is really ad absurdum.

Ad absurdum's claim falls apart, because he based it on faulty arguments. The newspaper story is nonsensical (no matter how much he despises Clinton the story still has to make sense) and he did not exercise due dilligence in researching Clinton's committment to the support of women entering the political process.

(Frankly, in my opinion, neither candidate should be meeting with a "socialist" during a campaign run because morons in this country will point to it and claim that democrats are commies and socialists (not that there's anything wrong with that) involved in a worldwide plot to kill god and enslave the populace. I don't want to listen to that crap for a few news cycles, do you? Politically at this time, it would not be a good idea, but this is just my own personal opinion.)

avatar

I think the word is "misogyny" but your post definitely does not fit the bill of either misogyny or misogynism.

The misogyny is all Hil's -- she is a self-hating male-identifying female. Kind of like a self-hating jew with a nazi fetish. Twisted. Disturbing. Rather typical in the Queen Bee.


Clinton wouldn't meet with Royale because she wasn't one of the big boys who could help her career -- and because of her Queen Bee narcissism.

Misogyny - I stand corrected.

Sarkozy reaped benefits from his trips to the US and photo-ops with conservatives. Hillary denied Segolene that opportunity. Barack Obama was willing to meet Segolene, showing support for the female French presidential candidate.

avatar

This post is rooted in pure ignorance of international politics. As a permanent resident French National, I can assure you that your support for one candidate blinds you to make an argument that is not based on any attempt in understanding the dynamic of foreign relations.

The underlying reasons for Senator Clinton not agreeing to a meeting with Segolene Royal is solely related to the political background of the French presidential hopeful candidate's statements, most notably on foreign policy. It would be politically impossible for any American presidential candidate to have a stance on Middle East that would mimic that of the European progressive left parties.

Another unavoidable fact is that Ms Royal is a highly ranked official in the French Socialist Party. A party that advocates levels of government intervention that are contrary to American free market principles. And last but not least, the French Socialist Party still has a long-standing alliance with far left parties such as the Communist Party. Anyone remotely familiar with American political history would know that it is unconceivable for mainstream politicians in this country to be in any way associated with anyone advocating anything resembling communist ideology.

A little research can go a long way in explaining the intricacies of meetings with foreign politicians.

No trace of misogyny in this story, simple political principles as usual. Not a very mature way to position an argument.

Thanks for the lesson, in spite of your presumption of my ignorance of the most elemental aspects of French politics.

You could have saved your unnecessarily pedantic explanation to instead clarify why Ségolène Royal was untouchable for Hillary but not for Obama, as documented by the article, in spite of all the intricacies you mention. You describe the Socialist party as being too radical for any American politician to engage, but the article states that Mme Royal had meetings scheduled with Barack Obama.

I may be blind, as you presume to know, to my candidate, yet you need to bother to read the article before attacking.

avatar

My intention was not to be offensive or condescending, however I will admit to having little tolerance for matters that appear to be devoid of any investigative qualities.

I did read the article, as you seem to doubt I did, still, I am unsure about the veracity of the evidence mentioned about scheduled meetings between Segolene Royal and Barack Obama. There were none I could find. I generally like Jack Lang from his time as the Minister of Culture under Francois Mitterrand’s presidency, however I would take his assertions with a grain of salt. It is also important to realize that at the time, Segolene Royal was still a leading candidate in the French Presidential Election and making her look presidential by creating high profile meeting with foreign dignitaries of high moral standing was part of the PR game.

That being said, It is also important to understand that in the Winter of 2006, Senator Obama had not officially announced his desire to seek the Democratic Presidential Nomination and a meeting with Ms Royal would not have been given the same significance as it would should Mr. Obama had declared his intentions.

Nevertheless, it appears generally clear that a meeting between any American presidential hopeful and a high ranking member of the French socialist party, whether it be Clinton or Obama, would present real political difficulties and be subjected to criticism by the conservative forces. Unlikely that Mr. Obama would expose himself to such likely scrutiny at any time during his campaign.

If you can read French, this is an article that implies no meeting were ever scheduled or agreed upon by the Obama campaign in a recent trip to the to MIT in Cambridge, MA by Ms Royal (an indication that seem to give credence to my explanations):
http://www.lefigaro.fr/politique/2008/02/08/01002-20080208ARTFIG00403-royal-fait-sesclassesa-harvard-et-s-attaque-au-ps-.php

Also interesting to read brief comments (in English) about Segolene Royal attending an Obama rally:
http://artgoldhammer.blogspot.com/2008/02/spin.html

Please know that there are no personal animosity or disrespect on any of my comments, I simply rely in critical thinking and investigative qualities, unfortunately your post did not seem to have engaged in enough of either. Your conclusions appeared overly simplistic and that is what I reacted to.

Now to place things in a different perspective, I voted for Ms Royal, even though I find her deeply flawed in many respects, which would indicate that my political beliefs are very much in agreement with what would be described in this country as Liberal Progressive.

Thank you for the Le Figaro column. Its caustic style reminds me of my own, which I may have unleashed rather excessively in my response.

I am having trouble with the skepticism over the Telegraph article, especially since there are other sources for the same story. Mme Royal's subsequent participation at an Obama rally was well after her unsuccessful presidential campaign and not in any way germane to this discussion. Sarkozy got his campaign photo-ops, Mme Royal would have benefited from Hillary's.

I also have trouble with accepting Hillary's alienation of a French Socialist Party candidate. The French Socialist party is far from being some pariah organisation. During the 1990 Summit here in Houston, Reagan and Socialist President Mitterand were the two heads of state who walked in front, deferentially followed by Thatcher and the rest of prime ministers. The Socialist party, and especially Mme Royal's platform, is often criticized for being much too centrist and disconnected with the left.

So Hillary's problem was Middle East foreign policy. The differences are clear. She states she will not talk with certain entities, Obama says he will, whether he agrees or disagrees with them. He is on the record for advocating talking with Raúl Castro, Hugo Chavez, and Ahmadinejad, so I doubt he would have been afraid to be photographed with Ségolène Royal.

My point, which I thought was so obvious that I did not articulate it thoroughly in my original blog post, was that Hillary, the dream candidate of historic feminists such as Erica Jong and Gloria Steinem, could not put politics aside and stand next to the first potential female French president, and it is for reasons you yourself mention, she will not risk the right wing attacks for it. Like Le Figaro, I view such behavior cynically.

avatar

I believe you raise a set of issues that are politically related based on the context in which they occur. I will try to address them individually:

1- Domestic Political Environment

It seems undeniable that the nature of what is viewed as politically viable positions, even for Democrats has dramatically evolved ever since we have been under the governing ideology of the Bush administration. However what has not changed since the start of the Cold War is the stigma associated with anything remotely close to communist ideology. That, in my opinion is an overwhelming burden difficult to overcome for any liberal progressive candidate. This leads us to my second point.

2- Head of State vs. Candidates

It is substantially more delicate for a presidential candidate (declared or hopeful) to meet with influential individuals whose political affiliation could lead to intense scrutiny. As it is, the health care reform proposed by Senator Clinton is being called Socialist Medicine in highly critical terms. This, by any means, is hardly a bastion of socialist ideology. In a similar spirit, Barack Obama has been declared the most liberal US Senator. Here again and by any standard, the Senator from Illinois does not carry a revolutionary progressive agenda that would have the rest of the world believe he is not any less of a moderate than his opponent.
In such a context, one can imagine how meeting with a foreign politician whose social agenda is far more progressive than what we are willing to tolerate from our politicians would be received.

As a Head of State, such meetings are an entirely differently matter, they are part of foreign diplomacy and placed in a far more acceptable context, even when controversial. In the specific case you mention, although the only official meeting in Houston in 1990 that I can reference was between George H.W. Bush and Francois Mitterrand, and not Ronald Reagan, these were all Heads of State at an official summit. Indeed a very different setting from a literal and perceptive point of view.

3- Europe’s Social Democrats and Foreign Policy

You touched on this yourself. European Foreign Policy towards the Middle East has historically been vastly different than that of the United States. In trivial terms, pro-Arab sentiment, especially sympathy for the Palestinian cause runs much higher in Western Europe than it ever would in the US. These fundamental geopolitical and philosophical differences are not considered viable in the mainstream political environment of US foreign policy. Support of Israel is paramount and unwavering. Compound the naïve and relatively controversial comments Ségolène Royal had made about Middle East foreign policy with the differences mentioned above and one should understand why this issue alone made a meeting too politically hot and controversial to handle. Unfortunately, if that is how you view it, this will trump gender solidarity any time.

With this in mind, my belief is that it does not seem unconceivable that Senator Obama might have had second thoughts about meeting Ms Royal, depriving her of an elevating political opportunity. Just pay attention to the criticism his campaign is receiving for allegedly not being as fierce a supporter of Israel as the other candidates are. If his foreign policy advisers are being questioned as it is, imagine what it would have been after meeting with the head of the French Socialist Party whose concern for the Palestinian plight is voiced with a lot less restraint.

I can’t say that I was either surprised or disappointed for that matter by Hillary Clinton’s lack of a transcending gesture of support.

Principled ideology and intellectual integrity would have us believe that milestones such as women gaining acceptance as world leaders is a cause worth being supportive of and In the end Ms Royal did not get to meet with either Senator. The political landscape in this country would not have made it viable. That’s another topic entirely or maybe we’ve thoroughly digressed and that is in fact the issue you had initially raised.

Cheers.


avatar

I also wanted to mention that Le Figaro is a right-leaning newspaper/online publication and that the cynical tone of their article had no other purpose than to depict Ségolène Royal's trip to the US as inconsequential.

Croyez-moi, j'en suis vraiment au courant et j'aborde toujours la lecture de dite publication bien conscient de cette tendance de sa part.

I appreciate your contributions. Most people are much too immersed in the day-to-day headlines to attend to such discussions, but the opportunity of having one is what draws me the most to TPM as opposed to other less wonky sites.

I admit that I realize my need to better articulate that which appears obvious to me but not necessarily so to my readers.

Cheers likewise to you.

Post a Comment

Inside Cafe



Cafe Features


October 6-10

Book Cover

October 13-17

Book Cover

October 20-24

Book Cover

November 17-21>

Book Cover

December 1-5

Book Cover





Book Club Archive



Masthead

Editor-in-Chief
Josh Marshall

Site Editor
Lila Shapiro

Intern
Claire Wilcox



Subscribe to TPMCafe's feed.
Subscribe to TPMCafe's reader blog feed.

Advertise Liberally
Share
Close Social Web Email

"To" Email Address

Your Name

Your Email Address